Getting Your Westside Hon3 Brass Locomotives to Actually Run! Re-gearing, Re-motoring and More! 

Thanks so much for the comment! If you like really slow and smooth check out these little guys. They start moving right about the 1 minute mark. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Xxfx5PimEMY.html

Thanks PizzaPete. Now that the rescued C-25 is running I'm getting a TERRIBLE urge to combine it with some K-27 parts I have and rebuild it with piston valves and Walschert's valve gear.

I don't remember any brass locomotives being for beginners when these were new. Back in the early 70's when I was starting in the hobby, a cheap Tyco or Life Like freight car or a few pieces of Atlas snap track a week was all my budget would allow. Brass locomotives and rolling stock were simply out of my universe price wise and definitely not beginner territory. And it wasn't just me being a teenager, either. I knew a model railroad club member that was a 28-ish year old single and no kids business accountant that saved a year in order to buy a used Van Hobbies brass CPR T1c 2-10-4 at $750. I remember seeing new and used Westside, PFM, Key, and United brass large and articulated steam locomotives at the local train store with price tags hundreds more than what my parents paid for their nearly new cars and trucks throughout the 70's and 80's. My mom, not looking very carefully, thought one price tag on a new PFM "Crown" GN R-2 was ridiculous at $280. She nearly choked when the staffer behind the glass display counter told her it was $2080. Heck, it took nearly 10 years before I could afford $125 for my first used high end plastic steam locomotive (a Rivarossi Cab Forward, which still had the original 1979 $349.00 price sticker on the box).

Thanks for the comment! I've got an entire shelf full of brass I'm slowly working through and documenting in the process. Some of these mechanisms were so bad to begin with you have to wonder how any of these companies got repeat customers.

@@dtj9923 Your parts that you use, such as replacement bearings and dowel pins for shaft up-sizing are very useful because I would have no idea where to start with those items.

@@leisureshoot Between Ebay and McMaster Carr I can generally find what I need to get these things working. The availability of inexpensive miniature ball bearings really opens up some new possibilities. An interesting observation from all my brass repowering: If a metric bearing or dowel pin does the trick great, if an imperial part fits, great. I do find that between both systems there is generally a perfect sized thing for the application. I'm not shy at all about mixing standard and metric reamers or drills working at this scale to achieve perfect press fits or running fits. I rescue a lot of bad, wobbly driver sets with oversize hardened dowel pin axles and some careful micro wheel boring. Same for wobbly gears. www.mcmastercarr.com If you aren't familiar prepare to have your mind blown. Their selection of components is amazing. I often find bearing sizes there but generally buy them on Ebay instead. McMaster is not the cheapest resource.

This is another great online resource for miniature bearings, I use these guys a lot. They have everything from inexpensive to ABEC7 ceramic crazy stuff. www.vxb.com/

Hey Tom thanks for the comment. I am using Tsunami2 and LokSound5 decoders in my models. You're right, the PWM power control used in some DCC systems will fry a coreless motor. Carbon brush coreless motors are better than the precious metal brush motors in that department. The gear mounting issues are so incredibly common on these models. It's just become standard practice for me to remove the geared driver, turn down and true up the axle knurling, and put the gear on a wide brass hub. Eliminating both radial and axial runout is pretty essential for smooth operation.

@@dtj9923 Tsunami 2 and Loksound 5 are good for these motors, loksound 4 also. But I wouldn't recommend earlier marks of these brands. Some RTR brands in Europe use coreless motors in some of their models now. And Märklin uses brushless motors, but these are a completely different kind of thing, they need their own AC frequency drivers connected to the DCC chip motor terminals to control them. I'm a On2 modeller by the way, modeling all kinds of 2 foot gauge prototypes that exist around the world. I work in the British 1:43,5 scale on 14mm track. A South African NG/G16 Garratt, Darjeeling Railway B class 0-4-0 with coaches and a Baldwin 4-6-2 as exported to Brazil and South Africa are amongst my collection.

