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I think Hazbin struggles from “we need to get shit done” syndrome, where the writers are worried about it getting cancelled so are just rushing through what they want to get done cause they probably didn’t know if they were going to get another season at the time of writing it.
I get that but wouldn't it be better to start cashing in on "unresolved plotlines" than "overly resolved plotlines"? Like try to pull an infinity train and make the show as mysterious as possible so that the audience has more reasons to keep watching?
Not to mention that they have a very vocal fanbase that has been waiting for this for nearly a decade, and as a result can be a little... bloodthirsty.
I think Poison is showing just how Angel views himself and what he does. He's trying to convince himself nothing's bad cause he dosen't have a choice, but by the end he can't help but breakdown.
Actually I'd argue Angel does think he has a choice, but thinks he's choosing to have a bad life. When in reality, Val can do basically whatever he wants to him, and he really has no choice.
@@47ratsinahoodieit might be in between. He HAD a choice, and this life is now the consequences. He sees his slavery to Val (cuz ya know, he literally owns Angels soul) as his own fault.
Beautifully said 👏 It seems like Poison is Angel battling with the duality of his life: enjoying what he does but being forced to do it.....freedom without freedom Episode 4 hit me like a ton of bricks 😢
A small pet peeve I have with the show is that many of the musical numbers come in too abruptly, it feels like sensory whiplash. I wish they would introduce the musical motif as background music first, as the characters are having an emotional moment, and then it would build up to the characters signing. Vox and Alastor’s duet in Episode 2 did this and I feel that is the cherry on top that makes this song so good! The music needs to follow the story’s writing and build as emotions build up. They shouldn’t be sprinkled in as an afterthought, even if the songs are well written
Yeah, I felt this most acutely in ep 3 with “respectless” and “whatever it takes,” it sort of felt like coming out of nowhere and took me out of the scene, and it’s happened with some other songs too. I agree, the song between Vox and Alastor had that bit of build up of the music in the speaking, giving it some room for set up and then execution, which worked a lot better. There seems to be a sense of abruptness in the writing in general, which can sometimes add to the humour, but often leaves an empty sense of whiplash with a bit of “trying too hard to be quirky” that doesn’t quite vibe with me, but that could just be me idk.
eh it's a musical. It didn't really bother me that much and it does kind of just come with the medium. That being said, it's totally understandable if you feel that way especially since hazbin is the first musical in a long time to find this much success
@@fool1044 the issue is how some songs feel like they've been slapped there because "we want it to be a musical" instead of it seguing into the episode. Helluva Boss in general did that well, so did the pilot (if i may say so). Here, a number of them feel like "dropped in".
@@gaydemon5708in the Pilot, most of Helluva Boss and, say, a disney movie, you usually have a lead up to a song, something that meks it feel naturally part of the scene, the world. (Make a man out of you is, imho a neat example for a song that really makes sense in universe as well as for the viewer). Here? Tense moment.... and song.
6:38 As an old fan of Hazbin Hotel, I know Viv said the strongest overlords are Zestial, Camilla and Vox, so I won't have questions or feel like the content is rushed. But now, I realized a huge problem: Viv used too many ways to discuss the story's detail with fans, like Social Media, live streaming or purchased discord Q&A. Sometimes she just forgot there's someone never touched the show or someone watched the pilot only.
Did she say those were the top 3? Where does that put Alastor?🤔 Ep 2 already established Vox is scared of him (because deep down, he knows Al is stronger) not to mention, Velvet stating she is the "backbone" of the V's Sorry for the tangent lol I'm just genuinely curious if Viv remembers her original hierarchy
@@michellewilliams9895 with Velvet, I wouldn't be surprised if she's not actually more powerful than Vox, but is just arrogant and has HBIC energy lol. She could also just be a huge factor in their accumulation of power and influence without actually being the most powerful between the three - i.e. her work with keeping up with trends to keep the three of them in the limelight is the reason Vox, Valentino, and herself are so powerful collectively.
@@michellewilliams9895 Viv might retcon those content. Since A24 bought the show, some of the story setting changed. And actually hierarchy isn't important,.
@@michellewilliams9895 The main idea that I wanna express is "Viv used to mention the character", and we watch the pilot like Sherlock Holmes (Camilla appears 01:31, pilot). So we won't feel unexpected and unfamiliar. But, definitely not friendly to new audiences.
Alastor is working for Lilith. It would explain his power, his 7 year disappearance, same as Lilith's, and his sudden out of nowhere interest in Charlie's scheme.
I just really hope that if he does is for his own motives and interests and no one else, and she's just another "medium" for him, more than him being a henchman of hers.
Well, the pilot did show Alastor saw Charlies pitch on TV with Katie, so while it's possible he was put up to this, imo it's also possible he did do this of his own volition. Still, I am also inclined to think he's not just doing this for shits and giggles as he claims, I definitely suspect he has an ulterior motive. I think the business regarding Alastor's "deals" is an underrated plot mystery I hope they're cooking something with. It sounds like he has a deeper history with the V's than we currently know given that Val claims he owes them a lot more than money, I wonder if they made a deal with Alastor they couldn't keep and what the ramifications of that are. I also wonder if this is building to Charlie eventually having to make a deal with Alastor to fix something out of her control, maybe like the next extermination, and thus giving him some kind of magical control over her. It sounds like there's a history being kept hidden from the audience about what a deal with Alastor means and why you generally don't want to make one with him, something even Charlie, the daughter of Lucifer and the heir of hell who is protected from exterminations, was careful not to do, and that to me is a very intriguing idea that makes me wonder just how powerful Alastor is and why he is so powerful.
i'd hope not to be honest just cuz connecting the two seems kinda random and desperate for family drama involving alastor. But his character really doesnt seem like he would bother to do the Queen of Hell's bidding just for something like power or having fun. Being controlled in that way seems kinda out of character
@@sev1120 But that also implies that he has a background connection with lillith based on dependence. I just dont see Alastor to be the type to ask someone like lillith for help. Maybe to make a deal, but even that seem way above his paygrade as an overlord.
The weird duet almost made it seem like Vaggie and Carmila had some sort of deeper connection that isn't actually there. Almost like Vaggie was the daughter she was trying to protect. Also Angel, Husk, Niffty, and Alastor = the quad of amazingness
Thinking about it, Vaggie and Carmila have a lot of common design cues... Purple-ish gray skin, gray-white hair, they're both latinas, they're very protective of someone else, they both have a soldier/war theme (Vaggie claims the best way to build trust is in a turf war, Carmila being an arms dealer), etc. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but perhaps they do have a deeper connection: a similar life when they were human? Although if that is the case, they should've explored said connection before throwing in the duet...
@@hoshueyeplopper4465 True, although neither possibilities have been confirmed. Considering most other overlords are sinners, I assumed she was one too. Besides, she can still have daughters as a sinner (either because she adopted Odette and Clara as her daughters in hell, or she was their mother when she was alive)
As an sa survivor myself, i love episode 4. I hate the perfect victim complex in media and honestly wider society. This stuff messes you up, deeply. I see it as an impact point that causes cracks that weave through every part of your life. For years i felt like my body didnt belong to me and seeing that feeling externalized and made literal, idk it feels validating. I love poison, both the song itself and the sequence. I love Angel, i love that he's messy, i love that he copes through hypersexuality bc thats such a stigmatized but excruciatingly real thing. Episode 4 was the highlight of the show so far for me
It's great that you think it's good!/gen. All survivors' voices matter! But.. just to let you know, Viv hired and supports someone who worked on *that* scene who sees sa as a k!nk :(
@@AverageDonaldDuckFan It can be in a consensual way. It's less about SA at that point, and more about just roughness. That person I am pretty sure didn't mean to come off as supporting SA, just that they like the idea of it happening to them, in a consensual way. That is a kink you are allowed to have.
@androow1983 nah man, they said on their Twitter that they ship Val and angel as an R ship. They aren't even a survivor themselves, just a proshipper. They aren't using it as a way to cope at all.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I really liked the Poison sequence. The juxtaposition of Angel being sensual and seemingly enjoying aspects of this lifestyle with the true darkness and abuse underneath the sexy appearance was striking. I feel like that’s what’s so insidious about it - it may look appealing but it’s really enslaving.
I think those moments in Poison where Angel seems to be enjoying his lifestyle add a lot. It really makes you understand how someone can get stuck in a vicious cycle like this; it *was* fun at one point, and it still can be at times, but you can't escape it, even as the bad starts to vastly outweigh the good. It also gives Angel as a character more agency, as he's not just trying to escape one bad man, but his own self-destructive habits/coping mechanisms.
Yeah, I don't know if it's because of or despite his trauma, but Angel _is_ hypersexual, and he's allowed to be that even if Val is abusing him. So for Poison to show Angel _having fun_ with drugs and sex and then immediately show how those things aren't enjoyable when Val's involved is brilliant
I mean if you’ve been around drug addiction it always seems they’re happier when they’re using. But using is just masking the shit around them and their own feelings. I was literally living in garbage dunk all the time and it wasn’t till I sobered up that I realized I wasn’t having fun.
