I have never seen you fire hollow point projectiles from the 45-?? family of cartridges. How impactful is that hollow tip shape to the accuracy of the sharps at various ranges? I wonder if a hollow point, at the 1-20 tin-lead allow will perform well considering the added penetration from the hardness. What are your thoughts on the use of alloys that include antimony?
when I was a young boy, my cousin had a high velocity air rifle, and if we shot soft lead pellets, they would disintegrate without hitting the target. we always assumed it happened outside of the barrel, because of the supersonic velocity and the soft lead. Is that the correct assumption or does the pellet come apart before it even leaves the barrel? I assume something similar would happen above 500 m/s like you mentioned in the video
@@davidcahill4670 Hi David, I do use hollow point bullets from 1:30 and 1:20 alloy for my 45-90 1886 Winchester. I also have a hunting round for the Sharps. It is just perfect for European big game. I use Lyman's hollow point 45-70 bullet. Antimony is usually not liked by casters. Tin alloy more uniformly with lead.
I use to have a Pedersoli 45-120. Mine had a full octagonal barrel. It was the Quigley gun. Very beautiful rifle. I bought it to hunt moose with, but the Iraq war started and for the next 10 years I was part of it. I was using 535 grain bullets and they kick like a mule. Good video, thanks you to make it.
There is a very good book “The 45/70 At Two Miles”. It’s about the testing the U.S. Army did before making it the official cartridge of the Army. It goes into detail about the elevation requirement and time of travel. It’s online so easy to find.
Nothing can be obsolete as long as it works sufficiently for the job. And this shows it perfectly. As every time an excellent researched and explained video, thank you for your work.
It is always good to remind people that 10% ballistic gelatin is less about accurately representing human tissue, but better understood as a repeatable scientific medium with which to extrapolate some data about potential tissue damage.
There are much superior custom-made dummies that set fresh raw bones in ballistic gel with surrogate fluid-filled organs, rubbery tendons, air filled lungs, etc. "Spare no expense" type stuff like you'd sell to a medical college. There's a famous brand name but I can't recall it at the moment. They were >$1500 apiece when I last checked, so I suspect they are entirely intended for government and corporate research ballisticians. The things we know, we picked up over time. The FBI's 12-18 inches of penetration through clothing standard came after a series of bloody shoot-outs revealed that the .38 Special was in fact a marginal cartridge - sometimes it went deep enough, sometimes not. Sometimes the hollowpoints expanded, sometimes they didn't. It didn't like sheet steel car bodies, and the hollow points failed more often in winter due to having to penetrate multiple layers of cloth and denim before hitting flesh. Today we know that velocity is king, and rapid controlled bullet destabilization (after a chosen level of penetration) is the mission. A 5.56 or 7.62mm rifle bullet which penetrates into and then destabilizes inside the thoracic cavity will instantly kill a human basically 100% of the time - the supersonic shockwave suddenly exploded inside that delicate sealed bag bounces off the back of the ribs and ruptures both lungs and generally stops the heart and rips the aorta and vena cava off even if the permanent wound channel doesn't hit it directly. This is why there is such an emphasis on "center mass" for human targets - if the bullet works as designed, it is an instant humane kill.
Excellent. Thank you for clarifying terminal effects, in a day when so much attention is put on "energy factors" and "shockwave stretch cavities." It's interesting how so many contemporary enthusiasts believe antiquated cartridges and projectiles are "ineffective" by simple factor of being antiquated, as if ballistic understanding is only a factor of the last 50 years of science. While there has been much advancement in projectile and firearm capability, the same exact ballistic factors are required to perform the same exact task. The beloved .45-70 today with smokeless powders and strong firearms delivers very similar performance as the black powder .45-120 from very heavy, long-barrel rifles of old. There's something extremely versatile about the .458 caliber.
This video of extremely informative and well researched too. When you touched on the account of soldiers not feeling the pain of being shot initially it did make me think back to everyone I have ever talked to who has been shot, each and every single one describes the feeling of the impact first and foremost. Also, having shot a 45-70 I can already feel the pain in my shoulder just at the thought of shooting a 45-120!