@@Tom-Lahaye 1:43,5 scale on 14mm track is one of the more unique scale/gauge combinations I've heard of. Have you ever heard of WC Greene who models in 1:35n2 here in the USA? He has a bunch of posts in on the Freerails website. Interesting stuff, very Mexican feeling. The 2 foot 4-6-2 engines from Baldwin are pretty interesting. I know the prototypes you are referring to. I actually have an extensive collection of On30 equipment put away for a time when I have room to play with it. Some of it has actually already been regauged to On2 or On3. I have a small bit of On2 brass and some On2 Grandt Line models. And I play with some On20 which is 1:48 O scale on Hon3 track. The track is perfect for mine and industrial tram layouts! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_VCAFl6bkBA.html

@@dtj9923 1:35n2 is another weird scale, I have never heard of it. One of the Baldwin 4-6-2 locomotives is preserved in the UK, at the Brecon Mountain Railway. They also recreated a consist of American type box cars and gondolas with a caboose. Other Baldwin 2 foot gauge locomotives are in the proces of restoration or new build, and the goal of this railway is to recreate a typical American 2 foot railroad, with rolling stock as least, as signalling is typical British and the only station building is a rather bland 1970s building without any reference to either British or American railway buildings. It's a nice little railway though, which I visited once. I also own quite a bit off the shelf On30, for use on the club layout, which depicts a typical free lance Rocky Mountains railroad. Apart from a kit built little diesel switcher body that fits on a Bachmann 0-4-0 chassis.

If there is any particular Hon3 brass locomotive re-build you'd like to see let me know. I have a Key C-18 and Sunset C-16 on the way. The Sunset C-16 fix is an absolute nightmare!

@@dtj9923 I don't think it matters... I don't think it is the model that matters, I believe it is the techniques and experience you share. I model HO Norfolk & Western. I have NWSL 4-6-2, LMB 4-8-0 , Tenshodeo 0-8-0, PFM 0-8-0, and Daiyoung N&W/D&RGW 2-6-6-2 that I want to rebuild. The one thing that is a little difficult is acquiring the lathe and all the setup pieces. Not knowing what I don't know is the hardest part (and you've already helped immensely). Investing $3,000 in a lathe and misc parts for it, plus MWSL tools to fix approx $2,500 of brass locos is a steep first step. Then I have to paint them and add decoders. :-(

@@leisureshoot Mike: within affordable limits, don't worry about spending x dollars on y dollars worth of loco. It's cheap health insurance. Value the artform. It might be an idea to look on the web for second hand copies of anything by Pendon Museum's 'Guy Williams'. When tired at night, flop into bed - and luxuriate. All the very best to you and to Damon.

That would be a great retrofit, as would an MMI K-27 box. The issue is ease of availability. NWSL gearboxes will fit just fine and work well, I have used many. Honestly, after rebuilding and upgrading the Westside gearbox works fine. The ball bearing upgrade is easy enough. Truing the axle gear knurling would be required regardless of the path taken.

Hey thanks for stopping by! I'm on hiatus from RU-vid right now dealing with a major house renovation. I've had to put a pause on everything modeling related sadly. I'll eventually swing back and do something on the Westside Heisler. The motor and flywheel is just a start. That drive shows pretty excessive wear, it's mostly brass on brass if I remember correctly. I have some ideas for an improved drivetrain but they'll have to wait a bit. The later PSC version has a very different setup I'm looking at for inspiration. I'll post something on here when I get back under the hood on it. -DTJ

The springs can be fun! The two best options I have found are: Install the driver and journal box most of the way and then slip in the springs using tweezers or a spring pick. This is still a fussy pain. Second, apply a tiny (and I stress tiny) dab of grease at the base of the spring which will usually hold it in place while you position the journal boxes. This works well but you need to not get grease everywhere. I'm probably going to specifically cover all aspects of wheelsets shortly and will definitely cover how to manage installing springs. Thanks for stopping by! Damon

Thanks very much Damon. Paul from Zillmere

Hey Steve, thanks for the comment. The C-25 models don't necessarily run poorly with the original motor, just really fast. DCC will absolutely help tune the top speed and improve your overall performance. I would definitely check the stall current on the stock motor before selecting a decoder. For springs I would suggest going with the NWSL "wimpy springs". These will definitely allow the locomotive to flex over uneven spots in the track. A C-25 is pretty light. nwsl.com/collections/screws/products/spring-wimpy-007-2-0mm-od-1-5mm-id-4-0mm-l The next step up is the NWSL light springs but I like the wimpy springs better for the C-25. I use these on my Westside K-36/37 models that have big lead weights in the boilers. nwsl.com/products/spring-light-008-wire-2-0mm-od-1-5mm-id-4-0mm-l The pilot truck is a Kadee out of my spring selection. It's silicon bronze and pretty light. I'll post a reply here when I figure out what Kadee number I used. Thanks again -DTJ

They are very much still in business with a new owner, they actually linked to this video on their page for the 305-6 gears. They are actually super busy trying to keep up with orders. I have bought a few items from them under the new management and the quality was great.