A big worry I’ve personally got is that this may become a trend with modern animated series, writers constantly trying to get shit done super fast because of watching their predecessors get cut short so just wanting to sprint full speed to cram whatever they can into one or two seasons. Hazbin’s rushed pace was most likely a mix of wanting to give the fans what they’ve wait for for six years and the writers on the show fearing cancellation so just wanting to throw whatever they can in a short period of time out of fear.
@@BrokensoulRider Partly true. But i think it's important to remember viziepop's school of writing is that there is a clean break between "Filler" and "Plot", the idea that any episode that doesn't directly advance a major arc is wasting everyone time. Helluva boss also has this kind of very rushed pace going.
This is exactly why I was pleased to see Tracy Butler planned on producing Lackadaisy independently. As long as Iron Circus retains creative freedom, they won't have the same worries Spindlehorse currently does. Those worries being the product of corporate oversight, of course.
There was this one show (don't remember the name) that would write every Season as a self contained story, with everything wrapped up by the end so you don't have any questions or left on a cliffhanger if it got canceled. If only Viv had a writing team like that.
I personally loved that Angel and Husk were able to laugh together at the end and help each other feel safe, despite the situations they're both in. It would feel way too rushed if Angel went and talked back to Valentino in the same episode. I think the episode helped viewers learn a ton about the characters and also set them up for big redemptions later on
I can live with getting the 'Who killed the angel' reveal so early. What I don't like is that Carmilla's introduction, her character motivations, the set up of her role in the future conflict, and the dynamics between her, Zestial, and her children was raced through in a song just to give Alastor another card to play in his deck.
Yeah, you can really tell who Vivienne's favorite character is and it sucks. As someone who likes Alastor, I would really prefer that stopped happening 😭 It doesn't need to be all about him all the time. You'd think he or Angel were the actual main character.
@@cam_luong I get that Alastor is Viv's son and she's had him since middle school so she has a very special attachment to him. I feel the same way about some characters I have, but you could at least give Carmilla and the others the courtesy of better time management. I would have loved for Clara and Odette to tag team Velvette in the second half of Respectless so we could get idea of who they are and seeing Carmilla be proud of them.
@@Badgermoles4444 Exactly, I also have favorite OCs. Yeah, I dislike that he takes up so much runtime when exploring others might've made it better. Her daughters joining the song would've been awesome! Also sad that I'm just now learning their names.
@@cam_luong I only know their names because of the subtitles. I'm not saying we need an entire episode dedicated to Carmilla and her daughters. That'd be inefficient, but use them with the time you have! Even if it's a little bit, I want to see Carmilla be a loving mother with daughters feel the same for her for her decision to give up Hell for them to have weight.
I gotta say, I don’t know how or why but for me EVERY one of Vaggies lines felt under delivered. I feel like there’s gotta be something happening with the direction since she’s got a really talented VA.
if I had to guess they wanted the deadpan rosa voice but without rosa. Also it just seems like they’re against making her a 3 dimensional character. Rosa works so well because her deep voice isn’t the only thing about her.
I think it's just not in the VA's register. She has to play a deep voice when her natural tone is medium to high, so playing a character like this restricts her ability to emote properly. Going too high might break character and going low would strain. I wish they gave the VA more freedom
RIGHT?! I love the show but I hated how the VA portrayed her "alastor. We. Need your. hELp 😐" That line almost made me turn off the show it bothered me so much 😭
I imagine it's a matter of direction, but on top of that I think I'm still just too used to Vaggie's voice in the pilot and how Monica Franco managed to balance both soft-spoken lines and emotionally frustrated ones.
@@airplanes_aren.t_real idk if the show could even portray such a topic well, should they choose such a plotline. It's not exactly a topic that can just be "touched on" since it needs even more tactful thought than even s-assault and r*pe.
I think both Vaggie and Charlie have a lot of growing to do, and they need to grow as characters and as a couple. Yes, they’re supposed to be dating, but there’s such a Pearl-Rose Quartz dynamic between the two, and that’s not a good thing. “I’m supposed to protect you”, “ I want to be your safe Harbor”, etc. Vaggie acts like she owes her life to Charlie, instead of being a partner. And Charlie is so impulsive and doesn’t think things through that she doesn’t even realize that she needs to be on the same level with Vaggie. Charlie needs to calm down and mature, and Vaggie needs to overcome this “do it for her” complex. That’s personally one of my biggest flaws so far is that we don’t see them actually be a couple other than a couple of seconds here and there. As for the Alister thing: I am curious if his disappearance had anything to do with Lilith’s 7 year disappearance, Since he was also gone for 7 years, and if they’re connected or just a coincidence.
This is the dynamic I was looking for! I didn’t even think of that! Charlie is literally the Princess of Hell, and Vaggie is a regular sinner. How did they end up together and how is that power dynamic going to be addresed?
Yea the Rose/Pearl vib is strong now, a vibe I didn't get in the Pilot, which was more an 'opposites attract' vib. And that's making the characters less interesting for me because that dynamics already been done by SU in a way I do not think HBH is going to have any chance of equaling or improving on and that it's going to feel like a weak immitation rather then have it's own dynamic.
Can we talk about just how great of a song LOSER BABY is ?? the messaging, the build up, the resoltion, KEITH DAVID and omg the music it was all so spot on.
And then by the later part of season 1 we START to get that worldbuilding, and that goes into season 2. Which is usually better than season 1. I'm expecting the same here. I'm expecting the latter half of season 1 will be the sht everyone likes, and season 2 will be overall better, but this show's pacing is as fast as Sonic can run.
Husk and Angel's song is so refreshing because its essentially two people who've been pretending to be someone they're not or not caring about anything opening up and admitting to their mistakes.
I theorize that the only reason Carmilla Carmine was able to kill an angle was simply because it was an act of virtue. Allow me to explain, basically Carmilla saw her daughters about to be attacked by an exterminator and in an act of pure motherly love she jumped in front of it to protect them, not caring in that moment if she didn’t survive so long as they did, which (unbeknownst to her) gave her the power needed to kill an angel. In short she won because she was being driven by pure love against an enemy that was driven by pure hate.
That would fix a lot of the show’s writing and actually make the hazbin hotel relevant again. If they need people of virus to fight heaven, they need a place where demons can be reformed
With Angel’s story line, a video by Johnny 2 Cellos makes a good point by pointing out that Charlie basically tries to help Angel without thinking about the consequences there might be for him. Like she shows up, tries to get Valentino to give Angel more time off, and doesn’t stop to think how what she does might affect Angel himself
Thats my biggest problem with charlie. She seems to be treated and acts like a literal child. Like she isn't a grown woman who grew up in HELL. Even if shes sheltered and naive, its genuenly like shes a 13 year old. And it doesnt help how much Vaggie and everyone else babies her. It doesnt make sense why Angel wants to protect her because we never seen them interact one on one. She straight up causes him to get abused, and Vaggie doesnt even tells her how it is, that it was her fault.
As an SA and grooming survivor, Angel makes me feel seen. Yes, the content is dark, and it is very very hard to digest, but that’s real. That’s what makes it so real. And I don’t think the scenes where Angel was smiling and dancing with Valentino was “glorifying” abuse as some dumb Twitter users seem to think. To me, it perfectly encapsulates the rose tinted glasses feelings you get from your abuser and the honeymoon phases. Those brief and few and far in between moments that make you feel as if they might actually care about you and your wellbeing, only to be brought back to the abuse and the reality of it all. There’s honestly no way you can go about this topic that will ever make it feel comfortable. And like I said, while it’s most definitely not easy to digest, it’s real and as a survivor myself, I personally don’t feel disrespected.
Firstly, I’m an SA survivor. Years of it. Angel’s story is incredibly relatable to me, even if our coping mechanisms were wildly different. Poison was a GUT PUNCH and I thought it did his situation justice. One of the ways I personally coped with the abuse was to try and weaponize it like Angel: “I’m not being used; I’m just a bad bitch who’s sexy and I love doing what I do. Everything is totally fine.” And, of course, human sexuality isn’t a bad thing. We should be comfortable in our bodies and show appreciation for our skill sets and whatnot. Poison showed that duality by having moments where Angel would *appear* to be fine (whether for the cameras or to convince himself) interspersed with flashes of his true horror coming through. I personally think he enjoys the dancing parts where he’s alone because he gets to express his acting and movement talent, and then Valentino coming in to drag him off shows that chain and fear associated with him having to express those talents in such a controlled and confining environment. AKA Angel is proud of his skills and would have a blast getting to do so on his own terms, but it’s Val’s control and abuse that ruins Angel’s experience. Sure, you can call the episode bringing up these topics fast. But not everyone’s experience with discovering their loved one’s abuse is slow. Often you see little signs (Angel’s phone blowing up on more than one occasion in the previous episodes, the way he felt uncomfortable and tossed aside by Charlie and Vaggie’s dismissiveness when Sir Pentious joined-specifically with the whore comments-Husk calling him fake multiple times in the episodes, and the worry he has just before the major part of the episode focusing on him) and then all of a sudden the abuse is in your face. Because abusers don’t act like villains all the time: they pretend to be normal until suddenly they aren’t. Even here in hell, Val’s behavior can be smokescreened to the gang as typical needy boss shit. No one seemed to know until Charlie showed up and Angel was punished for it. Honestly I think that they handled the situation very well. I didn’t feel talked down to, so to speak, about how abuse works in the episode. Honestly I could explain more but I’m afraid I’m running in circles as it is. I just think the episode was very genuine, and both Poison and Loser made me cry. Could just be that my own path to healing started with acknowledging I’m a loser like everyone else, too, and anyone else could have been in my shoes/it wasn’t my fault I got taken advantage of. But I genuinely don’t see anything wrong with the fourth episode. The third, though. Yeah. That whole thing about unearned conflict was 100% right with Carmilla unless we find out she and Vaggie are related somehow, and Vaggie’s issues come out of left field smh. Edit: WTF IS THIS COMMENT SECTION LMAAAAOOO 😂 Beware the obvious troll below!
