In the process of switching over my company's app to Flutter... Managing Android and iOS sets us back many times with the speed of implementation. Tbh, Flutter is looking good so far.
I think this is wrong. Airbnb built there app on react native thinking that it would save them being able to build on only one code base. Because they had so many features supported only by native IOS and only by native Android, they found themselves writing in 3 code bases instead of just two; React Native, IOS, Android. The idea is you write in only one, but depending on the scale of the project, you end up writing crap tons of native code on each platform anyway. They have a team for react native, a team for IOS, and a team for Android. They have decided that it would be more beneficial to completely rewrite their app over again in both native IOS and Native Android, rather than to maintain the react native code base. The article is here - medium.com/airbnb-engineering/sunsetting-react-native-1868ba28e30a
Great vid. Thank you! 👍 Flutter is even more prevalent today. January 2023. My company, SkedgeAlert, Inc. went full Flutter on the mobile side, and we're starting to use Flutter for both the web and desktop. So far, Flutter has been great. One code base. One dev team. One QA team. One everything! BOOYAAAA!!! 😎🤟
Note to self: Never say anything about Apple, IOS or anything associated with them unless it's positive. The comments section feels like a yahoo article on Apple vs Google. Kinda sad that people see it in such a limited way.
The problem with this advice is that swift is tied to Apple and I’m not sure if you’re noticed, but Apple is the biggest player in the smart phone market right now.
2 years have passed, but Flutter has not really pushed away native development in Android or iOS. It gained some popularity for sure, but not so much as expected.
CLARIFICATION AND UPDATE: 1. Swift and native development will only diminish IF Flutter (or something like it) meet expectations. 2. I group React Native, Phone Gap etc ... simply because they are not one of the two native languages. 3. IF Flutter fulfilled expectations, then the move from native (Java, Swift) would happen over time. 4. I suggested in the video that Swift would die ... bad word. I should have said diminish considerably. The chances of Swift dying completely is pretty much 0% ... since apple is behind it and it seems to me, that there might always be a situation (but more rare over time) where native is required. Remember that slower hybrid becomes less slow with each new generation of smartphone. 5. I don't believe is identifying as a Java developer, Swift developer, JavaScript developer ... or any type of developer. Be a developer who uses any and all languages on a need to nerd basis.
React Native is not web based. Uses JavaScript logic and all but its not hybrid. It's in the same class as Flutter because you can add it to native apps. It also compiles to native code. Meaning you can edit in Android Studio and XCode
With all due respect, facts and statestic show totally the opssite of what you saying. What are you saying is completely incorrect. Cross platform development drops from last year based on apps that are submited in app store and Google play. Refere to appannie for the anylatic.
I admit that I have not done an extensive study of all the stats out there. That said, I still think that hybrid, and/or something like Flutter, will become more popular overtime, since the smartphones are getting more powerful (CPU + Memory), the hybrid frameworks more optimized, and so the advantages of writing native code diminishes over time. Time will tell.
Stefan Mischook Apple will keep evolving and u think hybrid will have enough time to keep up with performance ? Unless Apple help hybrid programming languages there is no way any serious company will go hybrid over natives. And apple likes clean and concise code and they believe Swift is the one to go so I don’t think Hybird will ever replace natives. They will always be one step behind with the product supporting their own language on every release making sure it’s fast and easy to develop on.
TrollBronze the company that i work for actually develops hybrid apps for years now.. same with my previous company.. i guess for most usecases hybrid fits the need most of the time..
apart from games and other memory intensive applications which require direct use of memory and gpu, most apps aren't worth writing in two different languages as they are basically web apps (facebook, instagram, snap etc), the only reason companies like the aforementiones can have two code bases, if they do, is because they can afford it... overtime no company will want to do this unless necessary as the costs do not outweigh the benefits.. most apps IMO are already hybrids, people just do not notice it because they are that good
Kotlin and Java may suffer but as for iOS I think Swift is safe since Flutter only produces huge apps on this platform. All the apps I made with iOS are 30MB whilst only 6-8 MB on Android.
@@nukeout I suggest you just forget about it. They had big threads on github about it and they just ban or ignore people that report the issue. It's a real problem and they don't care about it or even admit it.
@@loot6 bummer ❌ I want to focus my bicycle app more on India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh - which all need small sizes, performance and excellent AndroidGo experience
@@nukeout Nobody likes larger app sizes anywhere, if I'm gonna delete an app, the first thing I'll look at is the size. Especially when it's unnecessarily large, since here the iOS version is just much, much bigger than the Android version....obviously there's no valid reason for that.
