Archaic English is beautiful when you actually understand it, and you need to understand it very well to properly write poetry with it, and you need to apply it thoroughly to the entire work. You cannot have “thou hast” one sentence and a “you” the next.
And what people don’t understand, because it’s not something we’re really taught, is that thee and thou are _informal_ address for the socially inferior😅 by like 1800 social status was fluid enough and people were so disenchanted with the monarchy/ruling class that it was like “if I have to call the duke who I have zero respect for ‘you’ then I’m sure as shit calling the laundress I actually _like_ ‘you’ too!” So the thees and thous are used so willy nilly😂
I do like archaic words. Maybe it’s because I was raised on the King James Bible. Maybe it’s because I’ve taken the time to understand the meanings of the words, so I find it somewhat enjoyable. But ultimately, I think it’s okay to use it. But yeah, if you do, be consistent. Know the words. And know how to use them effectively. Just using a word just to use it strips it of meaning.
I understand your point but the context you gave is totally acceptable even at the time this language was used 💀 Archaic words can even work alongside modern language, the main issue is that people use them incorrectly a lot of the time. Use words you know the meaning and context of, try to stay away from overusing or repeating the same words, and the archaic language can be very helpful with that. Thee and you were both used a lot around the same time. The important part is maintaining theme and feeling. If you start with high vocab you must maintain high vocab (aside from fillers like a, the, you, etc) You can't use a word like limerance and then be like "I love you" That's in poor taste!
Pointing out all the ways it’s a bad poem, and then challenging students to “fix” the poem would make a fun and entertaining assignment. “I could do it better” is a primary motivator for many aspiring students.
I would have the right ideas and direction to my writing and all of that but she would really point out exactly what I was doing wrong and helped me fix my shit
She would also grade really harshly lol, but I used it as motivation like "Hey that 80 is cool and all but let's see what I did wrong and try to get a 90 next time"
I really have no idea about poetry, but I gave it a shot regardless. To you who were there all the time to show how much you truly cared to soothe my worries with cooling touch to gladden my heart like a sun-kissed day But you left me like the ebbing tide drawn by forces we can never stop Without you the beach will parche And where would I find another ocean? When I look along the dried past shore I often think of you know who, of waves and of your last goodye But tears can never sate the hungry sand. You left me here to feel this way on the beach that became a desert making the one and only happy time where I can see your sweet hazel eyes and face. Everyday since I wish for the flood, and for us to wander the beach, happy and free For you know I still feel the waves on my feet no matter that you went away.
Notes Avoid "bad poems" by: 1. Using your own voice 2. Avoiding "sing-songy" rhyme/ less anticipated cheesy rhymes 3. Avoiding bad metaphors 4. Avoiding cliches 5. USING IMAGERY Compose "good poems" by: 1. Fresh language good imagery 2. Specific nouns and verbs 3. Uses hyperboles 4. Figurative language 5. Uses subtlety and understatement
@@gaugea Good on you! “Passive Learning” is really prevalent nowadays, where people feel like their learning and it feels good and easy, but in reality learning something takes effort, and taking notes is the best way to tell your brain that you want it to hold on to what your learning :)
I Love Animals and Dogs, by a 5 year old girl I love animals and dogs and everything. But how can I do it when dogs are dead and a hundred? But here’s the reason : if you put a golden egg on them They’ll get better. But not if you put a star or moon. But the star-moon goes up. And the star-moon I love.
Children’s poetry is some of the best because they aren’t trying. They don’t know how adults talk about the world yet. And frankly they don’t much care. One of my favourite poems is by a fourth grader on grief and terminal illness. It reads: _I am feeling burdened and I taste milk…… I mumble, ‘Please, please run away.’ But it lives where I live._
Honestly I saw the second poem as more of an illustration as the kind of relationship where you give all of yourself to the other person in a way that's ultimately destructive of the self. By the end the author "disappears", like metaphorically they don't exist in an absolute sense, but only for the benefit if another. But I suppose that also makes it a great poem. There's room for interpretation but it isn't so vague that it could mean anything.
Jewlery on the nightstand, and the last two lines stamp it as cheating. Especially disturbing is the double entendre on "do it" ( that is just a stretch. But it would be hilarious if it was intentional)
to me it's like coming home and hanging your coat, taking off your shoes and socks and then just melting into bed, except you love this person so much and you feel so safe around them than you remove your skin and organs and dissolve into them like a pill into water
@@aarvlo ‘Melting’ is exactly the metaphor I had in mind, but instead they used words like ‘dissolve’ to be less cliché. The whole poem is essentially a literal representation of a metaphor for the ‘unity’ of love (even though it’s about cheating).