@@dtj9923 , Great! Thanks for the news!!! 👍

@@everettthepetractionguy4222 nwsl.com/ Long live NWSL! Without them we're pretty much screwed.

@@dtj9923 Have you ordered from them in the last 6 months or so? Other than stock items (screws, washers, and their grossly over priced stock gears) they don't seem interested in even answering E-mails regarding custom work. The "old" NWSL would make/sell custom gear "sticks" for just about anything you wanted. I've sent several E-mails to the new owners over the last year or two, with no return contact for ordering special products. I do get responses, but they are only to tell me that I'll be hearing from the owner soon about ordering special gear sticks. After that... Nothing. You can't even call them. The don't provide a phone number anywhere. The two owners prior to that... You could raise them on the phone any time during business hours. If have some super secret avenue to get in contact with them, I'd love to hear about it!

@@WHJeffB Well that's not encouraging. I haven't done much with trains in the past few months, I've got old house problems I'm managing unfortunately. So no I haven't ordered anything from NWSL in a while. I had some email correspondence with the new owner regarding custom work probably a year ago and she said they were not in a position to do any at that time. Unfortunately I don't have any other insights. One thing I am actively considering is setting up my small CNC mill to cut worm and helical gears. I know how to set up a conventional manual universal mill with change wheels and a dividing head to do it. I just need to figure out how or set up my CNC 4th axis and generate the right toolpath geometry. Can't be that hard. Straight spur gears are super simple to cut, you just need a set of gear cutters in the right module. If I can find the right profile cutters I can just make my own worms on the lathe. It isn't magic. You might also check some of the websites in Japan that do a lot of Hon30 and On30 stuff. I'm finding a whole lot of gear options a in 0.2 mod, 0.25 mod, and 0.3 mod. Try these guys narrow-garage.com/NarrowGarage.html.

I have a few more gears/axles that need resolved. What I need a camera operator! I'll try to capture my next clean up operation as best as I can for everyone. I may have some photos I can piece together.

@@dtj9923 could you attach your camera to one of those desktop microphone booms?

Hey Sam, This the gear I used is NWSL 305-6 (0.3 mod x 26T x 3.0mm bore) nwsl.com/products/worm-gear-0-3mod-x-26-teeth-x-8-4mm-od-x-0-110-face-x-3-0mm-bore-delrin I used the same diameter idler pin as the existing brass idler pin, 3.0 MM. A McMaster Carr hardened, ground stainless dowel works great. I set it in place with a little JB weld just on the exterior. The gear hub was cut from a piece of 1/4" brass solid stock, don't forget to leave a shoulder on one side to press the gear against. This shoulder really helps keep the gear perpendicular to the hub when you press it on. Any wobbles are no good. The Westside/PSC brass hub is 5 MM in diameter. I would try to keep the shoulder side close to the full 1/4" brass rod diameter. DEFINITELY put a light taper lead on the 5MM side to help the alignment and pressing process, otherwise you'll end up shearing a plastic ring out of the gear. The Westside hub measures 4.88 MM wide but check your actual gearbox dimensions. Using 3 MM stainless thrust shims/adjusting washers from McMaster Carr between the brass hub and brass gearbox is an excellent idea here. You really want close to ZERO running clearance on those side faces and using stainless thrust washers reduces the lateral thrust friction dramatically. I would probably bore the gear first and then match the hub diameter to fit. The gear is $10 but the brass is cheap. I used a very light press fit. Last but not least, if you can get the brass worm electroless nickel plated while it's off the loco I would encourage that. There are simply no more worms out there and NWSL doesn't make them. The nickel will really help with wear. Electroless is important because electroplating likes to glob up on sharp edges and it will ruin your worm. Electroless is a completely uniform coating. Good luck!

@@dtj9923 wow! Thank you so much! That’s incredibly helpful :)

Thanks for the comment! Unfortunately I barely have time for the pile of brass engines sitting here at home, but I'm more than happy to offer suggestions if you're dealing with a problem engine.