Arent all languages headed the niche way? I think the tech space is still evolving. The weak die off stronger strains are born, the process continue until a winner emerges. But the winner is an offspring of the past generation it succeeded. So, swift evolved from obj-c, and hybrid langs will evolve from native langs,the evolution continues.
I agree, programming languages evolve with the way we use computers. Just look at the rise of reactive programming, because of the rise of graphical interface design.
So... just one thing I would mention: If I already know one of the two (Java / Kotlin or Swift) why would I bother learning Flutter/Dart instead of simply learning the other native language that I don't know? Most people who are learning Flutter/Dart already know one language. Sure, I would love for those cross-platform technologies to work, but in the end, these ecosystems are controlled by their respective companies (Google and Apple) and neither would easily give up on their native language of choice (opening the space for their competitors and give up exclusivity).
I'm not sure I'd equate Kotlin to Swift. Between Kotlin JVM, KotlinJS, and Kotlin Native...you can write anything in Kotlin. The same can't be said for Swift.
i don't really agree with you , even if i am a react native user ( which i enjoy working with ) , but we can't escape from the fact that if someone wants to master react native or flutter , he should have a good knowledge of swift/obj-C or java/Kotlin so he can add his own native modules and packages, or maybe open source them to help the community . one more thing , react native is not hybrid , you can say that it's 90% native . otherwise , good video 😃
yes, but react native community is growing very fast and their are plenty of third party react native modules available now so their is much less need to write native module. now most of the app you can make completely in react native without writing single native module
Hi Stefan, i m working with IOS for the last 6 years(initial with objective C).I agree with some points, but in my opnion, some things like Local Database, APIS , AI Frameworks made just for swift, makes the swift a better choice. Another thing is that Apple can kill other options, like jobs made with Flash(ActionScript) i worked with AS before IOS... But nice tutorial...
As a flutter developer (both by profession and by hobby) I can say that without a doubt Flutter is a big deal for the mobile space. I can also say that both swift/obj-c or java/kotlin are still important parts of the flutter ecosystem. Neither Swift/Obj-C or Kotlin/Java are going anywhere as far as the mobile space is concerned even if their market share will start to drop significantly as more developers release plugins for Flutter. This might all change when Google releases Fuchsia (since Dart/Flutter is fully native in that operating system) but we will see.
Google themselves admitted that Fuchsia is in no way a replacement of android. They are actually building to replace Chrome OS which receives fair share of criticisms.
Flutter is really interesting for me, but I'm worried whether I'm just getting eaten by social media, but I really find Flutter in a technical perspective as highly recommended. In our company we're trying to figure out which direction to proceed for mobile applications development, currently we're doing a native approach (Java, Kotlin, Swift), but there's been a push for hybrid development. On my side I don't vouch for Xamarin or React Native, it doesn't really combine the code bases. Unlike Flutter there is support for Swift and Kotlin in its code base which a shock for me at first. If ever we were to do migration, it would be done steadily. For now I'm exploring Flutter deeply.
This video got people thinking and talking. Great! My take - You are always better for learning a new tool (language). Programmers evolve as needed...Know many languages. You need to adapt and change with the times.
bit companies will probably invest in native solutions but smaller companies that are penny-pinching will use a hybrid. Imo native development will be always technically better than hybrid but less practical in many ways.
I’m an app developer and use both flutter (beta 1, beta 2, etc) and native tools (swift, kotlin, etc). Flutter is cool but has major deficiencies that will prevent some enterprise companies from going flutter/dart, including a lack of a full iOS dev widget kit. swift will be a top language for years to come.
I disagree with this. Having two teams, one for IOS, and one for Android, will never be a problem for bigger companies, because that means staying ahead of competition and having high performance apps. No serious company will ever sacrifice 15% performance for the luxury of having a few developers less. It's not like there's 15 mobiles OS's out there - there's two.
"No serious company will ever sacrifice 15% performance for the luxury of having a few developers less." Well, SAP does most of their work with Phonegap ... given that SAP is the third largest in the world, I think they would qualify as a serious company.
i am iOS developer. In my organization for future projects we will be using react native. I have made several prototype apps and also completed udacity certification. I do love swift over javascript, but for business they love that they wont need to have separate development for iOS and Android. It take much less time to create or change UI in react native. Using hot reloading its much faster to debug and change code faster therefore result in much faster development.
The thing about kotlin, though, is it could easily replace Java on other platforms besides Android. That's huge. It's easier to develop and maintain and could be a great cost saving tool for companies.
Hi Stefan. If Flutter does start to take off, do you believe Apple will have to counter with a cross platform development tool / language of its own? Thanks!
