Sorry about the intro on this one guys. You can probably already guess, but this was done for copyright reasons. Unfortunately I didn’t have enough time to re-edit the video with different footage, so this was the best solution. The good news is that I have uploaded the intro without the filters over on my Patreon! - It’s not paywalled so anyone can watch it: www.patreon.com/posts/gran-turismos-93625936? Whilst I’m here I may as well address a couple of things which I didn’t get to in the video. When it comes to the AI in rally events this is mostly the same as the normal races in each game. The general trend is that from GT1-4 the AI were decently fast but also pretty unaware and sometimes erratic. From GT5 onwards they became more aware but generally slower and less intense, with their actual speed often being manipulated to make them seem even slower than they are. One issue that every GT game has when it comes to rally is the invisible walls at each track. And not just because it’s annoying to bump into them, but also because it means the level of risk is severely reduced - which is a large part of the appeal of actual rally. But what seems to have been forgotten in the mists of time is that PD were at one point planning for there to be harsher consequences in GT4. Here’s an old interview with Kaz where he mentions the possibility for your car falling into the Grand Canyon if you make a mistake on that track: www.eurogamer.net/i-gt4-ps2 Also, just a small thing, but the spectators which jump in and out of cover at GT4’s ‘special conditions’ circuits is a really cool feature. This is most obvious at Grand Canyon where they will literally run into the middle of the road to take pictures before running back. Why this is specific to just a handful of circuits in GT4, and has never been brought back for the rally circuits in any of the later games either, is kind of a mystery to me, but it’s yet another thing that makes GT4’s version of rally so unique and interesting.
GT6 had multiple point to point rally stages that were not even set on this planet! Electric car from the 70's on the MOON - Titanium Metal Treaded Tyres - Perfect for carving up that green cheese lunar surface! - Great content as ever. I bought an actual real copy of GT3 because of you! - You interweb influencer you!
Another thing, the reason why the gold medals for the rally license events in GT2 are so easy is that the Japanese version had rally physics with less grip, which forced you to take the corners slower. Later versions gave you extra grip on dirt but didn't adjust the license times to compensate (or at least didn't adjust them much)
It comes down to perspective and resource management. Although GT never was the perfect base for pure Rallying, the same cannot be said for Hillclimb Racing or Touge. And they never explored that properly...
A pure hillclimb game would be a completely fresh and unexplored experience, instead of it being only tacked onto rally games. I want the KW Berg Cup grid, and a career mode where the player rises through the performance factors to the top. The final tier would be either the FIA championship or Pikes Peak. I need Normas and other prototypes, repurposed formula cars, extreme touring cars (not just the Pikes Peak ones, EU too), the slower touring car classes, repurposed rally and circuit racers like a Skoda Fabia WRC or a Z4 GT3, historic hillclimb cars, some dirt hillclimbs from the US and a selection of cars from those, british hillclimbs and their unique formula cars, the GLP as a small second game mode, etc... SO MUCH POTENTIAL.
6:23 The reason the GT2 dirt-track license tests are so easy is because the international versions of the game changed the rally physics to make the cars much more grippy, but didn't change the time requirements to accommodate this. In the original Japanese version the off-road handling is much more slippery so the gold times are a lot harder to beat.
One thing to mention about GT4's rally is the amazing atmosphere and details to it, the crazy spectactors with cameras, background noises, it's amazing
One thing you may not have known was that Dirt 4's procedurally generated stages were just sections of track predesigned by the developers and then just kind of stuck together over a rally course. You drove over a lot of the same types of road and the placement of objects was always the same.
Yeah, that's the definition of "procedurally generated". You create a procedure, and then you generate stuff based on the procedure. No one said it was "randomly generated".
I think GT4's narrow Special Condition circuits were designed with GT3's handling model in mind, simply because in GT4 Prologue (which retains GT3's handling model), Citta di Aria and Grand Canyon are playable, and I think GT3's handling model makes them a fair bit easier to navigate for novice players.