Honestly I feel like if Charlie had been any sort of effective in helping the situation THAT would've been more condescending than what actually happened
@@Featheryfaith7 I think because showing ALL of that would have been too uncomfortable and disturbing for some, a lot of people felt discomfort already with the censorship
I actually like how they're handling Valentino. We put evil on a pedestal way too damn often. These people are usually massive losers. You see this especially in serial killers. It's always how charming they are to their victims and authority. But if you actually look into their life growing up, their life and personal relationships before their first kill, it's filled with examples of how much of a loser they are. That doesn't mean their actions aren't still horrifying and terrifying. But being a monster and being a fucking loser are not mutually exclusive.
"But being a monster and being a fucking loser are not mutually exclusive." This needs to be on one of those self-empowerment / inspirational boards somewhere. Honestly, a good reminder for many.
THIS OMG, STOP RESPECTING THEM. I appreciate that he's both terrifying in the context of his power over angel, but this doesn't make him smart or admirable.
4 месяца назад
So you are calling people, many of whom suffered horrendous physical abuse, sexual abuse and neglect as children, losers? Jesus WTF is wrong with you? So if someone gets raped by their grandparent like Aileen Wuornosv, that made her a loser, not the murders she comitted? And to be clear, you did say that "But if you actually look into their life growing up, their life and personal relationships before their first kill, it's filled with examples of how much of a loser they are." Ah yes being victims of sexual abuse, violence, neglect all that makes the victim such a loser....... seriously get some help.
@@ijornhribrudkrvir that's not the point I'm trying to make. I never said anything about "Respect". A lot of the criticism I've seen about Valentino's character is that victims are being disrespected because Valentino's treated like a joke whenever he's not abusing. But that's the point. Abusers, and other terrible people, aren't monoliths. They're not infallible, charming, and serious all the time. They're usually massive losers. So to show how pathetic he is when w/ friends or on his own shows exactly what these "monster" are really like. My point is that we need to stop taking these monsters seriously. To any extent. Are they terrible? Yes. Are they dangerous? Yeah. That doesn't stop them from being pathetic individuals.
This is actually constructive criticism, i like the show, it's very nice, but yes, the writing is very fast paced. Toxic haters and lovers of the show should take notes.
Agreed! Just finished episode four and as someone who loved the pilot, I’m sitting here wondering what went wrong? But this video breaks it down nicely
Yeah, and I'm unfortunately not surprised that Viv might struggle to find the constructive criticism because it can get mixed up in a sea of the bad faith criticisms and toxicity/harassment miasma (and trying to discern which criticism is which can take a toll on everyone's healthy). The good side of social media being that more artists can get their works seen by more people/network, and there's now indie artists like Vivzie that have the opportunities to break out and have attention for their works that wouldn't have been as possible in pre-Internet times. On the other hand, it also means opening yourself up to unvetted/bad faith criticisms as well as unnecessary hate/harassment, so it becomes a struggle to discern through the noise which is constructive and which isn't, as well as most artists having to make a choice if making art/media a job instead of a hobby is for them or not. I don't blame Vivzie for struggling with all this fame/attention, since a lot of people struggle with poor mental health partially from the Internet/social media every day. 0_0
@@Scarshadow666 Hypocrite. All of you fans ironically destroyed her and she destroyed herself. Foreshadowing is art depending on how you write it. Prophecies can change too. Still art. Please leave Vivziepop alone. Im sorry but this is WHY I left the film industry and art idustry. Do you want me to **REVEAL** on how much I feel right now? I just cannot stand the corporate crap either. Same thing happened to Ralph Bakshi. So all of you. Please stop and stop asking for proof all the time. Annoying..☦
As a feminine guy and SA survivor who also has had no choice but to do SW and has been in abusive relationships, I had a strong emotional reaction to episode 4. It wasn’t pleasant but that was not a bad thing. I appreciate it and feel seen. I relate to this character in quite a few other ways and that’s not something I really get very often.
Honestly it was refreshing (doesn't feel like the right word) to have media show the other side of the coin. It really is nice to know you aren't alone, and why representation matters so much.
Yeah, went through a similar thing, but I feel like Amazon should've REALLY put a Content Warning on the "Poison" sequence. I know it's Angel and everything with him is gonna be messy, but man, when I saw that scene it uh... affected me badly to say the least. Either way, I agree, love Angel 💖
when I was a young 16 year old boy, a horrible person SA'd me and sold my "stuff" online. What she did to me made me very hypersexual, and so far, I've lost that tendency, to a degree. That's why episode 4 hit so deep for me. And hanging out with other victims of advantageous people, really helped a lot. I really connected with a woman who was taken advantage of, not in a sexual way, but basically her life. She got lucky to survive. Also why episode 4 hit so deep.
As a Screenwriting student, I often write big scenes first to get the ideas onto paper and to map out what I want to build up to. Hazbin feels like the writers did that, but then just put them back to back instead of writing up or considering build up. The entire point of a TV show is that you have more time to flesh out your characters and story than a movie or pilot. And the devs of Hazbin don’t seem to have realised that. Relax, guys, you’ve got time. Use it.
They kinda don’t have time, they were only given 8 30 minute episodes and likely didn’t expect a season 2. Their cast of characters that they want to develop is also huge. They wanted to develop vaggie, Charlie, angel, pentious, husk, alastor, Adam and now Cherri. That’s not even counting the supporting characters, villains and future characters that could be redeemed in season 2
@@runk3216 That’s fair, but I do think that the series could have used some better planning/workshopping. There’s a phrase in screenwriting, “Kill your darlings” and I definitely think there’s some stuff in here that could’ve been cut to make the story more concise. Episode amount doesn’t always excuse/equate a crowded and rushed-feeling story.
@@sugarpuffartemis I agree, some things prob could’ve been cut. Still I’m fairly glad we got what we got, I like how they’re developing all the chars so far, despite it being rushed. There’s a purpose to pretty much all of scenes in the show so far, I just wish there was time for a tiny little bit of filler so we have more of a connection to the chars, especially charlie, vaggie, and alastor
@@runk3216 Absolutely. It seems that the reception is mostly positive, and knowing how crazy fandoms can be, that’s a pretty good achievement. The show came out good from what I’ve seen, but definitely could’ve used some filler (I.e. negotiating on that episode amount of possible.)
I wish more criticism toward Vizie’s work was done as respectfully as this. It’s not like anyone’s work should be immune from criticism. But when you do it as too many people have done to Vizie, ie treating every writing or personal decision she makes like she killed your cat, nothing is accomplished.
Entirely fair to say, don't get me wrong! I just feel like people too often only want people critiquing to act better and turn a blind eye to what can sometimes be explosive reactions to actual mild criticism. Def think people should be more normal! But also feels like a double standard as if it's not reasonable for some people to act more angry if their being treated that way(not even that it's morally okay just yk)
Its not just that, they criticize her about everything and make any small detail into some massive issue. And then there's all the complaints about episode 4's portrayal of SA and saying that its making a joke out of the situation which, even if the stuff could be done better, it is definitely not making a joke out of SA. Often the majority of criticism nowadays is people wanting to complain and finding something popular to target, and if its an Indie thing then they have more reason as to spite them for actually making it big.
a reasonable and level-headed claim? on the internet? impossible but yeah i wish people would leave personal biases out of the show and look at it more objectively without being just whining over and over again
I think some people might be over-exaggerating their hatred for both shows because a part of them is just angry that this is the work that got so much attention when there's better stories out there.
I mean that goes two ways, I feel a lot of criticism about the show is done by people who don't have actual criticism but they do it as an outlet for all their negative attitudes while also you cannot say any remotely constructive criticism because God forbid this show isn't the best thing ever (I'm being sarcastic, the show is solid but needs to improve on a lot of stuff but try and make a member of the Fandom see that)
With the people critical of Poison, that was mainly because of a leak that was purposely taken out of context. After the entire scene was out I’ve actually seen a lot of people, especially victims of SA, saying that they really liked it and felt seen. And I actually really liked Valentino’s 180 shift because it establishes how he is with his actual partner vs his victim. With Vox he’s comfortable enough to be a little more dumb and childish, but Vox is also notably the only person he listens to and the only person who can calm him down. They’re mutually condescending towards each other, but there’s still respect there. Also it can be argued that Val in ep 2 is shown by Vox’s POV, and a sexy but hotheaded dummy may be how Vox sees him. With Angel Dust, there is no respect and acknowledgement of identity. Angel to Val is simply just property that makes Val a ton of money, he is basically a rowdy pet that Val has to manage. And this time Val is shown by Angel’s POV, Angel sees him as a psychopathic monster, hence why he is one in this episode.
agree, his relationship with vox shows more than anything that he's a massive control freak+pyschopath. this forces vox to actually compose him constantly like what we've seen already, since his destructive and abusive personality would inevitably get him into dumb shit. while with angel he's more confident and maintains his "image" of dominance over him. it makes him terrifying tbh
@@Birdyboys Of course some would. Everyone processes trama differently, and the scene (or any scene involving SA) is already meant to make you uncomfortable. So while some people were understandably triggered, others felt seen. At the very least, a good portion of the Spindlehorse workers are openly survivors of SA, and you can tell the scene was handled with a lot of care. As a result, this will hopefully raise awareness for SA and the toll it has on its victims.
