Great Celebrity Breakups: Winchester and John Browning 

The Godfather: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse." The Gunfather (John Moses Browning): "I'll make him an offer he must refuse."

Winchester sounds like they're in denial with the letter; "You didn't break up with me, I broke up with you!"

"This is perhaps the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever"

"Obscene and unprintable." One has to wonder how many details of history are lost due to this.

Those two white books are giving Ian bunny ears lol

4:15 can you IMAGINE if you went for a job interview and you got turned away because your future boss just straight up died? I'd take that personally, as an omen.

Winchester: you have to be crazy to want royalties Remington: sorry we are currently having a heart attack FN: we will pay you royalties in USD, francs, beer, waffles or any combination of the four.

It's amazing to think that all of this happened before such iconic firearms as the 1911 and the BAR. It must have been hard to watch the Brownings' incredible success after parting ways with them.

Whenever you hear a corporate exec say “we’ll be better off for it”….

FN: "sour grapes make the sweetest and most desirable wines in the right hands"

Breaking up with a "dear John Browning" letter?

"We'll be better off without them" Cue my favorite John Wayne quote from Rio Bravo. "We're gonna remember you said that!"

Reminds me of the Chicago Bulls talking about Michael Jordan, and saying the organisation was more important

“You’ll never hear about Browning again” Meanwhile, ~118 years later, Browning is hailed as one of the greatest firearms designers in history.

Ian never fails to convince me he'd have been just as good a teacher as a weapons expert. Love these mini documentary videos!

The lawyers did such a good job for themselves, that they couldnt undo what they'd done when the bosses changed their minds? Been there, done that 🤣

Ian's reaction to "the locking features only."

Interesting that a busy man like Browning apparently travelled frequently back and forth from America to Belgium. Remember this is the era before air travel, transatlantic travel meant lengthy trips on steamships.

When you have a golden goose, you'd do better to put up with it's honking every now and then

I loved my A-5. Another firearm I wish I had never sold. My dad bought it at a garage sale in Denver. The guy who sold it said the barrel was bulged. My dad bought it for $2.50 as a wall hanger. My dad had it on the rifle rack for 2 years when I started to look at it. I took it to work to have one if the gunsmiths to look at it and the silent owner who really only plays in the gunsmiths shop. He asked me what was wrong with it. I told him what the guy that sold it to us said and he looked at me all puzzled. 10 minutes later we were elbow deep into it. The barrel was perfect for being made in 1926. Turns out that the bolt block was worn out. We ordered a new one from Brownells. I can't tell you how many times Brownells has saved my bacon. Well I got my first gunsmithing project right in front of me. When we took it apart the block that is at the end of the bolt pushes up and locks a square 3/4 if a inch or so up into the rear tang of the barrel into a square hole and it pivots on a 1/4 curved outset ridge to act like a really good hinge. It's the best way I can put it. I had to machine the curved ridge so it would move smoothly in the slot and lock up in the barrel. For most gunsmiths this would have 5aken a hour with setup. Me not that fast. I spent about 8 1/2 hours machining it on equipment that was as old as I am. All 5 of the gunsmiths helped me but the owner was in control. I def everything he asked and when everything was said and done I fired line it was brand new. Between my dad and I we had less then $45.00 in it including flitz and Emory cloth. But I did it. I made the shotgun run like a champ. After that everytime a firearm was finished I would take it on the range and test fire it 5 rounds and I would put the brass and the target in the box. Sometimes I would write a note on the target for the owner. That was in 1998. Since then I lived at the gunsmiths shop helping anywhere they needed. I was lucky enough to have their trust and the ability to work on my own firearms whenever I wanted.i never had the time to take gunsmithing classes at the gunsmithing academy that was out in Lakewood Colorado. It seems to be one of the better well known gunsmithing schools. I still live by their advice. Never work on a firearm that isn't mine. That firearm that I say I will look at it my be a family herloom that can't be replaced.i know enough to be dangerous. I never work on a firearm without a real gunsmith president. I don't want to hurt anyone. If you don't know ask. If you have no one to ask then get professional help. You will save in the end and you won't lose sleep. Happy Safe Shooting 🇺🇸💪.

Benett must have rolled in his grave the day it was announced Winchester was being bought by the Browning company.

Are you telling me Tales Of The Gun wasn't entirely accurate? Say it isn't so.

The Sino-Soviet split of the US gun manufacturing environment.

Ordered the book and was impatient enough to order it on Kindle as well. Apparently, FN had their doubts about the Auto-5 as well. Not so much doubt about the design as much as FN was not heavily into sporting arms at the time. This attitude had changed by the time JMB designed the Superposed shotgun, undoubtedly due to the commercial success of the Auto-5.

