Game of Thrones: Littlefinger v Varys - Battle of Ideologies 

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What if Littlefinger lives? The faceless men played their role while Littlefinger escaped.

chaos isn't a pit... chaos is a laddaah!

Shit analysis, you clearly don't understand what Littlefinger is about. Shame

@@KOWAL19898 Care to elaborate on your analytical approach? ...

Against each other but Varys doesn't enjoy sacrifice.

Bruh

@Jay Blabla12 Aww, too bad.. It's 422 now.....

@Jay Blabla12 Lol, in case you were making a veiled threat; Lame, if you weren't.

@Jay Blabla12 I know but it felt weird and out of place. Anyways, which is your fav House?

THIS. People TRUSTED him and saw him as this like helpful person. "Book little finger, if book littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. He's very friendly and helpful...he's always ready to help." - George RR Martin

Yeah well D&D don't know how to write truly intelligent characters so there's that

That was a grammatical landmine

You need to dumb things down on tv. Plus you can’t teach people how to spot sociopaths. Think of the effects of informed masses. Can’t have that. Lol.

Note that Baelish didn't have his own PoV chapter.

He's not a hero, he's merely the brighter side of the dark coin of power. He's the Jedi to the Littlefinger's Sith. It's only the absence of understanding the terrible nature of power that makes the brighter side of it seem heroic.

By that logic, no one with power could possibly be a hero. How does one help people with the absolute absence of power? This is not to say people we typically view as "powerless" cannot do heroic deeds, but they do so with the little power they do have... and the effects of their deeds are objectively not as far-reaching as those who have much power.

He does heroic work in silence else he would bs killed.. it's like being a little smart so you can live longer than just being a mere hero which killed ned stark btw

So do I.

@@ehsteve231 well said. I have never thought about heroism in the context of a power hierarchy before.

Yeah, it used to have smart writing and characters. By the end, it was basically a medieval Marvel in which various Starks have superpowers.

@Gaius Wyrden nope. Clearly you havent been watching. She was neither good nor evil. She was just Cersei

@Gaius Wyrden the writers fucked up. The books were better.

@@893263007 aren’t all the Starks wargs in the books?

I agree I love stories where it's not always clear who's good and who's bad. Where the characters mortality are ambiguous and there are also characters that only see things in Black and White

palemoonlight96 I'd go as far as saying the only two player in the game

I would count Illyrio, Doran Martell (only books in GoT he was incompetent), Tywinn and Olenna also as players. But Varys and Littlefinger are obvious S-Tier.

Don't forget Tyrion

Not sure a dead man can be one of the biggest players in the game.

I would also say Tywin Lannister was a great player as well. He had the perfect balance of sympathy and cruelty.

Varys doesn't want to get on the Throne. Indeed, he can't - that basically the point in Eunuch - they can't found dynasties. Westeros is already a bloodied, shattered and bankrupt realm, and the idea horrifies him. He argues that Ned Stark be allowed to take the Black. He tried to prevent the war of five kings. And when all seems lost for stability, he brings the Martells and Tyrells onside with Dany, and works with Tyrion (the only redeemable Lannister, in his view).. Machiavelli argued against "acquistare imperio, ma non gloria" - that is, "power, but not glory". Varys doesn't want power, he wants glory and victory for the realm, and he's willing to do anything to achieve it.

I always saw Varys as the wheel for a new order. Even if he work for king i think he can be responsible of the fall of monarchy for another power like an empire or democracy (more likely an empire). It's true he always act for the good but sometimes the good hide and ugly truth. And he hides things (like we never know what become of the sorcerer.) I would even guess he hide his true will to himself. It's funny when i watched that video and they mention that he work for the people, it remind me of Bane's and Donald Trump speech's; "We give back the power to the people". A thing that is also done by Daenarys but she does it for the ego.

