Gotta love your commitment and deep dive/going down the rabbit hole. This is why I subscribed to this channel. You always deliver "the goods". I watched the video (all of it) even if I probably won't ever get my hands on these pedals. Keep the awesome content coming. Also congrats on 50K!
Excellently done Lama, I always enjoy your thorough and logical approach to diagnosis. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't "scaled" at the final manufacturing stage and calibrated against a known torque, with the correction stored in flash memory. We take these strain gauges for granted, but in my opinion they're still a pretty amazing piece of technology; the numbers they measure are often pretty weeny. However if the manufacturer makes a claim of accuracy then it's then up to that manufacturer to uphold those claims. I don't own the pedals but will be watching with interest as to how you get on. Good luck.
I have the same issues with Garmin Vector 3. Thanks for the study and update. Now I know that I need a new battery case. I can't believe how far you went down the rabbit hole. Good one!!
Llama only you would continue down the rabbit hole more times than you can remember? Major props for such a spot on review. You and Ray Maker make an awesome review team when it comes to electronics.
Shane, THANK YOU for showing this in single pedal mode. I can’t afford a dual setup nor am I at the caliber of needing them and to see how accurate it was against the neo was great! Obviously this is subjective to a riders pedal stroke but it helps to see how it works.
Great job doing this video! What I see here is unacceptable for a supposedly premium product. I mean both battery and accuracy issues. People still gonna buy it though because it is pretty and has Garmin name on it. Stages kept selling buttloads of their power meters despite being notorious for accuracy, battery compartment and signal dropout issues for long years. Power of marketing...
It's not just marketing. The design engineers are good but the QA processes and interdepartmental communications suck. The product could be the best available if properly supported.
thanks shane for doing all the work for us on the vectors. im like so many mad / frustrated / pissed garmin customers that cant understand why they cant get a set of pedals this caliber correct. im honestly at the point where im ready to ditch them even with this "fix" and get some assiomas and be done with it.
One should loosen the spindle nut and then set the correct toque. All that was demonstrated in the video was that the nut was tightened to 10Nm OR above. The problem is when the nut is too tight. Great video though -Thanks for doing this..
Hi Shane. Very enjoyable and helpful video. Thanks for taking the time to do it. Regarding the tightening of the spindle nut. I believe you should have loosened it first and then tightened to the prescribed setting. Otherwise, you've proven it's tightened to at least 10nm, but it could be more. If it was already tightened to 12nm, your click-stop wrench would click at 10nm because it was previously overtightened. Thanks again
I had a set of these on pre-order way back in october last year. When the release date was continually being pushed back i spat it and swapped them out for a set of P1's (which have been flawless.) In hindsight this seems to be a monumentally good decision! Kudos on your persistence tho mate.
Great analysis shane 👍. I have sent my vector 3 garmin pedals back to garmin and hope they will be fine when they come back. So far I am very disappointed from garmin.
Nice video ! Just one comment. To check if the torque of the screw is good, you have to untighten it first, then tighten it to the torque value until feel the click. If you tighten it directly, you might overtighten it.
I was just going to add this comment. You put a torque wrench on a bolt/nut and it clicks without turning you know it's at least that tight, could be a whole lot tighter. Also this could be a source of the errant power reading, maybe?
I also totally agree with these comments. I am not sure exactly what is going on inside the pedals but if accuracy depends on the torque being correctly set to 10Nm then it is essential to loosen the screw first and then re-tighten. The problematic right pedal could already be at 15Nm and you will not know.
For the record, based on the 12th order 2008 Earth Gravitational Model, the total acceleration of gravity in Ballarat is 9.81738 m/s^2. Excellent analysis in the video.
