Dyno testing the same set of fuel injectors in throttle bodies and end of trumpets. bosch ev14 980cc, 200hp 4age, outboard injection Merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age @Garage4age @garage4age
Have talked to a few people re results in this video. Some theories were, the modern fuel injectors being used here already do a good job of atomizing the fuel, over older styles. Manifold temperature; the intake in this test is very well insulated from heat, runs cold at almost all times. spraying into a hot manifold may benefit from change of state cooling along with general cooling. Also to note; engine ran a bit richer with the injectors in outboard location, possibly a better fuel mix. i corrected the fuel ratio before doing the test. Also had a little play with injector timing over a small range with no effect. Since there wasn't any fuel stand off issues I thought this would be the case. Edit: seems every 2nd question is asking about the injectors not switching off on overrun. simple answer is, i had tuned that feature off at some stage and seems to never turned it back on, so dont worry its just a tick of a box away
As atomizations: That doesn't seem to play a role. Change of state cooling is a bigger issue, as is mixture at full throttle. Mixture at idle is where the prblems start, but also at throttle response. This is only prevented on downdraft applications, or at higher injection pressures. Fuel puddling is the main culprit.
future video: put the fuel injectors back in their normal location and use another fuel rail with some dirt cheap fuel injectors strip the filter baskets and plumb the fuel rail with 50-100psi compressed air from your work shop compressor. injected ram air controlled by the ecu lol.
I imagine with ITBs controlling ingoing air velocity and being sealed against the block that not a whole lot can escape against the inrush air current, and with fuel only pulsing on the intake stroke there is no waste spray to get loose.... But just a guess
@@jasonv9951 as someone who has used standoff injectors before I can tell you that fuel does escape. Not much but it does. The intake pulse causes some droplets to bounce off each other. I even moved the injectors futher down the ITBs trumpets and it still did it but only very small amounts.
@@tristynleetl either that or it's intentional. Even I sometimes dislike some videos accidentally but immediately notice it upon lifting my thumb. I doubt it would unnoticed.
this is still hidden as a trade secret. it's hard to get information... today I'm a little different. what we did 20 years ago, others were still playing in the sand, some only discovered today...
I was curious too because I’m assuming the only benefit from hanging the injectors is for the cooler charge air effect which is why I constantly see carbs making more high end power gains over injection. I’m assuming this is why Indy series motors run this setup because they are trying to squeeze every bit of HP from their motors with the strict rules. I wonder if we would see the typical % power increase or more if it was boosted to capitalize more on the cooler charge effect or would boost disrupt the spray pattern too much to see any benefit?
@@enchantedwenis4994 in Motorsport standoff/shower injection benefits in the higher rpm range. The injectors hangout cause it allows the air to mix more effectively when air speed increases in the rpm range. You'll usually see power gains with more aggressive cams and port designs and also high compression engines.
interesting that them just being in the way does not restrict CFM breathing. (but it must do) so i would conclude the inlet isnt the worst breathing part of this engine.
Good shit man! I've done the same test on a bike. The throttle was delayed down low, due injector timing, and the physical distance. Benefits of top mount; cooling as you said, and more time to tumble and mix, making a better bang and boom. Remedy for yours is; Bump up the fuel pressure as high as you possibly can, makes for a better mist, lean it a bit more than standard location. And last and obvious, find injectots with acute spray angle and more granualar. Everything you're doing is awesome!!!! Keep it up. If you can build an airbox that ingulfes the whole throttle body and bolt it to the head.
Thanks. The fuel pressure one has been suggested quite a few times, may give it a go at some stage. Engine in this vid will be going on holiday for a bit, after a few more vids. a near stock engine will be going in its place to test some more experimental stuff..
Lovely work, but you need to use a narrow angle injectors to reduce the wall wetting of the runners. All the puddling fuel on the runner walls are causing your vehicle to run leaner when you first open the throttle and richer when you close it.
If there are two rows of injectors, one row is responsible for idling at the original position, and the other row is used at high speed at the front end of the ITB. Is this feasible?
