The Hidden Barrier of Melee 

What are YOUR opinions on controllers these days?

The fact that the magnets can become altered by the earths field (I'm not joking) makes traveling internationally with them even more treacherous because no amount of special cases for them can save you

As a (now retired) phob maker due to hand pain and stepping away from melee (maybe I’ll get back in with a rectangle), I’m very glad that the 2.0 lowered costs for both modders and users, and is extremely easy to make. You didn’t mention any of the Boxx nerfs that are already built in compared to notched OEM controllers: they have significantly reduced angles compared to max wd notches, which are trivial with phobs. This doesn’t sound like it’s huge but it reduces the distance you can wavedash by a massive amount on fox specifically, as well as making your recovery more exploitable as the max angles on boxx from above ledge can be hit by various tilts compared to the completely safe angle of Cody’s standard recoveries, which are flatter. I think boxx fox is actually worse than controller, despite the access to turnaround uptilt, and other less explored characters could be very strong on boxx, such as Marth Shiek or Falcon, since they aren’t hit as hard by the angle nerf and can hit dash out of crouch consistently for downthrow tech chasing. Notches should almost certainly be banned, but personally I’m ok with button remapping as stuff like z jump improves hand health compared to clawing for long periods. Goomwaves are also somehow not banned despite using macros for pivots and uptilts. It’s also really hard to police stuff at the local level or online, software/hardware checks are infeasible for majors as well. We truly opened Pandora’s box of controllers

This video could not have been timed more perfectly. I've been trying to determine what type of controller to get, and this video is another excellent resource into my eventual purchase of a controller. Thanks so much for a great video, keep up the great work!

The controller situation in melee nowadays is too crazy

I love the Gamecube controller so much. You can actually import Gamecube controllers from Japan for insanely cheap through a middleman service, and they're usually in amazing condition! I feel like it's a largely untapped market, as most Melee players source their controllers from the US, which is generally a bit expensive.

You make it sound like a modded controller is mandatory, but there’s a ton of top players who just rock OEM controllers.

Then there's me still rocking the same JP white I got for 60 bucks 7 years ago lmao

so thankful we have 2 phob makers in my region and it was only 95$ for one

8:10 the availability of good smash rectangles has made playing melee finally a reasonable reality for me. I've played fighting games and competed for over a decade but I only play on box controllers in traditional fighters. so open frame 1 controllers made sense and don't kill my hands like game cube or playstation controllers do.

I did not know M2K had like 50 controllers, that's funny

I'm a little late to the party but: I've put together a couple of phobs, and I do think that if you're getting in to smash, spending the little extra on learning about your controller by getting a basic 2.0 drop in board and assembling it yourself, messing with settings and setups is a really good way to learn how you like your controller, and how to maintain it Your controller doesn't have to be a $5-600 custom built to your detailed specs by some big name modder, it can be something cool you built yourself for $80-100 and learned alot from

We just need a better controller. The fact that the community thinks that controllers that allow you to fully express your intention and decisions to the best of your ability are a bad thing or "cheating" is absolutely insane to me. We need a six button controller with a dedicated shorthop input. And a more ergonomic shell. The stick feel should stay the same, but just about everything else should change. I've been thinking about this for a while, and while I don't have the skillset to devolop a controller, I think it is insane that we havent had a proper redesign yet. And especially with switching to pc run 240hz set ups at a lot of places, once it becomes standardized we need to look into a way of allowing traditional controllers, (even though a lot of them have a much looser stick feel, along with other things that make them suboptimal) into tournaments. I'm definitely not saying we should have people setting up their controls every time they play, but we need a standardized plug and play control set or something, or to have players pre-submit control schemes.

Another option now is the ProGCC from Handheld Legends. It's a board built for Switch Pro Controllers that have a Gamecube controller mode on them. The v3 model has Hall Effect Sensor sticks as well as feature like remappable buttons, and a special button (default being the L button on the ProCon, as the Gamecube controller lacked a left bumper button) that you can map to things like light shield.

4:22 that be like if North Korea all of the sudden decided to open a public library

I've been using my Phob for nearly a year now and I absolutely love it. The consistency with phobs is out of this world when all you've ever played on are OEM GCC'S. Banger video as usual!

Why do people not make the traditional looking controllers from scratch? Are there 1st party components that can't be replicated?

