FROSTPUNK RAP BATTLE - Faith vs Order | Dan Bull vs The Stupendium 

I'd have to say I like how you went back 8 months just to put this message up, and hail the New Order.

I think that Faith side had better lyrical composition and delivery from a technical view, but the substantive meaning of the Order side was more compelling and powerful (though certainly not kind) if seen through the eyes of someone in that world.

FOR THE ORDER! DOWN WITH FAITH UP WITH OBEDIENCE

So does this mean that Minecraft is pure Order, and Lego is the embodiment of faith?

@@chinmustache6420 you know too much good bye

Hey Shut up

@@Qircore its kinda to late, its been 6 months scince that comment

@@Qircore whatever you say, princess

@@16psycheasteroid82 just messing with y'all lol I'm actually a really nice guy in irl

@@Qircore k

At least order is productive. Religion brings nothing but stagnation and decay

Umm.. Yeah

@ThePassiveChicken Well it starts as standard government. Guards as police, prisons to keep criminals locked away. Propaganda is where it starts getting a little iffy, but you run the city as a dictator either way, so it's no big deal

At least order is honest about itself, but faith means that there's a heaven to go to afterwards.

Game wise, Religion is really good for stopping hope drops and discontent rises with sermons and the permanent boosts from temples and houses of prayers. Order is good for helping stop protests. However, later on they both become similar deadly forces. Executions, beatings and on and on. I do like that Hope is no longer a problem however.

We love the final result of our collaboration and we hope to work with Dan and Greg in the future as well! :)

@@11bitstudios That is great to hear! :)

@@11bitstudios yeah it is

@@11bitstudios If you make another Frostpunk game or Frostpunk inspired game they would definitely do a great job with promoting it.

The end of both is pessimistic, with the causes of Faith and Order no longer existing to restore hope in a better tomorrow but instead serving themselves, the transformation from a cause meant to inspire and comfort to one only committed to keeping the people in line, crushing hope in favor of devotion or obedience.

Yeah, I love those details

Agree therw

in the first part of the chorus also has that detail. the preacher in the middle of the stained glass is the looks like the captain in the posters in the first chorus. the second chorus is just a much more noticeable detail.

The church glass? In the second part it turned in to the founder being publicly executed with the chains around his wrists in the other two windows, showing him being a saint and a martyr for his couse. Maybe I didn't get something, but yea, the posters did turn from motivating to big brother is watching.

@@jekabsojarsulskis9740 the first one was "our captain guides" and the second was "our captain sees"

Yes, exactly. The first verse represents the good part of both Order and Faith, where Faith unites people and guides them towards a higher purpose, and Order protects people against threats and unites them in work. The second verse is when they devolve into dictatorship/theocracy respectively.

Good eye

Good eye mate

the second church stained glass is actually the orderly leader being chained by the church goons, but the worshipping leader as a god would be a good idea

both of thoes are extreams, and sadly YOU MUST chose one of em. but i never noticed back than

@That Guy from Britain It's pretty much humanity in a nutshell, refusing to die just to say 'screw you'.

@@justtherabbithole2577 you right if not ask to the glacial age if we could survived in a frozen world.

@@edwintrinidadperazacaraban4650 an Ice age yes but if the sun really is cooling then it is futile struggle just a matter of time, human perseverance can only take you so far

weird crossover thought but i just read the third book in the Mistborn series by Sanderson, and, without spoiling too much, had to think of that specific line A LOT

For me it was, "No measure of faith will keep you warm or sate your appetite." Both are really good, hard hitting lines.

For me it was how could a benevolent god subject us to such events

@@JaxCarpenter-uz1prits such a goddamned raw line

The funny part is in the game the faith creates more efficient workers for a load of professions (medical tents, artisans, preachers) and order just gives better resource extraction rates (wood, coal, and metal). I also think that I would rather live in a theocracy than a totalitarian regime.

@@anonymousguy720 I’m atheist so I never choose the faith one also I like The whatch tower design and nothing ever beats the patrol boost

Dennis van der Werf his hat be sick tho

Stupes sounds nicer so in my opinion he has won

A) Nice joke. B) Correct.