@@devis592 , look up "skoda felicia rally." This is the only engine that I could think of at the moment using that setup. According to my memory, it gave them an extra 15hp out of a tiny pushrod 4 cylinder. That is a decent increase if you ask me!
I'd love to see single primary diameter vs stepped primary headers! Awesome content you have here. Another interesting thing would be can WMI increase power on an N/A car that's not otherwise knock limited at all
I have a few header test vids on here, some stepped. from tests ive done, seems to me the the step needs to be of a fairly decent size, to have an effect. which will give a bit more top end. but will significantly reduce low end power as the rest of header will be too big. But i want to do some more testing on this in the future, see how small can go out of head without restricting top end
This channel is so cool! Staged narrow angle stand off injectors for the high rpm range will see a better gain. But really only a benefit for very high rpm engines.
Your fuel pressure regulator adjust fuel pressure relating to the manifold pressure. By having the injectors in the wrong side of the throttle body at normal atmospheric pressure, effectively you're dropping the pressure difference across the injectors by 14 psi at idle. My tip is remove the fuel pressure reg vaccume line and run max fuel pressure all the time and tune to that. Cool video it was very interesting. 👍🇭🇲
2 injectors is usually a solution to full power requiring bigger injectors that can't run the engine smoothly, or stay within emissions at low throttle or idle. You don't see it frequently anymore because injectors have gotten better. It's not so much the extra injectors that gave more power, they're more a symptom of more power.
This channel is so usefull in doing all the testing that none of us have the money or time to test ourselves. You sir are the man! Appreciate all your time and efforts!
Thanks for sharing. I was expecting bigger difference, but it is what it is. Perhaps your normal setup is so well sorted out it’s hard to make any significant gains with simply fiddling with shit.
awesome work bro Thanks what i ever though about this was the best is to use both location low flow rate on the throttle bodies for low torque and response then you place high flow rate outside the trumpets but.... working 2 fuel injectors banks can cost a few compared to a basic one i drived newer injected cars where the injectors goes on the intake near the engine head and my actual car is a old one too, where it does use a old fuel ECU , placing a giant fuel injector on the intake hole, outside. and i feel that too , the response is a damn thing... more when do you use an N/A engine so now i am getting parts to work over an newer eletronic injection compared to yours the issue is : theres none ITBs i know would be compatible with my car lol
The Yamaha R1 uses both inboard and outboard injectors, inboard injectors are used most of the time, with the outboard being used alongside the inboard at high RPM(when the variable intake is in the closed position). And at high RPM full throttle outboards are only used IIRC.
Injectors are huge over 4x what you would need. Fuel injection on production cars works like this: fuel is sprayed on the back of the closed intake valve that is hot and evaporates the fuel witch then mixes well with intake air. Atomization is not important. Injection from such far away from intake port should be better but not easy to tune and use. On worm up is worse and probably at low revs and loads. It would work better in a hot intake that is bolted directly on cylinder head.
Engine Masters did a very different test that yielded similar results: Horsepower differences between Carbed manifolds and Carbed manifolds w/injectors in them. The carbed setup made more power everywhere, due to fuel vaporization and lower IATs. Goes to show that carb specific manifolds and EFI specific manifolds are two very different things and they cannot really be intermixed and yield similar results!
Another Excellent Video!!!! Lots of practial knowledge....... 3 Thumbs UP! ;) "Decel Fuel Cutoff & 2 Stage injection" It would be "What a Rippa"........... Love Aussies!!! Kevin Thornton (Extrudabody)
Great stuff! However, if you pump up the fuel pressure you will increase atomization by a lot. Anyway, lovely 16V! Sorry, I see you have a lot of fuel pressure comments.
And another thing. While having injectors inside, their angle and direction makes difference. Some injectors are pointed in the direction opposite to airflow, but I think it's only in forced induction, because it could slow down the flow a bit in n/a (i think)
Brilliant video. Obv' with forced induction the cooling effect should be more. Love to see that tested too. I'm contemplating mounting the injectors on my new turbo setup further away than usual up the runners (its got long runners) to see if I can gain something from cooling, but I don't want it to drive like crap at part throttle. Hmm...