That was my initial idea of it as well. Fully see the argument that the jewelry thing suggests an affair, but what occurred to me first was that it was the removal of adornments, ways of expressing yourself, expressing value. That it was symbolic in that. Either way it's a smooth injection of mundane imagery that grounds the rest of it. I like this poem a lot.
It's a very ambiguous poem, which is fun! I'm having a hard time convincing myself that cheating is even a coherent reading - if "I disappear" meant I leave for someone else, then why did I strip down to the nerves first? The topic is abnegation, and whether to read it as positive (for love!) or horrific cult programming left up to the reader
I've never been able to wrap my head around poetry. This helps a lot. Also, I got the sense that the second poem was a lot darker than you presented it here. The poet is physically dismantelling their body in a very painful and graphic way, all to make the smallest impression possible. Finally, they dissolve, spill, and disappear without a trace. (Presumably, so as not to inconvenience their lover with their own pain.) It's horrifying in my reading.
Yeah, I don't think "we can assume" it's about an affair at all. I think it's describing the millions of 2 person relationships where there's only room for 1.
“I’ve never been able to wrap my head around poetry.” Proceeds to understand the emotional nuance behind poetry. You got this, bro. Poetry is for all of us.
@@pbjbagel Typically in poetry that's a good thing! And depending on the subject, the author might have wanted that. Personal enough but not enough so that you can't put yourself in it. In the end it's up to the author, but like always there's bad poems that do this too
Great examples of powerful vs. clichéd metaphors. I disagree with your statement that the rhyming pattern has to be consistent. Some of the best poetry I’ve read and written have unpredictable and even inverse rhyming patterns. This makes the poem interesting, and shows mastery.
The real problem of this poem, in my opinion, it's the innocence of the autor. There is no actual problem with "clichés" or rime or old words; the problem is not having the knowledge to use them right. In fact, using common day language is, somehow, a cliché of today's poetry. Great video!
I think what actually makes a cliche a cliche isnt the amount of usage, but if it seems phoned in and without real intentionality. Like most people dont say “i carry you in my heart” outside of like referring to the deceased , its just something that people are vaguely aware of as an turn of phrase artifact. A cliche is more the idea of adhering to a template you dont actually believe in organically, but seems like a functional enough space holder. As opposed to proactively making something that is sincere. Something can still be commonly said and also be sincere. The distinction is in the intentionality.
using common day language in common times is appropriate though, because that's how we communicate. Sprinkling in old English words does nothing but say, "Hey this is poetry, right guys?...." There is no thoughtfulness or intention beyond, "these are poetry words". The real issue with cliches is they are low hanging fruit, and take the space away from what should be uniquely voiced lines.
The issue with cliches is their overuse means that their meaning is eroded and their presence goes largely unnoticed by your average reader. For example, I read the first poem, and when he got to the part that said "I carry you in my heart" i actually hadn't realized that was even in the poem. I just automatically processed the expression as if it was it's own singular word. Meanwhile, the first time I read "sheaths of my nerves" I was like ".... huh, okay, interesting."
Everything is a cliche. Just pour your heart out. If it's strong enough to move the reader, make them feel what you're going for, I think your job is done.
Its so hard to find good writing tips. Either its highschool level advice or its downright unhelpful mumbo-jumbo. So thank you for this refreshing outlook. The major takeaway for me is the the point you made about clichés and how mixed metaphors are best avoided. Great vid!
If you also care about big-picture storytelling, like writing a book or a movie, I would recommend watching LocalScriptMan Great and straightforward writing advice
"Read a bunch of contemporary poetry, not just the older stuff they tend to teach in English class" seems like great advice. But "then write like those contemporary poets, e.g. avoiding rhyme and archaisms" isn't so great. Great poets don't just do what they see their peers doing. Choose the style that you can make sing, that best conveys your message, that's beautiful to you. Don't mindlessly use meter, rhyme, or a certain vocabulary because you've been told it's poetic, but also don't mindlessly *not* use them for the same reason.
I agree. I think most modern poets seem to think that breaking up sentences at odd points, never using punctuation and/or capitalisation, and never rhyming at all are what makes poems artistically valid or deep. Really, they're just kinda bad modern poetry cliches. Frankly, I think the idea of discouraging rhyme schemes is a bit silly, and I agree with you that poets should read all kinds of poetry and explore rhyme (or lack thereof) and metre in their own way to find their own voice.
I'd like to compare it to Music. You would be somewhat late if you'd release a album of music straight from the 1800s. You COULD do it, and it MIGHT find an audience, but since then, music has gone through a whole complex cultural Evolution of concepts and meaning that you are simply missing out on. Like, even if I released a rock album, that would already be kind of weird, because rock is dated. Its not very culturally relevant anymore. I COULD do it, and it might be a killer rock album, and it might find an audience in the rock scene, but it's not going to vibe with the majority of people. It's like using the lingo and phrases of the youth of 50 years ago. It's out of date, it's been done, it had it impact and it's relevancy has faded, it has been thoroughly explored. It's time to break the old patterns and restrictions, and explore the room outside of them and set new ones.