I've worn that type of hat, it's way warmer than a hood.

This isn't Team Fortress 2. Cooler hats don't always win.

Yeah I think that line really wins it for Order. There's no rational argument against it.

​@@TheStapleGunKidI do think there is. First of all, the statement itself: "every second each of us has spent, completing public penance could've been invested putting up the tents" is a very stupid thing to compare, because not only is public penance useful as it rehabilitates criminals. It also compares two things that aren't meant to be compared. Setting camps isn't really comparable to public penance. A better argument would be comparing imprisonment to public penance where one imprisons people while the other rehabilitates them I still like the lyrics but saying that it's somehow the winning line and that there's no argument against it is kinda weird. TLDR: 1. Public penance is useful as it literally rehabilitates criminals making them productive again, while discouraging others to do crime. 2. Public penance and "setting up tents" is a dumb thing to compare in the first place.

​@@Toinkityprisons rehabilitate people without poisoning their minds.

@@vbnv-oz8bj Oh boy, we have an edge lord. I get it. It's annoying that your parents woke you up to go to church all the time as a kid. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Okay, so I was originally just thinking we were talking about in-game mechanics. But if we're going by real-life prison, then that really depends on the prison, isn't it? Cuz there are a lot of statistics that back up that prisons often don't give much of a crap in rehabilitation, and although rehabilitation might be good in some countries, it definitely isn't in most countries, especially in a fictional setting in frostpunk. Recidivism is far too common, and most drug abusers that are put in prison only roughly 15% of them actually recover from addiction. Meanwhile, public penance (aka poisoning their minds), tell criminals and offenders to apologize to the hurt parties and to God and are given the chance to repent from their misdeeds. Now, this method obviously has a lot of flaws, but I find it dumb to completely discredit its utility, especially when the world is set in frostpunk, where a belief of a higher being is probably far more effective at keeping people in control without the use of force. The fact that God is fake or not is irrelevant when the teachings itself aren't even harmful in moderation and just equally as harmful when compared to order if things become fanatic.

@@vbnv-oz8bj”poisoning their minds” makes them easier to control, which is practical for a setting where the phrase “if one if us falls out of line, we all do” is the truth.

I mean it helps that the studio that made the game sponsored this :P

It was an EU policy. So states have 2 years to enact a law that represents this policy, they have always some wiggle room but it musn't be too far from the original text.

Cant believe that shit pasted.

Article 13 is what you get when you have people that don't know how alot of these sites work in detail start trying to pass laws to "regulate" it. They just don't realize how much publicity the movies and or games they make can get off youtube and other sites, they are potentially cutting their own profits down with this move

Because, why think for yourself, when you can stupidly parrot the alt-right that is howling against the EU and everything it does, including article 13?

Joy?

I liked stupendiums first verse

Will all the collabs be rap battles?

I’ve been waiting literally years for this collaboration... and it was worth the wait 😻 Can’t wait for more collabs from you two artists! And obviously Dan, it’s because Cheltnam does not accept defeat.

Lol

@Quodlibeta Except the theocrat will freeze because his belief has a weak impact on reality, while the jackboot survives by optimizing the people for the betterment of the entire colony.

@Quodlibeta Part of that is because they aren't meant to last forever. We design stuff so it's easy to tear down if we want to build something new on top of it. If we wanted to we could build something that lasts hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, but we don't because that would be way more expensive and would be more difficult to replace with something even better later on. They built their stuff that way because they didn't have modern knowledge and technology and because they were planning on their religion lasting pretty much forever. If anything that is indicative of how religion causes stagnation rather than advancement. Such as how Christianity caused technological and scientific stagnation if not outright regression in a lot of cases for over a thousand years. In a situation such as Frostpunk, the only way to survive is with science and technology. As much as religion likes to claim miracles are possible, faith and superstition alone will not protect you from the cold or keep you from starving to death. No God or Gods will come save you. Only the hard work of Humans can ensure your survival. However, that is not to say religion isn't important. Some people really need it because the thought of dying and that truly being the end as they cease to exist scares them beyond belief. I know it certainly scares me. Personally I want to live to see the end of the universe, if not even beyond that into literal eternity if possible. However, religion is technically not necessary for survival. Personally, I believe all gods and all other creatures from all religions actually exist in a nonphysical realm, but they have little to no influence on the physical world, and _humans_ created _them_ through their mass belief and worship of them not the other way around. But who knows? It's irrelevant either way. Besides, most gods are stuck up, arrogant, self righteous, assholes with overly inflated egos and massive and undeserved superiority complexs anyways.

none of your business So basically how gods are created in Warhammer 40k?

