Game of Thrones Podcast Episode 54 - House of the Dragon Seasons 2 Episode 3: The Burning Mill 

preston is back from his secret mission. unfortunately, we lose substitute teacher trey😢

I can't speak for most people with autism but I personally have had an easier time looking people in the eyes and holding conversations as I get older so I don't find Helena's characterization contradictory.

Otto wasnt just mad at Aegon for the assassination attempt. He was mainly mad about the ratcatchers.

The White Worm should have sent Damon to the brothel to kill Aemon.

Genuinely shocked neither of you brought up that Dyana is in this episode. So the writers definitely have season 1 Aegon in mind still

I have to say that the scene I appreciate the most was the opening between the Blackwoods and Brackens because, finally, for the first time in ASOIAF, the Blackwoods are presented as the arrogant dicks for once and the Brackens are shown in a somewhat sympathetic light. The main series keeps trying to pretend this is a commentary on the pointlessness of ancient blood feuds, but it’s not. The Blackwoods are a bunch of honourable badasses and the Brackens are a bunch of stuck up jerks, it’s actually a very one sided conflict morally speaking that only ever leaves you rooting for one side and one side only. So I cannot thank the show enough for finally introducing some ambiguity into this situation, even leaving the possibility open that the Blackwoods started a fight over stones the Brackens never moved, because this REALLY needed it and it truly cements the horror of the next scene showing a mountain of corpses leaving you shocked by the needless violence and not just upset that some Brackens survived and too many Blackwoods died, like it is in m the books.

Preston is always so on point. His posture on logic in writing is so good. That's why sometimes when you watch or read so many good stuff and you get delivered crumbs you feel so disappointed.

29:16 Just have to refute the notion here that "In real life, siblings look alike". This is clearly not always the case. I have a large family and half of my siblings look one way, half look another (each half primarily taking after one parent, respectively). But with my closest brother for instance, you'd never be able to tell we were related we look so different. People often don't even believe it. So that point doesn't take me out of a TV show or other media.

Preston is 1000% about the Blood and Cheese scene

Something missed by a lot of people I'm noticing is the foreshading in the scene before Ulf, we get a very deliberately framed shot of a boy with a puppet dragon and a prostitute dropping a coinpurse from a window, and the two overlap when she does so it looks like someone is falling from the back of a dragon.

Like every mantle passed on from generation to generation, from father to son, from king to king, every burden must be taken away and bequeathed unto another. And so it was that in this episode that Cregan’s actor gave the responsibility of having a terribly ill fitting and out of place accent to Alys Rivers’ actress, just as it was given to him by Mysaria before him. The cycle of burdens is ever unending. 😔

I agree about the game of thrones references. It feels kinda 4th wall breaking. It takes you out of it

20:51 Otto specifically tried to take out rhaenyra BEFORE she knew her father was dead. Once they missed that opportunity, he considered the window closed. The way aegon did it was crude and reckless, not at all Otto's style

Autists quite often learn how to mask their autism over time. If child Haleana shows clear signs of autism and adult Haleana doesn't that would be a realistic depiction of an autistic person.

“Clever use of trees to depower the dragons.” Good point Preston. Not too many other clever ways for the show writers to use all their trees. The only other uses coming to mind are standing, shading, maybe some waving in the wind. Good on them for finding a more clever way to use their trees!

i think aegon changed a lot because at first he didnt want to be king, just live carelessly and without consequences. but then accepted it and kinda grew into his role. just seems abrupt because we see him only a couple of times

I feel like Otto calling it a "prank" showed why he was mad about it. Sending one dude to go kill the most protected person on an isolated island is not only very unlikely, but is also very likely to make things worse. Even if it did work thiugh, yes, it would hurt the Blacks, but they would still be fighting for Jace or Daemon anyway most likely, so even the absolute best case scenario wouldn't do much. In fact, considering how much Otto hates Daemon, killing Rhaenyra may even be worse for the Greens because then you'd have an unchecked Daemon doing whatever the hell. Again, this is all considering the fact that the plan was extremely likely to not work out. I mean all the greens need to do from Ottos perspective is protext King's landing and slowly consolidate power through political moves and ravens. With Vhagar, Sunfyre, Dreamfyre, etc, they're extremely hard to take down, at least not for some time. So agitating the greens, and potentially handing the reigns of power to Daemon would be the opposite of buying time and defending their position. It makes sense to me.