Hard to say. Apple's goal with Swift was to keep people writing for their platform. I don't think the language is the goal, it is just to be sure there is a flow of apps.
At the time you made this video, Flutter was ONLY about Mobile. So you were right about Flutter killing Swift, Java, Typscript, Nativescript and hybrid systems for Mobile. As of 1.0 announcement, Google is now working bringing Flutter natively to web browsers. This will also kill frameworks like Angular, Vue, React and etc. AND, I love dart language. A true OO programming with strong type, classes, inheritance, GC and etc. I'm a C# developer and I feel fully at home with Dart. Of course MSFT is also working on another technology called Blazor using C# and .Net, but relies on Web Assembly which makes the whole app very large to load. I think Flutter is to to steal the show from MSFT.
Dude you are killing people with your advice.I am a native fullstack developer have tried Flutter and built an App its cool.But i don't think it will kill Swift neither Kotlin, have you looked into RxJava and RXSwift?Can you build hybrid wearable apps?.Some topics like this one you need to host it live and here other developers minds, its a broad and complex topic to conclude on yourself like in this case your point is extremely biased, i totally disagree.
Tatenda Kabike have you looked at the RX dart code for flutter. It's great. You can throw the reflux approach that react imposed and just use RX Dart on flutter. That same RX code you can use on servers and desktops too
The only problem is if you need a library that hasn't been developed yet for the framework you're working with, you're going to have to write the library yourself, IN SWIFT.
Hi, I agree with you in so many aspects, but saying that a cross platform will kill either Kotlin or Swift, I don't know. Even if Apple no longer supports swift, they will come out with another language. But the reason why people will invest in developing in native language is simple. The native language support the new features of the OS when it's launched (and companies want to get those features out for the user to continue using their Apps to be on the edge), thing that any cross platform will not get at the moment. If I need the App to do something that requires a native function of the device which any cross platform does not support, I will then have to write native code. Great analysis, I'm with you in some topics, but this one in particular, I don't know if your prediction will be a hit or a miss, only the time will tell.
I first watched this video back in May when I had to decide which language and framework to use for an ios/android mobile app. I took Your advice and chose flutter and I am very happy with my decision and still increasingly so. Sure there were a number of bumps on the road given that Flutter was in Beata back then and has only very recently the v1.0 release. Still the dedication and speed of the Flutter development team have never ceased to impress me. These guys are listening very closely and react very fast to the needs issues raised by the user base. + there is a vibrant community filling in the gaps.
I vouch that you never regret this decision. Flutter has also a library to communicate directly with os by using native code. You get best of both worlds.
Native SDKs can't be replaced by the cross platforms, no matter how efficient they perform, you'll be needing the knowledge of proper native SDK as always.
I watched a presentation by google on flutter and at the end a guy asked how do you access APIs, and the answer was that you have to use native calls. so flutter is only for the gui, and if you want to access e.g. the camera you have to use native lang.
Whether to use a native programming language or not for a simple productive app depends on several factors, including the complexity of the app, the target audience, and the development team's skills and resources. Native programming languages allow for greater control over the app's performance and user experience, as well as access to the native features and functionalities of the device. Native programming languages are also often faster and more reliable than other languages. Therefore, if the app requires access to specific device features such as the camera, microphone, or sensors, or needs to perform complex tasks, then using a native programming language may be the best choice. However, if the app is simple and does not require access to specific device features, using a high-level programming language or a framework that provides cross-platform support may be more cost-effective and efficient. High-level programming languages and frameworks can be used to develop apps that can be deployed across multiple platforms, reducing the need for separate development efforts for different platforms. Ultimately, the choice of programming language or framework depends on the specific requirements of the app and the development team's skills and resources. It's essential to carefully consider the app's goals and target audience and conduct thorough research before deciding on the best programming language or framework to use.
Very interesting points! I also believe Flutter will be the future. But as for now, companies - especially big tech companies - still hire separate Android and iOS developers instead of using frameworks. In fact, Airbnb tried Reactive Native and rolled back to native development.
Poor Kotlin. Should wait till Google say they gonna use Dart as official language for their next gen hybrid OS Fuchsia. Guess Kotlin still running on JVM is the reason why Google is pushing Dart now. You knows, Google just lost a 9B lawsuit to Oracle.
Or maybe it's just that they're avoiding JVM for non-political reasons. They have a new platform, and an opportunity to start over with a language that's well-adapted to the operating system. Specifically, Fuchsia is a real-time operating system, so tools used for building apps must be chosen wisely. Kotlin/Native is under heavy development, and Kotlin/JS is stable, so Kotlin isn't restricted to JVM only.
