Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge, I am a pianist and the tone of my Grand piano is very bright, even though I bought it, it is old but I want the mellowest sound, so I will carefully try this technique!! Thank you for your time and contribution. :) Sorry my EN. Best regards from Germany.
THANK YOU! I voiced my piano based on this instruction. Our 'new to us' piano was too harsh and bright when we got it. I used my wife's coarse nail file to file the hammers. Worked like a charm! Now it has nice dynamics, not harsh. Very nice. Thanks again!
Thank you so much for this! I have two pianos, an upright and a grand -- the upright is a Yamaha P22 I bought in 1998 or so from a dealer and the grand is a Conover that is probably over 100 years old I bought from a piano rehabber about a decade ago. Your advice is perfect and exactly what I needed to know -- thanks for not belaboring the point and for packaging it in a down to earth way for the "rest of us" LOL.
IMO it's not possible to get a good profile when facing each hammer 'in situ.' For this reason I always take all the hammers off before re-facing (re-shaping) worn hammer felts. With an upright, it helps if the piano in question has butt plates. Fortunately for me, here in the UK there are not too many 'Spinet' type uprights, because with this type of upright, usually the action is connected to the keys via connecting rods, just to add to the lenght of time such a job can take. Of course, with most grands it's easy to unscrew each hammer in turn to do this, though a little harder with a Simplex (D-Section) action which some baby gands have, due to the spring-and-loop system where the loop passes trough a hole in the jack and has to be 'uncoupled' before the hammer can be removed. On an upright where there are no butt plates, one has to dismantle the action - but in any case return tapes and balance hammer leathers need to be replaced at the same time, depending upon the age of the piano and the amount of wear. And damper cushion felts often need replacing due to wear against the damper spoons. Needless to say there can come a point where the hammers are just too badly worn, so it becomes necessary, or at least highly desirable, to install a new set of hammers.
I’ve never had a problem accessing the entire hammer, just takes some practice. It’s even easier in a grand since you can just pull the action, turn it around, and place it back in the piano to work on it. You run the risk of damaging, losing, or misaligning things not to mention the time it takes to do it properly. And, not everyone can afford to have the entire action rebuilt just because it needs a voicing.
@@michaelbarrett3926 Where there's not much wear on the hammers, and you're only having to voice, of course with an upright you just voice in situ - though sometimes one needs to tilt the action back for access. HOWEVER: Where re-facing is required, due to wear and flattening of the hammer, to get the correct profile, one often has to take some felt off the shoulders. To do this properly on an upright, each hammer has to be taken off. If you're none to fussed about getting back the correct profile of each hammer, then that's up to you, but I like to maintain the highest standard of work that I'm able to do. As for re-alignment of hammers, in an upright with butt plates - assuming the alignment was correct in the first place - then that's not an issue. Although, if the hammers were not correctly aligned in the first place, it's essential to re-align, which in any case necessitates the removal of the dampers and the levers (whippens) in order to be able to align without risking breaking any of the whippens/jacks. But when doing an action rebuild on an upright which does have butt plates, as we know, the hammers have to be put back on first, and aligned with the strings, prior to then putting back the levers (or whippens as you call them) and aligning the jacks with the butt notches and then replacing the dampers and aligning them properly too. It has been my experience that if hammers have enough wear to necessitate re-facing, more often than not one has to replace return tapes and replace the balance hammer leathers at the same time. However, I do take your point about the expense - therefore the owner of the piano has to weigh up for themselves how much they want or can afford to have done on their piano. Certainly some cases are 'borderline,' where in an ideal world one would re-face prior to voicing - which is of course my usual practice. But where there is not too much wear/flattening of hammer felts, one can just voice the hammers. I did this a few days ago for a customer with a Welmar 5' 6" grand (in essence a Bluthner grand with a different name on the fall-lid, the frame design being identical to Bluthner). My customer was pleased to avoid too much expense, and the wear on the hammers wa mimimal. I've had 46 years experience as a piano tuner/technician.