Most people don’t begin as great poets or artists. They begin as beginners. Idk who said, but the quote I’m thinking of here is, “learn the rules so you know which ones to break.”
Also, there ARE modern poets who write formal poetry. The New Formalists are a whole group of poets who write about modern subjects using traditional forms. Poets also are writing in less common forms that were popular in other languages, like sestinas, ghazals, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong or "cliche" about end rhyme or traditional forms. You just have to do it right.
Right on, @@UnlimitedTimeOnly. It's about using the elements of composition correctly and thematically, not about which ones you use. I didn't know about the New Formalists, but I think I'll check them out.
good poetry is like an onion layered bitter yet tasty and when you when you when you really tear through them them it's hard it's hard to not shed some some tears
No idea how this old Covid-era video I made for my (then) fully-online poetry class randomly decided to pop off (as the kiddos say), but welcome poets, teachers, writers, critics, friends, and foes. Your comments are amazing. And this "Awful Poem" remains awful. :) Poetry is definitely subjective and is often an expression of one's heart and soul . . . but that doesn't mean it can't be written poorly, in a cliche, predictable, poorly rhymed, and painfully archaic way. My job as a writing teacher is to help writers find their authentic voice and write with some conviction using fresh images and language we haven't heard on repeat since the 15th century. I have been teaching poetry for 23 years. I have an MFA in poetry. I was the youngest poet laureate ever appointed in the state of California when I was selected to serve two terms (at 28 years old). As a poet myself, I host the most prestigious poetry slam invitational in Cali every December, The annual, sell-out ILL LIST. I have co-edited one bestselling poetry anthology (More Than Soil, More Than Sky). I have one published collection of my own (Growing Up In Someone Else's Shoes), 200+ poems published in journals and magazines, and I have regularly competed and won dozens of poetry slams. (I even won $3000 once at the Valley Talent Project for a performance poem in front of 1200 people at the Gallo Center for the Arts.) I continue to host open mics and "Write Night," a community writing event one Wednesday per month. In short, you don't have to agree with me, but the students who do take my class end up becoming much better writers who have ventured on to the venerable Iowa Writer's Workshop and into numerous other MFA programs. You can find me on IG/TikTok @njapoet where I often post writing tips. (But be warned, I also post a lot of fitness tips too because I was a 2x competitor on NBC's American Ninja Warrior) Write. Workout. Repeat. That's my motto. Thanks for stopping by. Metaphors be with you! #ninjapoet. P.s. You can also watch my TedX Talk about my journey to finding a writing/fitness balance.
Honestly pretty dumb. How is that better than a tide metaphor lol these guys think the more steps to understanding something the better. Nope. Being more exclusive only means you're pretentious to more people.
@jordanmartens5591 tbf the poem he said was terrible, was genuinely terrible. The issue was that the writer was trying too hard to "be poetic," though - just like the weirdo who wrote the "affair" poem.
@@jordanmartens5591wrong; you can convey emotion and meaning through exclusivity, in fact it’s the only real way in an over-saturated and postmodern world-unless you outwardly hate art. Particularities are what situate away one’s feelings and imaginations from someone else’s, and their ability to still be able to convey it despite that is also integral. Also, it’s actually specific to a feeling, just putting tide there is monotonous and devoid of character. This is coming from someone who, by happenstance, seems to use tide a lot, but not in a desaturated way.
@@jordanmartens5591Also I don’t think you know what pretentious would actually mean in this context. I mean, semantically, poetry is either inherently pretentious-an indulgent, empty reflection of a nothingness consciousness-or pretension is antithetical to its meaning-inauthentic.
I appreciate that poetry should be written with style, but when academics talk about poetry they make it a bit pretentious and i find that really off-putting.
I agree. While I agree with several of his points, I think it's important to note that if you follow someone else's rules to a tee, you will likely not be authentically expressing from your soul.
Personally, I think rhyme makes sense in musical performance, where the “shape” of the sound is important as it creates patterns. I find it strange for poetry spoken aloud without instrumental support to try having a structure unless it’s trying to flex a performer’s dexterity, like a really complex rap
@Second_Son1990 hard disagree. There is a HUGE difference between free poetry and prose. It may not have meter per se but the rhythm and the word selection are starkly different.
Dude is clearly passionate about poetry, learning to listen to critique and agree or disagree on your own is the most important part of any art critique
it's good when it works but bad when it doesn't, really I think archaic language is difficult to use so he's generally recommending new poets not to use it, because it often comes across as corny and pretentious. When it's used poorly by an amateur poet it really gives off the sense that the writer does not quite understand what a poem is
It's good if you have a reason for writing that way beyond it appealing to your aesthetics. It seems like his point here is that students often get trapped in ideas of what poetry SHOULD look like, instead of how they can express theirselves in poetry.