Here's a brainstorm idea. Two sets of injectors. One in the manifold for low rpm driveability and one smaller set up stream for added fuel and charge air cooling when turbo psi is up. Or control them by throttle position. Just a brainstorm idea.
turbo 14 that’s a thing, it works, look at the Ford Sierra RS Cosworth RS500s, they had exactly that. Four in stock place, four in the back wall of the plenum firing down the runners
More modern sport bikes do it also. With a 16k redline they come on around 8k. I believe the normal set of injectors doesn't shut down at that point, just stays at a reduced duty cycle.
In Sprint Car racing they run two sets of injectors. one just below the throttle valve, the other is in the head directed at the intake valve. This way they can have it lean enough for part throttle, & fat enough a WOT. they are running Alky
I saw an article in a Performance Fords magazine done on Glenn Seton's EL Falcon Supercar, it had a similar setup. In the interview Glenn stated the power gains were significant from utilising this type of setup. From memory the photographs showed the injectors were standing quite a way out from the inlet trumpets too, not even inside them. I guess if you're finding a few horsepower in a small engine (by comparison) with a jury-rigged setup and a bit of playing around, then a no expense spared race-prepped 5-litre V8 with a fully professional setup dyno-tuned to within an inch of it's life would see horsepower gains that were in fact "significant". Idle and low speed behaviour isn't really an issue in a V8 Supercar, lol. I've also read about some engines that run staged injectors - smaller port mounts for idle and low rev tractability and behaviour, then a gradual switch over to larger trumpet throat mounted units for high revs and full power use. Best of both worlds, if you will. There's plenty of aftermarket ECUs capable of running dual injector setups, it probably wouldn't be that hard to build a similar setup to stage the injectors. Something to think about anyway.
"... the injectors were standing quite a way out from the inlet trumpets too, not even inside them." My first thought was that the injectors were too close. They were probably interfering with airflow a bit.
Ducati used outboards on the 998,but they were a lot closer to the TB. A lot of bikes use 2 stages though, normal position for low rpm and all for high rpm
Look at a sport bike intake. My 2016 R1 has velocity stacks that move depending on RPM, and 2 injectors per cylinder. One at the end of the velocity stack and one near the bottom of the intake runner. Good enough technology to make 200whp at 1.0L
Just a thought, but the situation would be different if instead of ITBs you were running this setup with a large plenum and single throttle body. Because in the setup in the setup in the video the injectors are infront of the throttle plates. Whereas with a plenum and single throttle body, the injectors would be down stream of the throttle plate. So when at idle, the fuel would be being sprayed in to the low pressure "vacuum" of the manifold; the fuel would vapourise more readily due to the low pressure. I had a 2007 Honda CBR600RR and that had a pretty cool setup where it had a set of injectors pointed right at the inlet valves, and secondary injectors up in the airbox pointed straight down the velocity stacks.
Well both ways are effective if you on a round course where you can stay at high speed and rpm the before injection is your best choice but if you run hillclimbe or Star finish then you go better with after or direct injection
Awesome so interesting. I know it’s just testing but in the itb, you could see 2 shoulders up from the butterfly choking the air flow a bit. Also, seeing how the injector squirts out fuel like an old garden hose. I wonder if different injectors would be better to atomise them fuel better, or perhaps a ‘multi-jet’ type injector that does several mini squirts that might keep the fuel atomised more. Anyhow, great stuff. Ps I always wondered whether ceramic coating the combustion chamber fully would increase efficiency and hp….for a future rebuild? Cheers
This is an amazing video to show people why polished ports are a bad idea, if you keep things slightly rough or dimpled it collects fuel and more evenly disrupts it.
In my case too much money for the gain. as would have to upgrade ecu to control it properly. I can see how it would be worth doing in a race car situation, trying to get that last little bit of power
This makes me curious of what could be done to an old mechanical injection machine. I see potential for a long intake pipe and pre throttle injection simply injected into the intake, giving time to atomise and run without complex changes to the motor. Simply doing some sort of physical delete to the mechanical injection and setup a basic EFI system. Now I really want to try it.