The slight increase in elevation is apparently offset by some mass concentration in the Earth under your town. If you look at this gravity map of Earth, you can see some highish gravity areas (positive numbers on the scale are higher gravity) at your end of Aussieland. www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/1000_1x_/public/import/2013/images/2010/06/goce.gif?itok=RO6FYP-L
Appreciate the detailed analysis, Mr. Miller. I've been riding with new Vector 3's for about 2 weeks and I'm estimating the right side is reading about 5% low. I have the updated battery caps, using CR1/3N batteries, baby oil, and checked the terminals are proud. I haven't checked the torque on the spindle nut but both pedals "feel" tight and even. I'm trying to decide if I'll run the torque test and offset the right pedal, contract Garmin, or just return them. After riding with a PowerTap rear hub for 2+ years that "just works" every time, it's hard to justify riding with data that I can't really trust.
Estimating is the problem, so yep, a static torque test would be a good start. Updating the scale factor of a power meter is only good when the discrepancy is linear, otherwise it just shifts the issue elsewhere.
I ran the static torque and calculated ratios for left and right (0.930 and 0.968). After a few rides I'm still seeing spikes on the left side that I don't trust.
Nice one Shane. No stone left unturned! When you invest in a product, you want it to work as promised out of the box. The less than optimal performance is not a great advertisement for Garmin, particularly for a product that is a bit more expensive than some of its competitors. You would think that being the 3rd gen that things would have improved...perhaps not.
Excellent job Lama. I have 2 sets of these power meters and have had the same issue with the reading from the right pedal. I have to change the battery pods and update the software. I am a bit miffed about the problems given how much the Vector 3 cost. I will keep an eye out for your next video on this to see if Garmin can get their act together and fix the problem,
Hi Shane - really appreciated this video. followed it to the letter last night to handle by own V3 service. Many Many thx for being as retentive I am when it comes to service items.
Confirms my decision to steer in the direction of Assioma Duo. They have been rock solid since installing. If I were a Garmin engineer, I'd be embarrassed.
Good vid Shane. In my case as usual I take my bike outside and turn my Garmin on only to be notified of an update for my Vector 3s.Stand there patiently waiting. Mine have been good since that update.
Great work Shane! Very interesting to see you get to the bottom of things, and informative as I am hesitating to buy those, but you're shining light on their shortcomings.
Thanks for all the work you're doing to help us Vector 3 owners understand what to expect for power accuracy. Very interested to hear what Garmin says is the problem - we would all benefit if its resolvable?
Brilliant in-depth analysis. Keep up the great work! I actually ordered the Vector 3 power peddles based on your unboxing video. Looks like I better request those replacement battery caps... 😒 Garmin have really not done themselves any favours rushing what seems to be an early release to market without thorough quality checks in place. At least with thanks to yourself and the community highlighting these issues with factual quantitative evidence Garmin are responding by releasing firmware updates and providing replacement components.
Watching this video only now but I must say I'm deeply impressed by your approach to this topic. As you said, "these are only numbers" but paying tons of $$$ you would expect that the numbers coming out of these units are accurate. If they are not, what's the point of paying $$$? Cheers! PS: I will search for your follow up videos, keen to see if Garmin has one anything since then
Shane, many thanks for all the hard work. As someone who is hovering on V3s vs Assiomas I am very much looking forward to reading what Garmin come back with!
I have a replacement set of Vector 3 here.... I'll be brutally honest. I don't have the motivation to open the box. I really don't. I've spent WEEKS of my time messing about with my previous set. I'm still contemplating returning them for my $1500 back. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them. If I do put them on the bike and they're crap, I'll crack.
I'm sure no-one is expecting you to go through all of that again; my God you've earned the right not to. I think you've convinced me that the Assiomas are the way to go. I'm really enjoying your channel so many thanks and be well!
Based on your videos and struggles, I'm still happy with the purchase of the Favero Uno that you reviewed. Waiting for Cycling dynamics to upgrade to duo... Yes, I'll be waiting a good while
great video once again Shane. i wondered why they weren't getting much of a run on your channel. i would be very interested of the right pedal reading low is a common thing or not.if you need a fit file or a lone of pedals for test yell out :)
Don't hold out for that one.... these 'dead honest truths' videos don't serve me well for companies wanting to work with me. Unless they DO make an awesome product and are 100% confident in it. We'll see....
