Thank you Igli. As a woman who went through severe abuse as a child from family members, I know it's 'not all men' but trust is hard still. Seeing you so visibly upset for Sansa touched me. I hope you are well.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. You're here, you're important, and loved. You're obviously a strong woman too! I applaud your strength and wish you well in your life in the future.
As someone that went through something similar in college, it’s traumatizing as hell, even 10 years later. I wished for death so many times over these last 10 years and I’m still in therapy. Love your conversation there at the end Igli, and so many of us had to take a moment after this episode.
It’s the right reaction to have Igli. Like many, I was angry , sad and disappointed in Theon. Thank you for the in depth breakdown and thought. Keep up your hard work. We appreciate it.
Aww, Igli. 😞 We understand. There's only one scene I have a harder time with. You really wanna believe this is the moment Theon will redeem himself, and he let us down.
I was fearful about this episode for Igli because it is, without a doubt, the most vile and, yes, evil scene in the entire show. I felt the same visceral reaction in the moment. That said, glad to hear you're not folding on the Red Woman.
Ehhh don't wanna get into the debate of cruelties, but families were slaughtered, kids butchered... entire generation killed. It's definitely one of the most visceral acts that just made everyone raging angry.
Alfie Allen was absolutely brilliant in his portrayal of Theon/Reek... there have been so many facets to the character, from the smug but skilled ward/hostage with an inferiority complex, to the solid, loyal battlefield lieutenant, to the simpering whelp with daddy issues, to the absolutely broken man who's lost all sense of who he is or was. It's a travesty that he never won (or even nominated for, if I recall correctly) an Emmy for his acting in this.
There is no way to quantify how broken Theon is. He does not have the luxury to think beyond how worthless he is at this point. As viewers we have no stake in the situation, It's easy to rationalize what we think his options are in this horrible circumstance.
Love when everybody is angry that Theon doesn't act but doesn't bring up the fact that Sansa also doesn't act. Suddenly everyone says expecting someone to defend against physical, sexual, and psychological abuse is a horrible thing to bring up and makes you a terrible person. Show Theon is a textbook example why male victims never seek help.
Well, I can tell you that once someone has been as broken, tortured and defiled as Theon, as in the real world, there is no way he would remotely have the courage to step up to Ramsey, to help Sansa in that moment. Besides, even hand to hand, he would not have a chance against Ramsey, nor would either of them get out alive in that moment. Would we live the outcome to be different? Hell yes, but it’s not logical at this point to think of Theon as a coward,not sure there are many who could come back from what he’s been through.
yeah a squire could have easily seen him change/naked in multiple situation, it really proves nothing, i'm afraid it's d&d sloppy writing coming through...
Yeah, Loras was dumb AF here. There are SO many explanations as to why a squire would know about a birthmark on his lord's upper thigh. Like, maybe Loras has his squires wipe his ass. idk. Some diva Lord behavior. Loras reacted like a complete dumbass.
I'll never forget when I was pinned and groped by a drunk guy at a frat party how his friends physically pulled him off, saying "she doesn't want that." I have very complicated emotions about that experience because it was such a moment of powerlessness due to his strength. But I also feel so grateful his friends weren't complicit in his mindset. I read the books so I know exactly how broken and incapable Theon is of independent thought or action so I get why he was too traumatized to move. It makes sense based on his character experience. But regardless, it definitely hits me in fragile place because too easily a bad moment could have escalated into something far worse if multiple guys hadn't stepped in to help me.
Rob's dead because he married Talisa and treated vows he made as a king to his "subject" as something that could be broken. HIs words and promises were now worth less than sheep dung.... and because Catylin let their biggest asset (Jaime Lanister) go. If the Northmen, still held Jaime Lanister to kill if anything went wrong at the twins, Robb would still be alive. But that's just my opinion. Not due to Theon Or even due to the Bolton's themselves. The Boltens saw Robb's army falling apart and took advantage for their own house.
Respectfully, you're overlooking a major fact. The Karstarks were planning on killing Jaime the night she sent him off with Brienne. They only killed Willem and Martin Lannister in place of Jaime, because they no longer had access to him. If Cat hadn't sent Jaime away and the Karstarks killed him, what do you think Joffrey and Cersei would have done to Sansa? And the Starks believed that Arya was with them, as well. Cat arranged for an exchange of prisoners behind Robb's back, that is all.
I’m usually one that is all for holding men accountable for being garbage lol but i don’t think its entirely fair to hold Theon to the same standards that you would hold any other man in this show. There’s so many reasons why he wouldn’t have acted in that moment. Putting aside the deep rooted trauma, fear and his overall lack of identity, he is truly a shell of a man physically and mentally. There is no doubt in my mind this man is malnourished and lacking the strength needed to 1. kill Ramsey 2. make this grand escape (and most likely have to take out guards). I just don’t believe he would’ve been capable of actually taking Ramsey out. “Stab in the back” Are there any knives around? Wouldn’t Ramsey hear him coming? Does he even obtain the strength to break skin or just knock him out? I think it is unfair to not recognize that although it is wrong to simply watch Sansa being assaulted, it is also wrong to disregard the abuse and likely sexual assault Theon has also been put through. Fear rules Theon, he’s constantly thinking “it can always be worse,” because it can be and Theon knows that better than anyone. If he tried to save her, and failed, what would that mean for her? It’s so easy to watch and think “I would’ve done this and this.” But they are truly both victims.