I take me some nice sounding appealing out of use words over street-talk anyday, it's bad when it's just used because "poetry should sound like the oldies"
@@srnabooz see, I agree with what you’re saying, but if that’s what he meant he should’ve just said that. Instead he said they were bad and simply should be avoided, full stop. I feel like those sort of strict rules have no place in art and poetry.
also can recognize that tide also goes IN??? like if you compare the tide to someone leaving you have to acknowledge that tide goes in AND out so that person must come back eventually. It makes no sense
enjoyed the video! not nearly the point but i did want to point out my appreciation for the line “For you I undress down to the sheaths of my nerves”, the term for the coverings of nerve cells are called myelin sheaths, beautifully incorporated.
Thats horrible advice. Why force everyone write the same kind of "modern" poetry? I myself identify as a dead white guy and I love end rhymes and old words. Just do what you feel like works, there's no rules. Other tips were useful still. :)
Yeah the opening two paragraphs of the breakdown could have been phrased a lot better. I think he was trying to say that you should try to find your own voice in the poetry you create. But made it sound like nobody’s voice could include old words or end rhymes (except songwriters i guess, but only for end rhymes). Like they were bad styles or some other fangle. I can literally make ongological words, and sandwiched inside the right context they will cohere in your brain. So why brandish the ones in the dusty forgotten box at the back of the armoire as defunct, unusable. When you could renew them for even just, simple amusement.
This advice is clearly aimed at a more general audience. It's not aimed at someone who has a good grasp of more archaic poetry and can organically produce works in that style.
No you really do not. Conforming to this guy will only make you readable to like 17 people. I truly hate the garbage he thinks is "good poetry" because it's too pretentious to be useful for anyone. Write the way you want to write, modern poets may not "like" what you wrote but if it's honest and accomplishes what you want to say then it is worthwhile. This guy makes me sick to my stomach. He represents everything that is detestable about modern poetry.
@@jordanmartens5591 I get what you're saying, I don't agree with everything he says, but I like hearing some of these things because it makes me wonder what the things he calls "bad" are really adding to my poetry. If I come into contact with more critiques, wether I agree or not, I can become more intentional with my poetry and also deviate from my usual style as an exercise
Rodolfo Fogwill, an argentinian writter said: "we need bad poets. Good people, but bad poets. A hundred, a thousand bad poets are needed for the ten thousand flowers of the poem to burst forth. May poetry live in them, the unnecessary, the futile, the subtle, essential poetry. Or vice versa: the necessary poetry, dispensable to live."
I watched this twice. Poem B is so satisfying and there is so much more to say about it. And I wish you had. Learning to deeply appreciate poetry requires an apprenticeship of sorts. Please give the good poems (even illustrative ones) their due !
Why should appreciating poetry require education? This just makes it more useless and pretentious. I am so baffled that people think otherwise. Does music require education to enjoy? Does it require education to appreciate a beautiful piece of art? Why then do we think poetry should be fit into this ridiculous paradigm?
@@jordanmartens5591 I get what you’re trying to say, that art should be free for all to appreciate. But you cannot deny that education is needed to appreciate any form of art, even at a basic level, let alone “deeply”. Art has cultural and societal roots, and it always has rules of some sort, which the audience needs to be aware of, even unknowingly. Does music need education to be enjoyed? Yes. Yes, it does. Does a painting or a sculpture? Yes. You can enjoy these things at face value, but you’d miss many many details. You’re even taking for granted the very ability to read. By your definition, poetry, no matter how bad or good, would never be considered art… because you need education to be able to read (not to mention language barriers). And, just as many other skills, one can be educated to read “better”, for example by building consciousness and learning how symbolism is used in the poet’s culture. This is really how humans have been enjoying art ever since it was conceived. Art was always classicist and derivative, and that requires some degree of knowledge. Without rules and context, anything is art and nothing is.
@jordanmartens5591 I think theyre trying to say that learning more about poetry will allow you to appreciate something MORE. Poetry, music and art are all forms of expressing oneself or their ideas. Using the example of music, while you can listen to a song and like the tune and beat and go oh its a upbeat song that makes you wanna dance, when you learn more about music, you start to notice more things about the song. Like oh the writer decided to accent specific notes so it makes the listener want to strike a fancy pose at this specific beat. Maybe the song uses a simple rhythm so its easier for the listener to dance to the beat but it does an ascending scale to indicate to the lister that its building up to one big finish. You don't need to understand all of this to know a song is good, but the knowledge lets you know WHY its good which makes you appreciate it more. Just like how you dont need to know a lot of food to appreciate a tasty cake given to you by a friend, you dont need to know a lot about poetry to appreciate a poem. Its when you understand the artistic choices in the poem where you appreciate it, just like how you appreciate the cake your friend gives you even more if you know they made it from scratch instead of just buying it from the store.