Love my auto 5. Bought it with a broken firing pin. Gave the serial number to Browning, they sent me a new one free and told me it was made in 1930. Shoots great still

When you read the part about Browning getting the loser end of the deal, I immediately thought about the .50 Winchester Machine Gun caliber, the Winchester Automatic Rifle in WWII, the M1911 pistol, the Winchester M2 machine gun........ Oh wait, those were all designed by John Browning.

Bought Gorenstein’s book after your review and almost finished reading it. Well worth the money and an enjoyable reading, thanks Ian!

" we will do better without them then they without us." famous last words

The Guns of John Browning is an easy, very informative, read. Highly recommend.

In the breakup, Bennett kept Browning's two toy poodles and his mother's silverware set. Browning never forgave him for that. He loved those dogs and the only reason he didn't go all John Wick on Bennett was his strict religious background.

We've had a photo copy of that letter at the info desk for years. I love how you came to the same conclusion about Winchester not wanting the Auto 5 competing with the 97 that I came to myself a few years back.

Does anybody know where I find the original retail prices for guns like, say, the Browning Hi Power when it was first released in 1935?

The freedom that Browning got from that break with Winchester opened the door for the most productive time in John Browning's history and sealed him into the annals of early 20th Century Firearm Design whereupon nearly every other successful handgun, shotgun and machine gun owes debts to a Browning designs.

Comment for support! Thanks Ian, please keep up the work.

I have this book which complements Vanderlindens _FN Browning Pistols_ and _Browning Auto-5 Shotguns_ perfectly.

I'd love to see an in depth biography of Edwin Pugsley done. From what I understand, the man was the driving force behind getting Browning to work with Winchester during World War I.

Remington, Colt and FN must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I feel like this was one last attempt at Winchester asserting who rules BarterTown...and we all know how that ended

Always great to see a new informative video Ian keep up the great work!

Great story Ian I had never heard of this before. Thank you for telling us all about it.

Didn't even know about all of this, thanks for the story time Ian

If I had ever met John Moses Browning, I'd probably have a heart attack too! 🤣🤣

From what I remember from the book-which I bought on your recommendation-Matthew was the business guy and felt Browning was getting shafted by the one shot payment and pushed JMB towards the split. Also, Winchester supposedly was buying all the patents just so they would not worry about having to compete if he sold something to a different company, e.g. Colt, and during this time period JMB had invented an exceptionally large number of designs which increased the number of “non-viable” patents Winchester was buying, and they were not happy with that, either.

Thankful for your content on all things guns! Your one of the best sources of info and we're lucky to have you and your channel!

More of these kinds of videos Ian! This was great.

Without Browning, Winchester since then went into decline with the quality of its products. Smooth move, Bennett!

Great information, love listening to stories like this,👍

Thanks for the history lesson, Ian. I, sometimes think it's the best part of this channel.

I had no idea that browning had a toggle locking shotgun design. Very interesting

"You'll never hear about Browning again" Meanwhile JM Browning creates weapons that help win 2 world wars, the US Military is still running the M2 .50 cal and is hailed as one of the best weapons designers ever.

Another excellent back story, thanks Ian.

In Finland, we used to call all handguns 'prouninki' after John Moses Browning. My grandfather brought along a Colt revolver when he returned from America. He always referred to it as his prouninki. Likewise, my uncle brought back a Soviet Nagant from the front. Another prouninki.

This was a fantastic lesson thank you Ian.

Loved the video. Definitely should do more content like this.

I have an 1954 BELGIUM Browning A-5 "Sweet Sixteen" Gauge that my father had when he was just a wee lad. It had a Cutt's Compensator installed and came with a host of gaudy screw in chokes. I wouldn't even DREAM of parting with that thing. Best duck gun... EVER!!!

Great video, thanks for sharing.

Ian, I think this was your best video *ever!* And thanks to you, I just ordered the book on your right... THANK you, and stay well! ETA: I will place a printout of that letter in the book when it arrives!!

It's videos like this which are the icing on the cake which is Forgotten Weapons. Much appreciated & very informative.

Can you imagine if the Commandant of the U.S. Arsenal at Springfield wrote a similar letter in the 1920’s explaining his reason for firing John C. Garand?

This video reminds me the video about history of Colt-company. I really enjoyed it and I wish Ian would do similar videos about Winchester, Remington, FN and other major (and why not minor) companies.

What a great story! Thank you, Ian.

Great info, Ian. Love the history lessons!

Great stuff Ian, great stuff!

Love to hear the history as much as seeing the firearms, so I appreciate you making content like this. Also thanks to the Cody Arm Museum for their graciousness.

Storytime w/Ian, the best!. Thanks!

2:33 "they supplied us with the locking lugs only" you mean the most important part of every gun design? The bit that makes it not explode.

Love your vids Ian, always so informative, keep up the great, quality work!

This kind of sounds like Blockbuster video not buying Netflix during the 2000's.

If I ever payed this attention in school …. Thank you for taking the time to share this fantastic story!

Now this is a series worth making

Got a copy of the book after your initial review. Great read.