@@timelwell7002Well, I am also a piano tuner / technician in the UK with 40 + years experience. I have never heard a wippen (standard UK spelling, was officially 'whippen' in the USA until their ptg decreed they should drop the 'h') simply referred to as a 'lever'. Also, the method of voicing here is not what you would use on a concert grand in a large venue I agree, but it doesn't claim to be. This method ('granny voicing' of old pianos) is regarded as 'standard practice' among all the technicians I know, for old uprights. Especially where the cost of more precise work, or new hammers, is not warranted, or where it would exceed the value of the piano or the size of the customer's purse. It's a method I learned as an apprentice many years ago. I was also taught that the goal of a piano tuner / technician is to make the piano sound as pleasing to the customer's ear as is possible taking into account 1. the type of music they play (which may affect whether you tune to equal or a 'period' temperament). 2. the condition of the instrument 3. how much the customer can afford to pay 4. how the piano is to be used (public or private, moved regularly or static etc) and 5. the environment in which the piano is (usually) situated. In my opinion, and how I was taught, you can't just deal with the piano alone and insist on only doing the absolute best thing for just the instrument without including all the other factors of piano ownership. I've successfully used the method shown in this video for years with no negative issues and very positive feedback from customers. Of course, I wouldn't use it on the concert grand piano in our City hall etc, but that is a very different situation and not one that this video is suggesting should be used in such a case!
@@DAVE121063 I understand very well that working on, say a modest upright in someone's home, and played by an average ability pianist, is a different scenario from restoring a Concert Grand for an Arts Centre, etc. I also understand very well that some customers are able to pay for full restoration, where others have to work to a budget. That said, if hammers are rather worn, sometimes return tapes might be perished and in danger of breaking, and balance hammer leathers may also be worn. And as often as not, hammers, levers and jacks might be sticking, or perhaps loose, and re-centring of hammers/flanges, levers/flanges and levers/jacks may be needed (Dampers/flanges likewise). Thus it is often the case that the action will need to be dismantled anyway, in which case I'd re-face hammers individually if/as required and agreed with the customer. And if a piano is, say, an old over-damped design, it is often not cost effective to do much work on the piano at all - though if the instrument is of great sentimental value, and if the customer wishes, I'm happy to do whatever they wish me to do, just so long as they understand that undertaking a lot of work would not be cost-effective as such. I just wonder if you can achieve a good enough result by re-facing hammers several at a time and in situ? Do you find that you can take enough felt off the shoulders of each hammer to get somewhere close to a decent profile?
Sorry, didn't mean to come over as patronising. If the action is Indeed in such a state that the tapes are failing, felt falling off and buck skin needs replacing etc, then I would probably suggest (depending on individual circumstances and if the strings and tuning pins are ok) that I take the action back to my workshop and give it a thorough overhaul, including proper hammer refacing. I've actually got an upright action on my bench at the moment and will be carefully and properly filing the hammers on that. It is one of those rare overstrung but overdamped ones! It was the owner's father's piano and has great sentimental value. The owner is also a good friend of the family. The hammers will turn out better than if done in situ in the customer's home and will sound better as a result. Though I doubt that the customer will notice the difference! She's also an old friend of our family. I usually find though that the hammer felt gets very grooved and compacted and therefore over brightening the sound and the grooves in the hammers also tend to 'grip' the strings and not bounce back as quickly. This usually, in my experience anyway, happens long before anything else wears out and even before (re) regulation is necessary (even if it's desirable from a technician's point of view). In such cases, at least for the average household upright, a massive improvement in tone and repetition can be made by gently re-shaping the hammers in situ in my experience. Sometimes a gentle brushing with a soft wire (eg suede type) brush is more than sufficient to remove the surface compacted felt and restore the tone to a less harsh sound. Not ideal, but still a worthwhile improvement and at little cost to the customer. I usually get compliments on how nice it sounds in addition to how well tuned it is. That's good job satisfaction for me. Obviously, such operations are inferior to taking the action out and removing and properly re-surfacing the hammers. But in 99% of cases, it is perfectly good enough. To insist that a proper job 'only' or not at all, is not right in my opinion. I was taught that the job of a piano tuner is to make the piano sound as pleasing to the (customer's) ear as possible. I would not walk away knowing that I could have vastly improved the tone and playability in such a way that the customer would be very happy with and that won't cost them a fortune (for me to take stuff back to my workshop and charge by the hour). When I first started to play the piano as a child, I played at the local church. I soon asked for it to be tuned. The tuner said it was too dirty and too worn and not financially viable to repair. He wouldn't work on it at all, not even to tune it. That's what made me want to learn how to tune and repair pianos. The church kept the piano and it's still there! I keep it in tune, regulated and have now several times re-shape the hammers in situ. It sounds great! I don't think much of the attitude of the tuner that considered it beneath him to even touch it 40 odd years ago. It's not as if it were a concert grand in the City Hall!