Rust, golang and cpp are currently the only other languages allowed to be run inside Fuchsia. You can see this in the source code. That's why flutter plugins exists and is designed to be be used to access platform services via swift, Java or koitlin. I am building all my business logic in rust and golang in order to ensure it's future proofed to be able to run on all mobiles, desktops and fuchsia.
How much of the web is going to be Flutter based too once they finalize the Flutter for web support? They engineered Dart for the web originally, to replace Javascript for the web, right?
Dammit man! I was studying the stanford course for IOS 11 and i open this¡¡¡ I think you are right except with the thing that Apple never cared about windows and what happened?? The market told eveyone that Apple was going down but surprise now is one of the top companies in the world. I am not an apple apassionate but I am sure that these guys will tremendously up the performance value for apps made in Swift.
meitoli: Flutter is in beta and literally nobody is using it for any serious kind of project. When you look at jobs, there is literally zero jobs for Flutter devs, there is however sizeable demand for Swift developers (and even Objective C). For beginners, Flutter is a terrible choice. If you're starting with development, definitely choose something tried and tested and that is actually used in the industry. I'm pretty sure that when you learn just Flutter and nothing else, you'll find it impossible to get a job (unless you have skills in other types of development)
vyli1 thank you. I installed the stuff and now learning dart. It’s very impressive the way the unique code shows in both devices(iOS and Android). I know there couldn’t be demand of jobs on this but I think that if google(giant Corp) is throwing away java and kotlin and putting all that money and resources for this I think it will be in market soon and for long time
I really like your optimism but I think its too early to tell because yeah hybrid apps are becoming popular but the problem is native development is also evolving very fast and I have a conviction that hybrid apps can never catch up unless Google and iOS work together. I know theoretically you might be able to build the native features in hybrid apps. In reality its not the case, sometimes even simple things can be pain in the rear. Another important point is that for large organisation choosing cross platform framework makes sense because they can put missing pieces by themselves, they have enough engineering power. Just like Airbnb who developed majority portion of the map module of the react native. For a small to medium company it does not make sense, they just don't have enough resources. Another important thing, the history of hybrid apps is not very promising from business and development point of view. Clients get terrible user experience and developers had terrible development experience. Last but not least, in order for flutter or any cross platform platform to take off, Google or iOS say "ok from now on we will be moving to x framework, x will be our official platform to develop apps for appstore or playstore"
I'm a bit sceptic about Flutter and the reason for it is being, that it is written in dart, I remember reading somewhere, that Google already replaced some of its internal implementation of Angular, which was written in Dart, for Typescript version of Angular. IMHO Flutter would be pretty successful if they would go for Typescript, which appeals to me more and apparently on the most wanted dev tech list according to survey on Stackoverflow. I would would rather go for success of something in a direction of React Native and React Native for Web, single code base for mobile and web, although I'm rather a Vue fan, due to its simplicity and ease of use. Completely agree on Swift, I love its syntax but I also think it will end up being a niche language in the future.
Google is implementing Swift support on Fuchsia, so my guess on that is that Google wants to have an Android replacement over time that can accept most of iOS code without changes, as well as existing APK dev etc.
Fuschia is gonna use (already uses) Flutter. Update: Oh sorry, I just saw that your comment was 3 years ago. I hope I was a time traveler to tell you about Flutter in advance, lol.
If you take something from this vid is definitely always be improving your skills and stay informed on new tech.. Apple may say flutter is the new black or may say nope like flash.. remember that? Keep and open mind and an active brain.
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In the end it all depends on what your use case is. - If your app needs "simple" functionalities and no low-level control, a hybrid app is probably the way to go. - If you need control over the more low-level stuff, in most apps, you can't get away with such a framework as Flutter. Or any hybrid framework. In case of Flutter, you'll have to write bridge code for the specific platform. I am not saying it is impossible, but it is kind of removing the benefit of using a hybrid framework. - Also realise that iOS and Android have different UI principles. You will probably have a different UI for both of the frameworks. This leads to two platform specific code (and UI-tests). It is not a matter of using one thing over another. Always keep in mind what your goal is and use the right tool for the job. In software engineering there is no silver bullet. You make a decision based on the pro's and con's of a tool/framework and choose based on what you need.
I get your point, but I disagree. When you say that Swift/Kotlin is going to "fall", you're missing the point of these languages. They're not strictly bound to mobile, there are other gigantic non-mobile related content that you can make with these languages. For instance, Swift is now starting to be used for backend in enterprise solutions, and I won't even get into the macOS, watchOS, tvOS, etc.
