Going Over Catelyn II, A Game of Thrones 

That's a good point. What changed her? Was the only reason being that she was attracted to him? Even at Joff's wedding, she had a problem with Oberyn's gf sitting near her.

A Cersei appointment who just thought he was cute.

@@lastEvergreen And maybe some desperation for a non-Redwyne, non-Reach-aligned, non-Velaryon, non-Greyjoy naval commander.

@@joefo458 she had all the veteran captains of the Blackwater. She said they were too old. She liked him because he was young and hot.

well, first cersei thought he was cute, and he was also active, he had an appointment and was useful, having proven himself, unlike Jon or oberyn's gf

LMAO

*another job in top of his current job, as you would!

That and I’ve always thought it was mostly because he knows he’d have to live in a place full of snakes and liars, sycophants and just overall a horrid group of people.

He thinks about that out loud and maester luwin plays the little devil on his shoulder and tells him "different king, different time"

Everything is a retcon to this guy

@@ev1677 There are definitely plenty of retcons (or at least tweaks and clarifications) in GRRMWorld, but this bit of castle gossip definitely isn’t one.

@@joefo458 yes there are but he is reaching alot lately as he's run out of content essentially.

Yea and also the Jon getting a holdfast thing is not retconned either. Ned maybe considered that plan at some point but he himself says that's a "dream of spring" which means something along the lines of "that's far away and too ambitious". He might have plans for Jon and still think that as a bastard his status would hinder him. I don't think those two are contradictory at all. Preston just takes a single line of a character suggesting something, turns it into a solid canon plan and then complains that what actually ends up happening is different. Ned might have wanted to give Jon a higher status but then realized people would dislike that cause he's a bastard or just abandoned the plan entirely for other reasons.

@@baab4229 100% it's actually becoming quite boring which is ashame as I actually like these chapter read through other than him trying to find some retcon or issue with every other sentence.

Gandalf handles this sentiment with a little more grace lol

The difference is the positioning of the beard between Gandalf and Catelyn

and he’s always polishing that large sword of his

there was a rivalry but they both loved each other, whilst their dad played at the game of thrones, very similar indeed

Ned is Boromir confirmed! They do have an uncanny ressemblance

Wasnt it preston who came up with A + N = D ?

@@umwhaNot really, it’s an inherent theory. It’s in the text even. Many character within the actual story assume Ashara and Ned boned and made Jon.

@@SirBallsDeepOfHouseManthrust I know Catelyn thinks that in her first chapter. But I took that to be a bluff - if it’s presented then it can’t be true - but the idea that it’s a double bluff I think counts as a theory.

@@umwha I think Preston has mentioned it before, though it has been around for a long time. I think it is really odd for Cat (and thus GRRM) to bring up Ashara Dayne as a possible mother to Jon, a character who is among the most important in the story, at the VERY beginning of the first book. It would be a little underwhelming for her to be a complete red herring, like Willa or the fisherman's daughter, given how mysterious she is, how much she pops up in other parts of the series, and how important her house likely is to the endgame. It would be pretty narratively satisfying, in my opinion, for her to be floated as Jon's possible mother early on, only to subvert that expectation by actually being **Dany's** mother. It also logistically makes sense, given Dany would have been born at the end of the rebellion and she is about a year younger than Robb, who was born at the start of the rebellion.

@@j-rey- Exactly, I think that’s more likely. It would suck for her to be a *complete* red herring. Something like being Dany’s mother instead would be really satisfying.

I also think Martin was very aware of the semen dripping out, I mean read their reactions xD that is not how people react to simple nudity. That's how people react to someone walking around, semen dripping out, he probably just didn't want to put it in there like that :D Like if it were simple nudity if Ned had reacted at all the argument "he is my doctor" should be more than enough, he will have seen her naked a lot and regularly, like dozens of people probably do if you include servants.

Yeah I thought Preston was overthinking that line; along with many others haha.

Just one more thing...

Ned and Stannis are middle brothers - to boisterous, charismatic. philandering older brothers, and personable, dreamy younger brothers. They both had unexpected responsibility thrust upon them. Neither grasped for power, but feel a sense of duty, as they understand it, to bear its burdens. They're always going to be a little uncomfortable. They are Peter Brady, or better yet - Jan (It's always Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!). Ned really should be best buds with Stannis. But because of a quirk of fostering, quiet Ned got taken under the wing of Cool Kid Robert.

Probably cause Jon’s presence at winterfell could be potential instability. He (or his future descendants) could stake a claim to winterfell. Which would jeopardise the Stark-Tully alliance. He may also simply not want future in-fighting among the stark children. Similar to measter Cressen who looks upon the Baratheon as his own children.

@@ad1170 except ned has a billion options, warding his bastard, giving him his own keep in the long term, and finding someone to help him run in the short term. moat caillin and it's renovation. pushing the whole dream of spring into action. he likely had the money and plan why couldn't he still run it from kl or have rodrick , cat , lewin basically run it for him.