@@dtj9923 If that situation ever changes then I would be one of your first clients. Thanks again for the video, if I work up enough courage I may try this myself at some point.

@@MrGassRight What engine/engines in particular are you working with, what era, what kind of running issues are you dealing with? Some engines are pretty easy to iron out, others quickly become a real headache to straighten out. Yeah I unfortunately have a 1918 home that is currently undergoing some long overdue upgrades for the next few years. And then there's a turbocharged, fuel injected 1958 bug in the garage that is halfway through a 2387cc engine build. If I had more time I would LOVE to work on other people's brass train problems. House + car isn't leaving a lot of spare time.

@@dtj9923 Also working with a Westside k-37. I totally understand, house and car take priority.

@@MrGassRight Do you have a big 5 pole open frame motor and a back head with cast in detail just like mine? I can probably walk you through doing a rebuild with NWSL components and some mini flanged ball bearings for the gearbox in a way that avoids any machine work. I can help you find a low speed motor and help you calculate the scale top speed. 35MPH is the realistic upper limit for these guys on the Alamosa-Antonito line . I operate at about 15MPH typically. The BIG things you need to asses are: How well is the drive gear is pressed on the drive axle? Is it square and concentric? Out of square is just as bad as non-concentric. Are there any binds? I had all sorts of binds and collisions with the rods and valve gear. Is it properly quartered? This is HUGE and all too often the answer is no. The best way to work all this out is to systematically disassemble/reassemble the engine and test it. You will want to isolate one system and one issue at a time. But be aware compound issues do abound!

Hey Everett, I'd have to peek under the hood and see exactly what K-27 production versions you have. At the later PSC transition era you might find a decent can motor and a Delrin idler gear in the gear tower. My refence for this is an unbuilt PSC/Westside transition era K-27 kit from Nakamura Japan in my closet. I have never owned an early or mid production era Westside K-27 so I can't speak to their specific mechanical design issues. I have a BEAUTIFUL WSM Craftsman K-36, stunning model. It weighs a ton and has a tiny little 12mm Namiki coreless motor in it. The thing is severely underpowered. Very smooth runner though. Does not like 19 inch radius Blackstone track. No sir! If your locos have brass idler gears and brass worms the general advice is replace the idler with a NWSL Delrin gear at a bare minimum. I have never tried to retrofit a standard 5MM NWSL steel worm but off hand I remember the westside worm being a slightly larger diameter, not sure about the angle, I think it's the same or close. If you want to get super fancy you can send the worms for electroless nickel plating. That actually improves their survival significantly. You'll have to count the teeth on the idler to figure out what idler gears you have. I know NWSL sells two different versions for these models. Early K-27 with 30 teeth nwsl.com/products/worm-gear-0-3mod-x-30-teeth-x-9-6mm-od-x-0-118-face-x-2-4mm-bore-delrin?_pos=1&_sid=7406d30b6&_ss=r Later K-27 and K-37 with 26 teeth (also fits the C-25 but they don't advertise it) nwsl.com/products/worm-gear-0-3mod-x-26-teeth-x-8-4mm-od-x-0-110-face-x-3-0mm-bore-delrin?_pos=1&_sid=dec9cda44&_ss=r If you can manage it I highly recommend getting these gears with hubs or adding wide brass hubs like I did. The brass hub was used in production on the K-27 Nakamura kit I have here. It makes a huge difference. Use a polished stainless dowel pin for an idler shaft if you can. Lightly JB weld it in place, soldering will cook your new gear. A polished shoulder screw works too. The wheel set and gear assembly issues I talk about in the video are all pretty common on these models. If you're getting hops, skips and jumps start looking at the drivers and that axle gear. I picked up a PFM White Pass 2-8-2 new in the box this past year and it has the absolute worst wheelsets I've ever seen. Thing wobbles down the track like a cartoon locomotive. Just terrible. Let me know what you have going on with your models and I'll try to help as best I can. - DTJ o

I have not worked with the Balboa models but I do have a shiny NOS Balboa C-21 parked on my shelf. The first thing I would check is if the worm and gears are all brass. Brass on brass is a definite no-go. I would be prepared to throw a NWSL gearbox and a modern motor in it. I think a 0.3 module 36:1 gearbox will fit. Might need to shave the bottom gear cover for ground clearance. The 28:1 will fit for sure but that 36:1 reduction is nice. I suspect all the same drive train watchout issues will be present on the Balboa you find in the Westside models. Gear runout, wobbly wheels, quartering problems. Pretty common. If you plan to run DCC you will definitely need a modern can or coreless motor with lower amp draw. Keep me posted and feel free to follow up with any questions.