While I missed Preston in the pod, I truthfully enjoyed Trey’s positivity and openness to enjoy the show. I also find that Carmine back tracks some previously positive comments to go along with Preston’s tougher criticism.

Otto is inconsistent but that's precisely the point (imo). It's been made clear by the show that Alicent uses her faith as a tool to reinforce her own desires as just. She feels wronged by Rhaenyra's flaunting of social conventions (the seed is strong...) as she was forced to abide to and was then harmed by those said social conventions. I wonder if we may yet learn more about Otto's backstory, but it's clear that he sees virtues, principles and behaviour in general as a means to an end: to grow the status of the Hightower name. When Alicent "breaks" the rules by trying to stab Rhaenyra, Otto commends her because he needs Rhaenyra dead if he is to succeed in his goal. I doubt Otto would have commended Alicent for "breaking the rules" if she had avoided her "duty" to "comfort" Viserys. So, when Otto reprimands Aegon (II) as "callous and feckless" he is simply plucking the most "feathered" adjectives for "naughty boy" from his vocabulary. Otto later calls Aegon and Aemon "peacocks," likening their aggression and recklessness as their feathers. This I believe to be the show-writers mirroring Criston's arc from the same episode, in which we clearly see he is projecting. Otto is also projecting here, but in a more subtle way, as he always does. Otto does not value any particular virtue, principle or behaviour but rather values bias and preference. If we can continue to use Alicent's relationship to Otto as an example of the mirroring of Otto's own behaviour - her exclamation of "but he (Otto) would be partial to me" in S1 is another clue towards Otto's lack of a moral compass. Otto's true value lies in cautious and careful consideration, followed by going all in on the "perfectly caclulated" opportunity to stike (e.g. Visery's death). Furthermore, causes for autism have been linked to genetics. Halaena is pretty squarely autistic-coded, so either Alicent or Viserys had to have been autistic. If Alicent is autistic (and may be considered more "high-masking") then either Otto or Otto's wife must have been autistic too. And before you dismiss the importance of this factor, please consider this. The myers-brigg personality test is rudimentary yet can provide some basic insight into human behaviour. The INFP personality type is ascribed as "mediators" and famous among them is J.R.R. tolkien, who I assume anyone reading this comment understands the links to this discussion. The INFP personality type is also commonly colloquially likened to individuals with autism - citing similarities like a strong sense of justice or truth and enhanced pattern recognition (come on guys think of Halaena). And you don't get (intentionally) "distracted" * from finishing the most commercially successful fantasty series since LOTR to write Fire and Blood if you don't have a bit of the tism. * GRRM has said in an interview (pre-success of GOT) that if he wanted to create the next LOTR, he would use the "downtime" in-between the release of novels to generate hype and success. The last ASOIAF book was published the year GOT aired. GOT wasn't analysed as marketable, scripted, casted, filmed edited and released in less than a year. ADOD was published the year of GOT being aired as that was the last time Martin actually had a self-imposed deadline - to finish the next book before the show comes out, so that he can absolutely rake in the hype for his next book for the foreseeable future. Back to Otto. He's "inconsistent" yes, but because he's got a bit of the tism. P.s. I have the card

How is that everyone forgot that rhaenys is a mass murderer?