@@Blood_Video_company you’re not really seeing the bigger picture. All those options could potentially disrupt the claims of future stark children. The mere fact Jon was raised under Ned Stark gives Jon claim. Like how Daemon blackfyre looked to have a claim after being given lands and an ancestral sword. Why would Cat, Rodrick or Lewin work toward that?

@@ad1170 again Ned had a billion options outside penal colony

@@Blood_Video_company he dosen’t… not without compromising the claim of his children with Catelyn. She literally gives him an ultimatum. He couldn’t take Jon to kings landing and he couldn’t stay at winterfell while Cat was in charge. Cause she fears Jon’s potential claim and its support. I don’t want to be rude, but how are you not seeing this major issue?

No weirwoods and no old gods.

​@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin very true sir, however do you think the lack of weirs and old gods is bc that is where the andals landed first?

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobinWell shouldnt the first men mountain clansmen be old gods to a point ?

​@PfcDupuis the mountain clans don't seem to intermingle with the andals of the Vale beyond raiding them

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobinDoes not really mean that the culture can’t be similar, as the OP implies. With a different twist, but basically a harsh environment, so yeah!

She may just have mis-spoken. Like - "You birthed all my children"; "Yes, well, except for Rob"; "Oh yeah, I forgot.". People make sweeping generalizations all the time, forgetting details in the moment. That might be what's going on here, I guess it depends on what GRRM intended.

@@michaelmagnus9yes, “five of my six children” sounds clumsy and “all of my children” is just hyperbole to illustrate that she dgaf about him seeing her naked.

@@michaelmagnus9Exactly what I was thinking. Preston has a tendency to take things very literally sometimes, when they could just as easily be interpreted as metaphors, figures of speech, generalizations, etc.

We know though that Maester Walys was Rickard's maester. Not Luwin.

@@therealmarkg171 yes, I'm saying Walys might have died around the start of the war. So Luwin was assigned to Winterfell, but he waited in Riverrun.

riverrun is warm and hot and familiar = Sex with Ned is warm, hot and familiar.

💯

Yeah. He grew up in the Vale thinking he'd just be a younger brother to a Lord, with a keep somewhere, with more freedom and less responsibility.

George hadn’t got his geography mapped out yet, there was no way Dornish law was even on his mind. 😂 But even taking the point… no. Under the Act of Union of 1707, Scotland would retain its independent legal system, schools, church and so on, only losing its Parliament. But this doesn’t change the fact that it did unite with England and Charles III is the King on both sides of the border. So while Dorne retains local control over its own issues, as Scotland does, it is still bound to the overall national laws of the Iron Throne, Sunspear pays its taxes to King’s Landing and the Prince swears fealty to the LOTSK. A greater amount of autonomy doesn’t change the fact that it’s not a separate country.

I figured Catelyn might just have been bad at geography. Even educated people make mistakes.

"I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase." - Omar of House Little

...."all Inna game doe right?"

What the fuck did I do? - Ser Jimmy, Gold Cloak

I've built hundreds of fires, man. You don't put logs on until you have things going for a while or it'll go out.

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobincompletely disagree. My family has used wood burning stoves for a primary/whole source of heat my whole life. You put a log/reasonable piece of fire wood or two in with some tinder and kindling and something like paper or cardboard so it all lights up and has time to catch the log on fire. You generally just have to make sure there will be enough air flow still to help it go up. If you do it right the fire can reasonably catch within a couple minutes. Obviously it can take longer but a fire in a fireplace being lit quickly is easily within the realm of feasibility. Plus Cat feels cold due to the window being open, that’s a good reason for her to want to start the fire either way especially as she is out of bed now.

Maester Walys was Rickard's maester. Not Luwin.

​@@therealmarkg171we don't know when Luwin took over. We know Walys was the maester when Ned was sent to the Vale. But that was a decade before the rebellion. Walys could've died shortly after. We simply do not know.