@@dtj9923 Thanks, will do.

Unfortunately the large 16x34 motor used in the C-25 won't fit in an Hon3 c-16. Which manufacturer/importer/version C-16 are you looking to repower? Typically you'll need something in the 13mm diameter range if you go with a Maxon, Faulhaber, or Nimiki coreless motor. Length is entirely dependent on how it's positioned in the boiler. If it's a motor in the cab type of model with no backhead, like the early Westside engines, a 16x24 can be made to work. But it will definitely stick out the back of the cab. I have examples of most of the brass Hon3 C-16s on hand. Let me know what you have and I'll see what fits.

Hey Tim, thanks for stopping by! I'm taking a break from models and videos for a while, home renovation has unfortunately displaced my time in the model shop but I'll try to answer some of your questions as best I can. Can you describe some of what your PSC K-36 is doing or maybe post a video on RU-vid? That would really help. One great way to diagnose things is to removing components starting with the valve gear and see when the locomotive starts running better. There's a lot of hard to see interference issues with the running gear on these outside frame models. My rescued K-37 originally had terrible interference problems that resulted in bent and broken parts. I also have a pair of PSC Crown C-21s with all sorts of running gear binds that I still need to sort out. Shorting of the insulated driver tires on the frame is also not uncommon. Both my C-21s do that as well. Then there's just the normal checklist of brass problems; wobbly wheelsets, wobbly gears, bowed axles, random shorts, bad motor mounts, bad motor couplings, dry motor bearings, and really bad gearboxes. By the early PSC era gearboxes were very much improved and only tended to get better. Full disclosure, I do not have an actual PSC K-36 on the shelf but I do have an example of a Nakamura Westside Craftsman series K-36, which I believe is the immediate precursor to the PSC models. I'm not completely sure how much they vary. I do know the Westside model needs a much bigger motor than the tiny 13mm Namiki it came with. It is severely underpowered for its weight. Otherwise it runs well. I have a 16mm 7 pole low speed Maxon coreless motor and a big flywheel lined up for it. The gearbox and drive setup seem to be decent. The lubricant for the Namiki motor bearings has a tendency to harden up into a waxy substance and dismantling these to lubricate them is not for the timid! Replacing the springs is actually pretty straightforward but incredibly fussy, surgical forceps and patience will ultimately win the day. The secret sauce: Take off the rods, mark them left and right. If you have flat head screws be gentle, they're easy to damage, if you have actual miniature hex head screws definitely find a miniature nut driver. Remove the bottom plate but do not go and immediately remove all the drivers and springs. Note which side of the plate faces the frame, sometimes it matters due to hand fitting. Carefully remove and replace the springs from one driver at a time using a pair of fine forceps. An engine cradle really helps out here. Lift the drivers out just enough to remove the springs from their pockets in the journals, I try replace just one side at a time unless I'm pulling the axle completely for some reason. A tiny dab of sticky grease on the spring end will help stick the new springs in place, only dab grease on the journal pocket end of the spring. Then you put it all back together starting with the cover plate. It's tedious for sure. Quartering in HOn3...this exercise can be fun...and the tools available are often really frustrating and hard to use. I've been meaning to post a video on this but I definitely need to find a camera operator first. I ended up machining my own V block style quartering fixtures and crank pin bushings to do this accurately. The NWSL 64-4 Quarterer 2 is by far the best tool out there but it struggles with small HOn3 size wheelsets. I have a 64-4 with all the fixins. It's beautiful tool, I'm not picking on NWSL in any way, it's just tough to use for HOn3 size wheelsets, otherwise amazing. If you decide to buy a quarterer make absolutely sure it fits your axles. The NWSL 44-4 claims it works for 1/8" (3.175mm) and 3mm axles but 3mm is an undersized fit and in my experience it does impact the accuracy of the tool. Try to get a video posted of your running issues and I'll see what I can do to help from here. Thanks again! -DTJ