I have two to three notes that are very harsh sounding the F F# and G on the C3, the place where the strings transition over from the base part of the harp to the upper part of the harp where they reside. These three notes are too bright and harsh to me and just do not sound evenly on the transition. I just had the piano tuned and the hammers reshaped by a professional, this is a used '57 Cable-Nelson/Elliot stamped harp, that I recently purchased. I did mention the harshness of these notes but the tech but didn't pick up on it and offer to soften the notes by using your needling technique. So I am on You Tube and the web trying to figure out what I can do to soften these three notes, the rest of the piano sounds great, the tech did a super job of tuning and reworking the heads, no real complaints. So your video was greatly appreciated and the question now is, do you have a problem a non tech piano player using your technique on his own piano or should this absolutely be done by a certified tech. What you did didn't look that hard and I am considering buying the tool and giving it a go. Just listening to your video really made my day. Thanks.
Sorry for the late response, it never notified me of your message! If you're still considering it I'd say if you're handy give it a go. It's your piano but just do a little bit at a time until it's where you want it. It's hard to undo a voicing.
Michael, don't you worry about flattening the strike point? I've always drawn the sandpaper toward the strike point on either side, and not round the hammer off.
You’ll only flatten the strike point if that’s all you sand. But they need the grooves filed out of them, otherwise there’s no point to sanding them in the first place. I start on one shoulder and work my way across the strike point to the other shoulder, maintaining the egg shape of the hammer. Depending on the quality of the felt I may need to work the shoulder I ended on back the other way a bit to make it look better. This is the way Yamaha trained me to do it many years ago.
The hammer is bouncing back noticably slower than one of its neighbors and so is making a kind of dull thud sound, that is why I am suspecting the jack springs and am going to take a hard look at them.
Thank you! typically the only times I encounter someone wanting to make it a lot brighter is maybe a church or a concert hall where they just want it louder. I hate recommending doing that because you usually end up having to lacquer the hammers which I don't like to do. There are ways to subtly brighten the tone and I do plan on covering those in a future video. Thanks for watching!
I did a little self on in my Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding by Arthur A. Reblitz, which I highly recommend in addition to reviewing RU-vids, The write up is far superior to most of the RU-vids I have reviewed. I bought the tool and gave it a go. It helped a little bit but after more study and observation of the piano action, especially the bounce back, I am now convinced I have a couple of "Dead Keys" because the jack springs are worn out. So, my next project is to replace the jack springs on the three keys that are so bad. If all goes well, then on to all of the other keys. BLEH!@#$. Thanks again for your video.
I’ll use extra material sometimes in the high treble where the strings have made it through to the wood core. But, attaching anything leads to having to use some sort of adhesive which usually stiffens the surface and has a brightening effect.
Thanks for the tutorial Michael, much appreciated. Could you tell me the specs on that Perma-file and where to find it please? I'm currently using a little sandpaper paddle from Schaff but you've convinced me to switch to a more permanent solution.
Thanks for watching! I believe there is both an 80 and 120 grit file, I use the lower grit 80, works much faster. Pianotek Supply is where I get mine from.
Thank you for all of your amazing videos, including this one. I wonder why you are reluctant to take the action out to reshape the hammers. I know you say that you vacuum afterwards, but I'm always a bit paranoid about creating dust and detritus on other working parts. Is there another reason it is advisable to leave the action in place? Thanks again.
Thanks for watching! Just because there’s not much/any benefit. If you remove the action you’ll still bring all the rest of the parts with you so you can’t get away from getting felt dust in the action. Also, the piano will hold the action and hammers much more stable than you can on anything else you put it on. Another reason is the dampers will still be in your way so you can’t get a better angle on the hammers until you get to the treble section without them. Lastly, a lot of upright pianos I encounter that need voicing are spinets with drop actions, those can be a real pain to remove including tying up the drop action stickers, so I avoid removing them unless totally necessary. Just some of my reasons, over the years I found I get the same or better results not pulling the action and I have never had any problems leaving it in.