@@spacemarinechaplain9367 Sorta but not really, I guess? It sort of depends on which gods from Warhammer 40k you're referring to. The Chaos gods weren't created so much through belief as they were formed from the collective thoughts and emotions of every living thing in the galaxy. I don't believe the collective emotions of every living thing on their own would actually create anything let alone anything that powerful given they would completely lack direction or coherency. If you're referring to the God Emperor of Mankind or possibly the Eldar gods though, then that's quite a bit closer of a comparison I guess. Sorta weird to think about it like that, honestly. Then again, certain things in Warhammer _do_ seem to resemble what I personally understand about real life metaphysics in _a few_ ways, just exaggerated to the point of complete and utter cartoonish ridiculousness and twisted and corrupted until it becomes unreasonably nightmarish, though it is very much it's own thing in a _lot_ other ways. You sure as shit aren't going to use any metaphysical realm for FTL travel in real life like they do in W40k. That's just not how things work. FTL travel is a physical thing and thus needs to be solved through physical means. And psykers aren't a thing. Or well, to be more accurate _everyone_ has psychic abilities it's just that you're never going to be shooting lightning from your fingertips like people can in stories or in movies. Maybe after a lifetime of dedicated practice and meditation and stuff you *might* be able to make a pencil slightly wobble abit, or maybe even make it roll across a table assuming you're particularly talented, but you're not going to do much else beyond that. Well, unless you die and decide to stick around in the physical world as a ghost or something for whatever reason but that's a whole different topic. Anyways, I believe what I believe -- whether I'm right or wrong -- and everyone else believes whatever else they believe. To each their own.

There’s no denying that

Let's settle this in a Scrabbull

Agreed.

Yes

Stupendum the one who leads the faithful And dan the one who orders with the word of law That sounds like an awesome campaign

Also make it to where the gods are are ambiguous at best or clerics and paladins are power by thier own Sheer Belief to muddy the waters further

@@the_protectorof_smols3563 So like Ebberon, it's said in that world someone could manifest divine spells from belief in their shoelace if they truly believed it could grant them divine spells. Perhaps both followers of Order and Faith could manifest divine magic, Order as a sort of 'Will of the Law' justification, Faith believing it to be literally divine.

@@paulmahoney7619 yeah kinda like that but remember that the belief has to be wholehearted and sincere otherwise your own subconscious will probably fuck up your ability to cast hell you can use that as a fucked up way to test for spys and "nonbelievers" if you felt so inclined

How is the campaign? It's been 2 years and I'm kinda curious at how things go.

Nate Rod that line is fantastic.

But order route has prisons that inprison people for 3 days while public penance just hurts some people.

@@Alexl23l273 thats same thing, i say the religion one is worse because they are hypocrite, pretend to be holy then burning people alive

​@@Alexl23l273 order is direct raw and absolute while faith feeds people lies to keep their hope up. faith is against progression of humanity while order will progress no matter what since higher motivation keep people efficient and compliant the leader will decide to go that way if he wants to stay in power without having to deal with rebellions.