As usual, an interesting and informative presentation. A bison is a tough and hearty beast as are the large bears on the North American continent. The 45-120 Sharps is up to the challenge.
The 45-120/ 450BPE was the 30-06 of its time. The 500BPE/ 50-140 was the more powerful British round that was then adopted by Sharps and American buffalo runners
@@pamtnman1515 an important distinction to note is, the .45-110 and the .50-120 we're almost exclusively commercial hunting cartridges used only for that purpose. Average Joe the homesteader wasn't about to go to that expense just to shoot a deer, thus, the rarity of these big rifles. Punt guns existed too, but had nothing like the popularity of a common cartridge like the .30-06.
@@dangvorbei5304 yeah, I also think the odd cartridges like 45-90, 45-100, 45-110 were likely specially stocked in gun shops as something to fit smaller people.
It's interesting to those of us who load and shoot paper patched 45-120 rounds. Basically it's all about the composition of the lead bullet you cast and swage. Too soft and it expands too much and doesn't penetrate. Too hard and it doesn't expand at all. It also depends on the average distance you are shooting at and the remaining velocity at that point. That said, the 8x57 does just fine on elk, moose and bison with proper modern hunting bullets.
@@0529mpb For sure. C&B makes these skills accessible to people who want to move beyond admiration and into enjoyment of these disciplines. A good dog adds to the experience, though.
According to SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer book the history of the 45-120 is hard to pinpoint. I've read where the late Elmer Kieth had brass that was headstamped from the Original Sharps rifle company for the 45-120. I feel that some rifles were rechambered for the simple fact that some big game hunters wanted flatter shooting and more stopping power such as the case is today. Other observations may very.
I can tell you that when I got shot 3 times, I felt it - severe pain immediately. It reacts differently on each individual. That rifle kicks like a big Mule when the slow motion shot is displayed. The 8x57 round is excellent also, just not on Buffalo.
@@capandball With European ammunition anyway. Here in the US a lot of 8x57 rifles were surplus military rifles of various ages, some with the older .318" diameter bore and some with the newer .323" diameter, and American hunters knew nothing of this difference. Firing a full-power large diameter cartridge in an older gun with the smaller bore would have been disastrous, so ammo for the US market is a very soft bullet fired at a much lower pressure. This way the soft bullet will compress down to whatever the bore diameter is and still not produce enough pressure to destroy an old gun, but the end result is a disappointingly low velocity and often poor accuracy. It's the same reason that US manufacturers used to make special high-velocity smokeless loadings for some vintage cartridges in newer firearms, but then had to stop because some people insisted on loading whatever would fit into whatever ancient gun they had.
Very interesting, I remember alot about balistic performance from dad and all his hunting he would tell me about, and you built on it. This was an informative and relaxing start to my work day.
Thanks for sharing. Your definitely not wrong, fat n slow can still put on the table. Ive been telling that to people for years. I love my 45-110 Sharps and both of my 45-70 trapdoors. Bullet selection is always key.
I am glad you mentioned the subject of pain as an aspect of wound ballistics. When I was working in law enforcement I read thousands of shooting reports and studied the effects of various type of ammunition. What I eventually noticed is what you mentioned about the wounded individual not feeling the pain until after the shooting was over. This WA true for anyone shot by a projectile under fourth caliber in size. However, when an individual was struck by a bullet of fourth caliber or bigger the individual felt it emediatly!
If you will place a 3 to 4 inch thick foam pad under the gelatin block, it will stay in place without bouncing all over everything and you won't need a retaining frame.
If you have a swage press, try making the first half of the bullet with pure lead and the second half with your blend of tin. This will keep the bullet from deforming until penetration. It's been a while since I was shooting, but this was the choice in my Shiloh Sharps 45/110.
I'm not trying to be critical, but the original Sharps Rifle Company never chambered their rifles in 45-120. They did chamber their rifles in the 45-110 caliber. Now you can load a compressed load with paper patched bullets to use 120 grain charge of black powder. By seating the bullet out a bit.