Great video! I never have written poetry, but I love to read it. I used to collect the Everymans Pocket Poet series, but I haven’t thought about poetry in awhile. Your video made me want to get back into it. One thing I’d add to this, what makes good poetry to me, is the main idea that drives the poem before even one word is written. From bad poetry, it often feels like someone writing with the goal to write. Good poetry feels like someone sharing a dark secret, someone trying to capture a moment they want to live in forever, or even a moment they can’t escape. Good poetry feels like visiting your grandmother on her deathbed where she tells you the most important thing she has left to say before she closes her eyes forever. It feels like what you’d say to a lover if you knew you’d never get to hold them again. Good poetry should feel simultaneously vulnerable and powerful as the poet exposes their true self on the page.
While you make a lot of valid points, a lot of your "don'ts" can easily be "do's" - The difference between good and bad poetry is knowing how to use the tools in your toolbox. You can take Van Gogh's paints but it takes skill to paint a masterpiece like the Starry Night. 1) Writing with archaic language, like thee and thou, can transport the reader to a different era or give it a romantic feel and can be used as a purposeful tool if done properly. Think Taylor Swift's Folklore/Evermore albums (I don't think she says thee/thou but she uses language that transports you to another era) 2) There's nothing wrong with being "sing-songy" - music is a multi billion dollar industry and they use a lot of end rhymes to make more catchy tunes for the listener. Yes, forcing rhymes and cheesy hallmark rhymes are cringe-worthy but there are plenty of ways to be clever about it. More importantly - Poetry is supposed to sound different than everyday conversational speech. Putting a rhyme in a sentence doesn't make the sentence poetry... it's poetry because it's said in a different (poetic) way - which is different than how we causally speak. 3) That mixed metaphor was bad, I agree, however, some mixed metaphors can act as a double entendre which can add layers and strengthen the poem. 4) Cliches are cliches for a reason - because they work. Most cliches are overused and it becomes cheesy but I usually like to take a cliche and flip it on it's head or dispute it in some way. 5) Imagery is one of my favorite tools, but it's only one of the many tools in the toolbox. If you use it every time you write, you will notice that it can get repetitive or heavy-handed.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Slicing things up into “good” and “bad” is as troglodytic as the stiff tribalism of generational gatekeepers gone by. Consider each word of your poetry-that’s what makes it good. Learn the tools and use them!
Rephrase these points to apply to "contemporary poetry", rather than your understanding of classical poetry. Contemporary poetry, the styles that are nominated for book awards, the stuff showing up in magazines, don't do any of these things. He's teaching a lecture on contemporary poetry.
You first have to know the rules before you can break them. There is a subtle difference between making mistakes and a deliberate bending of the rules. Saying that everything can work doesn't help a Student if he lacks understanding of the why and how.
Some good points, but I do think (and it cracks me up how many people are defending this!) that archaic language really helps set a mood for some pieces, for example, in more Gothic, darker, or melancholy poems. I just wrote a creepy poem for a Halloween competition and I can't imagine establishing that vibe without some of that older language. Just needs to still flow naturally and come from the heart.
I felt the first one, through it's jankiness, communicated a lot actually. It felt self pitying, angsty, naive, and cliche of course, it felt like the poet was muddled and a bit out of it, but whether that's because the poet is bad, or because the poet is good and deliberately writing from that "woe is me" perspective, isn't immediately clear. Either way the character of the poet comes through loud and clear via the poem despite the quality of the poetry itself.
Great artistry comes from living in uncertainty, finding inspiration in unexpected places, and disregarding advice to create something impactful. This is one of those cases where the irony of trying to teach artistry shows
I highly disagree. Just because it's "fresh" doesn't make it good. I like this old school rhythmic end-rimes more than this modern, in my eyes very unstructured and dull poem.
Thank you for the tips, Sam! I personally enjoy end rhymes, but I do read mainly in Spanish, so they might be less forced than in English. Even so, I did find some of the points mentioned useful, and they will hopefully push me to start writing poetry :)
In German end rhymes are perfectly enjoyable aswell. Honestly they work extremely well. I guess it depends on how flexible and phonetically complex the language is. It's true that in English, end rhymes seem rather predictable and boring.
@@carlpanzram7081I agree! In my of course very personal opinion, poems without an interesting melody, rhythm or rhyme end up sounding incredibly banal and lackluster in German, more like prose with line breaks than poetry. Also, I feel like nothing has as good a punch as a well constructed rhyme. It's like a piece of music ending in a harmonious chord.