@@SophieTheSarcastic Not sa victim, but as an abuse victim, I can relate with a lot of the emotional turnabouts depicted in the music video. I think the execution was fine, but it can definitely trigger people. I find it pointless to argue about that however, since, you know, many shows do the exact same thing yet most people don't bat an eye, ESPECIALLY when it comes to depiction of physical abuse, this stuff never gets a cw. I generally support the idea of placing content warnings before episodes on shows. It's not like one warning of sexual violence will spoil the series or anything. I believe people have just grown used to nitpicking vivzie's works at this point. Say what you want about her, but girl can't catch a break. Verbalase did not help 💀
Valentino being an offkilter whiner at the start was pretty brilliant. With what little we had seen of him before, he SEEMED to be a stone-cold crime lord, and that’s how they fandom ran with him. But now, seeing and hearing him has remove the power fantasy. We’re being told point blank how controlling abusers are some of the most pathetic and insecure people alive. Without Angel Dust, Valentino reminded me a lot of Gideon Graves. (And not the woobified one from SP Takes Off.)
I think one of the main issues Hazbin has right now is that it has a lot to tell in a short time. It might sound unrealistic given how long this took to release but I feel Viv and the team should’ve held off the release to make at least a couple more episodes. At the moment 8 20-30 minute episodes doesn’t feel like enough time to tell this major and interesting story they want to tell.
Episode count is not something Viv can change herself. Shortening the season to for example make the episodes longer is possible but not adding more episodes. But yeah, I agree that they try to put in more plot points than they can
@@twika4033 In general its very amateur in its writing. Its moving way to quickly, and isn't fleshing out the characters one bit. The only meaningful character development we've gotten was with angel and husk, nowhere else did i get the sense of ''wow these characters are interesting'', Alastors also there but it feels like theres just TOO much going on with him and their hinting at so many plots with him its difficult to gain a grasp of what his character is, they NEED to slow down the pace this is giving star and the forces of evil vibes and that show fucking sucked beyond season 1.
I quite like how alastor is handled. The whole point is for us NOT to grasp what his deal is. We don't need all the answers right away, especially not 4 episodes in.@@opportunity3278
I just want to put in my two cents here. As a retired sex worker, episode 4 made me absolutely ball my eyes out. Though it was a bit triggering, it was absolutely worth it to feel so seen by a medium that I never thought my story would be represented in. To see my story, my trauma, and my hope, represented by my life's passion of animation means more to me that any other show I've ever watched. I think it was done wonderfully and I've watched Angel's breakdown scene several times since last night
Feel free to not answer this, but something has been bugging me and I’m hoping you can help resolve it. It felt a little gross to me that Ep4 draws a parallel between Husk losing his position as an overlord and becoming indebted to Alastor, and Angel Dust becoming indebted to Valentino. As far as we can tell, Alastor does not regularly abuse or traumatize Husk. He makes him work in the Hotel, yes, but it’s really not a bad gig and Husk seems to be just mildly annoyed with the whole thing because it chafes him that he can’t say no. Angel Dust, obviously, is suffering much more severe and regular abuse. He also, again as far as we know, was never a powerful individual who (presumably) could have chosen to not gamble away his power. Yes, gambling is also an addiction, but as an overlord Husk at least had more options to deal with his addiction and not fall so far than Angel Dust did. So, when I saw this guy singing to Angel Dust about how basically he needs to accept that he’s a loser like Husk, all I’m thinking is “that’s easy for you to say, acceptance can largely solve your problem of feeling upset with your situation, but it doesn’t solve Angel Dust’s.” Did that dichotomy bother you at all, or am I reading too much into it?
@@Skyhigh91100 ik this question was asked to the original commenter but I have and opinion on it so I’m gonna say it. I’m a survivor of SA and relate a lot to Angel Dust. I agree that it’s easy for Husk to tell Angel to accept it and that won’t help Angels situation but I don’t think that’s what Husk is getting at. Angel needs solidarity. He needs someone he feels like he can trust. He needs someone he can relate to. I personally have friends like Husk. They haven’t gone through what I’ve gone through but to know that they’ve also suffered to ANY degree is comforting. Angel needs to feel like he’s not alone and Husk provides that. Husk is trying to cheer him up.
@@Skyhigh91100not OC but a survivor of domestic abuse. I don't have an issue with the comparison. One reason is, that him just seeking "annoyed" by alastor's treatment could be the result of him being used to it, and having accepted his fate. And his fate is still pretty bad. Like, any life he had before, he completely left behind. He's usually seen behind the bar which means he's working pretty much constantly. Sure, he's not enduring active abuse but he's still forced to work constantly, with no way out. I don't think it's right to compare which is worse, when both their fates are horrible things that no one would want to go through
@@Skyhigh91100I don't think the parallel was being drawn to equate their situations, it's just Husk trying to show that he's also in a tough situation that resembles Angel's in a lot of ways, and he uses that to actually try and comfort him and show him he's not alone. You can show parallels and characters relating without their experiences/trauma being necessarily the same in severity
Also being essentially a slave to ALASTOR is kinda terrifying, we dont know what kind of nightmarish things he regularly did before the hotel but of he’s had husk around for a while i could imagine what not being able to say no would do mentally to someone around him. He regularly tortures and terrorizes people for fun and the general reaction to seeing him is “find the fastest way to kill yourself before he gets to you”.
So far, Masquerade is the most controversial out of the four episodes currently out. Some say 'Poison' glamorizes SA and 'Loser' victim blames while others say 'Poison' does not glamorize SA and that 'Loser' is clearly a song about Husk telling Angel to open up and that he's not alone. I fall into the latter camp, but it is interesting how it's either one or the other with no in-between, and even people claiming to be SA victims fall into both of these camps.
The separation is ultimately people with emotional intelligence vs people who don't have a clue what's going on and are purely reacting emotionally to something that isn't wrong but brings up horrible memories
@@Eat_shit--die_mad Or, if you were more sensitive to SA victims, you'd realize that every one of them is an individual and can have different opinions and triggers. I've heard good points from both sides and it's not a black and white "this is good/bad representation" topic. It really depends what the viewer takes away from it and how it relates to them personally
@@Rainygirl3100Let's be honest, the people who say "Loser, baby" victim blames and "Poison" glamorises SA aren't the same people who went through or know someone who went through SA.
Out of context, the execution of it feels like an excited theater kid/dnd game master who has thought up of these characters and scenerios for years and just wants to get to the good parts they already came up with without the buildup.
Yeah I've been chewing through the episodes and i kinda meh'ed on some parts While others i really enjoyed But the reality is that it's not structured well, the first season already revealed so many things , almost like two seasons maybe almost 3 went by
It was. LOL Foreshadowing is still art though. Offensive.. And that you all want proof all the time. God was right. Just believe. LOL. Hilariously ironic. ☦
I think it's one of those problems with most modern shows now that weird feeling you could be canceled or those promised future seasons will disappear (Owl House Steven Universe Game Of Thrones etc) that gives everyone this feeling that they have to tell their story really fast it starting to affect the pacing so much in so many shows
@@angelfox8 Its about money, really. Our economy is not doing so well because of wars and WEF. So there is no point of making any series right now. Huh, God was right. We should have never taken the jabs. ☦ Verosika: How sad...
I’m my opinion episode 4 is the best, because it’s the only one with even a sliver of build up. Fans have been waiting for a confrontation of Valentino for a while now, and even throughout episode two it showed Angel getting angry texts from Val. I feel like Angel is the main character and everyone else is support. Which is fine if that’s what they’re going for, but I don’t think it is. Anyways, ‘Poison’ and ‘Loser Baby’ both go so hard
I watched a video about who would be the best protagonist in HH, (I can’t remember the person who made it, you could probably just search Hazbin Hotel protagonist) but in short it said that due to Angel not having a clear stance on whether redemption was possible and not knowing who the “Radio Demon” was while everyone else did (an opportunity to inform the audience) that Angel was would be the optimal choice for a protagonist. Obviously this was quite a while ago, and it probably isn’t what the show writers (mainly Viv) was going for, but the logic made sense to me. Also agree on the songs, those two are absolutely amazing!
I also love that the fact that Valentino’s control over Angel wasn’t solved in one episode. It rings very true and I think gives a lot of opportunities for a rich character arc that includes redemption through freedom. There’s definitely a risk Angel will steal the spotlight but I think I’m ok with that as long as Charlie still has a satisfying arc too.
I think it also feels like angel is more the protagonist than Charlie and they definitely weren’t intending that. For viv Charlie is the main character, but it doesn’t feels like it at the moment.
gone are the days where we could get more than 15 episodes in one season. I really hate how shows are getting smaller seasons like 8 episodes I don’t think is enough to tell all these characters story’s. It’s gunna feel a bit rushed when you don’t have the time to really focus on them.