You could avoid fuel puddles if you remove the ridges between the different intake components. That's certainly what causes the engine to run richer with injectors outboard. Fuel accumulates,is sucked in while being liquid and not vapor,so it burns less well,and is dumped on the O² sensor,indicating rich. Fuel is supposed to evaporate partially when injectors are external Depends when you check the AFR : on the whole run including idle (wich is supposed to be leaner if fuel accumulates in the intake) or at peak power ?
Hi yes will revisit it at some stage. the intake pipes were just thrown together for the test. idle was fine, normal afr even though it looked like it should not have been with all the fuel floating around. part throttle rich when said fuel was sucked in as throttles are opened. once this cleared at wide open fuel ratio was back to normal throughout the midrange. top end got richer, (7000rpm onwards) this wasn't due to fuel puddling since well cleared at this stage. i assume from better fuel mix and more of the o2 being burnt.
@@Garage4age I don't get it. If it gets richer on the O² sensor,it's because you have more unburnt fuel in the exhaust,not because you have better combustion. A good combustion/fuel air mix wouldn't let unburnt fuel in the exhaust. Can't it this top end richer could be caused by bad harmonics in the air pulses ? When you check fuel stand of,cylinder 2 spitting back its fuel,wich mean,its air too. less air could explain a richer top end.
If there is a better burn for the same amount of fuel /air there will be less o2 left over, which is what the sensor is measuring. So less o2 will show as a richer afr. So yeah if you have really crappy combustion it will read leaner on the o2 sensor. most of the standoff you see is on the rev limiter or very close to it, went lean well before this.
@@Garage4age i get it, more efficient in same conditions = richer, because less O² is showing in the exhaust. But since injectors are outside,and fuel evaporates very easily, could that contributes to get more 0² in the exhaust,simply because not all oxygen was used during combustion,some fuel being evaporated ? I get it that the dyno show better results,so it's more efficient,but can it be simply more efficient because of the mixture quality,while you loose fuel by evaporation ?
The fuel doesn't just disappear when it changes state though. So pretty much all the vapour would end up in the engine. Since not hanging around long enough to float away
Try the forst method of position from the injectors for the secondary Injectors is very common method on the hi level cars here in European FIA Hill Climb Masters
I worked on this engine(15y ago). an extraordinary experience. my friend, I see that there are defects in the intake runner . there are many more details you can meade and that would bring you a lot of performance. it is better to use a modern injector as type DEKA, use Textolite | Textolite Hgw 2082 10mm an isolator to relieve the engine head temperature of the ENGINE intake
Injector timing was the same on both setups. I think it was pretty close to were it needed to be, as didnt really have fuel stand off issues other than right at the end of the run on the limiter. A few people suggested I try different injector timing anyway, which I will probably revisit at some stage. As want to try a few other things. One thing I noticed is it seems like its changing the effective runner length with the outboard injection. Guessing due to moving fuel along with the air changes the reflection speed. The power curve lines up with dyno runs using a longer length runner than used here
That's Great what to u doing . I have plans to make itb's and airbox from BMW M5 on volvo b5244s2 but on A fabric ECU and fabric sensors. Maybe will works😆 if not than put some ECU master😆😆 i will show it on youtube😎
Hi Buddy, Very interesting. It would be really nice if you could run a test with 2 sets of injectors, main set back at the intake port and an outboard set of smaller injectors to be activated only at WOT. The outboard injectors would mainly be used to cool down the charge. If you could take a look at your phase diagram to see if injection is properly timed with the intake valve opening cycle. That might help in reducing fuel stand off .
Hi, yes that would be ideal. unfortunately my ecu cant do staged injection with injection timing on each group. only has 4 injector drives. standoff wasnt really an issue. looks like it in the down throttle shot. but the camera is very close to the end of runner and fish eye'd. the shot from above shows some standoff at high rpm but is mostly on the rev limiter
@@Garage4age Hi, thanks for answering. With 4 injector drivers, perhaps you could sacrifice a bit going from sequential to batch injection mode. People comment that the loss is negligible in some cases. If you use 1 driver for each 2 injectors, you can drive 8 injectors. The question would be if your module will accept independent control for each set.