@@cecilie... right. I don't understand why it is the case at all, but end rhymes sound cheesy in English, but perfectly satisfying in german. I'm glad I'm not alone in this opinion, because for a second I thought that most of German poetry is bad by English poets standards 😂
I think the first one is sweet. It's a little clunky and cliche, but - and I know this sounds pretentious - then so is love and the ways we express it. Even though it's using phrases we've heard a thousand times, it feels honest and conveys the innocence of love and the difficulty of putting it into words. The second one is unique and lucid, but for me anyway isn't nearly as relatable.
end-rhyme is good as long as you’re not using predictable rhymes. and it’s also better if ur not using single-syllable rhymes. monosyllabic rhymes are easier to predict and much less rhythmically satisfying.
thats the magic of universities people, you get an education, your mind will become highly untrained to beauty and intuition. Keep feeding the system, stay home, lets fight covid, lets get vaccinated, continue like this woooo ohhhhhh
I've been developing my writing style for a while and my teacher pointed out that I have a knack for metaphors and layers of meaning. Noticed how much I adore the sound of poetry and how much I love it when a part of my writing rhymes or has a meter to it. Was thinking of how cool it'd be to make writing somewhere between poetry and general novel writing. Except I know barely anything about a poem's anatomy aside from the basics. This video was such a good starting point!!!
Great breakdown Sam, I enjoy your energy and honest criticism! I personally enjoy playing a lot with end rhymes in my poetry (specifically spoken poetry), but I am trying to avoid cliches or forced rhymes as you said! Thanks for the tips!
Omg thank you for this!! I hate all of the other content about poetry that is afraid to define good vs bad or act like poetry is just some abstract concept and there's no real definition or standard, when we all know that's not true! Thanks for the clarity!
Wow I really love that second poem. Especially that third line and the double entendres with the where ribs kinda subs in for bra and lungs for legs it makes the whole thing so visceral when u use that kind of bedroom language to describe an act that is so horrific
Hm as an old man who loved language and reading, but always ignored poetry, I gotta admit that nobody ever taught me _how_ to appreciate the difference between good and bad
You make a point with archaic language and you are the teacher, not me, however archaic language is very beautiful. I enjoy using some of that language, largely because I enjoy older authors like Shakespeare for example. I write with modern language too, of course, but not exclusively.
I apologize for my impending spiel And I swear I ain't no sorry sap But I'm finna say it, fr fr Modern words are dumb af, no cap The first utterance I heard Of that most disgusting word The soured slang of Bourgeoisie I fucking hurled when I heard "Bougie" I don't intend to go on cussin' Only to contend that current linguistic trends Make me want to plunge a knife into my fucking eardrums to get anacusis Frfr, no cap bussin
@@zarki-games "modern words are dumb" homie you're the one who thinks "use modern language" means "shoehorn in black slang" and not "don't throw around 'o's and 'thee's" lol
@@user-vh5pr8lo1x I feel like it's pretty clear I don't actually think they meant throw in slang words everywhere. The intended humour comes from me terribly poking at a strawman of what they meant in a really cringy fashion. But yes, I do very much have a dislike of the word bougie.
I’ve won awards for poems that violate a lot of his rules. My rule is that if you do something, it should have purpose and accomplish something within the poem. Also rhyming will always sound better. It’s just human nature. If you want to avoid predictable rhythm, switching up your rhyme scheme can make it sound more interesting
The tide/repair metaphor was really bad not just because it was mixed, but because after the tide goes out, it always comes back. Tides are cyclical. Using the tide as a metaphor for something permanently changing is absurd. Maybe lost down a river never to return or something?
I loved that first poem. poetry is art, and art is subjective. just because both you and the book think it's bad doesn't mean it's objectively bad. I loved the inconsistent rhyme scheme; it made it have charm. the word choice was archaic but it was not too much to be illegible. the mixed metaphor point is valid tho. even if you were right about everything and poetry isn't art and has rules it needs to follow to be good as you suggest, it breaks the rules and I'm proud to love it.
I totally agree. Art is not there to be smart or breathtaking or overly intricate or even “good”. It’s self expression. You can’t generalize and say something is objectively bad, if the person who wrote it put their feeling into it, it’s art. And as you said if it breaks the so called rules, it’s rebellious and I love that very much.
I see where you’re coming from- but simultaneously I somewhat disagree with the premise of the video- I don’t think poetry can be bad objectively. I think it can be subjectively perceived to be bad- or even objectively seen to fail at a certain goal it has. But all poetry has some value to someone- and as long as it does it’s good poetry. It can be (like this poem is) not good for being appreciated in the context of a poetry class. But it could have been useful for its author as a piece of catharsis- my point being that taking this objective viewpoint is generally a poor idea. For instance I find the second piece somewhat clichéd- but it seems to really work for the speaker
I’m pretty sure he has no shortage of bad poems as a teacher; he just doesn’t want to be mean to someone who didnt ask for it, and writing a section of your book called “bad poems” is asking for it.