Super DTJ - thanks for the awesome inputs ! I was planning to pull the running system out of the “loco shell” & then disconnect the motor from the drive wheel drive line gear. Check for bindings, wobble, slack, ect. Then look to why the sun-frame seems to be pushing down a bit. A friend mention is is probably the motor pushing down in the wheel “drive gear head” hence not running ! I sharing email ok via RU-vid ? Else I can post videos here, although would be nice to share still pictures Thanks Tim

Hey Pickle Jar, thanks for stopping by. My Westside Hon3 references start around 1964 and run through the Precision Scale transition period which is 1981-82. A lot of Westside imports were sold under the Precision Scale name after they were acquired. The drive technology changed a lot in that time period. In general if you are looking at a Westside model with a can or coreless motor, steel worm, and a brass hubbed plastic idler gear you're seeing a later production version of a model. If your model has an entirely brass gear system including the worm and a five pole open frame motor, it's typically going to be an earlier or mid production model. If there's a big weird looking chunky motor sticking out of the cab, it's definitely going to be a very early Westside import. My only hard reference for Westside brass production dates is The Brown Book of Brass Locomotives and I have a good friend in the industry who was friends with Dick Truesdale. He happens to have and has an encyclopedic memory of Hon3 brass imports. I don't have a copy of the Westside K Files unfortunately. Is there a model in particular you had a question about? I can try and run down an approximate date for you. If you have a catalog number it's pretty easy. -DTJ

I use carbide drills, lubrication, lots of small pecks and a gentle touch. I typically finish the bores with HSS reamers. It's not as bad as it sounds.

I wish I had a good answer for you at this point. There was pile of them on the surplus market last year and it looks like they are gone. Now wishing I had bought a few more. I just looked around online including Ebay and it appears they are totally gone from the internet. Allelectronics.com had them last and selling for just $9.00, not any more unfortunately. There was also a model train guy selling them on Ebay for $20, he's gone. Here is the actual motor information: Namiki #SCL16-3424 16 x 34mm 1.5mm dual shaft 9000 RPM @18V (apparently actually 18V motors, not 12V, explains the slow speed at full throttle) 3.4W max power 14.4 nm stall torque (impressive for this motor size) 5 pole armature I can pull out a tachometer and get an actual motor RPM reading for you at 12V. With the info provided you might be able to find something similar. Maxon 118701 is a 16 x 40 dual shaft 7130 RPM motor but it's $160 from Maxon. YIKES! It would be amazing though. 7 pole motor! If I see something else that would work well and is more affordable I'll post a response here for you. Just FYI if you are motor shopping: www.omnicalculator.com/everyday-life/rpm 27:1 gearbox x 44" drivers @ 35MPH/267.4 wheel RPMs = 7219 motor RPMs (I think it's a 27:1 stock gear ratio) 36:1 gearbox x 44" drivers @ 35MPH/267.4 wheel RPMs = 9626 motor RPMs (NWSL option that fits) Sorry I couldn't be of more help with the extinct Namiki motors.

@@dtj9923 This post is pure gold! thank you for providing this information.

@@OtterCreek I just updated my calculations. NWSL has 28:1 and 36:1 options. I messed up when I posted the 32:1 numbers. 32:1 is the MDC regear kit ratio. Brain fade...

@@dtj9923 Thanks, I went ahead and sent an email to NWSL in hopes they can get me headed in the right direction. Not to knock their site, but there is little info on what a kit vs a gear box and such includes not to mention what it is compatible with. They don't mention Balboa's anywhere.

@@OtterCreek If you measure you axle size I can get you going. I suspect it might be a 3/32 or 3mm axle and from the pictures I am looking at it has a non idler style gearbox. You can run idler or non idler boxes in these models, you'll just need to adjust your motor mount setup to match. I prefer an idler style box with a plastic idler gear myself.

Hey Juan, thanks for stopping by. Unfortunately it looks like these motors have totally vanished from the online surplus market. I'm now wising I had bought a lot more more of them. Copied from a reply below to Justin: "There was pile of them on the surplus market last year and it looks like they are gone. Now wishing I had bought a few more. I just looked around online including Ebay and it appears they are totally gone from the internet. Allelectronics.com had them last and selling for just $9.00, not any more unfortunately. There was also a model train guy selling them on Ebay for $20, he's gone." Maxon has some motors in their DCX and RE line that will work really well, you'll need to configure them with shafts on both ends so you can attach a flywheel. Unfortunately they aren't going to be $9. They start around $100 and go up from there. The up side is that they're 7 pole and not 5, that makes them insanely smooth at low speeds and you can get them with mini ball bearings. If you go the MAXON route you need 7000-8000 rpms at 12V to get a prototypical operating speed with the stock Westside gearbox. If you use a NWSL 36:1 replacement gearbox you can go with a 9000-10000 rpm motor. Sorry I can't be of more help, Namiki Motor doesn't have any real presence in the USA. -DTJ