One of my biggest gripes about the show so far is the way they immediately revealed the exorcists to be evil. I understand that the pilot is still canon aside from visual changes, but I much prefer the way the angels were presented in the pilot. They were genociding thousands of sinners, but who knows, maybe from their perspective they just thought they were doing the right thing and that the killing is warranted because it’s hell. Revealing that “heaven is just as bad as hell” in episode ONE creates a huge problem, because it immediately invalidates Charlie’s whole mission! Where are the sinners going after they get out of the horror that is hell? Right to another place that’s just as bad. It’s hard to get any impact out of Charlie working on redeeming the residents when we already know I her plan is going to fail.
See, I actually find that aspect to be intriguing. I don't think it was ever a question that Heaven is terrible, it's a bit too obvious to keep that as if it's a big reveal, y'know? So that begs the question, why _is_ Charlie doing this when she should know by now it's a pointless goal? I think part of it is that she has a rose-tinted view of Heaven and the world in general, but I think she knows deep down that she's being idealistic as a defense mechanism. She knows, logically, Heaven is never going to take sinners. So why keep doing this? I hope that's a question the show itself tackles, but I personally think it's because getting sinners to heaven wasn't _really_ the goal to begin with. What she wants is friends, community, people who she can actually relate to and confide in, because before this point the _only_ person she had was Vaggie. She desperately wants people to see the world the way she does, but as Husk points out when he's breaking down each character, she immediately reaches to frame it as her solving other people's problems, giving them something they want rather than be honest about what _she_ wants. She lives in a world where one's worth is only determined by how much they can be of use and/or profit to someone more powerful, she still internalized this despite her optimistic attitude, and that's why she thinks this is the only way to actually make someone from hell "good" like her, because she can be useful. She's gonna need to learn some difficult lessons, which we've already seen take shape in episode 4. I think this is even self-evident just from the title of her I Want song, "Happy Day in Hell". She hardly cares about heaven, she wants people to be happy _in Hell_
Yea it doesn’t make much sense to have a Desire to continue their plan because you just swapping one bad situation to another, nothing is left to the imagination and everything is just out there.
While there are certainly pacing and writing issues, I think it makes more sense when the show is viewed as a musical. The songs aren't just used for big emotional moments. They are for exposition and internal monologues, and for expressing a character's current emotion/perspective (even when not a dramatic peak).
That’s what I’ve been viewing it as, and based on Vivzie’s past, I think that’s what it’s been going for. It only makes sense considering there are 2 songs per episode.
Even taking that into account, I think the execution is a bit clunky. For a much much better example of a show that does this well, check out Centaurworld.
A LOT of people were yelling about how the show should have had a content warning for episode four, about "HOW COULD anyone SUPPORT Hazbin Hotel when it SHOWCASES the TRAUMA of SA in a GLORIFIED way?" Turns out, they were taking that ONE clip of Angel Dust completely out of context, and there WERE warnings (not surprised) and episode 4 made you sick to your stomach for Angel. And I've seen a LOT of SA survivors say they feel seen. I've seen some also say it was done in poor taste. But I have seen most everyone agree that it wasn't glorifying the horrendous act at all. It was rough and real and raw. And by the end, it really had me hoping Angel out of all of them, will be redeemed. Because out of everyone...he deserves a happy ending. He deserves peace.
I get it. BUT, follow up that sequence with Husk's song was terrible, Angel's resolution in episode 4 is having Husk singing him about "Stop whining dude, shit is everywhere". It just felt so off to me.
Bruh honest the way twitter was going about it made me think it was worse and hence made me wanna see what was going on but I’ll be honest compare ones in anime this was kind of tame the best example is beserk of graphic
@@ShinobiPXO oh sorry I mistyped, I meant that lily thought the crew was being racist against garnet because they showed her struggle and accept things, it was a dumb comment anyway
I think their intention for setting up this conflict with Vaggie was to show that Charlie has zero boundaries (which was even further highlighted when she tried to interfere with Angel's work situation), not really so much setting up any kind of arc for Vaggie. It was a bit clunky but that was my take on it. Like Charlie keeps pushing herself into other people's personal space and then it just ends up making them feel bad, or causing them even more problems.
I feel like the show suffers from homework. I don’t feel like I was fully introduced to these characters. I was just supposed to know things. The amount of times I felt like I missed important names and beats only to scrub through the episode and realize it just…wasn’t explained. There’s apparently a lot of social media background and lore which is pretty cool…but it should’ve been more of an easter egg than doing the heavy lifting for me getting invested in these characters. Or explain why these characters exist. Camilla was just weird for someone who doesn’t follow the lore on social media, so I was just asking myself why. I don’t want to do homework to understand a show, it should be something I want to when I’m invested; not something I have to do to get invested.
I loved the episode 4 The loser baby song resonates with me; it's a raw expression of two guys sharing their innermost feelings. It's comforting to find solace in their venting, realizing that, for once, you're not alone. even if you're at the bottom of life
Yeah I agree. I personally found it as someone who’s partner experienced similar as me, finding someone (not just a romantic partner, even if I ship Husk and Angel) feels very real. Like I find I am better about my situations when I have someone who, if not relate to my trauma, can have their own experience and sympathize and show comfort.
I will say I’m starting to love Nifty and the chaotic little character that she is, which is funny since I barely cared for her in the pilot, I love the characters, stories, and especially the songs, but the jokes need some work, I’d probably give it a solid 7.5/10 rn
@@johanstenfelt1206 Yeah, if we're supposed to take this cast seriously and care about them and feel sympathy for their rough situations in life and in hell, then Niffty has some some serious damage to work through judging by how she is, and I hope there's a damn compelling story behind that.
Now see, you’re saying that we don’t know enough about Vaggie to understand why she’s doing all this, but I think seeing her do all this tells us a lot about her. Her drill sergeant mentality, her disgust at the bdsm club, her idea to trauma bond in a war zone, and her desperate need to protect and help Charlie all suggest things about Vaggie that might make sense in a later episode when her past is fully exposed. If not getting all the details immediately frustrates you more than it intrigues you, well… I wouldn’t call it a problem with the writing, per se.
4 месяца назад
Depends though, if the pay off sucks, then it is the writings fault. Throwing a generic "Oh she was a soldier, got captured and tortured and lost a friend or lover" rush job aint going to work well. When dealing with heavy topics, rushing is never the best way to get into them, there is more to it than simply "Angel, sex slave, abuse, Val bad." that is a kiddy level of writing of serious issues
It’s honestly a little hard to care for these characters, unless you’re a big fan already and know a lot about them. Episode 3 had so many new characters just randomly singing about their feelings, while I hardly know nor care for them 🤷🏻♀️ For now, I’m just underwhelmed with this show.
Even big fans don't care about those characters cuz nobody even knew they existed before that ep we never saw them once or heard anything about them before that ep
@@EepyBoyoViv and the crew seems to be doing this on the belief that everyone that will watch it has seen her devianart page, her 10 yr old animations, the pilot, the podcasts, the patreon content etc. But 99.9% of viewers didnt, they only saw the pilot at most. She needs to treat the show as if its just been created, like no one except her has seen it. Instead of this.
Just wanna mention something I personally liked that you didn't mention: Alastor's silent interactions with Rosie. I dunno why, but it's just really cute to me the way they smile at each other in the meeting scene. Makes me hyped for episode 7.
when I was watching Carmine's and vaggie's song I couldn't help but think "Did Vivzzie bite off more then she could chew trying to make a musical series?"
Yes out of all her songs that duet was the one that felt like it didn't flow right it felt almost felt clashing at moments like they were trying to do something too complex and didn't quite work it out
I can't blame them for not wasting time with plotless episodes. Animated show nowadays are getting cut and canceled (especially shows with strong LGBT+ representation), so the writers don't have any time to waste. As you said in one of your previous videos: "The networks greenlite two seasons, then cut the first season in two and call them two seasons." or something like this.
Shows with LGBTQ+ representation aren’t being cancelled more frequently, it’s just that people hype up the shows with representation and then make a huge deal out of it when they get cancelled, while little is said about most of the shows without much representation. It’s just another disingenuous way of claiming victimhood and “oppression” when it just isn’t there.
Not surprising as I’m sad for Owl House, Warrior Nun, and a few other good shows that got cut for no reason unless these shows make money or can be used to just milk the cow dry
As someone who’s been groomed (and had situations involving SA during that time) I felt incredibly seen by Poison and almost all of Episode 4 that involved Angel Dust and Valentino’s relationship. The scene of Angel yelling at Charlie after being Physically Assaulted because you feel too scared to have the person you care about hurt is really really heartbreaking to me. Even if I do think Charlie was being a bit of a dumbass due to her overexcitment before that scene. It feels kinda, idk the point since she does apologize and defend Angel after she sees how bad Valentino hurts him; it still kinda had a tone problem tho. I’m currently not at the point where I can watch this episode without it being triggering, but that’s due to my experiences and had I been aware of how seriously it was going to take it, I would have stayed away. I think it’s still important to tell those stories and with some time (and therapy) I’ll probably be much better at handling my past experiences. Right now though, I’ll just listen to Loser Baby, over and over again.