I made my first steps in mobile app development with React Native and was amazed how fast I was able to get something done only knowing Javascript (not even ReactJS). I was hesitant with Flutter because how bloated the code looks compared to React Natives JSX. It‘s not that bad after getting familiar with Flutter and I now prefer it over React Native.
Dart compiles down to C++, which then renders to the native device's canvas... basically making it a 2d game engine. In fact, it's likely very similar to Cocos2d-x because of that.
@@nukeout I doubt it. You won't get the ensured draw hooks but android native c++ is what unity uses. In ios it just directly renders draw calls to the canvas. In terms of c++ there is no interpretation layer
Swift for sure is not dying on iOS (IDK why he would even say this, if he has ever worked in a startup with an iOS app in the last 3 years). I have worked in startups and as a contractor, and I can't count the amount of clients I've had requesting me to port their PhoneGap app to native Kotlin / Swift. Never even heard of a client asking a native app to be ported to hybrid, Ionic, React, etc. Swift is also growing on the server thanks to IBM, and also Perfect, and Vapor. If you are making a simple enterprise app for warehouse inventory or accounting, maybe a web app is the way to go, but anything more complicated and needing performance has to be native. I mean, is Stefan even considering games? Thats a huge portion of iOS App Store revenue and its 99% ObjC, Swift, and C++. Can't use React, PhoneGap, Ionic for that. I work with IoT and Bluetooth thats pretty much 100% native, no way you can build PhoneGap apps for BLE. Again, look at all the top apps (Minecraft, Twitter, Uber, Google) and its always a native language thats being used for their apps. I have an Open Source organization on GitHub dedicated to Swift libraries on ARM, specifically Linux and Android (since December 2015). github.com/PureSwift For working with IoT and Bluetooth Low Energy, where we don't have JSON, but work with raw bytes, using Swift on the stack with Structs and Protocol Oriented Programming gives us crazy performance compared to ObjC or Java Objects (for encapsulating data). We could possibly share coding using JS, but the APIs for Bluetooth on browsers is not stable (very new) and the performance will suffer.
This is the first time I disagree with what you say. Native app development for Apple will never die as long as Apple is around - nothing can come close to what native dev on iOS has to offer. Sure you can use cross dev tech to create apps but these apps will always be half-assed half-baked half-quality half-class apps no one will really enjoy using. There's magic in Apple tech and you can only achieve that magic using native development so that's why it's safe to invest in Swift if you are into Apple and like what they are doing and want to be a part of it.
Android tablet is dead, Android wear is dead - what cross platform development are we even talking about? There's a whole enormous Apple ecosystem and there's basically an Android phone. That's it. Cross platform dev was a sweat dream from the beginning of time, but throughout the history native development always wins. No chance cross dev can give the experience a native app can. That's why people use apps on a phone instead of web apps in a browser. Flutter basically is yet another browser in that sense. Thus Flutter on iOS will be a niche not Swift.
Dmitry Labetsky if you are a Swift developer you might like Kotlin. I'm a full time Android developer that never wrote an iOS app until I transitioned from Java to Kotlin. I had never used Xcode, and knew very little about the iOS frameworks. But Swift is pleasant and similar to Kotlin in many ways. Give it a try!
I have nothing against Swift or Kotlin, they're both pretty cool languages, even given they both inherited technical baggage from their predecessors. Dart is not quite as nice as either of them, as a language, yet I have chosen to learn it. Why, because I will be able to use one language for all of web, android, ios, and potentially even server side, and I am a one man shop. Here's an idea: all of the above have a bright future, for different reasons and for different use cases.
Love your stuff! Very helpful in keeping me up to date with what can very often seem like a world where TMI overload can be disheartening. Keep these coming please!
Flutter, hold on! I am coming for you :) Get ready to be learned very soon ^^ Thanks for the video Stefan, my mind is clear with mobile development now. I feel confident again on my development learning journey. You are the man!
Also check what you job market looks like, see where the jobs are. Every region of the world is different. Regardless, if you learn say the web stack and you find you need to learn Java ... it won't be too hard.
Thank you Stefan. Honestly, I haven't checked the market in my region. I will definitely follow your advice. On the other hand, I really need a tool to make educational mobile apps because I can create some softwares for desktop but I don't know how to do it for mobile. I had to make a decision for using phonegap or react. I even thought to learn swift and kotlin at the same time :P I heard about flutter and googled it before but I didn't understand what it was to be honest ^^ I will test flutter and go for it if I like :) I will test phonegap if I fail with flutter. Btw, do we need to know Node JS to start learning react native?
