Surprised you didn't talk about the really sus code on the gloomwave that was decoded. It literally alters control stick movements to perfect wavedash and ledge dash by having lockouts on inputs which is pretty much cheating Someone did a video on it
Cody was gassing up his controller on stream and mentioned this. I can’t believe how tone deaf that man is. I think he said something like “it predicts what I wanted to do.” YIKES
@@IveGotTheGap extremely hypocritical for a man who claims competitive integrity trumps accessibility. Cody doesn't care about competitive integrity; he cares about maintaining the inaccessibility that gives him a competitive advantage.
@@IveGotTheGap yoo i remember that lol, when he said that i was like "wtfff? that sounds like cheating? dude just dropped this on stream just like that? wtfff is going on with controllerrrrs,,," out of all the top players he had to say it lmaoo.
Probably outside the scope of the video, but calling phob a "vendor" kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I think the phob being an open source design that you can build for yourself for ~$100 is a big consideration for people, compared to the shadowy goomwave cabal
@@Dwiz26 The Phob isn't vended, the phob group doesn't sell or copyright/patent their design. It is an open source design that anyone can produce or modify on their own. They simply are not a vendor
@@pauldaulby260o you order it using files that are open source from a motherboard manufacturer, but it costs more that way than buying one in places like Etsy
I get that the controller conversation is exhausting but legalizing everything would just make the gap between the best controllers and the average person even worse
@@MasaKaneshiro not sure if you got that from my comment or if you’re just adding to the convo but I don’t disagree. Goomwave however gives a clear advantage that’s not achievable on standard gcc. I don’t think controllers should be able to exceed a perfectly accurate gcc.
@@badfriends5206hey don't care about controllers, only software changed within the game itself. These controllers are doing their own thing outside of the game so Nintendo literally don't care. 1.03 being put in non stealthily would bother them pretty quickly on the other hand. Same reason why tourneys somewhat partnered with Nintendo don't freeze Stadium. Edit: In no way saying that partnering with Nintendo is good, just talking about the changes they care more about stopping in the past.
this all seems reasonable except the phob can't follow the boxx's rules on analog trigger values. as an open source project it's up to the community to decide for phob, and hopefully settle on limits that other controller producers can agree to
Yeah, they should all be the same, but the way it was presented here sounds like 93 is the only correct value. Anyway, it's not a big deal. BOXXs could get an update if the community decides other values are the right values.
1.03 should just be make the standard cuz all this controller stuff is getting out of hand and there is no way the community will settle on anything regarding legality of certain modifications
You have a disclaimer at the front that says ”There are no business interests influencing the opinions in this video” but how can this possibly be true since you sell a competing product? If anything, the disclaimer should be something like ”For full disclosure, I sell a competing product.” I think you should consider reposting as your disclaimer is pretty much opposite of what it should reasonably say.
I dont think boxx is a competing product because thats a completely different controller product. If he was talking about other boxx type of controllers, sure, but i dont think boxx is competing with phob/goomwave and other gamecube controllers.
No business interests? Good vid and I see what you’re getting at, but that part felt weird from the creator of the main competitor to the controllers discussed
+1. Persuasive video, presenting the authors opinions in what they believe should be standard. Interesting? Without a doubt. Neutral and without bias? Not quite.
furthermore, every hax video makes the implicit assumption "the goal should be controller/box parity" which is immediately *hella* biased. is that the goal?? i think the goal should be for boxes and goomwaves to be hard banned.