A surprisingly positive overview of GT4's rally events in particular. Too often, discussion around GT4 Special Condition events boils down to specific talking points: "penalties suck", "cars have no grip on dirt/snow", "RSC grind is game-breaking" etc., so it's nice to see a more in-depth perspective. I agree that the new-to-GT4 tracks are a lot of fun; Grand Canyon is so satisfying to hotlap around once you learn the track. Something worth mentioning though is the imbalance between rally cars in GT4, and how inferior rally cars are overall. In general, newer cars have much better chassis/grip stats than older ones, and the Celica and Delta Integrale really struggle to apply their power out of corners, compared to the newer Impreza and Evo rally cars. Even then, their lowly 13 / 18 downforce makes them grip less than an Impreza Spec C road car with a rear wing and 30 / 30 downforce. This isn't helped either by how awful the stock setups are on rally cars (8 bounds/rebounds, 1.0 rear camber and 6/6 stabilisers?), so understeer and lack of traction are big issues until you soften the suspension, lengthen the gears and set the center diff to 50 : 50. GT4's rally redeems itself IMO once you keep these things in mind and work around its (admittedly unfair) penalty system.
I'm only 3 minutes in, and I'm already amazed with the fact that not only you share my views regarding rally drivers but also that you are using music both from Sega Rally 1 and Sega Rally 2, which are the games that are most close to my heart in terms of rally racing or motorsport in general for that matter. You're the best, dude!
I really need to re-plugin my PS3 just to play GT6 again. GT6 was my first GT game and I have so many memories, the only other GT games I’ve played are GT Sport and GT7
Quick fun fact about the advanced difficulty toscana rally in gt5, prior to the update 2.0 (or spec 2.0) there was no Performance Points (PP) being enforced on the event, only the horsepower limit, so what you could use the Ferrari F1 car detuned to the exact 350hp cap in order to use it
You needed to detune you car only to load a race. After that you could go to te tunning menu right before the race itself and tune your car back to 100% power, making the race even more incredible easy.
To be fair, and despite Rally being quite neglected, some of the most fun I've had in GT7 was taking the 90s Celica rally car to the red chili event where you have to race the modern GT86 rally car at Fishermans Ranch. It was a 1v1 and reminded me a lot of GT3/GT4. Wish they had more of these races, they should be the standard.
They do have more, there's a 1v1 race at each of the three base dirt courses. The disappointing part is that they didn't include similar events at the new off-road courses.
I've always seen DiRT 4 as being the "Gran Turismo of Rally games" because it has everything that GT has: buy and selling used cars, upgrading vehicles, money management and strategy, multiple disciplines and vehicle types, so many campaign events, time trials, even has a team management and partnerships system. I think its the best DiRT Single-Player experience.
@co.1157 As someone who’s put so many hours in DiRT4 (since its launch, on PS4), I have to agree with the sentiment. After you're done with the main Career Mode, there’s basically nothing you can do; after that. Sure, there’s Joyride Mode; but, it just feels like a soulless iteration of Gymkhana from DiRT3/Showdown, regardless of which handling model you’re personally using. Also, I don’t know if people are still playing DiRT4's Multiplayer (that isn’t just Rallycross, nor Competitive scene); at least, in-console, anymore. Also, the game’s branding and atmosphere/aesthetic just feels cold and cynical. Sure, a video game's aesthetic is subjective. But, it feels like Codemasters didn’t know if they wanted DiRT4 to be a try-hard oriented simulator, like the DiRT Rally games. But, also didn’t want to alienate casual players; who (probably) also played the previous arcade-oriented DiRT installments. Hence, why they’d even brought back Land Rush racing; despite, being the most despised class/segment, in the game. Like, regardless of its features, DiRT4 would’ve been looked more favorably; if, Codemasters took their time to figure out what they wanted the game to be, tone and personality-wise. And, probably implemented other forms/classes of off-road racing, like in previous DiRT titles. If, they were willing to pay for the licensing fees for certain manufacturers and sanctioning bodies of certain (off-road) racing championships. Also, could’ve had more environments/countries used for rally stages.
I wanted to like that game so bad. But dang. The weird handling and instability on PC were untenable, especially coming from the buttery and polished experience of DiRT 3 & DiRT Rally on the same platform.