I saw it flash by, you triggered me as well. LOL! I can't wait for your flutter tutorials in the future. I'm finishing up on CSS. So much material, I have to review. But, very well presented, in a manner which holds my attention.
what you will do, if apple stops supporting hybrid apps in future ? From my experience native apps are much better than cross platform, since I worked on both
Yep. I should have been more clear ... I said many/most larger companies are moving to non native. I did not mean to imply that all development is non native. I think that IF, IF Flutter and other similar products meet expectation, the shift could happen.
I don't think that Kotlin will be displaced by Flutter even I use it and it feels very smooth and clean, because the Kotlin platform it is targeted not only on Android but Web and native development using LLVM. Being raised by the JVM gives to Kotlin and incredible power to overcome Java and its own disadvantages such as Boilerplate code and too much verbosity. Maybe Swift will fall down, who knows, but Kotlin it is going to take over the web platforms because you can actually write the server side code and front end code with the Kotlin stack.
Reminds me of the Intel Itanium . . . Best ISA any processor could use. It had all these amazing features. However, because people did not want to have to recompile their code, the Itanium was a flop and AMD won, turning the x86 to the x64.
6 лет назад
What about PWAs for 100% web app? I am currently a student in the Mobile web specialist ND at Udacity and PWA are going to be big. Are you teaching that at StudioWeb ? Cheers!
Modern game development is a good forerunner to the world of mobile development. Your predictions may be correct... but you should probably give reasonable time frames (hence all the blow-back). My personal take is that we have at least 5 more years of solid native market share of > 50%... maybe even 10-15 years. Then again, it may never happen given the fact that Apple has shown every indication in the world that it only deals with closed systems. They loose a certain amount of control once a 3rd party framework is the leader in the development tool chain. They will probably never let that happen unless a court makes them.
How do companies make profits out of producing frameworks and languages like Flutter, React, Angular etc? For Swift, I see the motivation for Apple. But others?
i think native development still holds strong, it might be that there are more hybrid or non native apps that dominate the dev area, but i highly doubt that any of those non native apps are anywhere near the top, since native development still has its own advantages to be able to implement funcionalities that non native environments have to keep up with
I love flutter and I'm creating my business with it but I'm learning Swift to become an iOS developer too. If apple sees Flutter as a threat, it'll act in a way to hurt or discourage the use of flutter for iOS. Learning SwiftUI is really (I mean really) similar to Flutter and it has access to all the goodies of iOS: AR, ML, Maps, etc... Ultimately, using Flutter to program on android and recreating the platform with SwiftUI won't be that hard or difficult since you can use almost the same layout structure. Now, if Flutter manages to offer all these things, It'll certainly beat every platform out of the park.
Actually, there are 3 types of apps: native (swift, objective-c, kotlin, java), cross-platform compiled to native (Xamarin, Flutter, React - at least at UI level), web-wrappers (PhoneGap and so on). Wrappers will most likely die when Apple start supporting Progressive Web Apps. It is very strange to me that you name Xamarin, Flutter and PhoneGap as one class of frameworks. I am currently learning Xamarin and considering Flutter (their approach with native rendering instead of using native controls looks very promising). In my opinion Apple can block web-view based frameworks and does not lose much - maybe it will be even good for App Store to wipe those low-quality apps.
I understand that but in my opinion, this is a bit confusing especially when making predictions about the future of platforms. But thanks for the video!
So facebook developed React Native but its mobile application is developed using native environment. It could be a way to go for building an app on a budget but I can't really see third party apps competing with the native ones. Have you ever made same app on native and third party framework and compared each other? Trust me, you will find a lot of difference. And when we have apple which is so strict with the usageDescription, its just a matter of time before they end their support for third party apps. Just saying.
very good, but I think you forget apple loyalty, I think apple won't let its developer get upset by this techs, when its come to dropping swift with another language, apple could make some changes to its hardware or just, a new rule that force people to write their iOS app with swift, dropping swift means no new job for iOS developers or even native android developers, so I think apple won't let this happen
Apples and oranges. For example, my friend showed me an ML app he is building, where the front-end and the web app are created with React Native + Rails + Python for the ML. I believe he is using Tensor Flow for the ML.
To make a broad statement like "Companies are not maintaining native code bases" needs more backup than just "I heard some people saying". The problem with the cross compiling platforms is that you need to trust the vendors of them. Because at the end of the day they'll need to compile down to swift, objc, kotlin or java to run on Android and iOS. My experience is that we see these frameworks come and go, and if they go it's REALLY bad for both the company who invested in them, and the developer who learned how to use them. As a developer, I'd rather know how to write Kotlin, Swift, Javascript, PHP, Java, C, C++ than I'd want to spend time learning frameworks that rely on maintenance out of my control.