I love the custom controller market but damn was it sad to see panda globals controller project shut down :/ we were finally gonna get an affordable controller in the market that had a lot of bells and whistles while also being mass produced. I hope someone can make something similar in the future because seeing all the boxx variants is giving me serious fomo. Like a new one is coming out once a month it's insane. Yet if I want a phob I need to DM some guy I don't know or solder together some stuff.

as someone who fairly recently got into melee, and even more recently decided to start playing, I currently just play with un modded keyboard controls on Slippi because getting a controller would both be a lot of work and money. and like, for the most part keyboard works pretty alright, but analog values are super cursed because the only angles I have are the 8 from wasd (well, and 2 secret bonus ones that I mcgyvered by setting my value higher than my up value so that when I press both at the same time it ends up as a slightly downwards value, and binding a key to be both up and down at the same time so that I can have wavedash angles that aren't 45 degrees because 45 degree wave dashes as your only option is miserable)

Even though tennis rackets have been causing people elbow pain for decades it's still the legal way to play tennis. The same should be true for Smash. Game cube controllers should still be the standard. It's up to the players to take care of their hand health just like any other athlete. It's a slippery slope, and if this keeps up the game will be dead in less than 5 years.

The editing was really good and its always nice to have people make videos on these topics, but there is a lot of misinformation here. Boxx-style controllers can make a lot of tech more consistent, but the do not allow you to do stuff that is not possible on a gcc. Phobs are not just oem controllers with magnets, they allow for remapping of buttons, have a build in system for snapback reduction, have different modes for both triggers and let you recalibrate your sticks. With topics like these, where people are quick to call something broken without understanding it it is very important to do your research and make sure everything you say is true. I'm not trying to hate. I enjoy your content and hope this came off as constructive criticism.

That highlighter hiss noise made me jolt and look around me the first few times lol

I have this old controller that I've saved, the c-stick went out, I tried fixing it but ruined the contacts while soldering. Ever since that controller, nothing is the same. I've gone through at least 20 controllers and none of them are good like that one was. Knowing you can scratch off the surface layer of PCB and expose the traces and could wire directly to them still gives me hope. I am doodoobeans at soldering though. One of these days I'll take it to someone to get it fixed.

Awesome vid, was just getting back into Melee.

This might be a hot take, but I honestly think that button remapping should be added to Melee in a sofware mod like UCF. It's one of those simple things that would make people more open to learning Melee as their competitive game of choice due to the fact that they wouldn't have to learn to play with the vanilla control scheme. Also button remapping is already allowed, but for modded controllers. I personally think that the only 2 reasonable takes to have on this is that button remapping should be available through the software or it should be banned altogether. Anyone who thinks that it should stay the way it is are basically just admitting that they think it's good that people need to spend crazy amounts of money just so that they can have the controls the way they want them.

These controllers are: 1) Unergonomic, to the point where people have developed forms of arthritis and seriously injured themselves 2) Imprecise compared to other forms of input 3) Fickle and only work for a finite time, meaning you have to buy another 4) Not even good enough on its own without serious modification 5) Far more expensive than buying a single input device like a fight stick/hitbox which has cheaper parts that are easier to replace (you can do it on your own) 6) Cant be used to play other fighting games (well I guess technically you could, but who would?) How can anyone defend this? It is clearly an inferior input device, and the barrier for myself even trying to get into this game isn't as much about the price as it is this. We used to play the shit out of melee casually back in the day and I love it. I love older fighting games in general, and I worry about their future, but the future of Melee is threatened by input devices more than anything else. I'm not technically part of your community, but I watch tournaments. It's probably not my place, but you guys have to figure this out. These controllers are just garbage and until there is a good solution people like myself who probably would play won't. It excludes players when new blood is the difference between having a scene and it slowly dying... just because it is a big name doesn't mean your community is immune to this.

I still use my old Gamecube controler it came with the Gamecube. It has more than 20 years.

Honestly, it kind of reminds me of how expensive it can be getting into competitive yugioh. Obviously there's the price of the stuff for the specific deck you want to play, but there's also the price of cards referred to as staples. Starting off, Konami does reprint staples, so they don't stay expensive forever, but it is worth noting that even with reprints they can be expensive, not to mention that you need a ton of them. To give an idea of what you need, or what is at least a good idea to get. They won't always be good, but they are worth getting because they will eventually be good. 3 pot of prosperity 3 droll and lock bird 3 ash blossom 3 evenly matched 2-3 triple tactics talent 1-2 triple tactics thrust 3 Forbidden droplet 3 D.D. crow 3 Infinite impermanence 3 Nibiru the primal being 3 effect veiler 3 ghost mourner 3 ghost Belle Etc. For context, this is roughly about a quarter of the staples you'll want, if not less. As I said, most are affordable individually, but they do add up pretty quickly. There occasionally end up being expensive ones that are effectively mandatory to compete. Pot of prosperity is a 3 of in almost any deck, and it's a $40 card. TT Thrust is $100. As someone who doesn't have all of these, it's not impossible to compete without them, but it's a massively uphill battle.