The importance of rally in the series was almost always parallel to the importance of WRC in the real world. Once the championship started to become irrelevant, Kazunori also stopped focusing on it as well.
Another thing that actually bugs me: In GT2, they have an ice car (Tigra Ice Car for exact) but no ice track for that, and in GT4, they finally have an ice racing track (two if you count Chamonix and account Snow conditions as one) but not the Tigra Ice Car. God forbid how the ice car would drive on those ice tracks...
My rating for rally in GT PSP is a 7/10 Really close to the one in GT4, with all the circuits and a new one added, and as driver missions are optional license tests, any rally stage is accessible from the get-go, with the Pontiac Vibe GT being one possible starter car as a bonus, so you have a car to enter (plus the 100k cash at the very start lol). But the cars are limited, as most of them are restricted to road tires only. The usual form of 1v1 remains and with the time trial mode, you also have the form of rally from GT2 (but obviously, against yourself). My major problem is more of the game itself, that being the fact that your only incentive to engage with certain things is entirely a preference thing. Time trial, drift, rally and circuit are all just options for you to get money the way you want. So if you want to do only one thing, you can get away with the lack of variety
While I respect everyone 's right to have an opinion, I think one thing that's missing in this analysis for me is the fact that GT allowed you to take just about anything on a dirt track. The whole appeal of GT was not just Motorsport from the perspective of race cars on real tracks, but the ability to take a car that you may own in real life and put it in a racing environment. Understandably if you are a rally fan, that may not scratch any itch, but as a rally fan myself I thought it was a pretty wonderful possibility, so the abundance or lack of rally vehicles was never too much of an issue for me.
One of my mates worked on GT5, I can remember losing my s*** with him over the citroen C4 on snow with tarmac tyres, and some of the points you bring up here, but for what ever reason, this is what the higher-ups wanted. mind blowing really.
The rally physics in GT2 and GT3 were surprisingly, if not suspiciously, similar to Sega Rally's gameplay, and I loved it that way. When GT4 dropped I was so disappointed to see how much slower and unfun they made the physics on gravel/dirt. But the tarmac tracks are indeed fantastic. Yes, yet again another "GT4 was a mistake" post from me. Great video !
Now that I watched your video, I now understand why Gran Turismo doesn’t take rallying too seriously. It had a very awkward history. I still have hope for Gran Turismo, and I love rallying no matter what. I just race, and wait for what Polyphony is cooking up next.
I think the intent of GT3's rally structure is that you _wouldn't_ complete an entire event at once but would complete the easy races of them _all_ first followed by their intermediate and difficult races.
I think the biggest issue I have with GT4's prize cars in the Special Conditions Hall is Tsukuba Wet (Hard) You race Literal Le Mans Prototypes with zero handicap, on a reduced grip surface, on a tight track where handling and acceleration are crucial And you get a bog standard (even if contextually unique) Ford GT I know it can be beaten with a heavily upgraded Lancer or Impreza but it doesn't really line up
I would like to say Gran Turismo always had rally in mind but the implementation was always difficult because they knew where the core player base will spend most of their time, being on tarmac.
I’d like to make a special mention to one car that Gran Turismo 4 added: The Mitsubishi Starion 4WD. The Starion 4WD was never properly rallied in the WRC. It was expected to show up for the 1986 RAC rally, but the announcement that Group B would be canceled after ‘86 made any effort in the program rather unnecessary. As the Starion, anyways. GT4 is likely the reason anyone knows about the car and its program, and I find that very fascinating. It’s not anything super interesting, such as the 288 Evo concept or any Group S prototypes, but the Starion is still interesting as an inclusion nonetheless.
My theory as to why we haven't seen Pikes Peak yet, is due to Kaz's realisim hunt. That road changes quite a bit each year, so in his eyes he would have to start over again and make it more realistic. But I don't know. I'm just some commentor on the internet. Great vid, keep 'em coming.