Oh God, you made everything so clear, I have been thinking all my life that poetry is only for people who appreciate the centuries before the 20th, in less than 10 minutes you gave me the keys to enjoy poetry again, keys that school I haven't had it in 15 years haha thanks for making this video.
"I unhook my ribs, spread my lungs flat on a chair" means "I take off my bra and lay it flat it on a chair". Apart from the image of undressing, this conveys the feeling of breathlessness.
I think acrhaic language can be pretty neat if you use it well: consistency is key. If you choose the style you have to stick with it throughout the entire poem. I particularly enjoy using a neoromantic style (reminiscent of Babits) to describe mundane topics such as "I like sleeping" or "I took a shit"
The end rhyme thing is sort of true but that doesn't mean it can't be done well. The mark of a master poet is that they _can_ write in formal ways, like a sonnet, but still have the music and rhyme feel natural/unforced. Slant rhymes are another way to avoid the end rhyme problem. One thing you missed, which is the biggest issue with the bad poem, is the overuse of modifiers, whereas mixing metaphors is not inherently bad.
Good poetry for me has two components: 1. It produces a sort of effect of a rapid slideshow of little potent images, little tastes of mental pictures flitting by in rapid sucession. What gives an image that potency can be a variety of things, but you kind of know it when you see it - but definitely, the more cliche something is the less powerful it is. Here's the first couple of stanzas of a poem by Wole Soyinka: Earth will not share the rafter's envy; dung floors Break, not the gecko's slight skin, but its fall Taste this soil for death and plumb her deep for life As this yam, wholly earthed, yet a living tuber To the warmth of waters, earthed as springs; As roots of baobab, as the hearth. It's almost like a series of little micro-daydreams. 2. If a poem just feels nice to say: if the rhythm of words and the words themselves are mellifluous. In the poem above, "to the warmth of waters, earthed as springs" has a soft waltz-like meter (an anapaest followed by three iambs, if we're being technical) and the sounds of the line are pleasantly rounded. This is, after all, art, and we have to go on feel: it's not a rules thing. Good poetry /feels good/.
Watching this poem torn to shreds, even if it was written for the purpose of criticism, saddens me. Even if this poem was not written authentically, it implies the existence of an authentic poet. In that world the poet created this artwork in order to express themselves, and I hate to see that dismissed. The story that this poem tells is true and how the poet chooses to express that story is what gives it identity. That being said, I am grateful of the poetic advice given in the video.
This remains a bad poem, but a good poet can use clichés, old words, forced rhymes and so on. Of course, this poem does not sound like you speak. But that is no reason to write as you speak, otherwise the poems will be even worse. In general, I do not expect from poetry a syntax like that of speech, but neither do I expect it like that of prose. Perhaps it is time to end this 20th century taste for all that is banal, predictable and boringly everyday. If you are a genius like Hemingway you make a masterpiece, but those who copy you make even worse disasters than when everyone practised metrics and rhymes. However, the magic of poetry is largely in the rhythm and this is linked to syntax. To deprive oneself of forcing syntax is to deprive oneself of a part of rhetorical figures that have been important since Cicero and that have their weight both in the oratorical art and in rhythmic perception.
Good poetry CAN use mixed metaphors, if they play on expectations in a clever way... but the metaphors in the first ones are so bad. They aren't doing that intentionally.
I'm pretty sure most of the people mad about him criticizing rhymes haven't written any poetry outside a public school context. And I don't think most of them have read much poetry outside of public school, either. I wonder how much of it is the weird, pretentious anti-modern art people? Cause they're complaining about him being "too judgemental" and having "too many rules" while simultaneously saying that all poetry should follow a strict ruleset and making judgemental generalizations about contemporary poetry.
Thank God LMAO! I read the title and thought oh no, I'm about to find out all my poems I wrote myself are shit and if anyone ever reads them they will think I'm dumb. Then I read the poem and was like okay, this does suck and I knew why. So at least know I'm not that awful. I have no formal "training" or even read a lot of other poetry. It's just something I do to get my emotions out. So It was very possible they just sucked. They probably still do suck but at least I know they aren't bottom of the barrel 😅
It is probably terrible, but I wrote it as my Death Poem after reading Gaijin by James Clavell. It'll go on my tombstone. "Life is Cast by Random Dice" Burn my candle twice. I have done my life justice Against random dice. So, like tell of me twice because I gave it my all no matter what was tossed my way. Idk thought it was good.