All my Vector 3 problems have been solved by ditching them for a pair of Favero Assioma, which have been rock solid. I will never buy a Garmin product again after this and the Fenix 5 hardware defect. Stay away from Garmin products, their quality control is simply horrible.
As for the quality control: We had a Garmin Swim watch, that wasn't waterproof... And the replacement unit was draining the battery within a single day...
I still (want to) believe they're a market leader in so many aspects. And if I get time I'll cover a few of the new/cool things they've released in the last few weeks on the firmware/software side of things.... but.... with technology they have to innovate, take risks, and sometimes push uncooked things to market to stay ahead of the competition. The result being what we've seen here and on other forums. Hmmm. Anyhow, I'll keep them on their toes! :)
I'm not sure that pushing products to the market that are clearly not working properly is a good long term marketing strategy. If you are in fact souring the taste of your brand with customers I cannot see how this is staying ahead of the competition. I applaud what you are doing Shane as your 'complaints' are not just some random internet person saying 'the pedals are shit bro' and likely to be ignored by the powers that be but like Matt Damon's character in The Martian you 'science the shit out of it' and hopefully Garmin react.
Great job what a thorough fair test It will be interesting to hear what Garmin say also if they sent you a new pair what the results would be in comparison For the money they should be accurate
A €850 power meter should work out of the box! I used to love Garmin. I have a running watch, an Edge unit, the Vector 3 pedals and various Garmin cycling accessories. However, I have reached a point where I don't believe that these pedals will ever work 100 % as intended. Yes, the new battery doors will fix the connectivity issues but I'm also annoyed by things such as: 1) Battery draining 2) Huge power spikes 3) PCO changes from time to time 4) Requires a torque wrench that works in both directions for right pedal spindle (cheap ones don't) 5) Garmin Connect Mobile always report "Good" battery status and shows an exclamation point from the pedals Shane, do you regret that you bought these pedals?
Thank you for the tip, Rich. Garmin just replaced my pedals with some new ones that have the updated battery doors. Let's hope it will solve the issue!
Fantastic and insight vlog as allways shane, may be garmin will started shipping calibrated 20kg weights with new caps to sort this issue.its a shame garmin continue to use consumers as beta testers paying a premium rate for the privalage.
Thank you for demonstrating the possible subtle issues that may influence the pop up of Gremelins. In my case, my G. V3 were purchased in 2020 and the firm ware is now 3.80. I’m still getting the Right Power sensor missing !!? I just saw that Garmin have a note in the G. Connect App not to link the G. V3 with the iOS device IF one is using an Edge series (I believe they note: 520, 820, 1000 and 1030). I’ve removed them from my G. Connect APP. And “à la Sagan... we will see” tomorrow, if this was a connection to a device battle causing the right pedal to drop out !!? Cheers
SITREP I’ve removed the Vector 3 from my Garmin Connect App. on my iOS 13.3.1. So far over 5hrs of riding and I have not had a missing Right power sensor 🤞🏻🤞🏻. Of note 1) I’mstill using the SR44 (2x 1.5V Batt/ side), and 2) I did clean the contacts, those that are found on each side of the battery cup-guizmo(2x) of the right pedal only. I suspect 2) is the biggest issue. I think with ride vibrations small plastic particles (dust) is generated. And with the electric charge at the contacts, this produced static energy that attracts the plastic dust to the poles/contacts. Its a super quick clean to introduce in ones routine every 500km or so, or 50km of cobbles !! 😜😜🤪🖖🏻
Make sure that you select the correct amount of battery doors you require 1 for the S and 2 for the dual as I made this mistake and only received 1 so trying to get another one.