If anything it has to be system limitations. Unlike a circuit, it’s 12.2 miles point to point. That’s a lot of ground to cover and an enormous amount of scenery to get up to GT7’s standards that can also be run on PS4 & PS5. If it ever comes it will probably be limited to 1 or 2 cars on track at a time and will be useless for daily races and GTWS, which PD definitely care too much about regarding track choice
@@RowdyGT but the Nürburgring 24hr layout is nearly 16miles in length and Polyphony seems to have no trouble getting that to meet their standards 🤔 Granted it still is a circuit with fairly homogenous scenery but they still need to model a whole load of its local surroundings. If anything the lack of vegetation in the later Stages of Pikes peak make modelling it easier, no?
@@mrspandel5737 yes, towards the top it wouldn’t require as much work in terms of foliage but it’s exchanged with far more visibility around the landscape, and boulders. It will probably be loaded with invisible barriers too unless they just add reset points just outside the tarmac
Probably an unpopular opinion, but personally I never liked rally in GT. I understand *why* it's been included historically, after all how can you have a game dedicated to car culture and automobile industry without featuring the iconic machines which brought the likes of Colin mcrae, Sebastian loeb and tommi makinen to world champion status, but considering the technical limitations and driving physics I'd rather play a dedicated WRC game like the one that ran alongside Gran Turismo back in the day by Evolution Studios or currently by Codemasters/Milestone, same with Formula class vehicles. I mean you couldn't even have more than a couple opponents until GT5
i would love to see the course maker in GT7. Something they could add in the future if they still don't want to put rally stages (or togue) are the courses that are featured in MF Ghost, which basically are togue made closed circuits.
God the 2000s WRC broadcast music in this video hits me right in the nostalgia gland. The bits with just the music at 9:52 and 15:54 fit so well with the music, it's like they were straight out of one of those broadcasts.
I love the fact you used mid 2000's rally background music. That really set me in the mood for this one! As always great overview of the Gran Turismo features 👍
On top of providing an excellent rally experience, GT4 did one other important thing. It nerfed the Escudo. In GT2 and GT3, the Escudo was a game breaking "win at absolutely everything car" with an extremely unrealistic portrayal (the fact that GT3 lets you fit a turbo kit to it is idiotic). GT4 fixed that by making it a prize car, and by giving it a ton of turbo lag, meaning it was only really useful with super close gear ratios.
I will always complain immensely about how wide rally tracks are in all of them. The fact you have an entire car park worth of room to slide is nothing, nothing like what you see rally drivers doing. No cliffs, no trees, no threading the needle. Citta di Aria was such a treasure in that sense, but then even Lake Louise feels like yet another car park worth of sliding room.
My feeling towards rally in Gran Turismo is quite unique. I see a potential not exploited and it simply breaks my heart. PD could definitely compete with EA's WRC if they really want to. The same thing apply for motorcycle, but that take is even more debatable. Sony should step in and expand the Gran Turismo universe with other studios working with/for PD.
Not sure how hard it would be to make a decent procedural generator for rally stages, though it would be awesome to have something like that. Maybe it would be better to put together one or two track areas with a mix of tarmac and dirt sections that can be combined for different layouts. Those could be used for licence tests, especially early game events, and eventually special events. That's where you'd see rallycross layouts with a few cars, longer track versions for 1v1 races, and either single lap super long layouts or a point to point track as a rally stage. Given that PD likely wouldn't go for the latter as it doesn't conform to their idea of realism and all that, but there's a lot of options. What I find the most baffling is how they in many cases already have the content made (tracks and cars that is) and just don't bother combining both to create more events.
Still love all the 90s rally cars on my GT2 save, every 90s impreza and lancer decal, along with the celicas, megane, lancias, peugeots, citroens, escort, corolla etc etc
Adding pikes peak would make this the ultimate game for me. I’d have the Nurburgring and pikes peak. Words couldn’t describe how happy ide be. Maybe they’ll even add dirt and tarmac version?!
instead of mimicking rally events, they were more to mimicking dirt trial events which are popular in japan ..even ebisu circuit was born as dirt trial circuit bfr drifting came over
Even though I have rally games like dirt and wrc…even Sebastian Loeb rally…I always appreciated the gran turismo take on rally…and since I loved gt 4 so much growing up, I still have GT psp installed on my vita.