I feel like Charlie was trying to help Angel but did make things worse. Angel was trying to protect her from Val which is why he yelled at her to which is sad.
what i don't like that i never see anybody point out, is how angel dust sexually harrasses the fuck out of all the staff ESPECIALLY husk, and its not treated as bad and when husk rather harshly rejects angel, its treated like husk is IN THE WRONG for snapping after angel dust hits on him 24/7 all day every day and doesn't take no for an answer. husk is forced to go make it up to him and drag his ass back home. if they make huskerdust canon i might actually fucking lose it as an SA survivor myself, it feels kinda gross how angel is nothing but hypersexual and also borderline an SAer himself with the way he oversteps boundaries over and over and over again. vivzie has an issue with having her characters not take no for an answer (present with stolas in stolitz too), and her laughing it off for funny haha jokes and not having any real reprocussions for it. angel dust is a realistic character, i like him, he's relatable. but i don't like how his behavior is constantly fucking excused. it feels gross to me. you can make a viewer empathize with a character without excusing everything they do.
I never once got the impression that the show was indicating that angel wasn't in the wrong for sexually abusing the staff. Vaggie even points it out at one point, very seriously. Someone can be a victim of horrible abuse AND do bad things to other people. We're meant to identify with Angel and want him to heal, but that doesn't mean everything he does is suddenly okay. I'm not sure what gave you that impression, and it almost certainly isn't intended. And in regard to Husk, Vaggie told him to go after Angel, but Vaggie wasn't there when Husk and Angel fought lol. Of course she's gonna tell him to go after Angel. That's totally in line with her character. That doesn't meant the show is proclaiming that Husk was in the wrong. TLDR: don't assume that because a character does/says something, that something is considered good/evil by the show. Sometimes characters we're meant to identify with do bad things, sometimes characters we're meant to root for do good things, and as long as it's in character, it's good writing.
@@JeeWillacurs Who did? Again, the one acting like that was Vaggie, who didn't actually see the fight. Vaggie made an assumption with limited information and blamed someone wrongly. And it was totally in character in the moment.
We need to see more of who vaggie was as, before she "latched" onto charlie. Like I remember so many theories like "she's one of the executioners" and in the recent eps I thought she had a strong look of the weapons overlord, who sings the respect song (the one who killed the angel) So I feel like we need more context on why she hates herself and then from that we can understand how she finds "escapism" from those problems through charlie's saviour complex. Like does she just love charlie? want to be redeemed??? did charlie save or help her in some way? Is she just a runaway that's ignoring her own problems by pushing herself into the forefront of charlies? Because I think it's a very promising plot line of how who she was before meeting charlie but it like you said feels like it's being done out of order.
Vaggie is a Moth Sinner Demon, look closely at the Wing design in her hair and she died ON EARTH in 2014, she's not and has never been a Exterminator and no dont give me the Holy Weapon nonsense, she just happens to have a Spear and weapons are scattered around PC.
I honestly think there should have been other writers involved. Vivzy does not have the skill to pull very sensitive concepts and characters like this. There needs to be other people here to reel the writtong in and make it consistent.
Yeah, I can't deny the show has some good stuff and insane potential. But man... the pacing is jarring, and that 3rd episode was just... not it. I absolutely loved that Velvette got some establishment, but the Vaggie stuff was out of pocket whiplash, and I thought Carmine's song wasn't even warranted at all. It made me dislike her character more, actually. The only good bits were Alastor and the Eggs and interacting with Zestial. The trust exercise was good but they didn't build on that at all. But dang did that last episode hit!!! My jaw dropped with how good it was. It stayed on one topic, focused on It, and executed it well. It gave me much needed hope for the future four episodes. But I'm worried about the pacing. Heavily.
Sounds like Hazbin Hotel is structured like a fanfic. The source material did all the hard work of characterizing and world building, so now the author can just cash in on things they think would be cool, flashy emotional moments, half baked intrigue, etc
@@ritaerror7829 That's the thing, lol. If these are characters that Vivzie has been working with for a long time, it makes sense where the dissonance is coming from. There is a chance that she has become disconnected from just how little normal people know/care about these characters, compared to herself.
@@toastmastergeneral3391 But it's a Prime show now, isn't it? Helluva Boss might have her in charge and no one to question it, but shouldn't they dunno... got any outsider to the team to control the quality or whatever of the show they will be airing? Also, someone described Viv defending of Millie, as a proud mother of a child. It doesn't matter that character isn't good on itself, mommy is proud of how cool she is for not having any trauma so why viewer doesn't feel the same? XD
@@ritaerror7829 I don't quite understand how it works, but there is a chance that Prime gave her quite a bit of creative control, considering it was an internet thing that became popular. It's not like they are that good at quality control anyway. And the mother analogy makes sense. That's why I used the fan-fiction comparison. Fans of works usually don't make good writers of those things, because they don't want anything bad to happen to the characters, or they want them to be super strong, or xyz. They prioritize the stuff that they like, and not all the more boring stuff that makes writing actually good. It's like if a musical was only solos for songs, or if they are stuffed with high emotional moments, without much development. Instant gratification is great in a toy box, but it doesn't make for good tv.
I just had weird idea and realization, these 4 episodes feel like they would be better fitting in a season 2, after Charlie has started doing work on the Hazbin hotel and they have established a norm, then comes season 2 and she gets to talk with the angles and then they tell her they her yearly timeframe has just been moved up to 6 weeks, like it feel like a new problem that was supposed to happen after they solved the previous one
And Charlie too. With Angel they need good pacing as they can't afford to rush anything as they are dealing with the most sensitive topics. If they did rush it the fans will never forgive them and it may traumatize SA victims instead of helping them.
I noticed something that hazbin did that others shows dont. Usually shows dont follow up from their pilot, the pilot exists as a seperate, but here it continues from the pilot which imo is horrible in any type of media ESPECIALLY if its an online series becoming a tv series, this means that people that dont know bout the pilot end up watching this n just feel whiplashed by random characters that act like we know them already. Pilots are there to pitch an idea and a concept, then its taken out back, rearranged n turned into an episode.
Even if you didn't watch the pilot there's a lot of context clues, which in my opinion, allows you to piece together what's happening, where every character stands and so on
Thank you! I've had the same feelings: Yes! The fandom knows the shit! But now you're not doing it for the same audience -you "restart" your story (more or less) on an official platform. It'd be fine if they at least re-edited & uploaded the pilot. But...this?
I actually kinda disagree with what you said about revealing the “Who killed the Angel mystery” too soon because I never really saw it as a mystery to begin with, and I don’t think they were hyping it up to be a mystery at all. I just think it’s Chekhov’s gun that’s used to introduce Camilla as a character and raise the stakes with the angels.
I think that this is a constant problem with Vivienne Medrano's writings, she has some concept of problems that the characters face, and these play actually pretty good in a format like a music video, in which you see fractions of the struggle in a dramatic light, without getting an actual reveal of the conflict. But as it has happened also with Helluva Boss, Vivienne Medrano has shown that she isn't that good at character development. It's a 1 or 0 kind of development, in which we either get absolutely no development, with the status quo staying practically untouched for a whole bunch of episodes, or we get one episode in which the development gets rushed, without the foundation to make that development feel earned. In Helluva Boss I can point out to something like the development of Fizzarolli, in which for a bunch of episodes he was just kind of like a background character, in which it was alluded to some mayor tension between him and Blitz, without any kind of reveal or development, until the episode in which everything gets revealed, explored and resolved, in an extremely rushed way. I think her ideas are good, but she will require better writers to actually make those ideas pop and feel like they have weight.
I will say this about episode 3. One of the most interesting things was following Allastors perspective and seeing him use his wits to uncover the mystery was well done. We saw how cunning he was taking advantage of having an egg boy around to spy on the most suspicious overlords. We saw how he handles himself around the other overlords and seeing Carmilla being not interested in his whole mystery was great. We saw the egg boys visibly test his patience and him actually show a panic face when Zestial caught him with them. As for episode 4 F twitter they were wrong I felt everything that was shown was necessary and was in no way fetishize the scene nor was it poorly handled I can see why Viv got angry about people complaining over an out of context 17 second clip that was leaked. The animation of that episode was the best and you can tell Viv and her team put their heart and souls into that episode and depicting the horror of abuse. Side note I also loved when Charlie almost lost her cool showing limits to her patience when she was about to actually murder Valentino. In the future when angel finally does give her permission to do so I expect her to go full demon princess on him and beat the un life out of him.
Personally i dont like the fact they setup a character arc and fixs it at the end of the episode, I'd think it be better to let it simmer for a bit and solve it the next episode or 2
Sometimes if feels like they don't know if they are going to have an ep 2, it's like they are on Steven universe last season mindset where everything needs to be fixed as fast as possible
@@airplanes_aren.t_real That’s dumb since it was announced they’re getting 8 episodes. I get what you’re saying if you was talking about season but not episodes
To be fair, they haven't fixed anything with Angel or Vaggie or even Charlie. If you really look at things, nothing has changed. Vaggie still doesn't trust anyone but Charlie. She can't relax about anything and has no connection to the people in the hotel. Charlie is still a doormat who can't properly interact with the world and people around her because she's delusional. Angel Dust is still owned, still abused, by Val. With no end in sight. He still puts up a fake smile for others, I suppose now except Husk.