Thank you so much for making this video. I always excited to know about the voicing the way your saw its very easy to understand for me. I have a questions. How dose is last after doing the this basic voicing and one more question. Is piano need to tune before and after doing this process?
Hello Bhavesh, thank you for watching! I find that it lasts at least until the next tuning, usually six months. I will usually touch up the voicing a little when I see them next but it won't need as much as the first time. Typically I will tune it before I voice it.
@@MrPianoTechThank you so much for your response. Really appreciate. 🙏 Just need to know that do you teach piano maintenance/Tuning and rebuild work? If yes then let me know because I am really interested as in my country there’s no option. Thank you! 🙏
I just recently purchased a brand new W. Hoffmann T128 by C. Bechstein. It’s an amazing upright piano, especially for the price. The tone and touch is fantastic all across, but I do have ONE annoying note that sounds way too harsh in my opinion, C3, exactly the mid strings start. Could it need a little bit of voicing you think?
@@MrPianoTech Woah, thanks for your prompt reply. Nice video btw. I need to do some filling on my older upright I decided to keep as well. It’s about 20 years old, great tone for what it is, but the treble hammers have those grooves and some are slightly unaligned. I’m going to rely on your techniques and the Reblitz book, at least on the old one, wouldn’t touch the new for training purposes. You got a new subscriber, thank you!
Thats the term “nasally”. We just bought a new grand piano and it doesn’t sound like the model at all. It sounds exactly this “nasally “ (like someone threw a blanket over the piano. It’s a 5’2”. The store owner is going to send out a tuner. I hope they can easily resolve this. Any recommended info to remedy this? Thanks for for the very informative video.
It's very possible it's the voicing, voicing will have a big impact on tone. A qualified technician will be able to determine the cause and the best way to go about altering the tone for you. In my experience voicing is the #1 way to get rid of a "tinny" or "nasally" tone.
Thanks for the video. I have had my piano voicing done a couple of times in the past, after a few months it returns back to the bright sounding. How can I permanently fix the problem? Will I need to get it voiced every a few months or would you recommend changing the hammers completely?
Hello. I just bought a used korean piano and it sounds silent and mellow like that. I want it to be more louder but not that bright. I want to make voicing with it, what part of the hammer should i do the needling?
Thank you for watching! Check the condition of the front of the hammers. If it's already pretty quiet the front of the hammers may be damaged to the point where they need to be reshaped which should brighten the tone back up. So see if the front of the hammers are very soft right now.
Thanks Mike. Is the front of the hammer the side you're needling in the video? Do you ever need to needle the back of the hammer too, and how do you know when you do? Would you have to pull the action to be able to reach the back part of the hammer? Thanks a lot, I find your videos very informative.
Thank you for watching! So technically you shouldn't needle the very front of the hammer directly on the strike point. The reason why is it can, very quickly, deaden the tone so much that the hammer could become useless with pretty much no tone at all. So you'll want to needle just to the top and bottom of the strike point at about a 45 degree angle toward the tail, so if you're needling on top of the strike point you'd be angling down with the needles. Grand hammers are much easier to get to, with uprights however, I rarely need to access the entire hammer to needle underneath the strike point. What I usually do is kind of "cut across" the strike point from the the top so that when the needle enters the hammer felt it will pass through the strike point but at a point deeper in the felt. I do it at about a 45 degree angle.
Hi! I noticed several other techs emphasising *not* to file off the grooves at the very top initially when reshaping, or at least to leave this to the very last, possibly to facilitate string mating. Could this be a grand vs upright distinction? In each case this advice was I think given for a grand action, which they'd removed from the case. Not a tech myself, just curious as an owner (of a grand). Thanks!
Not sure why someone would suggest not to reshape the part of the hammer where the problem is 🤔. All of the groves should be removed. Just make sure not to shave it flat but keep an egg shape to it.
@@MrPianoTech no suggestion that it shouldn't be done, as I wrote they were referring explicitly to not doing so *initially*, i.e. leaving it until a later stage, possibly to facilitate mating hammers with strings. Perhaps a minor point or even a matter of preference :)