Funnily enough my vectors were functioning fine since March up until this week where I've started to see drop outs while on Zwift broadcasting over ant+. I thought it may have been connected to my kickr 18 showing up but that's unlikely. I've updated the firmware, battery caps, batteries, energy ant+ dongle. Just submitted my ticket to Garmin so will see what happens next. I'm a bit of a Garmin fan boy so hoping for the best here!
I also had mine for about 3 months before they stopped working. It took over 2 months to get the new battery cap. They didn't even send new batteries or this new service advisory (have heard nothing about these other issues). I have had about one 5 second signal drop-out with the new battery cap in 30 hours of riding. Not bad compared to where they were but still slightly concerning. If these these break again I'm not looking forward to the enormous hassle of dealing with Garmin.
You're absolutely right, for that amount of money the things should just work right out of the box. At the same time, if you know the readings are off by a couple of percent on one side can't you fix it in the observer?
After watching your video I realised my Vector 3's were showing the same power reading issues (right was low). I had to change my batteries today as they were low and for some reason that issue has gone. Not sure why as batteries shouldn't matter but something to look at.
First ride with vector 3's today and I have the same issue. Neo 2T measuring super low... Garmin V3 right pedal measuring low... I'm about to throw all PM's out the window and go old school.... Lol... It's 2020 god damn it. Give me accurate PM's!! I hope Garmin can replace my pedals for a good calibrated pair off the factory...
I have the padels to. The first 3 months they workt perfect, after I had to change a battey the right one started to give issues of connection lost, removed the padels from my headunit for a month so no power meter :( .... last week I did the firmware upgrade nothing changed then disabled the right padel and it works fine, so now riding with only the left one on. Gona order the replacements caps and ty that :) I did choose for the garmin vector 3 because of the looks and I had the head unit.....
First of all, as always, great video Shane!!! Thanks for sharing this with the Garmin community and the rest of the possible interested folks. I have one question I would like to ask you: what software analysis tool are you using to compare the power data? I am interested for the comparison of the left vs right pedal power data. I have the Wahoo Bolt which generates .fit files. How can I extract the data for the left vs. right? On the Bolt I can see of course the balance between the left and right...Cheers!
Just got new set double-sided vectors off my friend for 450 euro, he didn't want them because the first set caused him problems..I have a old power2max and never had any problems with it.. super reliable
Your finally conclusions are what I expected. I gave mine back a few months ago because after two sets of pedals and a few sets of battery caps I had had it. I'm done with Vectors. Ironically, I changed to the Stages L/R and it was rock solid until I got caught in the rain this past weekend and well now they are reading my power 100 watts too high. I have contact CS at Stages and they are aware of this issue and are trying to solve it with me. I owned SRM for years and rode through every type of weather and never had an issue. The save can be said for my Vector 2's. Does this stuff not go through rigorous testing before release?!
The last thing I would do after ditching power meter with battery problems is buying Stages instead :D It's like asking for a repeat. Why, oh why would you do that?
Thanks for always being so thorough and clear! Your videos are ace. I’m going to be buying a power meter in the next couple of months and given the update, I’m a bit torn between the Favero Assioma and these Vector 3s. Do you (or any others in the comments here) have a suggestion either way?
Hmmm well on one hand you have the rock solid Assiomas that have no problems and many happy owners, or on the other hand you have a piece of crap Garmin that is full of defects and has owners using them as paper weights and then having to do a heap of work to hopefully correct Garmins terrible quality control and poor design. Tough choice...
The problems are not resolved at all. New vector 3 pedals, new type battery cover and drop outs as well as ridiculous power readings of over 12000W on only the second ride. Very poor given the price.
are they still performing badly? I bought them a couple of weeks ago, but I had to send them back and I am waiting for the replacement now. I am considering to cancel it all and get the Assioma.
Javier Rodriguez I took the pedals apart and put tiny drops of oil on the batteries and contacts. I’ve only had a couple of rides since then and the readings seem a lot more stable. Should not have to fix new pedals though.