I agree. There's no telling how much torture he endured off screen. He has been absolutely broken to his core. I don't blame people for still hating him for this, but I agree with what you said.
Btw Sansa isn't in this situation in the books, Ramsey marries a girl named Jeyne Poole who was Sansa's childhood friend - they portrayed Jeyne as Arya Stark in order to secure the North. (at the time Arya is still in Bravos and Sansa is still in the Vale)
And the events in this scene in the book is, if you can comprehend it, far worse that what takes place in this episode. The fact that it's not Sansa (or even Arya, who they're passing the girl off as), but a minor character that we saw for maybe 20 seconds in the first episode doesn't diminish the revulsion we feel towards Ramsay and Reek/Theon.
@@bill.godwin-austen I wasn't saying its any less revolting in the book because it isn't Sansa, I was merely pointing out that in the book it isn't Sansa who marries Ramsey, because I think its messed up that they gave this storyline to Sansa's character. In fact I think the book version is just as bad if not worse, considering what we know Ramsey made Theon do. It was a difficult read and this was a difficult watch.
Theon is broken ...has no courage. I absolutely hated that scene when i saw it many years ago. Its the worst of the worst and Ramsey is worse than Jofferey. Its a terrible scene. But the worst is Littlefinger who constructed this marriage for his own gain.
To Igli: I think the High Sparrow may already know or suspect about Cersei's incest. When Cersei refused to marry Loras didn't she threaten Tywin that she would tell everyone that the rumors about her and Jaime are true. So, the rumors are already out there.
I do love the WHOLE Theon story,but Igly said it well,and aside from something happening to, hypothetically my son, sexual asst. And worst things u could do to someone,unfortunately I know exactly what its like and id do unspeakable things to save another rm it
Great reaction & post-discussion as usual..Igli is seriously one of the sharpest reactors I've seen.. Cersei was totally mirroring Tywin when pretending to write and seem busy whilst talking to Olenna, except Tywin was actually writing and strategizing to win The War of the Five Kings or whatever it's called, while Cersei was just pretending..but a small glimpse into how his legacy is living on in some small capacity.. Don't come at me, but go ahead if you must, but the Jaime/Bronn in Dorne storyline is the worst of the series..from the hokey costumes to the super cheesey dialogue, I struggle to see the point of it.. When Arya is playing the game of faces with "Jaqen," most ppl miss it, including me the first time, but the biggest plot twist of the entire series is hinted at in that scene, but it is so cleverly written, all or most people just write it off and move on cos there is little chance of it making sense for first time watchers at this point.. I loathe the Sansa scene at the end and its even worse in the books, but I admire Igli's raw empathy.. "Does Cersei manage to clean house??" Epic. Lol The High Sparrow is a regular Tartuffe! aka religious hypocrite.. That is all and more than enough..look forward to next week xo
i mean don’t be on theon too much with that scene, he is afraid and is clearly mentally and physically fucked up cause of ramsey, it’s not that easy. it’s easy for us to say do something, but he’s broken. they’re so worried about him sleeping with another dude, yet cersi and jamie incest situation…
The ending of this episode is really bad, for me though...that one scene that is still to come (most people will know of what i speak) is still worse. This one is bad though and Theon should've stepped up here.
Don't want to be the one to say it but Theon and Sansa are both abuse victims, but everyone acts like Theon is an ass because he's a man and is "supposed to give his life to defend women". Notice how Sansa doesn't ask Theon for help because despite her anger towards him for what he's done in the past, she understands that he has suffered too much to be of any help. The only person to blame in this situation is the rapist, not his victims.
Ramsay didn't do anything wrong here. Think about it. The Bedding Ceremony is a Westoros tradition. They have to do the deed to solidify the wedding. Instead of 10-15 people watching it was just Theon to provide proof of deed work.
@@FountainWeeper Then she shouldn't be have agreed to the marriage. She was about to let Tyrion do it so she or we can't claim ignorance in this situation.
i agree, as much as it's heartbreaking to see Sansa in that situation, in that environment it was a given that once you got married you were supposed to have a bedding ceremony and then provide an heir... putting the responsibility of the whole situation onto Theon is incredibly unfair
Good point. I forget, did Igli react as strongly when Khal Drogo bedded Daenerys? It's interesting that a lot of people didn't like Sansa at the beginning of the series. To be clear, I HATE that the women don't have any say in these matters.
@arthur- If this was real life, then yes, we should all be upset. Fortunately these are fictional characters. What I don't understand is the people who live vicariously through TV characters and literally cry about this particular scene. Igli having to gather his thoughts made me question his sanity. Otherwise all 3 of these dudes are just virtue signaling.
Imagine liking Ramsay as a character and then this scene happens 😔. I typically like villains, but this was a lot. I will say this scene also solidified Theon and Balish being very low ranking characters for me too though.
