Help support the gyrocopter channel: paypal.me/gyrocopterclub?loca... The Gyrocopter flying club film about what makes an effective take off and common errors. Help support the gyrocopter channel: paypal.me/gyrocopterclub?loca...
Great informative video, I’m no pilot but made perfect sense to me, always scared me going for a ride in one of these or any other small aircraft without the pilot having full flying skills
Well done. Having learnt in the gyro glider I can highly recommend it particularly as it teaches good technique. It seems to me a lot of people are too rushed to throw in full power. Give it time if you are building your rotor speed as you build rpm your nose will lift long before full power balance and feed in power until it lifts off. The problem with people who just prerotate then Hall in full power is you need very honed instincts and you won't necessarily get off in less airstrip. I regular ly used to take of in less airstrip than guys with pre-rotators,. Bigger rotor s and more powerful engines. Simply because I didn't suck up airstrip at higher speeds than my rotor had caught up with. We hand winders always wound you on the taxiway. By the time you've turned into wind between the prop wash and the slow taxi speed you blades are ready for a slow and steady acceleration 10-12mph then only at this stage the a little more power and it's back on the tail wheel this accelletes the rotor without danger of lifting off,. Then add power gradually as you balance and you're off in no time. I'd regularly use 1/2 the strip bloke with 28 ft blades and hydrolic pre-rotators and lighter Rotax machines. You do not have to gun it. Good review of basic technique.
I had started to wonder whether what you suggest here may be a good idea as I suffer with all the problems you describe here on takeoff. Great video, thanks.
Thank you for the kind comments. Of course you will suffer with the problems because the alternative "wheel balance" type technique is commonly taught and can not fail to lead you down a path of issues because it is aerodynamically inefficient and flawed. Why is the "wheel balance" technique taught? you might rightly ask. In part it is a legacy of a technique that would have been used on single seaters - and because instructors over the decades have at some point been either taught as instructors or examined by those who are rooted in the past. The second reason is that it suits manufacturers to promote a take off that gets you unstuck sooner even if you can not climb away at that point because it suggests the gyroplane is a short take off machine - which in many ways it isn't. I read a comment from one US based instructor who just wanted to follow the technique used in the POH which is in a way understandable but it fails to understand how these instructions are written. The manufacturer is not a flight instruction specialist and they will do nothing more than give written guidance that is simple and easy to convey and on the basis the "old" technique is popular they just repeat the old mistake. If you watch the "take off techniques compared" film then you will see a faithful back to back test. I suggest you go back to your local gyro instructor, show him the film and spend an hour trying the two techniques and I 100% guarantee you will find the same results I do. The key is watching a positive rate of increase beyond (say) 220rrpm having pre-rotated to 200rrpm with the stick fully back before moving the stick forward crca a fist and a half (test and find the happy point) hold that point and once you see the RRPM up at around 270-290 (talking MTO aircraft) then you can move stick forward slightly more and wait for it to fly off the ground. You have gone too far forward with the stick if it "wheelbarrows" to mean you have the main gear unstick before the nose wheel. Any issues email me or questions.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 "the main gear unstick " Does that mean that the two wheels at the back no longer touch the ground but the nose wheel still does? I ask because my English is not perfect yet. Anyway how about the throttle? Is it 100% from the beginning after releasing the brake?
Divad Jens hey. Ok so when the main wheels unstick - as you say the main wheels are now airborne (but so is the front wheel as that unsticks before) so now the entire aircraft is airborne. I only mentioned main wheels in this because as I say the nose wheel will be in the air sooner. Throttle wise no the throttle goes to 100% once you are rolling and seeing rotor RPMs increase. If you are experienced and need very good performance then you can go to 100% immediately but be aware that now there is much less time to capture any issues. I suggest throttle after pre- rotation is enough to get the gyro moving to a fast jog. Then progressive adding power over 4-5seconds to 100% works best.
I had an interesting conversation with Auto-Gyro Gmbh today. The conversation was around their new rotor system 3, however they have figured with this system what we have known all a long. You heard it here first. The first thing is that the rotor head has two rotor brake blocks - one front, one rear. However the front brake block is also the forward rotor head stop. So this means that the initial pre-rotation is done with the stick held slightly rearwards so that the front brake block isn't engaged with the ring gear - adding friction and limiting the efficiency of the pre-rotation. Then once RRPM has been built the stick isn't brought fully back but only 2/3rd of the way rearwards - why? because fully back is too draggy (funny that, we have know about that here for a long time!) and moving the stick slightly forward gives a "cleaner" / flatter take off without the clumsy nodding and over controlling that can come from keeping the stick fully back and attempting to bring the aircraft into a wheel balance...
Interesting video Phil - but the clip of me taking off in KENG which you are using as an example of how well your technique works was actually flown using the "standard" (stick full back) technique ......