The 45-120, I/e .45-3 1/4”, was NEVER a Sharps factory offering, and it was introduced to late to have been used in the slaughter of the American Bison.
A bisons metabolism is extremely slow and even a direct heart shot can leave the animal still standing sad but true they are similar to turtles, neck shots at closer ranges improved anchoring the beast for easy recovery or like many people did was multiple shots for a fast bleed out, thank you for another great video cap and ball I love them all Joe.
Ive heard larger diameter bullets create cavitation at lower velocity than smaller ones. It would be interesting to see small, and large bullets fired in gel at the same velocity and see if the larger one has more cavitation relative to its diameter than the smaller one.
Love your videos! Your rifle is on my list as my next gun. Have you experimented with different loads for accuracy? Do you think the 120 to be accurate to 30 consecutive shots in competition?
I've owned several 45/70 but none of the bigger ones like 45/110 and 45/120. I do load cast bullets in and bolt action 458 win mag. Witch I guess could be and modern equal to the 45/120. Nothing is as fun as shooting big heavy cast bullets even though there slow. I'm loading mine with unique to about 1050/1100fps. And reloader7 can get you up to 1900fps Ish if I powder coat the bullets. I have watched Quigley down under and becoming him is a bucket list of mine. Nothing would be better than smacking the steel plate at 1000 yards with iron sights or to attempt one of the matches...
Another consideration for hunting game is how much meat will be destroyed. Modern high velocity cartridges can destroy an entire shoulder or haunch leaving the meat blood shot and inedible, while the older black powder cartridges such as the 45-70 and including the 45-120 will conserve the meat, leaving it edible all the way up to the wound channel. This is an important consideration for meat hunters.
That other single shot you use at 19:29 looks like my personal Blaser K 77 Ultra Light or is it a Merkel K2? Also my thought on the 8x57IRS is, that the combination of that projectile with the modern powders is certainly not ideal for bison. These cheap cup and core bullets expand too much and lack penetration, especially on the tough shoulder tissue of a bison. A heavy Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX would be my choice for bison and I believe that the sharp deformed front ends will cause more severe tissue damage at over 2200 ft/sec in addition to sufficient penetration, even at the largest bulls. I also hunt with a cal.54 Browning Mountain rifle which with its certified for up to a 150 grain FFG load behind a 450 grain hard cast bullets. It kicks like a mule and I am sure it would penetrate through a buffalo bull. So far I was only able to test it on large bull moose. Great video as always, thanks!
Great video! I love the 45-120, I have a modern copy that I load with smokeless ammunition. 300 grain bullets at 2850 fps... light and fast I know but the paper dies the same 😂.
@@longtimepittsowner5589 The British .450 Black Powder Express was the 30-06 of its time, basically 1870-1899. The same cartridge became known as the 45-120 in America. Fireform some of your new brass and see if it doesn’t perfectly fit your gun’s chamber. Are you using black or smokeless powder?
Please wear eye protection while shooting, the Sharps sight flipped backwards and the scope recoiled backwards almost to your eye. Interestingly, I just watched the Cinnabar channel prior to yours and he fired a 50-140 cartridge and his shot was low and destroyed the frame holding the gelatin just like yours did. Was your shot low?
Interesting how the ballistic performance is identical or slightly surpassed by modern 45-70. While outside the scope of your channel the FTX style bullets allow for significant improvements in point blank performance along with downrange energy. Still a very useful hunting cartridge with extreme versatility.
@@capandball I wonder how well the gel includes it as it was said that there is distinct jump in properties and penetration when passing through the skin and then internal cavity of the body. And i.e thanks to elasticity of the skin bullet below certain threshold will likely by found on the opposite side of the body under the skin. While it would be still able to penetrate thicker body, it is unable to get through the skin layer
@@longtimepittsowner5589 I've been using the same 3 boxes for over 15 years. However if you're in the U.S., You can call Buffalo Arms in Idaho & they often have the loaded ammunition. I couldn't tell you how much at this moment because I haven't had to buy it in a long time. I expect I will within a couple years though. Don't know how many more loads I'll get on this brass.