We know Walys was still the maester when Brandon was betrothed to Cat in around 277 when she was 12 as Barbrey says it was his idea. So we're only 5 years out from the Rebellion while he's still there. Regardless, we can safely say Luwin was a Riverrun maester from the following: - Cat outright says he delivered all her children and Robb was born at Riverrun. So we know he was there then at least. - Littlefinger says to Lysa in ASOS that the "old maester" that killed their child is dead now like Hoster. Luwin was old and is fairly recently dead by this point. Maester Vyman, the current Riverrun maester, by contrast while old is very much still alive in the story and continues to be as of ADWD. So Littlefinger can't be talking about Vyman. - Cat asks Maester Vyman about Tansy and why Hoster would be so interested in it and Vyman has no idea what she's talking about, while acknowledging he knows it's also the name of a flower/herb (obviously as he's a maester). - In addition to the above, Hoster is ranting day and night about tansy, blood, needing forgiveness, etc., and Vyman is constantly with him during it. So you'd think he'd eventually clue in that Hoster's talking about the time he made Vyman abort Lysa's baby with tansy tea. But he never does so it's not him who aborted Lysa's baby. Again, like we already know from Littlefinger's comments about that maester being dead unlike Vyman. - Lysa's baby with LF predates the war so it can't be a case of Luwin having been the Winterfell maester who marched south with Ned and simply stayed at Riverrun during the war. He wouldn't have been the one who aborted Lysa's baby if that was the case. Ned only gets to Riverrun after Lysa had already long aborted the baby and was secretly known to be fertile enough to have another by now and so wed Jon who needed an heir. - Luwin doesn't follow Robb to war and instead stays to counsel the acting lord Bran. He also stays when Theon captures the castle and counsels him as the new acting lord. We have no reason to think he'd have followed Ned to war when he's never done so in the story. He'd have stayed at Winterfell to counsel Benjen. So Luwin was a Riverrun maester. I say "a" maester and not "the" sole maester as we do however know that Vyman also was a Riverrun maester in Cat's youth. While discussing the tansy issue Cat and him recall an old woman named Violet who used to come to the castle. I doubt this Violet woman was exactly coming to Riverrun in the midst of the Rebellion so it predates that, placing Vyman there in Cat's youth too alongside Luwin. The only way to reconcile it all is that both Luwin and Vyman were maesters at Riverrun. We do see this occurring elsewhere at Dragonstone where Stannis has both Cressen and Pylos, and Robert had both a maester with him during the Rebellion and Cressen back at Storm's End with Stannis for the siege. So multiple maesters at Riverrun isn't an issue. Then at some point during/after the war Walys either died of old age and needed replacing, was simply sent to another castle (maesters also die when castles get stormed so one dying somewhere during the war is possible), and/or Ned asked Luwin to come to Winterfell to replace Walys as Luwin already knew Catelyn and Robb and Vyman could handle Riverrun. All in all though, Luwin's the only one who actually fits having been originally a Riverrun maester. Vyman can't from the simple fact that he's alive while LF says the maester is dead.

I’d think that the people of Westeros would know the type Le’s of wood that grow in the North, and recognize if something is made from a tree that doesn’t grow there.

The problem is that Ashara being the mother completely screws the timeline. Ned only goes to Starfall after the Tower of Joy, near the end of the rebellion, and it would be really bizarre if he’d stayed there 9 months and no one mentioned it. When Catelyn gets from Riverrun to Winterfell with Robb, she finds Ned, Jon, and Wylla already there and Jon isn’t a newborn.

That wasn't the rumor she asked him about. She asked him the truth of Arthur Dayne, the fight, Starfall and Ashara Dayne.

Does she … I feel like she might have asked all the questions together- like who is Jon’s mother…i heard rumors about Arthur and Ashara … Then Ned is like never ask me about Jon ! Also who told you about the rumors?

This is slightly discussed with characters like Rennifer Longwaters. When highborn bastards wed and have kids, they tend to alter their last names and start a new pseudo-connected house. His great grandfather was a Waters, but his grandfather made the name Longwaters to distinguish his own line

My impression is if a bastard marries a true born they are out of the true borne house and now their children are true own.

If the bastard last names kept going through generations there would probably be a lot more people named Snow, Rivers etc. Like think about it every bastard would have children and they would go on to have even more children. Over centuries that would accumulate to a big chunk of the North being Snows.

the whole story about arthur dayne and how he fought him and took his sword back to starfall is talked about by the people to establish who ashara dayne was in the big picture but the reason she was being discussed was clearly in relation to who jon snows mother was, or who the people in the castle thought jon snows mother was

@@humzakhalid7902 The text doesn't say Cat asked about Jon. Is says she asked the truth of Arthur, the fight, the trip to Starfall and Ashara.

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin i=the whole paragraph is in the context of who jons mother was...the tales cat heard of ashara and what she asked ned was all in the context of who jons mother was

@@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin " the castle had no secrets" what other secret gossip could be discussed other than who jons mother was

I agree. If these events are as traumatizing to Ned as the story wants us to belief and if we are truly in Ned's head then we would know at least something about the story but it's still a total darkness.

Stone dragons in winterfell? Stone statues in the crypts. Were the old Starks Targaryens? Explains why the kids have xx genes.

Or a normal woman? 😅

Yea. They're deliberately named by maesters as reminding them of their live of servitude

whats the joke

@@Clee882 sorry its a little niche... "nest of adders" is used only 3 times in the story: once here, once by Maynard Plumm in the Mystery Knight, and once by Bloodraven in the Mystery Knight. The fact that both Plumm and BR use the exact same, rarely used wording to describe the wedding supports the Plumm=Bloodraven theory. So if you ignore the mountain of other Plumm=BR evidence, then by this logic...