@airplanes_aren.t_real this is 100% the vibe I got. Everything has to he solved by the end of the episode and we aren't given any time to process anything
Episode 4 is my favorite. I personally think they want the build up to be about this whole what happened 7 years ago thing to be this big mystery and not anything else. Which is a shame cause who killed an angel is a mystery to have.
Okie dokie... poison is THE SONG that threw me into an actual 988 emergency. I have a history with S.Abuse and I relate far too much with angel to not talk about it. Angel being afraid of Val as far back as episode 2 (or addict if you wanna go there) was enough foreshadowing for me to believe the act that angel was putting on. I've personally gotten intoxicated enough to discuss my past but it always boils down to a joke or a shock-factor moment. I've been both angel and husk, the victim of abuse who sees the only way out as being self destruction and the jaded old fart who wishes for others to quit bitching about it. I won't say anything about Charlie or her decisions because, well, my entire thought process up to that point was "CHARLIE NO!" But there's not much else to say. She didn't see a situation with the nuance and tact it deserved and the reality of angel telling her to leave was gripping.
I know they’re juggling lots of plots and characters but I really wish Angel’s slow healing process was more of a focus in the series going forward. It’d be frustrating if it happened off screen and ‘now everything’s ok’ That’s not to say there’s no room for anyone else but despite there being some flaws, he’s a very meaningful character to me and it’s tough but helpful to watch his story play out and see others responses
But what would be the payoff? The reveal that Vaggie's the daughter of just some woman in hell (yes, she's powerful, but she's really just someone to the audience) would be a non-reveal. Plus, if her thing is 'I'm protecting my daughters', it would be weird to have the caveat 'I'm protecting my daughters, except that other one who lives on her own'.
I think the real issue is that there’s been given so much info outside of the show that they genuinely forgot that not everyone follows all the comics, livestreams, etc. Like for example, I had no idea who Carmilla is.
I don't know if this is related but during the song "Poison" when Angel sang "I'm drowning in poison" notice how pink liquid drops from his mouth? We all know that it is poison from Val, but during that scene Vox also had lines dripping from his mouth, the same colour as both Angel's and Val's, does that mean Vox is also being manipulated by Val? or they just made out? 😅
I've been wondering if anyone else caught that. But thanks to other youtubers following Viv's twitter and insta for the Hazbin characters before their accounts were taken down, I know Viv originally showed Val was an abusive partner to Vox as well.
I feel like Angel's situation is really similar to Fizzy's arc in Hellavaboss. The difference is that Angel is a soul and Fizz is an imp. Are these contracts really unbreakable? How is Charlotte supposed to redeem souls if they really are trapped? Valentino's hold on Angel seems more like a spell than an ironclad hold. Free will here is not really explained, so I'm interested to see how this develops.
They're way different. Fizz idolized Mammon and eventually got to work with him. Between worshipping the guy and having low self esteem, he allowed himself to basically develop light Stockholm syndrome before Blitzø and Oz helped him work up the nerve to quit. Angel is a sinner that OD'd when he died and he sold his soul to Valentino. He literally has no free will and just drowns himself in hyper sexuality, drugs, and other self destructive behaviors, both to "ruin" himself and turn Val off but I bet he's also punishing himself and medicating the pain. So yeah, it's literally "disgruntled employee" vs "sex slave"
I feel like it’s supposed to do that though. It’s sickening. It’s supposed to show you why there relationship is so bad. It’s not even a relationship, it’s about power.
its crazy how some people ship them together even after this, Im actually not lying and I went to some videos and people actually liked them together. Absolute Idiots
7:03 They actually point this out in the show through the episode’s song, Velvette’s line is “And why are you avoiding war? That’s what the guns you sell are for.” And it’s like, why tell on yourself for inconsistent character writing?
Why? To make it seem like you know what you're doing lol. It's the same with Helluva Boss. It was only after the entire fandom kept pointing out how Asmodeus and Fizz's whole stick in the first season was contradictory that the writers made sure to have other characters call their hypocrisy out multiple times in the second season. "Hey, we hear you! They sure were hypocrits, huh! See, even the characters think so! This was all planned, obviously!"
That line is actually foreshadowing to the fact that more is happening than we can see, and sets up the reveal that Carmella is worried because the blood of the slain angel is on her hands.
@@connorjohnson8590 But it’s foreshadowing something that genuinely doesn’t make sense. Why would an arms dealer care about the blood on her hands? She’s already willingly contributed to god knows how many deaths, why suddenly care a war could break out? If they had made it just about her kids it would’ve made sense, but why are we supposed to believe she cares about everyone else and preventing casualties?
I have a working theory that the reason we got immediate confirmation of there being a Season 2 is because two seasons is all we're gonna get. Something happened during production that made Amazon or A24 say they're done with the show but as a nice gesture they gave them two seasons to tell their story so what was originally planned to be 3-4 seasons is now being condensed into 2 seasons which is why we're getting so much so soon and the episodes are moving at breakneck pace.
Well can you blame them? Because they've been dealing with Viv's childish attitude throughout the production. They were already having problems with her.
@@CipherRage-tp5qlI hate people like you. She's only childish because she respond to stupid comments like this. Like the whole drama between the two vas of Angel Dust because Xitter just loves drama. If Viv gave radio silence like Nate Stevenson did (good call) when the series dropped you'd still find a way to create drama outta nowhere. I just hope it wouldn't cost the show more needed episodes because Viv is 'childish' or whatece drama addicts are calling her now.
This actually makes way too much sense. Didn't Vivziepop say the delay that fans thought was caused by the strike was actually due to "distributor issues" or something along those lines? I'm thinking we got an entire rewrite.
These characters still feel like Vivziepop’s ocs, not Vivienne Medrano’s shows’s characters. It’s like you took a regular ol Instagram oc artist like me and gave them their dream show. Which is awesome, but you still need writing skills to be in charge of a show.
i think you've literally nailed it with this, it seriously does seem like a reel you'd come across with a small creator who's "totally writing a book like trust me guys it's totally being worked on". If I know anything about how to write it's that having yes-men beta readers will not help you. The mentality of "you don't have to listen to criticism to be a good artist" is all well and good... if you're not poised to make your own amazon show with your name stamped right smack bang on the middle of the title card. I swear, handing the script to someone who cared enough to tear it to shreds would have MADE this show and hey, maybe that did happen and vivsiepop simply didn't listen. I think there's a great lesson to be learned here about actually letting your work be beaten down by peers and those who want to help you before you end up like Vivienne Medrano who has it happening to her now ten-fold.
This is why you leave the writing to a actual professional writer and not have an artist try to do the writing too. Viv has great ideas and designs if she gave those thoughts to a writer who knows how to tell a damn story it could be so much better.
But... They are OCs. Literally all fictional characters are someone's OCs. I get you mean to say something about "fanfiction writing" or whatever, there is a vibe you get with a story feels like a fanwork vs. a professional project, not so much in quality (bc some fanfics _are_ better written than a lot of professional stuff, lbr), but a difference in style and common themes/tropes/cliches/etc., but those lines are being blurred now. I think that was always inevitable, and it's not a bad thing. Fanfiction and fan works are art, they're unavoidably part of a lot of people's cultural consciousness, of course artists are carrying that experience with them into their professional projects, that's how art has and will always evolve. We all may have to get comfortable seeing media that resembles this nebulous idea of "fanfiction tropes" more often, because that's where a lot of today's new talent got started! As for Viv herself, I don't know enough about her personal style to be a judge there, I just know from what I've seen so far that while it is a little rushed and rough around the edges, it's a good start. A _lot_ of professional shows have learning curves like this, how many times have you heard the old "oh it gets good after the first season" line? This show isn't uniquely bad in that regard, I don't think it's even bad at all. For what it is, I really like what it's going for and I'm interested in seeing how it pans out.
My theory on why things feel rushed and focused on too many different things is because this is just in case Hazbin gets cancelled after season 2 if they’d ever get one. Because you all know how studios have been cancelling everything under the sun lately that doesn’t have immediate record breaking ratings
4 месяца назад
Then self contain episodes, or better yet dont sell out to corps and do it the way you want. Maybe instead of splitting her workload, she should of just done Hazbin and got fans to support that instead of making Helluva Boss. Some simple rules of life: 1: Never put more weight on your shoulders than you can carry and 2: Selling out means you lose control of your own work, as now you have a boss who dictates what, how and when you need to get shit done.
I feel the same... It almost feels like they are blazing through topics and alternate ideas. Im nervous as well, im afraid the writers are just going over the top with so many ideas and cramming them into each episode that by the end thiers gonna be so many loose ends and plot holes that it will get to crazy to follow
The reason it feels rushed is because it will only have 8 episodes, so you can't blame them for that. I personally love that redemption begins with giving them a safe place where they can be themselves without having to focus on survival and feeling loved as people and not for what they offer, since that allows them to focus on themselves and heal from their emotional wounds. and start seeking to improve themselves because they deserve it, since the second step to redemption is to forgive yourself for your mistakes in my opinion.
That’s true the only episode where I didn’t like that much was episode 3, I like Vaggie but I just don’t like how rushed her writing is. I hope it gets better in the later episodes.