Boxx isnt a main competitor to phob or goomwave. Why would boxx compete with gamecube controller users that have no intention of switching over. Boxxs main competitor is F1. Also worth noting that Hax is pretty much advocating for phob for people who want to play with the best gamecube controller
@@Rassmaster you are ignoring the fact that the *baseline* assumption of all of hax's claims is that a box is legal, must continue to be, and is the standard for what is ok. that assumption is absolutely not a given, and to use it as a launching point is itself crazy biased
I honestly wonder how aware he is of what he is saying, as him being unbiased in a discussion about his competitors is very literally impossible. I'm no master communicator myself, but the language he uses is full of these black and white oddities that I'm not entirely sure if they're quirks or insight on his true feelings? Further, I found his opinions on PODE and notch calibration to be *something else*, especially given the fact that the controller he sells has consistent digital inputs with 0 stick travel that can and has been configured on a per character basis. Maybe I'm lacking in the brain, idk
Future Goomwaves and Phobs for tournaments can have a tiny, red lamp that starts flashing if illegal mods are used, also a silly song can start playing if they start the match regardless
@@Wavedashnoir I can hook you up with a modder who sells them. If you want the full mod suite that I got, it may be a bit of a wait. although it was worth it
On the PODE point: unless I'm missing something I think I hard disagree with taking it out. Removing these features would seem to me to only encourage a similar lottery of searching for OEM boards with PODE that is deemed desirable to a subset of players. Also what about PODE correcting capacitor mods? Should those be regulated? I think if some people are allowed to use PODE to help themselves, phob users being given the option to tweak it shouldn't be an issue. The b0xx does not have PODE obviously, and I know you are for parity, but it just seems inevitable that there are some intrinsic differences, and I feel like GCC uses having access to things like PODE helps to sort of offset box quirks like lack of travel time, etc. This are just my thoughts, I like the video a lot and agree with most of it. Would like to understand your position on PODE a bit more maybe.
I think the easier up tilt mod falls in line with your stated end goal of parity between controllers, as boxx style controllers give unfailingly easier up tilts. Unless boxx style gets a modification to have a way of arbitrarily failing an up tilt (perhaps a timing requirement)
i believe snapback reduction on phob is a (useful) result of the signal processing necessary to get from the hall effect signal to a more melee-compatible signal. pode stuff is added more deliberately, and pode and snapback are just different mechanics
This was originally a reply to a comment in particular, but seeing the rest of the discourse in the comment section I figured I'd post it here. If I'm wrong about anything please let me know, I'm not opposed to healthy discussion/being called a dumbshit on the internet. There are numerous problems with the standard gamecube controller, even a brand new one out of the box can preform completely differently from another brand new controller, especially in a game as precise and technical as melee. Additionally, officially licensed gamecube controllers are becoming increasingly rare, and if you think melee is moving *towards* pay to win and not *away* from it with open source projects like the Phob being available, you clearly weren't playing melee in the mid-late 2010's. People would pay so much money controller hunting until they found a controller that was just fucked up enough in the right way to use at a competitive level, literally 100's and 100's of dollars. Only people who can afford to throw down that much money on controller gambling until they found the right one were pros, and if they were willing to spend that much it must have given them some sort of advantage. While some could argue the Boxx is pay to win, there are some things it isn't good at compared to a controller. While I think some things about it may seem unfair at times, it is the only way for some people who have serious hand strain problems to play the game. The Goomwave is debatably actually pay2win, but keep in mind standard GCC pcb's are not going to be around forever and there needs to be market alternatives to nintendo eventually. The Phob being open source means you could theoretically pay a pcb company to print you one and make your own controller, and is theoretically cheaper than a standard controller pcb, assuming you have the right tools/materials.
The way I like to think about it is if we took a top player from 2013-2017 and gave them a goomwave/phob or a box and put them back in 2013-2017 with it would they completely destroy because of the controller? While everyone else was still on lottery OEMs
I don't actually think this measure is as relevant as some people desire for it to be. I'm writing my own separate comment, which spawned as a reply to yours, yet grew much larger.
49 makes sense because it's Z-shield reproducible... 95+ makes no sense as it's just an arbitrary choice boxx team made and now wants to push onto the rest of the controller users. booo. Maybe it doesn't matter to characters with good shields but as a marth user it matters to have a good medium shield. Not being able to target 32% of the final trigger range because boxx decided there should only be 1 agreed upon value is dumb af.
well like hax said, it's probably not a good idea to have a really high light shield value on your analog-only trigger. and you'd only restrict yourself if you had two analog-only triggers or one analog and one digital, which seems like an even worse idea
I don't even agree with the "Z shield reproducible" statement because there's stipulations to using Z shield. If you didn't need to buffer a grab or A input everyone would be ZPSing, but they don't because the tradeoff is almost never worth it. I don't think there's any real way to balance this (although this idea can be extended to all analog to digital translations box controllers do), but especially being able to pretty much max lightshield ADT PS projectiles with no drawback and still having a usable mid, non digitial shield is broken. At the very least one of the LS or MS buttons needs to go even if we're retroactively balancing around these very controversial Phob features. The only reason the "digital input provides analog value" trigger mode on Phob is somewhat balanced is due to the fact that if you want a digital only trigger (which most players do/should), you lose all access to analog shield besides your designated value (which I still disagree with being able to reproduce specific values on command) and Z shield. There's also lockouts that prevent certain trigger mode combinations from being programmed together for ruleset purposes. This also isn't mentioning the double digital input boxes have regardless, which allow you to do things like frame sequential airdodge inputs for wavedashes.