Any thoughts of reviewing the Stages LR power meters? I'd love to see a comparison on how the units compare to other power meters. Has anyone else who has one noticed discrepancies in temperature readings between the left side and right side? Mine always read a few degrees (Fahrenheit) apart. Sometimes its as much as 4 degrees difference between the two sides. I called Stages a few months ago and told them about this and they grabbed their power meter that they keep in house for testing to see if it did the same, and they said theirs was also showing that it was 3 degrees hotter on one side than the other. I really don't think this is that big of a deal, just an interesting quirk. Power numbers seem good, but its my only power meter so I really have nothing to compare to.
I'm happy to ride/review/discuss Stages LR if I can get access to one. The Stages L GenIII unit I had was a loaner from a friend, that's why that had a run on here.
@shane miller great job! I'm having similar issues with dual sided power on my 4iiii crankset. I wonder if the offset that you did would work for my crank as well, I'm pretty close to giving up and just getting an fsa powerbox or the assomia pedals
Hi Shane, Hope all is well. I'm trying to take the next step in my cycling and have some questions. 1. I purchased a Garmin 1030 and I use the PowerTap P1 pedals, are they compatible? Specifically using in Garmin Platform Center Offset and the Left and Right PP. 2. Is it a good thing to be using my Tickr X 4C2B HeartRate Monitor with the Garmin 1030. I like looking at my pedal data while riding.
Shane, Thank you for all your hard work this really helps build my confidence. I have been waiting three months for the set of Vector 3s that are now waiting for me at my local bike shop. I am kind of scared to actually take possession of them. Come on Garmin I'm counting on you,.
i have ordered a set of vector 3's 3 month ago and am still waiting on them. this makes me think i should consider cancelling my order. thanks for following the rabbit hole to whereever it leads. i am curious to what garmin has to say to that. 2.5% is a bit much for
Awesome work Lama, 2.5 years ago you inspired me to get set up with Zwift and now I’m looking a diving into a power meter! I’m running a kickr 1 indoors, would the kickr 1 be more accurate than say a single sided Favero or is dual the only way to go? Looking at saving some money where I can, but I get that it’s all relative in the end product, cheers mate
Nice one. It depends on a few things with the UNO or DUO being 'more accurate'... .If you're well balanced L/R, then single or dual won't really matter a lot. It also depends how accurate your Kickr is. In my experience the Kickr 1 with the new firmware, a good warm up, and an advanced spindown was pretty good.
I agree with Bullwhip. If this is purely a calibration issue from the factory then, while it's not impressive that they have missed by a bit, it is correctable. After that (annoyance factor aside), the only question is how well it performs. Is it stable and now reading correctly? I agree with Shane- they are a beautiful piece of equipment and I want them to work well too! One question for Shane: Did you contact Garmin and ask them to recalibrate?
How many rides after this did the power meter stop working / how many miles until you have to swap batteries ? My v3 will connect and be smoother for 1-2 rides then start with connecting/unconnecting. Do the rally’s have the same issues ?
it's unacceptable that Garmin delivers products so badly adjusted! The Vector 3 are the only PM pedals I would buy for the reasons you mentioned (plus Q-factor issues on some others), and the announced SRM pedals will be a bit expensive... but if I spent 1000 € I expect them to do their job without 20 hours of testing and calibrating!!!
My Vector 3 work perfect till I had to replace batteries now they drop how over 50% of the time during a ride. Been riding for over 20 years never had power till 6 months ago wish I had keep my money to much of a hassle.
Great work & vid shane! why do you have to do this yourself shouldn't Garmin do this free of charge? They are an expensive bit of gear and I would expect that this should be done as a customer satisfaction type deal!
I’m that guy that over tightened the reverse thread instead of loosening it by turning it the wrong way. The black nut is just spinning now as if it’s threaded and I can’t get it off . Any suggestions please
This sounds awful. I have power2max and have zero problems/adjustments. I’m getting a new bike though and don’t want to replace its crankset and hoping to go with Garmin pedals. Sounds too labor intensive. I also don’t have weights that are dialed-in/fine-tuned by the Department of Weights and Measures!