.... Just go look at the stats. Well, frameworks come and go, programming languages come and go. But approaches (ex: native, vs non-native) persist in one form or another.
Yes, I agree, but the form in which they persist are pretty important. I can't do flutter+dart just because I can do QT for instance. Or react native for that matter. I'm not wholly against frameworks, I just think it's an important point to remember, that they tend to have shorter lifespans than programming languages. At least if you look at recent javascript history. That's not as true for PHP and Python though.
What about Kotlin native? Not in disagreement, Flutter seems like a great way to go and I've also heard that a lot of people are moving in that direction but I'm under the impression that the benefits may be able to be met by Kotlin native if things go well for JetBrains. Just something to think about.
I dont have experince as you Stef to predict some things like you, but I think Swift wont fall. Here's why: 1) Apple. Its Apple's language. Apple aint gonna let their language fail for many reasons, one of them is their Ecosystem where many apps are written in Swift. PS. Just look at the Apple Campus they are building. Who knows how that is gonna boost everything at Apple including Swift. Maybe Swift is going to be leading programming language, or be what I am sure only better, but who knows! 2) There are many app that only function on iOS and MacOS (Like Panic apps, they are so good apps to be honest, Coda one of great code editors, try it) or their first launch as of app is in Swift same as Instagram as far as I know, when Instagram was created in was 2010 and it was exclusive for iOS (althought its written in obj C but you get the point). 3) IBM Swift on server. Althought it is still in the lab, it shows a great potential. I agree most web servers these days are strong but, if you could make a language fast, nimble, strong, powerfull and reliable like Swift that can have impact on Earth ecosystem as that will be our thing in the future. Less servers but powerfull and with a speedy language can reduce all the shit that we humans use to power up. We could use solar panels in Sahara to power whole EU but noo lets toxic up our world but thats another topic. About saving Earth with faster language on web server is said by Rasmus Lerdof, guy who invented PHP, on conference about PHP 7 in Viena. For me any framework is gonna fail and fade. For instance, look at Bootstrap, now we have CSS Grid system that is sooo nice, believe oh i cant say enough nice words for such great thing. Bootstrap might fall now but we shall se. Languages come and go, but some doesnt. Look at C. But as Stef said, and I like that, WHEN YOU LEARN BASICS OF PROGRAMMING its easy to transfer to another language. Girls and guys, dont have one source of information, have more. Stefans channel is one of the greatest and non-biased source of informations i have ever seen. This is my opinion! Have a great day! :)))))
I'd say I can't wait for Bootstrap to die, but then I'd be waiting for people to know how to do their jobs and I ain't got that kinda time (being mortal)
i actually think the whole apple company will go down. they did absolutely nothing interesting after Steve jobs death, i know it is hard to accept for apple fans and i know apple is amazing but it wont last much. the Master Mind is not there any more to show them the right path to go and honestly they don't have any clue. so i think 10 years from now no one even care to remember there was a company named apple. technology advancement is pretty fast and apple cant keep it up.
Hossein Ghanaati As long as Apple continues to produces quality hardware and software and as long they hold belief in Apple they will not fail. I am an Apple fan. I am from Serbia where average salary is 400$ and i equiped myself with Apple products. Not new, but used and it works fine like new! And I liked everything from Apple. But of course they can fail if they lose that in what they believe and what they do, so Apple will be gone but I think it wont come to that. :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Flutter is for Dart what Xamarin is for C#. So which one do you think will prevail in the long run? Coming from the C# camp, I was thinking about taking up Xamarin because I am attracted to this idea of reusing as much as 90% of the code base across all platforms. But now you have made a difficult decision even more difficult. Thanks for that one! I also realize that native stack development is going down and web stack development is going up. I want to be on the sinking ship as much as the next person; I don't! Given your previous prediction record, do you think that Dart as a language has a future? Oh you mighty programming lords who are in the cloud, please advise this tormented soul.
Not enough data out there yet to say anything about Dart. As I say so often, just work on the fundamentals, and learn whatever you need to learn on a need-to-nerd basis.
ملخص الفيديو 8 دقائق و 43 ثانية, الشركات لم تعد كما كانت في السابق، الشركات أصبحت توظف مبرمجين يعملون بـفريم وركس مثل Flutter, React Native, Ionic, ...etc الشركات تهتم اليوم بتطبيقات الهايبرد بدلاً من النايتف، لأنها أرخص ثمناً و لأنها تُلبّي الغرض اللازم في99.9% من الأحيان.