I mean they coded those values for the shield into the game and gave them properties. I see now reason for banning the use of controllers that can take advantage of them
@@EvilApple567 That's entirely beside the point. The problem I have isn't with Z shield, it's with saying you can't use the last 30% of harder shield values just because b0xx picked a particular one they wanted to use.
not sure what makes you think the B0XX's chosen parameters should take precedent when it's not even a gamecube controller and was never determined by the general community to be legal
Hot take: people should forget about what a vanilla gcc can do. The only reasons we're thinking about it at all is due to legacy, which is stupid because someday we are inevitably going to have a situation where all the remaining gcc's have degraded beyond the point of competitive viability anyway, and I don't think that day is even particularly far away. Even setting that aside, the gcc is not some ideal controller that descended from the heavens perfectly designed for melee, it's the controller most players were stuck with at release because that was the default controller for the platform the game happened to be on. We should be taking a first principles approach, asking ourselves what we consider to be valuable parts of the game, and going from there. If we approach things that way, we could someday have a future where everyone has access to a high quality controller that is both cheap and accessible and better for melee than the original gcc ever was, if we don't then we create problems for ourselves for no real reason beyond some people being too lazy and salty to consider trying something else.
Idk why notches are allowed/necessary to support with more controller mods. Not that they give some massive advantage, but because precisely placing the analog stick is part of the unique challenge of smash's analog control. Notching a controller is something which takes skill and knowledge to do properly with can be damaging to a controller if it's messed up, and most people will have to pay others to do it. It provides a clear advantage over controllers without it, is not easily accessible to all, and it violates the design of the game. Why in the fuck they were allowed into the community back in like 2017 or whenever with no real issue I will never understand. Feel like I've been in the twilight zone with this controller shit for years. At least boxx/f1 players have to grind a unique and very unintuitive controller for hundreds, if not, thousand(s) of hours to see the full advantage. Meanwhile top players pay goomy $500 for goomwaves and they can just increase uptilt range for no work in game(until the goomwave breaks). CHEATERS! In concept at least I don't really care they're doing what's best for them to win in the current ruleset, but some people have the audacity to act like boxx players are a problem while using a goomwave. So fucking hypocritical. Idk how notches aren't similar conceptually to that given the provide easy access to previously precise inputs and extra firefox angles, but I'm fairly certain that's a opinion not shared by many. At least people are coming around on the goomwave. Great vid for education on them I didn't know a ton of that. Def a lot more comfortable with the changes the Phob brings.
Melee players have been avoiding similar comments like this for YEARSSS. Makes ZERO sense for notches to be a legal thing. ANY top players talking down on Boxx or ANYTHING controller related, whilst they play with notches, is criminally hypocritical and they’re credibility is thrown straight to the bushes. To top it all off, these are the SAME people that don’t want Hax’s 20xx to be the universal standard…cause you know, everyone shouldn’t be on an even playing field…right?? 🤦🏽♂️
@@sinfinite7516 I mean idk I've never played a boxx, but it seems like there'd be a lot of shit that'd be tricky with it. Having to use things like the modifier to mimic analog stuff seems like it would be something hard to get used to as well as using a very non standard 4 way directional input layout. An analog stick is less effective, theoretically, but a whole lot more easy to use intuitively. If picking up boxx was easier than gcc we'd be seeing way more boxx representation at high level, I feel, especially if it's is true they're also the most effective. I'm kinda talking out of my ass a bit since I don't play any boxx, but my main point in my og post was that modded improvements to Gccs can be relatively instantly put into effect by gcc users with little need for adaptation in most cases. However, if someone wants to move to boxx they have to spend an incomparably significant amount of time relearning the game on this new controller they're also learning. I think it's an often overlooked incongruence of this godforsaken controller arms rat race (at higher and top levels primarily).