I've always felt that young Rhaenyra and Alicent being played as "lesbians" is very true to real life young female friendships. They can be so intense and all consuming that often they can be confused with feelings of sexual/romantic love for eachother. Often, girls will either grow apart, realise they're gay or they stay friends but the friendship "cools" with age and those sexual feelings disappear. So to me, the fact the older actors don't play them as being gay makes sense. Especially as they've fallen out with each other, those intense feelings of love can quickly become all consuming senseless hate as well. On Helaena being autistic; I just assumed that the older actor was playing someone with autism who had learnt to "mask". Many of us with autism learn this ability as we age and realise that our autistic traits garner attention (that we don't want!) masking is the lesser of two evils. Helaena does for the most part still avoid physical contact and eye contact. She only gives eye contact when she absolutely must, same for physical.

As an autist myself I got that vibe from Helena

Preston’s gotta have the most calming voice in this fandom, dude could talk me into driving into a tree. Also, loved the episode guys, great discussion.

00:20:11 Tbf, Otto wanted to send swords before they found out about Viseysses death which made way more sense then, as it would have been way easier. He also said it out loud in public so that in true bloodraven Hand of the King fashion, his King would have his own hands clean after the deed is done. Ending the war & securing the future in one fell swoop?

The show doesn't say that the eggs are Daenerys's, the writer did in an external interview. In terms of the story, it would make sense for Rhaenyra to send unhatched eggs for Rhaena, Aegon III, and Viserys II with them so that they could potentially have their own dragons. So in terms of the what the show does I don't think there's anything wrong with the eggs being there.

Please make a Sweetrobin reaction to episode 2, I can't handle a mere 7 episode season of Brandon and Chad

Trying to frame everything as "they're benevolent and want to avoid war" is so silly. The years of tension... Summoning Rhynera moments after child birth to go "another bastard I see", stealing her throne, blinding aemond, alicent trying to blind Luke, killing Luke, killing jaherys... And they're still looking for a peaceful solution? What solution, seriously. I'd like them more if after Luke it was "right, how do we kill them all" I don't need to like daemon to find him interesting, why do I need to like the rest of them...

Emma D'Arcy is fiiiiiineeeee 🎉

And we're back bros

Preston where are your watch videos for episode 2 and 3??

44:20 - The only reason for showing Aemond in a Pieta scene is hinting that he's going to die very soon. The Pieta is and was used in war memorials to represent women mourning soldiers (none of said soldiers of course was anything like Jesus). That's why I think it is a foreshadowing.

The whole Rhaenyra/Alicent scene struck me as the showrunners and writers desperately wanting to have a "one last drink before the war" scene. The last moment of peace before everything changes forever. But instead of that, we get this whacky D&D Disguise Self scene where the woman whose silver hair is hanging out of the corners of the habit manages to get close to the Queen and pull a knife on her literally days after a high-profile political assassination. I just kinda laughed at it. Nothing was achieved and they just kinda walk away.

And here I was, worried this podcast was no more…. Tbh, I half thought Carmine might have served Preston with divorce papers at some point since last season, culminating with a vicious custody battle that ended with Preston only allowed to see Trey the Explainer every other weekend. I’m glad to be wrong.

Yea I’m annoyed with them trying to make show cannon Syrax the mother of Dany’s dragons lol. Why make Dreamfyre look exactly like Drogon then. This new twist isn’t interesting at all. Just forcing more of a Rhaenyra & Dany connection. Changes should add to the story, not be fan service

There were 4 eggs so it was also setup for Dunk n Egg as well. The eggs will come up a few more times they re their own story.

No mention of Daemon getting spooked by the BATS at Harrenhall? 🦇 🦇 🦇 🦇 Definitely a Lothston reference. Would have thought Preston would be all over that considering that's where Sweet Robin and Brann get half their mutant psychic powers from.

The whoopsies also accompany actual intent. Alicient had the whoopsie but Otto and the council were planning to overthrow Rhaenyra the whole time. Daemon wanted Aemond dead but the whoopsie was that Jahaerys was killed instead (not so much of a whoopsie). And we never heard what he told blood and cheese so maybe he did tell them to kill Jahaerys as a last resort band he didn't want to look like the total bad guy to Rhaenyra. Vhagar killing Luke is a little different because Aemond is flying this massive dragon that has a mind of its own. He has that hate towards Luke for taking his eye but he never wanted him dead either.