Hi - the technique I'm advocating also starts with "stick full back". The point I'm making with the remainder of my description gives a process that presents the aircraft at a more favourable attitude, sets less traps for students to fall into and requires less mental capacity. I used that clip of your aircraft because it shows the attitude I'm suggesting is favourable - that you achieved that by accident/experience or some other process is kind of irrelevant. What is key is that we agree that the way the aircraft is flown off the ground is the better technique and if you follow my process that is repeatable. Very often we may forget that students are just that and just because a multi thousand hour pilot can achieve a stick position quickly and readily isn't representative of the student with
Wallys autogyros were employed in the Britsh Army. Does anybody remember when and where they were employed and what was the outcome of such evaluation ? Thanks
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 well I guess I used the wrong word. I watch many videos here on RU-vid but on yours it is difficult to hear. I can hear It but it's not very loud.
I was just teasing. Yes you are quite right the sound quality is varied poor to worse i think for a few i was trying to be quiet for my little daughter's sake. Anyway all noted and the new one in April ill make efforts to improve Thanks Phil
Hi please take a look at the films I’ve made on the subject, but essentially it is merely a phase during the take off roll that sets the pitch attitude- at this point you are on the main wheels only with the nose wheel around 3-4 inches in the air - if done correctly. The issue is that that is seldom the case and often the nose wheel is almost 12inches + in the air and that becomes a problem.
Wallys autogyros were employed un the Britsh Army. Does anybody remember when and where they were evaluated and what was the outcome of such evaluación?
Hi - the British Army Air Corps took 3 WA116 aircraft for evaluation from 1962-63. These were Beagle-Wallis aircraft but the Army Air Corp finally took the Bell 47 and I'm sure no doubt because of the warm cabin! i0.wp.com/generalaviationnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/IMG_3637.jpg
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148Thank you very much for your information. I'm a gyroplane enthusiast! I have flown Hughes 500, Bell UH-1H and Bell 212, but have always been drawn to gyros (the Jensen was the first one I noticed).
Hey - sounds like you have done some exciting flying with those aircraft on the CV! I used to fly a Hughes 369D, nice aircraft and very fast for a heli.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 I have also flown the Hughes 369 HM! Its glide flight distance was greater than that of the H500 series. We used to practice actual autorotations .The H500 was heavier and less comfortable in 360-degree turns. Its descent speed is higher than that of the lighter H369 models.
Hello John - I'm not sure what time the phrase was used in the film - give me a time ref and I'll clarify the exact point but typically if I've mentioned the word "rotation" its just my own term for the movement of the aircraft as the front wheel lifts - I don't like the term "wheel balance" because it suggests that this is something to achieve in its own right or hold for an undetermined length of time.
If you mean unloading the rotor (going negative G) yes that's universally fatal. For helicopters and powered hang gliders usually too. Its easy to avoid though. Don't fly very fast and learn to fly properly.
Such tin spindly blades and not powered and so much lift, but if something goes wrong it's suddenly just a spindly plank and loses lift as quick as it gains it.
I agree with rickdc3, this is bad advice, Balancing on the mains before take-off and balancing nose pitch as you take-off is the same thing. Why over-focus on pushing the stick forward when this is how you balance. Higher angles of attack are caused by over balancing on take-off and new pilots should never be told they are over-focused on balance. There is only one element to be focused on, if you drag your tail down the runway then you will lift off nose high, if you balance between the nose and tail wheel you will lift off properly and if you keep the stick forward you end up like rickdc3's dad. This vid is well-meaning but dangerous.
Hi - Firstly RickDC3's got involved because he was trying to rationalise his fathers fatal accident - when the real point behind that accident was he had very little time in the aircraft, didn't want to take more and simply lost control of his aircraft which from the video of it was about 3-400ft in the air. Literally zero to do with his take off technique. If you watch the film, listen to the words there is nothing dangerous in the advice. The facts of what happens with these aircraft in the take off phase is a reality that this video was aimed at making better.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Dangerous was the wrong word my apologies, your videos are usually spot on and students would do well to listen to your advise, I was picking on a single aspect that may cause confusion which was, "don't over focus on wheel balance" as if excessive nose pitch was caused from something else.🤐RickDC3 commented that not fully focusing on wheel balance is bad advise and I tried to explain why I agreed.
@@homergee3381 Hi - no all is cool and of course there is nuance / degrees of in most of flight training. The point I guess I was making with the general overview of the film is that the original techniques in gyroplane training came from aircraft with no pre-rotators and no rotor tacho. Of course in that context wheel balancing is the way to keep safe [or rather keep from bending the aircraft] today we have tools that we can use to make the process "easier". The "focus" element of my comment is that in my experience as an instructor that piece [the "achieve a wheel balance" bit] and that can become the destination - forgetting that they actually want to take off. Either consuming runway while we wheelie down the runway, nose high and over pitched. For me it is why they loose directional control and/or take off behind the drag curve.