I’ve been torn recently on this conversation, I really wanna get a GameCube controller to play melee competitively, so far I’ve been sticking with a standard ps4 remote, playing on slippi and id say its gotten me quite far, the only thing is, is that I don’t know the legality of ps4 remote’s specifically in modern melee, don’t know anything about it but hope someone does who can educate me! Thanks for reading

As long as one button press is one input, I don't give a shit what form factor it comes in and if it's that much better to use a box then use it.

Box allowed me to play melee again. The tiny gamecube controller is an economic killee for me

I don't understand how any smash player can want to ban any controller considering the relationship the game has had with peripherals. It's never ever going to be remotely close to the 'fairness' of everyone having the same controller, so let the 'fairness' be that they can use whatever works best for them. They've been missing and cherry picking controllers for decades.

Man I really don't know what we are going to do for tournaments now. I guess the safest bet is not have ultimate as part of the tournament, just run melee and if Nintendo does try and do anything we just argue that melee is abandon ware. Personally I don't think Nintendo would win a court battle in the US if we ran tournaments anyway but I get that no one wants to risk it. This whole thing is insane.

Rip Panda Controller

the panda controller could’ve been so great

Last video "Competitive Melee makes no money" this video "spending 7,000$ for a controller". You know for some reason I don't think they're gonna make that back

My gcc broke one day, 6 months later on boxx Falcon and I haven't looked back.

Played on controller since I was a kid back in 2004. The Boxx layout is difficult to learn but once you get the hang of it you wont want to go back. There's been nerfs to how they work Hax created an entire manual explaining why and how the Boxx is nerfed so im assuming you're advocating extra nerfs.

This guy stares into my soul when talking

i came up on a controller without rubber on it's joystick. i wouldn't say you need the absolute best controller to get into melee. but if you're really getting into it, you will want to eventually get one that isn't dawg shit.

Does every single top player have a “heavily” modified controller? I didn’t realize just how wild it gets with the easier inputs… that doesn’t sit right.

If it's this bad in North America or Europe, imagine how worse it can be for anyone living outside of these places. 500 USD becomes easily 2000 R$, apart from shipping and other costs, while the minimum wage in Brazil is around 1.320 R$. I can't even tell if there are makers in Brazil, but even that wouldn't be cheap, so it's just inaccessible

I’m someone who is into a lot of competitive fps, especially apex, and it’s interesting to see how controller vs box is similar to the controller vs mnk discussion.

I hope Boxx style controllers are here to stay. My hands are too large to use Gamecube controllers for extended periods of time, and have kept me out of Smash in the past. The Boxx is literally the only reason I'm back into Melee today.

Especially after ucf, I feel like you don’t really need a perfect controller until you’re at the highest level. I bought a 1st party controller for like $32 and I’ve been playing a lot and I’ve not really had any problems with it. Maybe I was lucky or I’m just not advanced enough to notice the issues but I feel like people stress about this stuff too much. I do wish phobs were cheaper though because everyone should have a reliable controller

I mentioned before, but you are awesome with your POV on certain topics. How you only have around 5K subs is still a mystery Keep up the insane work💚💚💚

Remapping buttons is possible on oem controllers, its just easier on a phob

overall though i really wish the whole panda scandal never arosed and i wish the panda controller didn't get cancelled so much. Maybe not from panda but this community def needs some sort of Competitive Controller thats accessible by everyone. It'd just cost way too much and no one has the power that kickstarter had