@@dannytoomey86 you're totally right. People like to point to things you can do easily on the boxx but always ignore the trivial things that become way harder. And most of the time the complaints are coming from people who haven't even tried a boxx controller
@@fibbintiggins2858 ya I've always been a little unsure of how some things are done. The og smashbox with a wasd button setup for it's left hand confused the shit out of me. It wasnt until I saw the boxx design with the left side having arranged 4 buttons for easy concurrent use by 4 fingers that I understood how it might be possible to do melee movement. It seems like it would be at least be a significant challenge to adapt both your instincts and how you have to think in a lot of situations for it to be used properly.
This is the best answer. I think it’s fine if everything is easy in the game cause I feel melee is more about the thought process playing itself out not as much about the athletic execution of the ideas. That is cool too but it’ll still be there as long as one input per press is the case.
@@stephengehly2319 I heavily disagree and think the vast majority of people who go to tournaments would also disagree. A defining feature of competitive melee is the difficulty of execution. If you want low execution smash, ultimate already exists
Not sure where you live but they are very common. You can buy an entire lot in a box of 25-50 controllers for like 50 bucks on Buyee, have it ship from Japan. You'll have enough controllers to last you for a super long time. I did this just to easily get a bunch of controllers to complete my collection
@@Unbeweaveable I live in west US so I do have to wake up early (4-6 am) to win Buyee Auctions. Hopefully you live somewhere that it's a more reasonable time :p. I would usually go back to sleep immediately after lol
Would a tennis player from 80 years ago have a competitive edge over other players from upgrading their garbage wooden racket? Yes. Thus, should graphite rackets be banned? Heck no. That just means _everyone_ should be encouraged to use the better racket and that the better racket should be made more accessible to players of the sport at all levels. Players should be able to use whatever controller they deem desirable (barring some cases like macros), and they should reap the benefits or negative consequences of using said controller, not impose their preference and ideology on everyone else from a place of entitlement. By gatekeeping controller evolution, top players hinder the growth of their own sport, which is ironic given the very image of Melee that they all try earnestly to convince casuals of: "Melee is a game about precision that rewards the player for practicing challenging techniques." The nuance is easier to break down when you consider something like notches, which are almost universally excepted as a "fair" way to play Melee even though getting notches of professional quality costs a lot of money, expertise, or luck in terms of whom you know; if you don't have them, but your top player opponent does, what will they say about their "unfair" advantage? "Just get notches; they're allowed." For whatever reason, however, this is not acceptable for any controller that doesn't fit in the shell of a GCC. The hypocrisy of willingness to _modify_ a fundamentally flawed controller from the early 2000s but not _replace_ a fundamentally flawed controller from the early 2000s is laughable, and I simply can't be asked to take it seriously as a legitimate viewpoint from which to approach any controller discourse. Legalize boxes, legalize phobs, Idk enough about goomwaves to vouch for them, but _generally_ speaking, let the players use what they want to use, with _way_ fewer exceptions than guys like Mango, IBDW or Hbox push for.
@@someguy2016 increasing supply automatically decreases price by basic economic theory, which is why I used the word "accessible" at least once and probably multiple times. The issue, though, is that the controllers top players use are by no means accessible. One of my points has to do with not banning consistent-performance controllers, as permitting, for example, box controllers uncontroversially increases the demand, which increases the incentive to supply them, which in turn will decrease the price over time as they are manufactured more efficiently and cheaply. And, honestly, I'm not sure why that's the part of my argument that you fixated on, but sure, I'll entertain it. Yes, it's understood that a "toy" vs. a professional tool suggests a different market value, but the issue is again with the supply chain. If getting into Melee is made artificially more difficult because GCCs suck-especially ergonomically, which I can attest to personally, as I've screwed my left wrist due to trigger overuse-that's not a good look for the growth of the scene. There's a massive difference between buying a garbage "toy" controller that breaks in 3 weeks because it was only $15 and buying it because it's competitively prohibited to _use_ most everything else you could feasibly afford _and_ actually get your hands on even if you can afford it several times over, like a hecking keyboard. There's also a difference in affordability and literal supply, where goomwave creators supposedly hoard tech knowledge for profit.