Just once i want carmine to ask "preston you mind if we wrap it up here" and preston to say yes i do mind and go on a 40 minute rant about something completely random

I didn't realize how many whoopsie moments the writers had inserted into the story. Very good observation

My only thoughts about the Blood and Cheese making mistakes and being spooked themselves etc. I think they're just trying to humanise them. To show that there's no such thing as monsters, half the time they're just people. In this case one could argue, starving people who are desperate for money or just straight up greedy. They fuck up because they're just normal people who ended up in a desperate situation. I guess?? The Oops! That was an accident! Moments I think again, are to show that a lot of wars and such can be down to petty or just straight up stupid accidents?

In the prequels the clone wars isn’t just member berry throw away stuff it is the entire plot

That ending of the podcast was abrupt. Did Carmine have to go to the bathroom? 🤔

Our favorite agent was busy around debate, however with that out of way, we can enjoy some HotD content.

You know what dumb shit is going to be added to oopsie whoopsie? Rhaenys goes to protect Rooks Rest. Aemond sees Rhaenys and stops his dragon from attacking her. But Sunfyre slams into them from above and in the chaos Vhagar gets pissed and basically roasts all who she can. Oopsie ! Aemond is a good guy, she didn't want to kill Rhaenys Aegon is the bad guy and Vhagar is just old and done with everyone's shit. Aemond is not a kindlayer guys, he remembered how Rhaenys spared his life. Men cannot control dragons. Its all a misunderstanding guys! BOO HOOO

"Held like Jesus"

Hell yeah we’re back 👍

Carmine in the early reviews for the season you literally said "You can't blame the show for alluding to Game of Thrones, it's a prequel". Maybe this is what they were referring to and you were quick to judgement?

Did Preston really just say the Cargyle plan was good? 😬

Damn…Preston has a good point about the threes company and everything being an oopsy of miscommunication. If the story isn’t about the cost of revenge, I don’t know what its about.

Preston was spot on in this!

It weirdly felt like blood and cheese had a small pov chapter

Disagree on all the whoopsies. Aemond would have been happy for Luke to cut out his eye, the Greens were gonna do their coup with or without Alicent, Daemon didn't whoopsie Jaeherys, he's itching for war. All these people made choices and inch by inch things have built up to a point they can't be stopped.

Love you both. It’s been a great show. Represent the unofficial podcast. Can’t wait for next week. 😘

While the setup for the end of episode 3 might have been strange, I really feel like the dialogue saved it. Remember, this is the same universe where a Targaryen snuck into King’s landing in a sack of corn and stole a dragon.

21:55 I mean, presumably a bunch of Aegon's Bros in the Kingsguard will die through the War. Also sure, Aegon is likeable/sympathethic. That does not necessarily make him a good person, or even an ok/mediocre person. He could still be kind of a jerk and sympathethic. 29:12 That's a misconception. They didn't eat enough sugar for their teeth to get bad so their teeth were surprisingly healthy. Also regarding Star Wars, Clone Wars were far from unimportant even in the originals. They are the thing that connects Leia to Obi-wan, and similarly connect Anakin and Obi-wan to each other in addition to the Anakin being Obi-wan's student (been a while since I watched a New Hope but I am not sure it was ever stated that Anakin was Obi-wan's student in that. Vader is mentioned as his student but as far as that movie is concerned Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are different people. Obi-wan mentions him as a pilot and "a good friend"). So they are pretty important in that they are what connects Obi-wan (and Jedi in general when one thinks about it) to Luke and Leia. Moreover, you could disagree with the decision of having the first Prequel movie be about Anakin as a child rather than him already being closer to Luke's age at a New Hope and a Jedi. But once that was decided on I would say that showing the Clone Wars in the other movies to some degree would be something of a necessity as it is the basically the most important event we hear about in the Original Trilogy that would be in the time of the Prequels. If episodes two and three were entirely disconnected from the Clone Wars (which would probably mean no Clone Wars multimedia project as we knew it, likely no Clone Wars 3D animated series as well) then fans would most likely complain about not being shown anything about the Clone Wars. 45:00 He is not held like Jesus, he is held like a baby. Ah, good you get there later. I am not sure if you could call that simple. I mean, surface level, perhaps but it is not as if Jesus imagery (if intended) would have been subtle. Aemond showing his vulnerability here and not anywhere else and him longing for motherly/family love are symbolic enough. It is not like this is some basic two dimensional characteristics.