Another take is that a lot of problems with controllers in melee can be made into Software level fixes but a lot of people complain about this or do not any sort of change to their game which i just... don't agree with tbh. There's some software fixes that def go overboard but stuff like Z Jumping, 1.0 cardinal fixes, should just be a thing

the fact that everything relies on an oem at some point has me scared for the future. we need more

your comments on the b0xx are not very informed. The b0xx is nerfed a lot, and can't access a lot of more niche techniques. Fox is not the only character played on b0xx and other characters benefit from the layout as well. Some people will even argue that fox and marth and other characters are better on controller, especially in the realm of phobs and goomy's because notched controller can hit better angles and have access to the full spread of the analog coordinates whereas the b0xx can only pick a few. Prime example are wavedash characters like luigi and ICs. ICs have their more obscure desync coordinates banned so you can only do that stuff with ICs on controller for instance. There are timing lockouts, bans various techniques, and tons of various other things that bring the b0xx in line with the gamecube controller. It does not need to be nerfed. I do agree that the b0xx is the best controller though. It is by far the most comfortable and the most consistent, which is its biggest strength. It's the best controller because it's the most fun.

you can totally still miss execute a turn around up tilt or a shield drop on b0xx. Shield dropping is def more consistent but you can make the mistake of pressing one or the other button too quickly and you'll spot dodge. Turn around uptilt is even more similar to a GCC on b0xx as you have to let go of the button you used to turn around before pressing a or else you get an upward angled forward tilt.

If people want to ban the Boxx because it gives an advantage in precision, then should we also ban modded controllers in general since they also give you an advantage over normal controllers?

I will say this, I got a symphonic green phob 2.0 with notches and that was 575 dollars, 500 of that was the symphonic green. Say it was a smash ult shell, wouldve been 150. I have 2 phobs from rienne now and one ive used for over a year with 0 issues. You can spend 150 on a phob amd never have to spend money on a controller again if you buy from the right person

As someone who are from the FGC and also stick/controller enthusiast. Watching Melee growth from Gamecube oriented controller to more diverse type of controller make me happy. Controller is part of player expression and should be more appreciate. Hopefully with more people expose to different kind of mod and controller will growth the modding scene more and hopefully more vendor will make it cheaper. Now, I need Smash Controller but with Lever since I'm a lever (Arcade Stick) player so I can learn smash more easily haha

I play OEM and do a pseudo claw grip (I call it keyboard grip) Index on B, middle on A, Ring finger on X, thumb on C stick. It’s not perfect but I can play decent still and I wouldn’t blame my controller if I lose.

Bring back the Panda controller😭

It's crazy to me that some of these cost more than my decked out custom fightstick

Everyone is always entitled to their opinion. But what I find interesting is that while I love videos like this, no one ever talks about HOW they want to nerf rectangles. (I personally hate Box as the catch all term) Travel time nerf has been thrown around and tested. It probably has somewhere to go in the future. But no one ever talks about how having a program assume and TELL you what you wanna do in a competitive game is jarring. I'm not saying it's unviable, but no one ever talks about it. On a control device that is already unintuitive to the vast majority of players, nerfs such as this could have massive drawbacks to the playerbase and community. Tldr: Everyone calls for nerfs but no one puts in the time to suggest valid ones. But that's just my opinion as a follower of the smash scene but not an active player in Melee.

I remember hearing Mango say that if there is one thing he really misses about Armada and Mew2king, its that they would have NEVER let the controllers get this broken if they were still playing.

idgi i have a phob from one of the modders that makes controllers for top players, and it has firefox notches, clicky Z, and digital L trigger. mine cost about $350 (except the 100 or so i spent on custom buttons and triggers that were mostly aesthetic lol)

I’m out of the loop with Melee. Didn’t UCF fix the controller lottery? Also, the best “forever solution” is, whether the Smash community wants to admits it or not,if EVERYONE switched to lever-less/ boxx style controllers.

I love Melee but competitively playing Melee is a waste of time, what a mess smh

This controller drama is onevof the many reasons why I prefer smash 64 over melee It's tournament legal to use any controller as long as there are no macros on them, from n64 to GC to b0xx to ps5 to fing keyboard (my keyboard)

There should be a storefront for cheap cardboard rectangles. Even though pre-made b0xxs and Frame1s can be pricey, DIY ones can be made with just a box of scraps.

Players who are cool with modding the controllers to do things easier but hate the box are nothing else but toxic gatekeepers.

i dont think i heard mention of buying a new japanese import ult controller?

i love melee but i feel horrible for anyone tryna buy an actual oem gamecube controller thats not gonna bust or break on them in months to say just play Mario Sunshine or something and then melee players got a hold of all em

The thing that matters most in this game is dash dancing. I've never seen anyone, other than me, do it correctly.