I have a Sharps clone in 50-140, I have had it for about 22 years. I reload my own, but I would like to know where you got your primer tool. I press mine in with a modified C-clamp, so, where can i find the tool that you use ? Sure, would make life a little easier. And do you have the problem with the cases swelling, I have some ones that I reloaded a few years ago and they are too tight in the bore. Should I fine sand them until they fit, or un-load them and sand them a little ? Or try and get new cases, which are very pricey.
@@capandball there was a famous elephant hunter who killed 800 of them using a rifle chambered in 7x57 mm Mauser, with heavy round nosed bullets, which were the original, early 1890s load. FMJ bullets don't expand and also round nosed ones have less of a tendency to tumble than spitzer, due to the fact the center of gravity is closer to the front of the bullet, where the forces are exerted so that bullet could just go trough meters of flesh in a straight line. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell When armies switched from round nosed to spitzer bullets at the start of the 20th century, in order to improve both internal ballistics - less bearing surface - and external one - better aerodynamics - it also had a large impact on terminal ballistics, since the new bullets tended to violently tumble tip to bottom when hitting flesh, and also lighter jacketed ones fragmented. Instead of a small 6.5-8 mm wide permanent cavity and the bullet shedding relatively little energy inside the body, one would find a 20-30 mm jagged gouge and almost all energy dumped inside the body.
Hi mate I'm from poland but I live in australia for last 40 years my biggest hunting rifle is marlin 1895 in 45-70 .Big cartrigges like 45-90 are rare even in america as far as I know but 45-120?Those loads are simply not listed in australia but I'm afraid that brass for them wil cost a fortune.Where are you buying them from? cheers
I have never had a problem getting brass for 45-120 (3 1/4") it is/was available from Bertram in Australia, and Norma, and my cases have been in use for many shots over 15 years. So in the end they are not as expensive as people say, stay safe! Chris B.
Remember it comes down to shocking power and penetration ..In Canada the minimum kinetic energy to kill from shock for a white tailed deer is at 850ftlbs at point of impact .So you have to know properties of your bullet at distance and the game you are hunting ..
Please let me know the source for this. The 45-120 is not an express cartridge. 45-90 started as an express cartridge, Winchester's 45-125 was an express cartridge.
@@capandball The 45-120 is exactly the same shell as the 450 BPE (black powder express), which became the 450 NE (nitro express) after smokeless powder. One of the books on the history of sporting arms cartridges will have this information. Right now i am at my hunting cabin, far away from my gun library, or I would get you exactly what you want. The black powder era was the most creative time for gun making, especially the 1880s. Different rifling types, different ignitions, new steels and greatly improved beautiful Damascus barrels, improved reloading tools and gun cases so sportsmen could take their rifle anywhere and make their own ammunition, etc. The explosion in different cartridges by this time was incredible, and many if not all were the result of British firms making their own unique, proprietary rounds. Holland & Holland, Purdey, Alex Henry to name a few were highly productive in this area. When I return home, hopefully with a buck, I’ll respond to your question more directly. I like your videos, I really appreciate the work you put in, and I am thankful for the positive face you put on black powder and antique firearms. Way too many people have “magnumitis” and want to hunt with far over powered firearms, which causes meat loss and an erosion of hunting skills. You are showing these people they can have fun and give wildlife a sporting chance.
@@capandballyou definitely want volume III. It has almost all the brass cartridges starting in the 1860s. You can plot the development of brass cartridges pretty well. I found one error in it that I corrected in my last Double Gun Journal article in 2022. Turns out the .375 2-1/2” Flanged bullets came in an array of diameters. From .370 to .375. I bought a large number of different .375 cartridges and found the average diameter was .373, which is logically why the caliber was often called the .370 …. Anyhow, this story provides insight into the development of early brass cartridges. All over the place.
Gargantuan cartridge, I won’t be buying one anytime soon as with the price of Swiss in the uk at £104 a tub and I only use 60 grns in my 45-70 and 30 in my 1892 Winchester antique.😊