Agreed, the obsession with showing us that Alicent and Rhaenyra want peace is over the top and adds nothing. It makes them look naive.

Just wondering, when Condal says they couldn't do it legally, are we sure he's not talking about child actors (especially that young) with very violent dialogue? I thought that's why we didn't have a scene of the children waking up and off-screened the death. I can't imagine traumatizing children with parents on set for a scene of their actor mother Sophie's choicing.

I don't have a problem with Raenyes saying 'Otto wouldn't do that' she has miss judged Otto, that's a possibility. And the greens always had a level of hypocrisy and narcissism. It still fits.

Preston is so right about his blood and cheese point

PJ IS BACK FOMOS

7:57 lmao

I think in the writers’ minds the misunderstandings are supposed to make it even more Shakespearean and tragic. Although B&C doesn’t count bc it’s clear they want us to understand that Damon was fine with them going for any son. also, during season 1 promo Olivia Cooke did talk about her own head cannon of Alicent and Rhaenyra having a romantic connection in their past. She’s called Alicent closeted and everything

Rightly or wrongly, I see why they had Blood and Cheese as the victims in a horror movie, because they _were_ doomed to get caught by the dragons afterwards and suffer their wrath, along with so many other smallfolk. One of the horror movie moments was the one looking at a tapestry of dragons burning stuff, I think.

Yeah, she got punk’d. 😂😂😂

Surprisingly, tooth quality in history "long ago" was actually pretty well - though admittedly in particular for people who had no access to sugary luxury foods...

On the "motherliness" itd be interesting to look for other parts of the 7. Is there a Stranger?

09:00 Thank God Preston's back. Finally someone who is willing to admid that the B&C scene ruined the episode.

we are back

I was looking for HOTD so I missed this

You should rename this TheOfficialComplainOfThronesPodcast 🥴

Who is this new guy? Trey's cousin?? Not bad for an intern podcast tho

loved trey but i missed preston. you guys have good chemistry

Are you guys gonna be covering Acolyte and or the Boys s4?

I haven't seen anyone say any episode is boring.

Is that Cregan Steuaaak on the screen?

On your point about the showrunner making Alicent and Rhaenyra more likeable than in the book, I feel like they have to do that now, because after Rook's Rest they will both start moving down the road to revenge that you were talking about. The showrunners want us to empathise with the characters now, so we remain attached to them when they start carrying out more extreme acts

I think the point about blood & cheese is a great point about the show Generally, there is a certain Lack of mystery in hotd as compared to got. B&C could have been a season or several season mystery on who was behind the attack and what specifically happened but it was too obvious

Love ya big P ❤

Is Carmine aware of Fraternal twins? Surely he is. Totally possible with Baela and Rhaena. Edit: They are NOT twins in the show! Baela is 2 years older than Rhaena.

Carmine will hate me for this but I did find episode 2 kinda boring. In ep1 Criston and Aemond were talking about battle strategy and what they will do but none of that comes into fruition in ep2. I expect there to be a sense of urgency and for the crown to add the levies of the crownlands but instead we see Alicent in a bath saying nothing and Aemond in a brothel and people teleporting on boats. The time inconsistency has got to be my biggest criticism of Season 2 and it was encapsulated in ep2. I really liked ep3 because Daemon finally takes action as does Cole and we see troops finally leaving KL and Rhaenyra’s council start actually urging to do something. The Dance began in S1E9 and it takes us till S2E3 to finally see shit being done.