Thanks for stopping by! I have not yet taken a dive into Westside SP ten wheelers but I do have a Westside SP #1/NCNG 9 that is a total disaster. Probably very similar. It's waiting for the back shop. The wheels are pretty wobbly all around, definitely feels like it needs quartering, and has very sloppy axle slots in the frame. It definitely wants a NWSL gearbox, with a good coreless motor and flywheel. The stock gearbox could likely be reused with a major rebuild but a NWSL gearbox is a lot easier. I'm learning that lesson right now with a Custom Brass C21. That particular locomotive is a real mess to sort out BTW. So are we talking about motor in the cab or tender drive flavor SP ten wheelers? -DTJ

@@dtj9923 thanks for getting back to me. Well I got a wild hair, and started just collecting HOn3. The SP having 5 locomotives out of the box felt like a achievable goal. Going to stick to the locomotive drive and not the tender drives. Tender drives never looked good enough. Picked up a no.1 a few weeks ago and a no.9 4-6-0 is on its way. The no.1 had a little binding and no motor in it when it got here. She rolls nice now but I have not installed the motor back. The ten wheeler kind of has the same story. Taken apart and was not run much. He did put it back together and it kind of moves it's self to be nice. I was going to try and collect all four of the steam, so it could be done in go. First time having this size of brass so I might be over optimistic here. The goal is Dcc and sound (dream of a speaker in the boiler) with some how a keeper if theres room. What might be really impossible is some backhead detail in the cab. Moving the gear box to the next driver to make room in the cab was really interesting. I am not used to modifying brass like that. Used to people snobbery of brass like it's a holy object, and then there's the "don't paint it" people. It's vary neat to an operators upgrade vs a collectors shelf.

@@modelrailroadexcursions987 The be clear on brass, some of it is absolutely off limits. PSC Crown factory paint models, BLW, and Division Point immediately come to mind. But the early stuff was so bad you really have no option but to totally overhaul the mechanisms and add all the missing details. The stuff in the middle like the mid to late Westside models is a mixed bag. The y still need drive mods like plastic idler gears and steel worms to live a long life. Plus there's always wobbly wheel assembly issues to fix. If anyone ever read Jim Vail's "getting them running" articles in the Narrow Gauge Gazette they'd know why I refuse to treat most old brass as sacred objects. It takes a lot to "get them running". Here's a good place to find some sound info, advice and, options to consider for your particular engines. (www.roundbell.com/hon3conversions.html) Unfortunately his photo links are all broken but the descriptions are useful, especially the watch outs. Don't forget to grab yourself a GE Diesel #1 while you're collecting SP narrow gauge. I like the Jonan version better than the NWSL version for a lot of reasons. With the Westside SP Hon3 models you'll run into a few different drive systems: I was asking you about tender drives with the advice to avoid them unless you plan to replace them entirely with in loco drives. The angled non idler gear drives, usually with a big boxy motor in the cab, are problematic. My SP #1/NCNG #9 has this drive and it's trashed. The brass on brass drive is worn out so bad the worm no longer meshes. This is common. NWSL makes 5MM steel worms that fit but the original Westside worms fix in place with a set screw. This is solvable with some creativity. The axle gear is not a stocked item but they have a 30 tooth 0.3 mod Delrin gear that can be bored in a jeweler's lathe to fit the 3 mm axle. They only sell it in 2.4mm bore. Allegedly the later production version of the drives are more like the C-25 in my video. They use an idler gear setup. Same rules apply. Steel worm if you can. Plastic idler gear for certain. These are very workable. My late production C&S #74 actually has a legit separate floating gearbox, not sure if the SP models ever got that. If you're going DCC the old giant open frame motors will definitely need to go. You can toast a decoder with amp draw in an instant. Cheap coreless motors on EBAY are a great option and there are plenty of rare earth can motors to pick from as well. I can help with some motor recommendations based on my SP#1 shell and frame. Use this handy calculator to dial in your motor speed and gearing! www.omnicalculator.com/everyday-life/rpm SP#1 has 40" drivers, SP #9 has 44" drivers, 35 MPH is the absolute speed limit. 15-25 MPH is a more realistic operating speed. Personally I like DCC and sound in the tender, it leaves more room for lead in the loco and makes it really easy to co-locate the keep alive units. More weight has never hurt an Hon3 locomotive. Let me know what you run into as you dig in. Definitely post some quick little videos. I love this stuff! -DTJ