I'm not 100% sure about this. But seems to me the AI in GT4 dirt and snow events are broken, really faster than in tarmac. To me is the hardest events in the game except mission 34.
i presonnaly start playing in gt5 and i at the time i was to bad for normal carrer so my best gran turismo rally memory was quick races with all 4 wrc cars such as c4, focus mk2, sx4 and impreza
If we're being charitable we could say that the format of GT 'rallying' is more akin to the Super Special Stages you occasionally see irl; smaller, closed circuits contested over a couple of laps by two cars. Nice video though bud. Your point at the outset of rallying either being the sole focus, or an add-on that ticks a box with its inclusion is interesting and warrants further exposure in my opinion.
The handling in GRAN TURISMO 2 on Worldwide versions is surprisingly very grippy unlike Japanese versions. So thats why the gold medal times are very easy to get.
I do like the rallies as is, because we do them in our lobbies. Preferably with purpose tuned rwd roadcars, we don’t like the grB’s. And that originated in gt6, with the mits and nissan antiques. I loved those, I’m a sucker for nostalgia. So a rally is a nice close to an evening. But I crave the return of so many old tracks, like just about everyone else
I mean this as a100% complement. You have the greatest voice on RU-vid currently. You could literally read the dictionary start to finish and I'd watch the entire video! Merry Christmas to you and your family as well as everyone subbed to your channel!
I found WRC thanks to tv. I fell in love with WRC thanks to GT. Amongst my friends I was the GOAT on dirt with the 206 WRC and Tahiti Maze (the track we used). I miss those days. With love: a 40 year old man who still plays GT.
When I was a kid, I loved "rally" racing in Gran Turismo because it didn't throw me into all the nuances of realistic rally racing but it gave me a lot of the fun of rally racing... and I didn't even need to buy another racing game! Also, the prize cars.
I think the reason they resorted to ghost cars in GT2 was because they couldn't make the AI competitive. Even in GT3's Arcade Mode (where rally was necessary to progress), I found the Easy AI and the Normal AI too forgiving for being allegedly a mirror match.
I agree, with the fact that rally drivers are the most skilled in motorsports. F1 admittedly is more demanding and has a lot more factors in terms of driver safety and strength and fitness, but rally drivers are basically a different breed. If they crash, then they crash. They can only get their car repaired for a *limited* time in the service area which adds to the strategy of the sport. Plus in my opinion it's more fun to watch and a fresh sight compared to your old, regular closed circuit tarmac racing. I don't hate circuit racing, I just think rally adds more thrill and fun to the table.
I always felt like "rally" in GT was a neat side activity, rather than part of the overall main campaign. Their inclusion, like you mentioned is just so Polyphony can claim to be a jack of all traits racing game. It was a nice distraction from the usual circuit racing, but not something that you would dedicate too much of your resources into. In the same way I'll play something from Codemasters for my rally fix , I'll play Gran Turismo for my track racing fix. Also side note on tracks that never came back, can Polyphony for the love of god bring back Grindelwald and Red Rock Valley from GT2.
Love that you've used the real WRC music from the 2000's. Nostalgia hit hard. I hope they add pikes peak or some longer stages into GT7 as they round out development.
Lets not forget how they always awkwardly place jumps on rally tracks in the most dogy parts of the track. Like how there is a jump on Sardegna Windmills in the middle of a flat-out corner right before a pit entry on the outside lmao, there are so many more examples.
A 90 minute online Enduro would be amazing. I did enjoy the Enduro races in GT2 which was the only game I ever had time to play them in, seeing as I didn't own GT1 until well after I had a PS3. I don't have time to do a 24hr race unless I can leave the game paused while at work. 😊
The rally in gt sport got me interested in focused rally games when I really wasn't before so I think if people get a taste of it in a game like GT7 or whatever it's still a good thing.
What made rally in GT special for me, similar to Circuit racing in GT, was that at least some of the events took place with normal cars. And by that I don't mean road legal sportscars like Evos, Imprezas, or M3s, but also that red hatchback your neighbour used to drive in the 90s. That might even be part of the reason why Gran Turismo Sport isn't a "number title". I think the best would be to go back to the Special Events of GT4, and make a dedicated section in the career about narrow streets, loose surfaces, and maybe even mixed surfaces. And for the love of god either give up the exclusive rights for Pikes Peak or give us some actual Pikes Peak content! Even Electronic Arts had the decency to throw in a 911 in like every 4th Need for Speed game
I miss the Escort rally car from GT3 so much, it was sooooo GOOOOOOOOOOD, I wish they would release GT3 and 4 on the PS2 classic range, everyone would buy it.