@@sergiogranato5562 batch fire staged is no issue. but using batch fire may end up with fuel standoff since cant adjust injector timing. Yes in most cases very little to be gained power wise with sequential. especially if not running very large injectors. tends to help at low loads more.
4th gear. The rpm is at the top of the graphs. when get around to sorting out the tach signal, maybe able to get rpm on the real time plot as well. Im running into a slight driveline issue at top of 4th hence the realtime gets a little messy
I can see there is a lot of fuel running on the alu tube. If you make this surface rugh then you can have a small gain..it gives a better feul evaporation.
Awesome, did you end up turning off the fuelling on deceleration on your ECU? looks like a fire hazard if idling for a long time...I used to run a second set of injectors on my megasquirt, though that was a boosted setup so they were enclosed...
I run DSFI (Duel Staged Fuel Injection) on my 2.0 race engine. I have AT power direct to head throttle bodies with one bank of injectors positioned right by the head and the 2nd bank right at end of trumpets like you have done. I use a progressive transition low rpm fronts and as revs go up it fades out and rears kick in. I do a 90r/10f % at WOT (wide open throttle) past 5500rpm. I've seen b2b we get 11bhp more and 14lbft torque due to better mixture. Your issue is injectors are too big. Use 440cc or 470cc
Wow, that's a lot of added power. This makes me want to do the same with my 3sge. Wonder what a realistic power goal should be. Would 250whp be asking way too much?
if you have a big budget you should be running both setups in a sequential config normal position primaries for low revs and partial throttle and stad off secondaries for high rpm power
I love that most peopel wont even bother testing. But you do which is really awesome. Can suggest any new injectors for a stock 4age bigport bluetop(i know bluetops are smallport. But i have big ports? In my ae86)
Bluetops are bigport. then redtop bigport. then red/black top are smallport. (engine in vid is smallport) then they went 20v head with silver then blacktop. If stock engine and ecu best stick with stock injectors. could be a good idea to get them cleaned and tested though being pretty old
Man I love all your testing Your the yoda Richard holdener But ....🤔🤔🤔 what if you wire the outboard injectors Parallel to regular after tb injectors But with a 3800 rpm window switchs But really gained not enough and I'm guessing the fuel mileage is running down your fire wall lol No smoking in car with ac on 💥🔥💥
Running the injectors outboard gives a good visualization of how much air flow changes at different RPM and how much it actually backflows. I feel like this is a good argument for variable cam timing and variable intake runners. This also make me wonder how much lost potential is in an engine like this. The endless balancing act of tuning everything to just the right rpm while matching flow and pressure waves. Not sure if that was clear, so what I mean is that you may have your exhaust and intake turned perfectly for 7500 rpm, but other variables, perhaps your engine would be happier at 8000 or 8500.
I spent a lot of time getting the intake right for the best compromise. In this video it isn't quite right, as had to shorten the runners to fit the injectors. If you compare it to a stock engine it starts making more power from 4000rpm onwards. stock engine would be lucky if it makes 90kw on this dyno. Yes agree with the variable cam timing, This engine should hold peak power till 9500rpm if had my vvt setup on it.
Wow i saw 150 and i was like oh yeah buddy 150hp is pretty good at the wheels for an n/a 4age then saw 150kw and i was like whoa nellie i wasn't ready for that that's bananas! Great motor! Only watched a couple of your videos, what mods does this thing have?
Bit of everything, Aftermarket rods & pistons, arp hardware. oversized valves and port/chamber work. 300deg cams, valve springs, shimless buckets. about 13:1 compression. rest bolt ons. a lot of time testing and getting it all to work together
I would like to see if the injector position made a difference in AFR. If it does affect AFR retuned to the same AFR as baseline, and then do dyno run to see if there is a difference