The war was basically over… Yeah, just what people said in June 1940 in our world. ;) War in North was brewing without Varys help. Dorne was never going to settle down, even in books peace there is only superficial. Cersei first empowered Faith and then destroyed it with most members of Tyrell's house. AndSeven Kingdoms are twice indebted to Iron Bank of Bravoos. Or maybe even thrice: Lannisters owe money to them, Baratheons of Dragonstone owe them money and probably there is debt dating back to Robert's reign. "Varys does want power - for his goals" Yes, that he does. Because Machiavelli is all about using all means at once disposal to achieve the utmost important goal: peace and prosperity for people of Italy. And ruler that wants power just for power's sake is not a person that will achieve this goal. Same is true for Seven Kingdoms. And we should not forget, that Varys plan to reinstate Targaryens on Iron Throne had started way before Robert's death and that person who started War of Five Kings is no other but Littlefinger.

wildhorse891... uh no.

@wildhorse891 Don't mix !bookVarys with !TVseriesVarys. First one might be Blackfyre by blood, he has shown himself to be Blackfyre agent... ...however, with Daenerys as force of her own he might try to rejoin both branches of dragon blood family.

Chaos is a Larder

I convinced myself that it isn’t “ladder”, is just “laddah”

'Chaos is a ramp'- bran the broken

bro the "DAH" in the end and ur turtle profile pic just smashes hahahahaha wtf

i cant stop laughing :(

"Power is power"

Dat's fuuny

Bran : "Plot is Power"

I still believe little finger is in game and can sit on iron Thrones

@@himanshubhawsar1493 i'm with you on that brother, "Littlefinger would see the realm burn if he could be king of the ashes." his motions are in play

bad writing. Littlefinger would never really care so much about Sansa; his first priority is himself. He would not have died that way in S7E7, and it was stupid. The writers just did not know what to do with his character anymore. The whole end of S7 and S8 were rushed as heck...

Lol

@@MoonwalkerKari The problem are the show runners since they started diverging from the books main arcs.

@@masacatior fax

@@Infammo I'm sure you do think it's "pretty decent". You probably think the same about the taste of yellow snow and crayons.

Nathan Coutinho Margaery vs Cersei is great! If there's any i'll be watching it for days

or Tywin vs Lady Olenna

Cersei vs Daenerys

Margaery=a pawn of her grandmother

@Nathan Coutinho -- Howzabout *Margaery vs Catelyn...?*

I do not believe he wants Sansa to marry Harry the Heir, and not just because of his desire for her. Check Jacob Preston's Prepping for Winter. Littlefinger advises Sansa/Alayne how to flirt with a guy... but this does not lead to marriage, more likely leads to rape. Alayne's taken virginity (or possibility) could buy Baelish more time as Lord Paramount. What he plans to do with Sansa truly? Sansa has a claim on North, small claim on Riverlands... but also even smaller claim on Harrenhall (grandmother Minisa Whent). Alayne Stone being legitimized (only a King could legitimize a bastard, but Sweetrobin loves Alayne... he could be manipulated into taking back crown of Kings of Vale) would give Alayne claim on Harrenhall. Some Starks are dead, some believed to be, but as Catelyn stated, there other heirs. Stark girl married to Vale and her issue married to other strong houses of Vale. And Waynwoods are described as "horse-faced", which should be Stark look. Littlefinger likely knows this. And Harry is ward of Lady Waynwood. Littlefinger will probably make some sort of deal with Waynwoods... to take power over North, Vale and possibly Riverlands.

That‘s why they ruined his character. The real littlefinger would never get killed in a such dumb way. He would never do mistakes like that. Bad writing of D&D Writings was Littlefingers real killer.

Shansha*

How could you factor in magic? Lol

@@missyfrog1 what do you mean lol

@@MrShoopezino I assume bran saw his betrayal and his sister believes him totally.

Sancez Agreed.I hate how show simplified him and his motivations.

Yeah, he's definitely not 'good' in the books. He deforms little children, he's not 'for the people'.

I really like how the actor portrays the character, but it's true that in the books he is much, much more complex

The actor is perfect for him, the writers are the problem.

Sancez agreed

eizhowa exactly that's why he scares me more than lilfinger

eizhowa It is easier to make this kind of video about Varys from the show.There we know a lot about his motivation.But Varys from the books is much more mysterious and ruthless.