One of the benefits of the gyroglider is it could take off will full back stick and the rope stopped the rotors impacting the ground. In fact that's how we soloed people on the glider (initially). Full back stick and the pilot only has to worry about staying behind the car. This reduced cognitive load but also meant the driver controlled the height. We'd then progress through holding a height (requiring you to come forward on the stick) and then moving to fully balanced take offs and landings. Of course prior the instructor was teaching correct balance and mine at least yelling at me if I was a fraction too high on the nose. What this meant though was the glider trained student was very aware of what gyro feels like behind the power curve, they intimately knew the attitude and sluggishness of the stick. Also the glider on a km long strip is doing a take off an landing every single minute so they typically have heaps of practice. What his technique corrects for is the typical modern powered take off where the guy drags the machine off after pre-rotating until 220+rpm then is caught either chasing the takeoff to avoid letting the blades decay sufficient to risk over control when suddenly the nose rears and yaws and suddenly the new bloke is struggling with pitch, compensating for one wheel lifting with the massive torque and juggling all these things over a few seconds before you are off. Note he isn't suggesting holding the nose down just not holding in full back stick as you approach takeoff. The traditional hand winding technique can take just as little or less airstrip because you aren't rapidly accelerating to flying speed and suddenly meeting it. This is my go to video an old mate of mine taking off in calm conditions after handing winding. He did this all the time and this is actually the taxiiway. Notice how casual all the phases are and how little room is used to get off. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-36ogAzGGyG4.html Notice how slowly he progresses at first, this is because angle of attack on the retreating blade is the biggest factor in getting the blades to speed quickly. If you introduce too much speed it will exceed so the quickest way to get the rotors to speed is only introduce what the blades can handle. It feels to me modern technique tries to avoid blade flap at the expense of higher rates of getting off behind the power curve at rotation. Just my opinion.
This is bad advice. I could not convince my dad to properly raise the nose and balance on the mains. Doing it correctly requires skill and feel. He preferred to keep the nose wheel on the ground until around 60mph, and then lift like an airplane. His technique killed him yesterday. Rotorflap on takeoff probably caused a rudder strike and rudder damage, and then what appears to be the loss of the rudder between 50-100 feet of altitude, resulting in complete loss of control. I will post video of his crash later on rotary forum. Proper technique is to balance on the mains to keep the rotor accelerating and loaded, without letting the nose get too high. It requires skill and feel, and not everyone is capable of this.
Hi - well first of all clearly I'm sorry hear about your dad. That aside I don't equate what you describe to any advice here and actually I don't know anyone that suggests a technique you describe. What aircraft was this and where? Just surprised you have so much detail on the causal items when it happened yesterday?
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 We have video of the crash and pictures of the gyro. I am speculating that he had rotor flap hitting the rudder because the acceleration phase was not on the video, but the rudder is missing from the wreckage and there is complete loss of control in the air. But we would have arguments about whether or not you should balance on the mains, and I have done many takeoffs with him in my Magni that would make me uncomfortable. He was flying a new AR-1 with 915 and closed canopy.
rickdc3 yeah I mean as I said I am very sorry that this is a conversation off the back of a death. Not a nice thing especially at this time of year so sincerely heart felt condolences. On this balancing on the mains view. Many people mis relate what I say or advocate. The first is that if you take off as I suggest you do effectively balance on the mains it’s just that this part isn’t a focus. I prefer to focus on take offs. That aside 915 motor (I suspect not much time on type?) couldn’t it just as easily be an over steep pitch up at take off and forward stick low g? I find it hard to believe that there is a rotor strike and an ability to climb away. How many hours on the aircraft did your dad have?
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WCLvtWRE9ak.html From your link and comments. "My father had 40 years of flying experience. CFI, Commercial, Multiengine, and still current in IFR. He has been flying gyros for several years. Was turning 77 next month. He sold his Cavalon about a year ago and has been flying with me in my Magni M24 while he waited to get a new gyro. I did not like letting him do take-offs in my gyro, but let him practice anyway. He was unable to keep the stick back until the nose wheel came up, and catch it to balance on the mains. If he tried, the nose would stay too high and we would take off with too high an angle of attack and too slow an airspeed. So he would let the stick go forward as we accelerated and he would keep the nose wheel on the ground until 50-60 mph. We would have HUGE arguments over this, but he said that on the forums and other gyro "schools" they were no longer teaching balancing on the mains. Yesterday was his first solo flight in his new AR-1 with closed canopy and 915 engine. The rudder is HUGE. We don't know exactly what happened yet, but we have crash pictures and video of the crash. My theory is that he developed some rotor flap on the takeoff role which damaged the rudder. I believe the rudder came off in flight (I don't see it in the crash photos), causing complete loss of directional control (gyros can't fly in reverse). We need to teach that balancing on the mains is the only safe technique, and if the pilot can't do it without letting the nose get too high, they shouldn't be flying solo." TBH first solo and how much experience? The take off looked fine.
Robert David - within the limitations of a 4 minute video do you have a better phrase for what happens at 3m35sec?? Since I started these short films 3 years ago there are many people come to the party with cheap shots/ one liners... few reply to give a more coherent view. Remember my films are just my view, they aren’t the law and I’m happy to change a view given with intelligent debate. I guess other pilots will benefit from that debate also. What I do know is that gyroplane flight in the USA is becoming increasingly limited by the availability at any price of insurance- that’s because the level of airmanship is so poor frankly.
Es Pr yes depressed at this type of vacuous comment and the frequency of gyroplanes that get destroyed doing nothing more sophisticated than take off or land...