​@@haruki4kPlaying the devil's advocate here as I do believe there isn't a single objective or better route, in my opinion. But I do believe you severely undersold Faith. What you said makes sense in the surface, but in the end, it seems rather biased is it not? Faith, despite it being a lie or not, is still helpful, not just for hope, but for passively maintaining order, trying to redeem and rehabilitate sinners rather than just imprisoning them, using church sermons to have some form of unity, where everyone isn't just "trying to survive" but rather "trying to reach a higher purpose" and that God is with them, these lies are synonymous to Order's propagandas, they use the same tactics in order to gain some form of unity and I fail to understand why you didn't address that. And let's try comparing these two to real life examples. Think of athiests nations that are highly authoritarian like North Korea, is North Korea the epitome of human progress? And I know a lot of irl theocracies are bad, but seriously, if full blown zero religion order does progress, then how come a lot of thriving civilizations today have at least a hint of faith in them? What about in history? Has there ever been an ancient civilization thats doesn't have religion in it? It doesn't because Faith has always been an integral aspect of keeping people together, it's a precursor to a lot of healthy civilizations that thrive. It's often needed when times are tough because people need to be somewhat illogical in order to keep going. And that despite the low chance of surviving the cold winter, the people are still hopeful and neglect all reason choosing to hold on due to belief. That's why a lot of nations and states that are completely athiest usually either crumble due to public dissent or just have to double down on their authority completely making their people feel misserable. It's easy to scoff at Faith and religion's usefulness in today's society where everything is handed to us, but the effects of faith and hope is very useful, especially in a lot of grim situations like Frostpunk where the people require really high hopes and unity and not just threats in order for them to work.

That's actually a very interesting idea like if you choose order (my fav to go with) there would be like a group that doesn't agree and they split from the main group and starts up a new city and basically goes to war with your city and like it's like who wins, who lives longer.

@@codexoflols9515 oh and because of the cold you can only really fight each other using ether automatons modified to carry guns or another steam punk war machines that are costly.

@@Mamorufumio bro we just came up with a new DLC idea

@@codexoflols9515 sounds like it. to be fair i always have been a fan of steampunk tech since i saw movies like steamboy and castle in the sky

@@Mamorufumio I jut recently got into steampunk but so far it's really "cool"

You made the right choice. You will be spared.

All hail the bull

You have "faith"? FETCH THE COILED ROPE!!!

@@andreesapissarra and hang em in the neck until the lesson is learned

No forgivance for giving attention to those worthless sermons!

Finally the people realise the truth of the god-emperor

=][=

worship that corpse all you want

to spite the skies, is it supposed to mean like make the sky angry so the warmth comes in?

@@m00tes more like order will push humanity forward towards survival against all odds, fighting against the cold that falls from the sky.

Ariel Cahn the choir is singing yes but it’s more of a both sides point of view with the whole beginning line of “morning gathering or evening prayer” talking about law choices you can make if you choose order or faith

That's the chorus. It belongs to neither side.

"Against elements precious seconds each of us has spent Completing public penance could have been used putting up the tents" That line got the order winning to me

Brill Dan's clap back would be epic 😅

🎵 so come on out to the outer worlds 🎵

@@josh5811 There's ample opportunity, so help yourself!

@@h0rnet601 it was so good

*roles up in a truck*GET IN WERE WIGHTING A DISSTRACK

I think this would be closer to two villains having a sing off.

@@killerhellhound not villains- they are 2 people who know that the extremes must be done to focus the people for the day the generator is destroyed or goes cold is the day the city and its occupants die May it be by the word of faith and guidance to bring hope and prevent morale from falling Or may it be the path of order and law that focuses the people and keeps them in line and keeps the peace In such a case like this the extremes must be taken if anyone is to survive

@@thecrtf4953 the generator will survive if you replace the heat core instead of saying nah its fine and let the generator to broke down badly

Boo

Nice. A much better joke Dan I can come up with.

Same. Works on my stellaris playthroughs weirdly. Even though all my stellaris playthroughs are post-apocalyptic

Wdym by that what changes?

@@lilstarjester3927 Go onto the second chorus. The Church glass transforms into people following the priest instead of looking up towards the light, and the posters change from "Earn your bread" to "Make your pledge", multiple of them do, and 'Disloyal' can be seen written on the wall with blood.

@@redlord1660 okay thank you (:

@@lilstarjester3927 fuck you

@@redlord1660 or like when the guards turn from holding the lanterns with a "peacekeeping" pose to holding guns with agressive pose

the chorus is amazing,, it game the chills

This should be very helpful for any one that is still deciding on the side they chose, good job.

THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!

Well I mean look at religious extremism. They act all nice and everything but as soon as a wrong thinking threat looms over they throw all that away for the meantime until they enact Their Crusade against the heathens.

I think that's how it works on the game as well, neither side is good and both can be pushed into murderous controllers with a firm grip on their followers and people

@@CallMePoyo stick with the Ark, it shall bring you the light of hope

I've played all of them, and the ark ends right before the storm sooooo, maybe not

@@CallMePoyo aw... but that is the perfect ending for me

@@steve6646 I see, well it makes sense that as time goes by faith becomes more important, and little by little a new cultural civilization is born through it to the point that order begins to serve faith, as it was in this way that our ancestors paved the way for future generations. though this process did take a long way i agree with you on what you said. I guess the way i meant to make my point was that this situation as presented by the game takes place in the very first years of the founding of this new london and so when in the middle of grievance for the life of confort that people lost, to make a stand and work together through order was the best they could to survive as there was much to be done, and the captain actually managing to do that would be a miracle itself. And yes the line of Dan about falling out of line could be applied through unity through faith

Our intelligence is the difference. In no way should liberty go out the door just because life around us has gone to shit.

@@DTfan43 You can't free yourself of your need to eat.

@@DTfan43 Then you can die on street from hunger but be free tho :p

@@skell6134 If you think oppression is necessary, even in the worst of times, then you will be no savior of mine. At no point is dehumanizing someone worth it. Shit, just open a history book and see for yourself.

At the end, Id rather have extreme order

@@robertcampbell3019 same

think long term order is likely to be the least damaging to humanity after the storms pass faith faith is a poison that shall take many generations to fade. once the biting chill subsides and the new summer comes order will slowly crumble.

@@mr.j7444 I think while that is possible, history has shown that order (roman empires extreme powers) arent always done away with after the fact, that sometimes power isnt easily surrendered. In all honest, both sides have merits, but a governing body should be formed from all ideals and one goal - survival and betterment of its people. On their own, neither has longevity nor quality of life after the winter thaws, balance must be created and established in stone.

@@ShockFist faith resists balance rome fell and no longer holds sway outside the ideals of freedom it developed. but the vatican stands as an international body with immense power to this day. the path of order in frostpunk isnt good correct but thinking logically its the better for humanity after the winter passes.

holy shit yeah

honestly if frozen was more darker this probably would happen

Ha, didn't notice. Though it is something thst Stupes would do.

Looking closer, is he the goggle-boy at 3:57? In Dan's audience?

@@cobaltCarnivore Yes that is him as well. Only notice it my self on my 5th or 6th time watching it. Makes me wonder how many times he's done it in past videos and I've just completely missed it.

Got the notification for the Stupendium upload, and then went down to the comments and followed the link here.

You could say there are DUAL purposes!

@@danbull Come for the raps, stay for the puns.

It is... Put on your Dansonn shoes!

Prayer and psalms get you nowhere here. Take heed, but take no pity, for the city must survive.

Bah, screw the sun, we'll just drill for more coal and crank up the generator so it'll glow like our own little sun.

God has given him sight, RUUUN!!

“Shelter from the storm” was also the name of Stupendium’s frostpunk rap

@National Christian Front that's the thing, they don't. They are victorian era low class workers, some of them probably doesn't know how to write. They simply can't understand the stakes, or refuse to understand.

@@marks7484 or they don't want to die while the people ordering them to go work in horrendous conditions aren't risking anything except their jobs "we're trying to save the world" is all well and good but they have families that they need to feed who will starve and probably freeze if they die and stop getting paid. they're not trying to stop you building the Generator, they're trying to *survive* building the generator

@@NotBamOrBing here's the thing, like i said, they don't understand what's happening above them. I TOO don't wan't htem to die, and even when i comply to their ridicilous demands, there is little progress with the generator, motivation is low, and sometimes, it forces me to make decisions that WILL kill people. I get your point, but it still is clear as day that these workers don't have even the half of the picture...