The idea that good poetry should use contemporary verbiage/cadence or whatever is not good. There are so many ways that older forms of language can breathe fresh life into a poem. Language itself is the medium here, and confining it to “modern” or contemporary form might be a prudent decision in terms of a specific limited palette, but is bad advice as a general principle. Invoking and evoking the dead reveals the life hidden by time.
totally agree, i get where they’re coming from, but poetry was never about sounding nice or being grammatically good at what you’re writing. just reaching people. to hear and be heard
The 2nd poem was obviously better but the use of "I" at the beginning of each line felt nauseating. There's a decent bit of fat that could've been cut out too; lines that could've been condensed whilst retaining all of what makes them great. But I liked it.
The annoying thing about this video is that it says avoid cliches, and always be innovative. But then all modern poets try that to the point that it becomes cliche. They try to outdo each other in “innovation”. That in itself becomes cliche. I certainly did not appreciate the grotesque imagery of someone ripping their ribs open in the second poem. Why going to this extreme? Just to show off that you are a good poet? But the first poem, although not great, has a certain sense of innocence to it. By the way, who said that poetry has to be like normal spoken words? You can flip the order of words if you feel like it. And it is perfectly ok. It is probably because of the attitude expressed in lectures like this that poetry is becoming less and less popular nowadays.
Guys. Guys, guys, guys. This what happens when the teacher tells you "it's alright, you did fine. Just bring your essay in." And next day you see him do this in front of the class. Guys, I'm not saying you can't trust them. All I'm saying is you can't, and there's a difference there.
I don't think he ever said that metaphors and rhymes are bad. I believe he says there are ways to write metaphors and rhymes badly. That's two very different things. He criticised this poem for having mixed metaphors and for their rhymes not having any structure or scheme. He even gave examples on how to do rhyme and metaphor right.
Many of Edgar Allan Poe's poems praises natures beauty or they paint gothic tales in your mind, lots of WB Yeats poetry is tribute to Irish myth and history , and Charles Bukowski's poems bittersweet observations on everyday life. There's much more than "I'm sad , I'm hurt , blah blah blah"
@bilbebop3693 I'm not a mathematician but I think the three brilliant minds you've mentioned fall within the 1% that would be the difference of the 99% of millions of poets. Using outliers to counter a generalization?
Fully agree. All this sadness, hollowness is very tiring and... is a cliche by itself. I want more poetry like... oh, not sure how to insert it here, but... I'll put a translation lower down, I guess. Каждый день я просыпаюсь Смотрю на небо, улыбаясь Кричу, глубокий сделав вдох: "СПАСИБО БОЖЕ, ЧТО НЕ СДОХ!" Every day I'm waking up Looking at sky, smiling while Screaming, having made a deep breath: "THANKS GOD, FROM I'M NOT CROACKED" It's witty, it's funny, it's full of energy... and yet it follows the rules and whatsnot of poetry (просыпаюсь & улыбаясь, both ending with -yas'; вдох & сдох, ending with - doh; 2nd and 4th lines have a little pause in the middle after a comma, so that the flow is there). I want a parade of meanings on the book's page, not gallows with authors' empty vessels!
Thank you so much for this video! I just found out I wrote horrible poetry, but that's alright! Now I can start to improve after a couple years of stagnant writing :)
Eh. I like my poetry to rhyme. If I’m reading “poetry”, and it’s so modern and contemporary that it reads like prose, I’m putting it down. I’ll just go pick up a book. Poetry, to me, should tap into the flow and rhythm of life and the world. It should almost feel like music without music. I will continue to make use of meter, rhythm, and end rhyme even if it has become distasteful in contemporary poetry to do so. Just my $0.02
Well for me, archaic language is not a sign of bad poetry because then the Romantic poets are bad. I personally like archaic language and use it myself because I find it beautiful, but I also don’t see myself publishing my work. Now, Hyberbole as a mark of good poetry? Depends oh how you use it, but I’d think that hyberbole belongs more to the camp of bad quality, but that’s me.
This was a play on words referencing time, a common phrase and the correct use of "their" and "there" while agreeing with the professor's original point. Your comment is ambiguous, so whether it's an offer or accusation, there are No arguments Here. @@lawlesslee1405
Sam, I agreed with 95% of what you said except for you remarks on rhymes. I can give you a list of many brilliant modern (i.e. post WW II) poems that employ rhymes in irregular patterns and use end rhymes. For instance, "Tamed by Milltown, we lie on mother's bed; / the rising sun in war paint dyes us red ..." This poem has its own beautiful musicality that not only carries it along but is perfectly synchronized with the emotions the poet is trying to convey. I can provide you with many other examples if you wish, including some of my own. I just now happened upon your channel, quite randomly, and I am happy that I did.
Welcome. And my point with rhyme is sometimes it is over emphasized to the detriment of the imagery and story of the poem. As long as it accentuates, and does not dominate, I’m totally fine with rhyme.