Congrats to pronouncing Prestons last name the _proper_ way 😁

No Black Aly, would it have been the most opportune time to introduce her? Agreed that ending on Daemon would have been better. Great discussion as always you two!

I hardly ever agree with Preston,but he was spit’n straight facts in this episode. These writers wild

Just starting watching this podcast again, so fun! Really hate that they keep trying to portray the Dance as just a series of mistakes. S1 makes it clear and obvious that the real reason they don't want Rhaenyra to take the throne is because she's a woman. It's not about what name Viserys uttered before he died. After Episode 2, Rhaenyra should know it's time to go to war. Why the watering down of her and Alicent? It's disappointing.

A real coup getting Simon Russell Beale for the show. He's the new Diana Rigg. I agree that Otto is inconsistent, but I'm still really missing him.

Thou forgot about episode 2?

Jacob Prestons

Pj is back MoFos

Where’s Winds

I don't like the very Star Wars impulse in media to explain everything and tie it back together, and maybe the camera lingered a little too lovingly on those dragon eggs. But, they came from somewhere. Rhaena's gotta go back to the Vale with some dragon eggs. Why not give media youtubers somthing to put in their red circles?

All of the sudden Carmine understands that these episodes have been much less stellar than he has been saying throughout the whole time Preston hasn’t been here? Hilarious

Im glad your back preston but i miss trey. I cant have it all apperently .

I think the legality of the Blood and Cheese adaptation that Ryan Condal was alluding to was the choice to have the twins be asleep. I think the legality would’ve become an issue if they put the child actors through the distress that a more accurate B&C portrayal would necessitate.

About Preston's Rant about motherhood...In a world of men and patriarchy, women character tend to cinque to the one role known and taught to them. However strong power deterministic smart its only natural that the mother tenderness as a force of balancing contradict the role of men's destructive nature

Helaena covering her ears when Vaemond was killed was the clearest autistic trait they could have done imo. It's the closest thing they could have done to putting up a sign for the audience.

43:20 actually i think it still is a tale about what happens when u let bitterness and revenge consume u...a more realistic take on it by showing all the "whoopsies"..when your bitterness and need for revenge has "consumed" u its common for hasty and rushed lashing out to lead to whoopsies...no..?

I’ve worked in film and television and it’s complete nonsense that they couldn’t do blood and cheese legally. There are very convincing ways to film things happening to and in front of children without the child being traumatised or even understanding what is occurring in the scene. The original The Exorcist has scenes of a young girl stabbing her genitals with a crucifix while blood splatters on her mothers face… that a whole film was made without traumatising 12 year old Linda Blair, despite the news media rumours at the time that the film drove her crazy. If you have just a little bit of creativity, you could figure out how to do a truly horrifying blood and cheese without breaking a single law or ethical guideline.

You are bang on about their being no continuity. I was pissed about Aegon being criticized about Otto's original plan! And how they ruined Alicent and Rhaenyra finally meeting. In season 1 episode 8, Alicent asks Rhaenyra to stay and Rhaenyra says that she will "be back on dragon back". For me that foreshadowed them finally meeting when Rhaenyra takes over Kings Landing on Syrax. Now that scene has lost its significance. Also, septa costume or not, NOBODY recognizes the woman who wad heir to the throne for 20 years? No goldcloak? No guard? When it comes to the dragon egg scene I thought they wanted to emphasize how much faith Rhaenyra had in Rhaena and how much she was honoring her. Alicent in season 1 episode 6 says that everyone knows that Aegon is the rightful heir and will be king. That has clearly been Ottos's long term plan. So why is she so shocked when her council wants to usurp the throne?

One advice for Preston - if scenes don't work for you, fine, no problem. But please don't fall into the trap so many 'critics' fall into and proclaim your opinion as being an unalterable fact!

Was septa raeneyra a reference to her aunt Saera?