Tip: If you want extremely difficult and fun rally, play BeamNG (yes i know it offers a lot more outside the rally nieche, but still), it is amazing, and with some mods (like the "Douglas Rally" mod), it gets even better.
I feel this way for all aspects of Gran Turismo from GT4 onwards, which does link to the move to PS3. I feel like Polyphony went for "realism", and "content" over "feel", or even outright enjoyment. The more "professional" the image has become, the less fun these games are to play. I really want to enjoy, and I'm always suckered into buying the next installments, but they're just.. boring? Bland as you say. Sure, the cars might handle very realistically, but driving around in a long line of 16 cars in a deserted nurburgring gp circuit is not nearly as fun as 6 cars around apricot hill or red rock valley, or even El capitan.
This is probably the perfect time to say this but the move to the PS2 was when Polyphony started to show their bad game design and their spectacle > authenticity style of game. 3 started the timed race bs (4 is an exception) 4 started the stiff chase camera bs (Sport is an exception) 3 might be the 3rd best GT game and 4 might be the best GT game but we have to understand that those 2 started some bs that we see in Modern GT.
Very cool video thanks, it was nice to go through GT Rally history. In the end, I'd say that rallying in GT is closer to rallycross or simply off road track racing. Personally, I've always felt that rally never found its place in the games. Cars and tracks were there because GT is an overall racing game that features every category in the world, but rally being so specific, it never really had a proper representation of it (as I said, it was more rallycross and offroad track racing than proper rally). On one side rally cars were always highly represented with enough cars to make a rally game but we were missing all other aspects of rallying. Maybe, if GT wants to keep only closed circuit, I wonder why they never, for rallying, implemented a mode that looks like Sega Rally : closed circuits but with checkpoints and time running, that would feel a bit more like rallying, and despite having other cars with you, you're actually runinng against time. Also, among all the failures in terms of rallying for GT Sport and 7, the biggest one must be the cars. Honestly, I don't care if I only have 3 or 4 dirt/snow tracks to drive, what I really like are the cars, and the total absence of real rally cars (the only two being the 205 Turbo 16 and the recently added Celica Group A). These fictive Group B cars are indeed fast and pleasant to drive, but they just feel boring and without personality compare to real rally cars (and especially WRC). Good thing is you can recreate some of them thanks to car tuning system that came back in GT7.
i think the ideal situation is if Gran Turismo can combine the concept of rally racing with its strongest point which is its car roster, and create a sort of 'amateur rally' scene ... where instead of purpose built rally cars, you have road cars with modifications which can be conceivably be done by the average enthusiast such as tyre and suspension upgrades, and maybe a roll cage to simulate the safety regulations this would allow for some interesting sights, such as bringing your homemade shoestring weekend beater car to glamorous rally tracks all over the world
I'm actually wondering on whether the Prize Cars for GT4's rally events were bugged in a way that the rewards were reversed. Maybe you weren't meant to get something like the RCS Rally Raid Car on Easy, but on Hard instead. But seeing as how GT4 has a reputation for it's prize cars being unbalanced, nobody ever noticed this.
Wholeheartedly agree from start to finish! It would be interesting to compare the online activity from GT5-GT7 when it comes to rallying. I check lobbies almost daily in GT7 and there's not really a rally community to be found... I feel most races end up with most guys leaving - they totally give up hope, just after one crash, at the fault of their own. Also - Most players just pick the Gr.B cars, due to tuning insecurity - but with the right lobby settings (and COMMUNITY!) there's so much diverse fun to be had! GT7 could be a 9/10 if it had Community, Course/Stage-maker and if some of the ridiculous restrictions were fixed... It's apparently totally wrong to drive BMWs on dirt/snow - But old super expensive Ferrari's? No problem....