I've heard zero about Power2Max in the last 12 months. And there's been very little chatter about them in the forums/groups I frequent. Their marketing needs recalibration.
Hey Shane. First, thank you for your work, I love watching your videos. I'm new to cycling and my wife is getting on board soon. That being said what would you recommend for a solid budget power meter/head unit combo, for outdoor riding including traveling to foreign areas? I currently have an Edge 25 with no power meter and am thinking Edge 130 or Element Bolt and maybe a Stages 3(?). Thank You.
That depends on budget, features you're after, bike compatibility, etc. It's difficult to point you at any single/combo solution and say 'that's the best'. Having said that.... The Edge 1030 looks good for mapping/routing/screen real estate. The Element too, if you're ok with pre-planning routes. Power meter wise... work out where you want to measure power (pedals/crank/spider/wheel) and look into reviews from there. DCRainmaker is a great resource for feature comparisons.
Well, I got the first part of the duo. After debating over the Wahoo element bolt, I just happened to see DC Rainmakers video of the Garmin Edge 520 plus and it looked like a way better deal for only $30 more (US) and went that route. So far so good! More than likely going to pair that with a stages power meter! Thanks for everything!
Fully moving away from Garmin now. Multiple products, multiple problems. And, often, when they fix something via software you can’t put the issue to bed because they manage to re-break things with future updates. Never had a Garmin product that just works as intended. Take my money Wahoo.
I have the original vector pedals first gen...some don’t like the pods but in all honesty they’ve been flawless for me, thousand of kilometres later. Shame about the 3rd gen...
Same here, I have the originals as well and don't care much for the pod. Was looking into the Vector 3s but after seeing all this work that a consumer has to do in order for them to work properly has me second guessing the upgrade.
Why would people even consider the Garmin given the problems they have and having to do all this rubbish ‘fix’ when you can get the Assiomas that work perfectly out of the box? Power of marketing...?
What's with the baby oil on electrical contact surfaces? To my knowledge, baby oil is not electrically conductive and therefore offers no benefit in that regard. And if it is electrically conductive (which it must be, at least a little, if the unit was operational afterward), I would not want to put any on a button cell battery and risk it bridging the small gap between positive and negative terminals. There are other products available (e.g., electrical grease) that are more viscous and suitable for ensuring good electrical contact.
The baby oil (mineral oil) is recommended by Garmin to solve an electrical "drop-out" problem. It's shown on one of their videos. Apparently, without the oil, a microscopic amount of corrosion can build up and cause an occasional intermittent connection. I've not had any issue once I started doing this trick.
Thanks Shane, great analysis. So in conclusion we still can’t trust the garmin 3’s, shame. Would love the product to work but looks like a refund and carry on with rock solid p2m
We can't trust the ones I have...without the scaling applied. That's about all we can conclude. I'll post an update if I can get a hold of another set.
Shane Miller - GPLama I’ve got some data sets of mine running against a p2m, I’ll see if I have a similar issue. I didn’t analyse those files too closely when the vector was showing a max power of 4.5k.....;-)
Shane any news back from Garmin on this? Also do you know if this is an isolated incident or more widespread? I have a set of Vector 3's and I've not tested them but nothing strange has jumped out to me with L/R balance.
Hmm...battery issues...My Forerunner 735XT just got replaced for battery issues..for over $1000 you shouldn't have to do all this shit to get a power meter to work correctly.
I'm not sure mate... it's a cheap brand. If you're after a correct fitting socket, I'd visit a local hardware store and measure up what they have in stock.
should not put any sort of oil on contacts they are contact points for the battery so why would you want to stop the contact which is what the oil will do if anything clean the contact points with methylated spirits or denatured alcohol
This isn't a leg bias, just to be clear. It's an issue with the slop calibration of the right pedal. I'll beed more data from outside... but it wasn't apparent in the first set of data. I'm done with these for a while now however.