@@dtj9923 My GS-6 is PSC, and it was the only thing to survive a housefire. Had it for years and never ran it or took it out the box. It got DCC and sound into it. Been a fuss to get to relax but it can make a 30" and 28" turnouts. Sadly that first link is a 404 for me. Now if I already have a No.1 how can I have another? Maybe number the little GE two instead. What locomotive do you have the standard tender, or whaleback? You wouldn't understand unless you had a good sound equipped model with a speaker in the boiler, and did some recording. It's so much better having the sound come out of its actual location as it goes by. That's why I like my 4460. That being said better pulling is better then sound in something so small. How would you feel about flipping the motors location to the boiler side? That would free up all space for backhead detail. Then fill all of that fire box space with led? Or heavy speaker...

@@modelrailroadexcursions987 www.roundbell.com/hon3conversions.html Try this version of the link. Should work now. His info is a lot easier to read on an actual computer screen. A little tough to follow on a phone.

YIKES! I just looked around the world wide web and Ebay, it appears they are now vapor-ware! There were some recently on Ebay for $20 but even those are gone now. I wish I had bought more! I can make a few suggestions that will also work just as well but they won't be as inexpensive. This was the guy on Ebay that last had some: www.ebay.com/str/sweetwaterlocomotiverepair I don't know if this other guy us still in business, his website is kinda flaky. Try calling him, he shows Namiki 1634 motors on his conversions page, I don't know if he still has them. www.roundbell.com/index.html Here is where he talks about Namiki 1634 motors www.roundbell.com/hon3conversions.html "Westside D&RGW K-37 (Nakamura). A fine model with an open frame motor and brass worm and idler gear that will wear out fast and need replacement for good operation. The best upgrade is our Super Glide Drive K-37B Kit. This has a Namiki 1634 coreless motor with a flywheel you glue mount on a bracket you mount to the gearbox trailing arm, our #305 idler gear conversion cures the gearing problem. also included are washers to keep the siderods from scraping paint off the wheel counterweights. A smooth, quiet and strong runner. Since this kit is easier to make and install the price has been reduced." Maxon has several 12V 16MM options in their catalog that would work, you can configure them with different shaft lengths. Go with ball bearings for a few bucks more. Trust me on this. Be ready for sticker shock. The Maxon products are 7 pole motors which are WAY smoother than the Namiki 5 pole motors, far better at the low speed end. DCX 16 S Ø16 mm, Precious Metal Brushes CLL, ball bearings 6230 RPM, 5.15 mNm, 2.5W (My pick! HUGE power, low speed, ball bearings, loads of torque ) DCX 16 S Ø16 mm, Precious Metal Brushes CLL, sintered sleeve bearings 6230 RPM, 5.15 mNm, 2.5W DC-max 16 S Ø16 mm, CLL precious metal brushes, ball bearings 7550 RPM, 3.91 mNm DC-max 16 S Ø16 mm, CLL precious metal brushes, sintered bearings 7560 RPM, 3.92mNm Looking at Faulhaber, their options run a bit fast unless you wanted to put in a 36:1 NWSL gearbox. If you were willing to go the gearbox swap route there are other higher speed Maxon 16mm motors that work as well. Let me know of you need help. -Damon

I have a new in the box HOn3 PFM WP&Y with some of the worst wheel run-out I've ever seen, it's almost comical. Balboa C-21s I've picked up are consistently bad. I have several different early Westside 2-8-0s with noticeable runout. Most of the issues I see are with early Japanese imports. Later models tend to be fine.

Hey Dave, thanks for stopping by. It's really funny to hear you say that. I've struck a raw nerve with a lot of brass folks over the years by making similar observations. There's a lot of denial issues. My basic strategy at this point is to only buy basket case brass engines super cheap expecting to totally gut and rebuild them. I feel less guilty about any hacking I might need to do like cutting the boiler to move the gearbox on the C25. It also offsets the time and money it takes to get these running right.