Nesreen FS Good point. Littlefinger was largely figured out when he died.

True. Varys' ultimate goal is unknown. How anyone could even pretend to know what he is working towards baffles me. Especially since we don't even have any idea what the voice in the fire said.

to me the difference between the two is little finger admits what he is while varys hides behind the realm for an excuse

There's always the exception though.

Filip Mihailovic Not a true psycho,but I agree about everything else.

Well... That definitely would have been better than what we got!

You should have just wrote the fucking show lmao

Awesomely said but I really like little finger. It isn't a love/hate relationship though.

Fuck the show, read the books! 😂

Adrian Jutronich exactly!

agreed. So frustrating how the character who put this whole series of events in motion as the ultimate mastermind had such a lackluster and bland end. They turned him into a dumbfounded idiot in Season 7

His death was always going to be by Sansa's hands. Martin has already explained the ending of every character to D&D. The path taken by them was stupid. But end was as described by Martin

Raj Khan and?

+Raj Khan I honestly didn't mind them killing him off by the end of the season, they were putting the character out of his misery in a series he no longer belongs to. Think S1 LF, he could have gotten out of that in at least 7 different ways, here he just pleaded for his life. What I loved as a GoT fan was how someone just playing the titular game of thrones can rise in power. Think House of Cards, in a medieval fantasy setting, made by HBO. In the first seasons the war was just in the background, but the actions of the big players (LF, Varys, Tyrion, Tywin) is what moved the plot forward. Now every episode is just action, and good guys vs bad ice zombies. That's not what I signed up for, and neither is Martin, which is vocally Anti War.

@Zimmit's FunHouse Adventure Even before S7 the showrunners made some rather dumb changes in their characters. In the books, Hand of the King Tyrion is legit the first person (aside from Varys) who ever suspects that Littlefinger is more dangerous than he seems, and shouldn't be trusted. And even Tyrion underestimates him. Book Littlefinger is a helpful little guy that everyone thinks is good at his job, but too lowborn to be ambitious or seek power, even after he's made Lord of Harennhal and marries Lysa Arryn people are just like "Littlefinger would be great for the small council, he's clever and won't abuse his position for his own gain cause he's too weak". In the show it's made to seem like Littlefinger flaunts his ambition around, and yet people trust him because they're too stupid to understand. Varys they managed decently up until he leaves King's Landing, at which point they legit just ditched the Young Griff plotline in favor of Varys doing nothing for a good couple of seasons.

@@mrmcawesome9746 The decline begin with season 5.

Dany doesn't think she's smart or wisen though she's still smarter than Cersei or Stannis anyway. Remember Astapor where she literally misleads the masters by pretending she's just a naïve young girl who knows nothing. But I agree that she made mistakes that other players like Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger or Varys would never have done, however we must remember that she is only 16 years old (a little more in the series).

lol jon is not even on the game

Manu fm "castrated" :D So succinct and true

Makes sense considering the first two books are great, the third is merely good and the fourth and fifth suck. What should you expect?

@@shawnn7502 People don't grow on trees. If you kill them off, they won't be taking part in more events, now will they?

@@shawnn7502 ASOS is merely good? AFFC and ADWD suck? Dude go read Harry Potter or some Marvel shitty comic, ASOIAF's not your type.

Akram Lakamora while i don’t agree with the original comment... ADWD was very bland in comparison to the other books 7/10 while the others were 9/10 or 10/10

Ellinon Enosis Well yeah obviously...they signed up for an adaptation and figured GRRM would have a new book(s) done but he didn't

@@heyitswolfz6695 with the content they had they could have done 10 seasons at least before they need the last book .

@Al3xh413 Well what you said is also considered bad writing. Don't batman a character for 6 seasons just to Loki it in the seventh season.

i just made the same comment with different words. couldn't agree more.

Mr. Mojo Risin how the hell did Sansa of all people get the better of little finger I will never know. She is thick as two planks of wood. Little finger is too smart to get out played by sansa

The reason why Sansa is the one who outplays LF is simple: he is the one who taught her how (plus she was his weakness).