@Brian Williams i would say "holy fuck, you like your own voice so much" but this is text form, and I can't be bothered reading your second wall of text
Idk melee is just a flawed game working around all this is near impossible for everyone to agree on. Whatever happens I hope the best decision is made that being said vanilla melee days were very simple and fun.
I disagree with your opinion on 1.0 Cardinal / Z jump being legal on these controllers. I think these should only be legal WITH 1.03. Otherwise, it provides an unfair advantage compared to stock GameCube controllers
But why? A stock controller can have perfect 1.0 cardinals, which is why people buy so many controllers to find that perfect one. This is why people like Phob because it allows anyone access to perfect stock controllers by building it themselves instead of having to buy multiple controllers to find the one.
@@MaxCoplan In my opinion, I think Asumsaus’s criteria of controller legality should be standard: can your controller do something that a normal human with a stock controller can’t do? Then it should be illegal. This is why notches are legal, but turbo buttons are illegal: you can hit max Firefox angles on a regular controller, notches just make it easier for you do do them. You can’t, however, achieve maximum Luigi tornado vertical drift by human mashing alone unless you have help from a computer aid, so turbos are illegal.
@@Exl6243 Horrible argument lmao. Obviously humans can do biomechanically demanding tasks such as multishining. Lets say a controller were to be modified to put B and Y closer to each other, thus meaning your finger needs to travel a shorter distance which makes multishining easier, it should still be disallowed. If we apply the same logic to other sports, then doping and steriods should be legal “because it is humanly possible to have this amount of muscle, and theres people out there with this good cardio so me pumping myself filled with fucking steriods and ephedrine daily should be allowed!!”
@@nibIet doping and steroids are illegal because they are life-shortening and can be extremely dangerous. If an athlete dies, it's a bad look for the sporting organization both legally and for PR. Can you please explain how a controller modification can be life-threatening to the user?
Competitive melee is such an interesting phenomenon. It was clearly and admittedly a casual party game by the game’s creator, but we have attempted to mold it into a competitive and fair fighting game over time. It’s ironic when people are opposed to change, when we have been changing the rules, adding software mods, controller mods, etc. since the game came out
I'm sorry bro but "The goomwaves DBOOC solution shouldn't be legal because my solution is better" is not exactly a compelling statement lmao. Holy shit. Neither is "You can't do this on the boxx so it shouldn't be legal on the phob". Dude. You should not be allowed anywhere near a "Melee control standarization commity" like holy crap you've got some absolutely terrible ideas.
This game should just be regular gamecube controllers. If you want to physically damage your controller and make angles on them then go for it. If you want to alter the spring in your L or R then go for it. Anything beyond that is just cheating and moving towards pay to win if it's not there already today.
How is finding and up charging an ideal oem controller for competitive play not pay to win. The arguments for these controllers is to open up the availability of good controllers to the public. As well as mods that include UCF to make the game more playable for everyone. Go play vanilla in your basement if you are not for the open availability of good melee controllers for all
@@jamespineda6507 Everyone can get themselves a gamecube controller. Whether or not the controller is "ideal" is way less of a problem than what's going on now. Both scenarios have open availability for each controller. The difference is the effect the "Ideal" controller provides in today's world vs just a slightly better regular GCC back then is gigantic. If you think it's on the same scale than we're done here. Nice try trying to end your stab at me with me not wanting everyone to have a good controller...which is simply not true.
@@phillicheesestake Open source alternatives will be necessary in the futire like it or not. It's like wanting NFL to grow but only have a limited supply of footballs to play with.
forcing everyone to switch to the much better GCC controller is the conceptual same as forcing everyone to switch a b0xx, the difference is in how it makes you feel. since we care so much about original intentions, we can't make exceptions for modded controllers, less we be hypocrites. OEM stock controllers do not have the notches people pay for on their gcc. That's an unfair advantage granted to the person who simply has a better controller.
@@James-pb8xu Same is the RNG-fest of getting a stock controller with a literal manufacturing flaw so you get an advantage. Just remove the variability with an open source, affordable and consistent controller.