"Nerf the box" bro HOW? Even if you could, how would the TO know you are using a pre-nerf box or a post-nerf one? Here, instead of nerfing the box, perhaps controllers should be buffed? The upsides to the box are all there because they are inherent to its digital nature. It is also easier to buff controllers by modifying the irrefutably faulty ways that the game reads player input, it makes shitty controllers usable again, and it won't force all people using boxes to modify their controller to actually implement any proposed nerfs. Boom, problem solved. Controller users can just use any controller they want, box users don't have an advantage, and the integrity of the game is kept intact.

real

The game is easier to get into than ever. Anyone with an office pc and a keyboard can learn the game.

Lately I've been interested in the BOXX and its advantages over all GameCube controllers

Gekaku 🙌

Where the DK bongos????!

Another good video Jerami!

The reason players may experience more hand pain on box is because they are used to controllers. The reality is that our hands arent supposed to do any repetitive motion for such long periods of time, like you can mess up your hands as bad playing piano. The other thing is that your muscles need to take time to strengthen, and that will cause some soreness, which is okay as long as you stretch and take breaks

rectangle is as fair and legal as Phob. Get over it

Great video as always :)

Wtfff I am the one who asked where I can buy a box on Reddit 😂😂😂

What nerfs would yall want to see from boxx/rextangles, i know there is travel time nerf thats being worked on and being tested and sdi is nerfed everywhere except the f1. A complete ban just sounds dumb but understandable

I would say 99% of players don't need to get any of these high end controllers. Most of the time it isn't the controller that is the reason you lose a match. Boxes probably do need to be reigned in somehow or controllers given more freedom.

THOSE LIPS ARE LOOKIN REAL CUTE, BOY

Ngl I kinda just wish competitive melee would die out (even tho i know it obv never will at this point). Melee was a big part of my childhood, but that memory has now since been replaced with imagery of overproduced tournament streams, annoying sponsorships, people like fucking Leffen, and now we have these stupid esports controllers flooding the market. What i'm trying to say is, that part of my childhood has essentially been corrupted and tarnished over time. I feel like there's no one left who would want to play Melee on a normal, average human level. I'm sick of the game being all about wavedashing and other shit I never cared about. But, I guess if that's what you want, you should just go play Ultimate... >_> sigh

That clip you showed when you said boxx can do things that GameCube controllers can't is pretty funny and disingenuous because I'm pretty sure that's just Cody using his GameCube controller

box is pretty broken imo :D

you’ve really leveled up your production quality man, awesome stuff!

TBF PS5 and XBONE controllers are utter trash and have to be rebought every half year if you are using the DPad

this video really ignores the amount of nerfs put into the box already. Both the smashbox, the box, and the fine1 all have numerous nerfs to them that makes it impossible for certain coordinates on a stick to be achieved. You do lose out on a lot of fine control while switching to the box. Not to mention the nerfs put in place for SoCD's and how they function. you repeat over and over about people wanting these leverless controllers to be nerfed but fail to mention to the extent they have already been nerfed by their very manufacturers.

why nerf box when you could just run 1.03? i don't even play on box and it doesn't even matter to anyone except top 100 players

I just use keyboard lol

Great video, but I really think it should be emphasized that this is really only necessary for top players. 99% of players will not have any issues playing on an unmodded OEM GCC. UCF makes shield-dropping + dashback consistent on pretty much all controllers, and notches, while nice, are in no way needed. Snapback is probably the hardest thing to deal with, and that can be worn out overtime, modded for relatively cheap, or might not even matter depending on which character you play. If you're a new to intermediate player, you have so many things to work on that the consistency provided by a premium controller affects so little of your gameplay.

This video lacked too much nuance. The difference between the goomwave and the phob, goomwave generally has more cheater features like modifying calibration to make certain tech easier. its also a lot harder to police the firmware of both box and custom board gcc. The boxx and its copies are definitely better for the hands for most players. Melee is super hard or your basal thumb joints do the to contant lateral movement. People are working on better layouts for different kinds of hand pain like prism controllers that look like Tetrahedron or people like chillin dude using an azeron to play the game one handed after his stroke. Its so easy to just scream cheater at everything but it really needs to be looked at from both the accessibility side as well as a fairness side. This is all because as much as the GCC is cool, it is not a well designed controller for any form of competition (especially for melee). It is inconsistent, breaks easy, and for a lot of people literally causes them physical harm. I don't have a solution. Maybe a community patch to allow rebinding by default would be a start.

Let’s goooo

i appreciate the work you put into this, but respectfully, this was genuinely one of the most egregious videos i have ever watched all the way through.