Littlefinger is still alive...

It's also worth mentioning that although Littlefinger was aware that Arya was following him, whenever Littlefinger was actually alone you could hear the cawing of ravens so maybe Bran was worging into ravens to watch him.

LVO one could only hope for that theory, as it does fix what shitty scene that trial was, and it gives purpose to being in the house of black and white, but I hold little hope that D&D won't just make this the simplest show just to be rid of it. I guess theres always the books and fanfictions to hold out hope for :P

Lost Goth It's not only those characters they fucked up

Some people just love to complain.

@@Seraphim-Hamilton well in the case of these 2 characters its true

it's a true, it's damn true

it’s probably harder to translate onto screenplay

Exactly

"like Dany, Varys believes in good" lol 😂

U mean he's burned

Ironic

Oof

Oof

But one of thems dead so not good enough

Tywin Lannister is the greatest, especially of the books.

@@chozenheart You really can't win over some Stone Age magic.

@Gaius Wyrden Littlefinger was always meant to die, however, all the smart people realize how poorly his death was written. This is just the unavoidable truth.

That epilogue in ADWD where he uses his little birds to kill Kevan and Pycelle was dark

im with ya there brother

Thomas Bolt lol they don’t have ideologies

thats what i have been doing

Dan B I don't think that was it, to be honest. His greatest love was power - Cat and Sansa were simply beautiful, desirable, and powerful women. Having one of them by his side would make him even more powerful.

Menuchah Schuman I disagree Littlefinger duelled Brandon stark when he was gonna marry Cat He loved her and Sansa like he said

Littlefinger's biggest weakness was that he was too smart to be written by David Benioff so they had to kill him

Manu fm Littlefinger doesn’t even think white walkers were real

He loved them but he also used them to his own advantage.

This comment says it all!!!

The video helped me better understand the characters. Littlefinger reminds me of Gaston Means (there is a 1 hour long presentation on him here at RU-vid). Gaston Means was featured in Boardwalk Empire.

Kalandria I agreed with everything you said,but he is not a sociopath.

Well, and he tried to undermine her real love- which her love for her family. Even the little sister that she never got along with.

I definitely agree that he did open up, just not love in itself. He started off distant, but there was always an ego to his game. The more ego he displayed in wanting his desires openly, the more he stepped out of the shadows and become emotionally attached to the game he previously was more hands off. It plays a part due to the very reason he became a manipulator in the first place, wounded ego. And Pride will inevitably will lead to a fall. Varys remained in the game due to having no noble family to take pride in or any known happiness in childhood. He takes care of the cause of his misery immediately in order to focus on his goals for manipulation rather than have it spitefully control him in make those that made him suffer while taking increasing joy in it and direct involvement in the game to the point he becomes another piece than a game-master. He maintains a neutral and sometimes genial approach of interactions at times, but its never in a way that its putting himself in a position of absolute authority to make up for his lost pride, but rather its to make the most logical choices for the leadership without bias to make the country thrive in a way that benefits the kingdoms without personal preference. There are slip-ups now and again, but significantly, less so, due to circumstances playing against him rather than his own personal flaws. If he does act on more emotion in the final season, then he's falling in the same trap, but hopefully, he doesn't do something that is completely out of character, like turning out to be not a eunuch and a murderous rapist with ambition would definitely bring his downfall in likability and his stay on the show.

I agree. What I don't understand is why so many fans of LF seem to think he should be invincible while other characters around him fall. At some point he was going to have his Achilles Heel revealed, just like many other major characaters. That was Sansa.

@@animefan77 "like turning out to not be a eunuch" No bc Ros touched him down there and realized Varys is a eunuch.