I agree with you on swift 100%, not on kotlin though. It has huge potential on java based servers, spring and such, since you have access to all java libraries and its run on jvm, while providing cleaner more expressive code.
I'm a Swift OBJ-C developer (and a few more...) and I am just turning to flutter, because I can't handle two frameworks it's too much to develop. Cloud Coredata is shit now that you have Real time database like Firebase and you always have to go cocoa pods to integrate JSON into CoreData. Apple did a good job with xcode and dev tools, but unless you want to develop a very specific super duper app . I agree that swift is dead, you can't impose a language unless you have advantages on using it, but no, swift 1 was a joke, swift 2 was a debug , swift 3 and 4 are mature but what are the advantages in terms of speed development?
I abandoned react native in favor of two native apps. (and I'm a react nutjob). both native platforms have matured so much that it's saving me time and especially pain/effort. both native platforms now let me code in the declarative ui style that react has.
Dear Stefan. I have a strategic question for you: If your predection proves to me correct, what about those who wants to write high performance apps for IOS? Will Apple end swift and continue with object c? The answer is no. We still need swift for high performance apps. I guess that the future photoshop program for mac will be written in swift. Your opinion please 😌
Don't see the point of native apps other than for a small proportion of solutions. Javascript has become so efficient that you can develop good games and simulations with it. Progressive Web Apps seem like what eveyone ever wanted, especially managers, because you can deploy web content in so many different ways. To be honest the software industry has learnt nothing in the last 30 years other than being amazed at its own ability to pour vast amounts of cash re-inventing the wheel.
Web assembly is also another technology that enables writing web apps with native performance with Rust, C++ and Kotlin preview. Also all your discussion is about client side. Kotlin is being used also on server side.
great take on swift, although i don't think you're right about kotlin. that's because while it's true that kotlin in mainly used in native apps for android, there is another usecase. the other usecase for kotlin (and scala) is to be java code except in a much nicer language. kotlin is especially well suited for this since it's fully compatible with java (as in you can have kotlin and java next to each other in the same project with no problems what so ever), and there is basically no learning curve if you already know java. So to me as long people are writing java code, there will be people writing kotlin. As far as the future of java is concerned, going by job applications and github commits, there are still a lot of people writing new java code. what this means is that not only will kotlin find it's way into many new project, but people are going to have to write kotlin to maintain these projects. so java isn't going away, and since kotlin is basically java but a better language, it isn't going away either. also as an aside, the kotlin team recently added js as a compile target. it's still experimental, but i guess that's another potential use for kotlin.
The idea behind Flutter is actually one I searched for and somewhat even found solutions for. The idea is to take the principles already in use in game engines. I started a hugh project years ago and choose xamarin to be able to share as much code as possible on all plattforms,, but that was mostly in the business logic. The UI still is largly dependend on the platform if I don't want to have linux and apple user throw up a little in their mouth when they get a windows like application and similar with the two main mobile platforms. What I found was a Material module for the Unity engine and I would have gone for it wouldn't it be for the complex licencing of the engine. I really wish they extend Flutter for use with desktop systems, they already started with the browser.
React-native is not a hybrid technology like PhoneGap. It’s more in the category of Flutter since it maps down to native views. I’m not so sure swift will go away although I agree many large companies like Facebook and Amazon have moved away from native. Others like Netflix are still mostly on Objective-C for IOS so they might skip to a cross platform solution when it no longer makes sense to stay on Obj-C. Who knows. I still think having two mobile teams is the better way to go. I have worked in both environments. If there were 4 or 5 platforms, then maybe what you’re saying would make a lot more sense. As soon as you want to do something that not main stream or take advantage of new API’s like ARkit, etc, the cross platform get buggy and have gaps. IMHO.
Agreed, Flutter is so cool that i can do things in no time. Besides of JavaScript, written code for an application matches syntax and do exactly what you expect from it, which is not the case in JavaScript.
Ok I guess most dislikes are from iOS devs or just Swift fans, but think for a second, it makes sense different code bases is a mess, why would you want to spend twice as much on devs if you can have just one and be more competitive as a businessman. The performance trade off is not that big and most apps really don't require a lot of resources.
Nah. You got it wrong buddy. Your point of view is only business based. You are thinking in a way of saving money and not investing in hiring native developers. The fact is that apple's largest revenue comes from iphone and they have heavily invested in software development and Swift. Long story short native app development is not going anywhere. Specially Swift. Many companies are copying Apple. From objective c to Swift. And from Java to Kotlin, it's all Technology evolution.