If they're so pressed for time, why waste it by stretching themselves thin by introducing several ideas and concepts all at once? Someone else in the comment section speculated that Spindle Horse was worried about HH getting cancelled. Now, if that's true, much empathy --- I wouldn't envy anyone in this position. However, we know nothing about Spindlehorse's contract with A24 and Amazon, so we currently only have our individual perspectives. From mine, it seems Vivzie is, once again, trying to juggle too many ideas, without focusing and expanding upon one first. A situation similar to Helluva Boss, unfortunately. That being said, I'd be remiss not to consider the next four episodes, which could bring some focus to this fustercluck of a plot. And, to be fair, I've only watched the first two episodes. The next two could change my mind slightly, but I digress. I'll keep an open mind.
You can absolutely blame them for not taking advantage of their time. Time is a resource and sometimes you need to leave things on the cutting room floor to make it work.
@@truecaliber1995 I think Viv has spent so long developing these characters that she wants to still keep her overarching story (Demons being able to kill Angels) while showing off her character's stories and growth. It is definitely too much for 25 minutes episodes but some people like to eat the cake they spent time baking.
"Hazbin feels like a side hustle in it's own show" yes. This is the core problem I'm seeing right now. There's quite literally no reason to care about getting the sinners to heaven if it's tainted anyway. The core conflict is Not, for example, getting Angel out of his bad situation and to heaven, or any other characters for that matter. It's becoming a show about power struggle between heaven, hell and between the overlords...and I'm digging that conflict a LOT but it feels like there's no mesh at all. Why should the audience care about Charlie and Vaggie's potentially pointless goals...? There is so much to enjoy here and I love this show but it really feels like an unedited first draft, and for all the time this has been in the works,thats pretty unacceptable.
The truth is Hazbin is feeling like it’s giving all the backstory and character development to the male characters because vivzie doesn’t know how to write good compelling female characters. I mean Vaggie just feels like Millie already by having very little character development. It’s disappointing because viv said this show is supposed to be about the girls but honestly it’s been feeling like it’s about Angeldust and Al’s stories more than anything.
Yeah I think it could have worked better if they Redeem the Sinners and allow them to be reborn on Earth again, basically cycling Souls back into Earth for new Humans - while also solving the Hellissue. Or something like that.
The handled Angel perfectly. There’s no prepping you for something like that. I’m a survivor of r*pe and that’s just how it happens, both when you step out of your dissociative state and when people find out be it through you or by chance. NOTHING preps you for it, it’s sudden, cold, painful AF, CONFUSING, and it marks you for life… They did a good job with that.
One simple correction I could possibly see is have Vaggie be one Carmilla's daughters and have Vaggie be the person who killed the angel. Not only would it connect another overlord to the main cast, but also give Carmilla a reason to still be defensive on who killed the angel. She is still trying to be a good mother for her family.
Really? Helluva took its sweet time to finally reveal the beef between Fizz and Blitz. Not to mention the buildup between Stolas and Blitz FINALLY talking....
I honestly liked episode 3. However, my biggest problem that I've never seen anyone talk about is Vaggie's new VA. Idk, maybe it's a me thing, but Vaggie always sounds kinda off tune. Not even that, but a lot of lines seem to lack emotion (especially during singing) like it gives me serious "person reads their lines " vibe Edit:Ok, after further viewing I kinda want to take back this statement (especially about the singing part). While I still think that Vaggie sounds rough in the first 2 episodes it becomes alot better later on. As for the song part, I think what actually bothered me was not Vaggie's VA on it's own, but when her singing together with Carmilla's VA. On their own they sounded perfect but together for some reason they just did not feel quite right to me.
@@lilac3266 I don't have too many problems when she speaks, but personally it's that in Happy day in hell her voice seemed strange to me, and in the other song where she sings with the overload I have the impression that her voice is too high
My theory is that Alastor's gonna hang onto the dead angel secret until the PERFECT time to spill it and cause the most damage. He's a chaotic creature that seems to be willing to do just about anything for entertainment. Bringing heaven's vengeful exorcists down upon hell wouldn't really hurt him personally in any way, and he might even get the chance to fight some angels to boot. What would possibly be more fun than that? Though I don't think he'd ditch the hotel for the sake of this plan and he'd probably defend it if the exorcists come knocking.
I noticed that most people either haven't paid much attention to what zestial said in episode 3, or just forgot. He said that there was rumors going around that Alastor fell into "holy arms". That has to mean that he is in a deal with someone in heaven.
I actually like the hotel conflict for ep 3. The reason Vaggie feels like it was her fault is because she was overseeing the day. It didn’t matter if it was her ideas or someone else’s, she felt like she let it go wrong
It’s not a surprise to me that the two best episodes so far are the two with a singular plot line. They somewhat have the time to breathe more and flush out the concepts they’re going for more. Whereas the episodes with A and B plots feel like they’re just rushing through things to get them done because they don’t have enough time Edit: I’m also starting to worry Vaggie may be getting the Millie treatment, where she doesn’t get much of a character written for her and is largely treated as Charlie’s ‘partner in crime’ like Millie typically is with Moxxie
That’s the vibe I’m getting too tbh. Which is heavily disappointing because Viv said this story was supposed to heavily focus on the girls instead of the boys like helluva boss. So far it’s felt like the Angeldust & Al show. I mean even Charlie’s goal isn’t gone enough into depth. Like why should the audience care about people getting a second chance when they don’t give us any reasons. How are you supposed to empathize with serial killers and criminals when you won’t even show us anything worthy of these people to be redeemed. It’s make that whole goal seem pointless.
Helluva feels like it handles things way better. Season 1 is almost entirely episodic, mostly just letting characters play off of each other with some incredibly small arcs before ending (not counting Queen Bee) on some back to back emotional breakthroughs that felt well set up in the first half. Season 2 maybe struggles a little more, as Blitzø / Fizz’s falling out is settled in one episode, but they still made it fairly believable given the circumstances of what took place. The largest scale threat so far has mostly just been some assassination attempts rooted in a lover’s quarrel, and a capturing from a low status government agency. Nobody outside of the central cast is under threat, and it drip-fed new characters pretty effectively. To the point where we didn’t get an episode focusing on a major character outside of IMP or the Goitas until Fizz’s arc. Hazbin Hotel on the other hand is tasked with stakes involving the fate of the entirety of hell, has a much larger main group (the Hotel has almost double the cast members of IMP), had an episode focused on a just-introduced character with seemingly nothing to do with the central cast outside of some vague connection to Alastor, and doesn’t have nearly as tight a network of character relationships. The character setup of these two shows is barely comparable.
As a SA survivor angle situation hits to close to home only difference was my abuser was my mom and dad I still remember the words and how they would look at me like a piece of meat it made it hard for me to have intercourse because my body starts shaking and I can’t stop crying
"The story will choose mere instant gratification over a longer buildup with a bigger payoff" this is the most glaring problem I had watching the series and I have been struggling to put it into words!! Thank you! You're also totally on point with the scenes either being there too early or only working in isolation instead of within the narrative flow of the episodes. Literally everything you have been thinking but have been struggling to articulate you put into words so eloquently.
I was kinda lost in episode 3 when the song with the new characters came on. I don't have anything against the characters or the singers, but I had trouble keeping along because we were literally JUST introduced to the characters and I have no connection with them as they sing.
4 месяца назад
And yet people cannot understand why we cannot just latch onto some character we know nothing about in under 30 seconds. Why do I care if this lady has kids? Who the hell is she other than some name and mention in one of Vivz tweets? Not all of us are social media zombies obsessed with everything.
It feels like this season was written *with* the context of fanfiction in all forms. The litany of animatics and music videos, the stories and fanart... It's not just the pilot we're expected to know, it feels like Season 2 because "Season 1" was the nearly-decade long wait the fandom took to get here. So (possibly justifiably,) the crew feel pressured to deliver the new plot and concepts *now* before anything else, under fear that the fanbase will just yawn and go "Well, we saw this coming a mile away."
I totally agree. I recently finished ALL of adventure time. Every single episode produced to this present. The Finn and Jake in the dead world ending made me sob. And the reason for that is because I spent so much time with them. I knew what they were to each other, brothers in such a pure way. I knew all the shit they went through together. All the laughs they shared. That ending turned me into a blubbering mess but because the show earned it. I’m not saying I need to spend 100 episodes with the Hazbin cast, but you can’t start a series with big emotional bouts. You need to get there, little by little. I’m watching these scenes in Hazbin like this: 😐
Same, there's gotta be build-up if you want us to empathise with the characters. Helluva Boss will, too, randomly throw in an emotional scene every now and then and I'm glad they're capable of writing them, but without build-up it pretty much doesn't land for me
The cracks in the writing always shows with the team unfortunately. At this point, I think the fans only watch for the art and respect of the hustle and execution more than anything else. Me being one of them.
@@lokkomotive8153 I really hope I can still enjoy Hazbin, I've been waiting 3 years and grew up with the Pilot and Helluva Boss so I hope it turns out good.
It’s crazy to me how Vizzies most consistent defenders will explain certain character and writing choices as being valid because “it’s hell” but then when the show actually depicts something distasteful or taboo there’s suddenly a moralistic panic as if these are real people.