I enjoyed the video, thank you Ian

This book was definitely worth the buy, thanks for the review.

Great story! Such a huge effect on history as well. Thanks Ian. God bless all here.

Hopefully you will do more of this kind of contents

Thank you for a very good story.

Looking forward to reading that book.

Fantastic video.

Really love this "behind-the-scenes" history. Keep up the great videos, buddy. Maybe do a video on the lawsuit between Springfield and Mauser over the 1903, if you haven't already?

Thanks Ian. One of the fascinating things about History is the "Yes. They really did that." type of thing.. .

I've never been able to figure out how wealthy John Browning actually was. In addition to being a massive fan of the 1911, and therefore a massive fan of John Browning, I'm also a massive fan of Gilded Age mansions. I'm kinda crazy about them. Being a big fan of Browning, who was alive and invented all of his famous firearms during the heart of the "Glided Age", I figured that he probably had a huge Gilded Age mansion and I wanted to see what it looked like or if it was still standing. We are all familiar with the Winchester House, and I figured that Browning would've also built a large mansion befitting his (assumed) wealth and societal status. Either he wasn't as wealthy as I thought he would be, or he had far more restrained tastes because while he DID build himself a mansion, it was not one of those 40,000+ square foot Gilded Age masterpieces. It was still a large mansion, but not massive. It is supposedly about 6,700 square feet (although it absolutely does NOT look THAT large) and was built in Ogden, Utah in 1900. Believe it or not, it still stands to this day. So I'm curious if Ian knows anything about Browning's net worth in his later life? I always assumed that Browning was EXTREMELY wealthy just based on not only the number of guns he invented, but the fact that many of them became literally some of the greatest, most used firearms in human history and many of those were adopted by the US military and the militaries of other countries as well. However, there don't seem to be any accurate descriptions of his net worth...at least none that I've been able to find. I'm really curious to know how big of a fortune Browning amassed from being the inventor of some of the greatest firearms in human history

Somehow, I think these are my favorite type of Forgotten Weapons videos

Without John Browning the firearms industry wouldn't have grown the way it did. The man was a genius from working with the lever guns and making a 1887 model lever action shotgun, which he didn't really want to do as he was working on a different shotgun, he contributed to pump actions and semi auto's in the A5 series. The man was a genius when it came to understanding how firearms needed to be reliable and functional and not a single person can deny that he no doubt directly contributed to the advancement of firearms as we know them today.

...that letter is an all time CLASSIC!!!

Winchester couldn’t shine John Moses Brownings shoes. JMB was the most prolific ahead of his time gun inventor in the history of the universe. Most well known gun inventors like Glock, Luger, Thompson, ect. we’re fortunate to invent one gun. Browning invented dozens of popular and successful weapons. Some our modern military still uses today. The 1911 45acp alone would have made Browning a legend.

Bravo spectacular thank you for your knowledge and expertise I had no idea

A great video. There have been several versions of 'what happened' between Browning and Winchester. Personalities were clearly a factor...

I have always been a Browning fan . Thank you for more insight

Winchester: makes what Ian refers to as "Possibly the worst business decision of all time" Onlyfans: "Records are meant to be broken"

“The locking features only” you mean the thing that keeps it from blowing up in the user’s face.

The Guns of John Moses Browning is an extremely well written book and id highly recommend it.

I was just at the Cody Firearms Museum and saw it there. Awesome summer vacation with my son.

For added perspective, after this breakup Browning would go on to develop the 1911 pistol, the BAR, the M2 .50 cal, the .45 ACP cartidge, and .50 BMG (granted, Winchester would help in the development of some of these, but most of the licenses would be under Colt)

Interesting, entertaining, informative, fun ... Yes! It's a Gun Jesus video... :-) Personally, I'd never heard of the 'sour grapes' letter but thanks for making the whole story come to life for us, Ian, you have a knack.

So which is a worse business decision in firearms history, Winchester letting Browning go, or Borchardt refusing to improve his pistol when DWM asked him to?

Thank you Ian! I just knew the version you spoke of, ending with JMB in the Remington CEO's waiting room, and the CEO being wheeled out on a gurney, and not coming down for breakfast the next day, etc. Winchester's lawyers evidently did their job very well, to the eventual detriment of their client. LOL The big W made a lot of cabbage with JMB, and just imagine if they had given him what he asked for... FN would still be chugging along, doing their thing(s), The Winchester Auto-5 would be a smash hit, and there would never be a Remington Model 11, 1100, etc. Hard to even imagine. Thanx again Ian!

Just caught this video... I am buying that book right now.

I grew up next door to a man named Dale Browning.... Yes, that family. What a wonderful break up ! My neighbor was a wealth of knowledge. As a teenager, I could listen to my neighbor for hours.

I scooped up an A5 Light Twelve a few years ago for a song. Haven’t shot it yet but I do enjoy looking at it when I go into the safe for other accoutrements

I really enjoy these snippets of firearms history stories