*Neuter

​@@dominut_is_art604I make eununch jokes

coffeefrog. I don't think the writing was that bad; it was too subtle in that it was easy to miss what was going on underneath. LF is a realist/pragmatist and does not consider anyone is able to out-think or out-act him, except maybe Varys. So when these two magical kids show up at the moment he almost has Sansa ousting Jon, he treats them as mere nuisances. Bran's 'chaos' quote spooked him. Later that episode he watched the amazing teen girl tie with the Hound's conqueror, but with LF's *own* dagger which he'd assumed was *safely* in Bran's hands! He should have scrammed back to the Vale. Probably he relied on gullible Sansa having true power in WF and being able to control those brats. He could not have anticipated that Arya was a Faceless Man who by then had mastered devising complex ruses to outwit formidable opponents. All her so-called out-of-character behavior was part of that ruse. Since LF ignored the signs and stayed, his fate was sealed. He died because he ignored magic. And the reality of magic IS a theme of the show.

L L there was nothing subtle about the writing, and you pulled alot of that from your bum

LL Why are people defending the show when the writing is clearly bad? Littlefinger knew Arya was a faceless assassin, he saw her fighting Brienne and saw Bran's looking intro his past. How does the writing pay respect to the character's personality when all the obvious warning signs are there and they are visible even for average IQ viewers like us, but the most intelligent character is oblivious to them?! Makes not sense!! He's got cocky?! He's always been cocky but wise enough to back down when the situation demands it. His whole character has been about humbly accepting others humiliating him, while, in the shadows plotting to take them down, without them ever knowing it was him taking revenge. He himself said he assumes the worst every time. He didn't take the Stark siblings seriously because he does not believe in magic? He knows about dragons and he knows about white walkers. Nor did he ever say that magic is stupid or does not exist. By no means the LF we know would not pick up the signs and put 1+1 together. The writers dumbed him down to end his arc already and did it in a very dumb manner....and also fanservice. Also, the LF in the books is everyone's friend and people usually like him a lot and trust him due his politeness, sense of humor and charisma. No one ever suspects him. The LF in the show has always been dumbed down, but this season they murdered his character. LF should represent the game of thrones itself. The message of the show is linked to this character. Both him and the message died this season, and that's the sad truth. Game of thrones is now a marvel movie.

To edgelords, the world is cruel and unfair, and GoT was a breath of fresh air amid the insipid nonsense that presents some degree of optimism or kindness. In reality, the world is extremely complex, and can't be reduced to "cruel and unfair". If the world is indeed representative of Game of Thrones, it would have self-destructed long before the present date. The very fact that there IS a world at all implies a variety of human traits and outcomes, and I argue that extensive examination of humanity reveals it's deep complexity, rather than the dominance of any particular trait. So the world is cruel and unfair, SOMETIMES. Sometimes it's kind and fair, and sometimes it's something else entirely.

Brian Koontz I get what you're saying and sometimes bad guys get punished. That's not the problem we "edgelords" have with LF's death. The problem is that he acted waaaaaay out of character. That's the problem. It only happened for plot reasons not because that was the natural thing for the character to do. Imagine if Arya all of a sudden started being very lady-like and gossiping about boys and crushes at the end of the series just so she could marry say ....Gendry or whatever. It would be nonsensical, out of character, and you would get mad. That's what happend to us. We are mad because LF became a different character this season for no reason. I would not have a problem with his death if it happened in a different way. You would expect LF to die for having emotions for Sanda and her taking advantage of that, not because he became less intelligent,cunning and somehow his deductive skills dissapeared. Or at least give me a reason why he became less intelligent like him being blinded by his attraction/love to Sansa, blinded by his past (any reason that makes him a vurnelabile human being). Even hurting his head would be better than what we've got.

i agree

That's true in the books, but not in the show

There is still a question what Varys wanted in the books For some reasons he convince Aerys to attend the Tourney of Harrenhal WHY? he knew that others houses wanted Aerys Out? but he told Aerys NOT to OPEN GATES for Lannisters's Party? WHY?

I believe Aegon (the Murmmer's dragon) might be the son or grandnephew of Aegon the unlikely two sisters they were marry off to some men but happen to their off springs?.

“The King won't give you any honors, the histories won't mention you, but we will not forget”

​@@yt-shhave you forgot, Lord Varys?

Ashfalor might have been my dog, might have been the frozen head of walt Disney... you'll never know.

+Voodoo Doll I was holding lysa arryn....shit :(