Handloading PART VII, Let's Make Ammo! ~ GunBlue's Complete Guide 

Crimping is not universally required, but is essential for particular applications. There are two situations where crimping should be applied. But there are reasons that it should not be. As for crimping, the first is for increasing bullet retention. Recoil can induce inertial bullet movement within a magazine that can affect overall length. The movement is progressively and sequentially worse with each shot, for the rounds that remain in the magazine. Heavier recoiling rifles are grossly affected, but even lighter calibers are susceptible if they are subjected to recoil repeatedly, as in large capacity magazines. Obviously, this does not apply to single shot situations. Some relatively vigorous recoiled resist bullet movement, when they have long case necks, as in many of the 30-06 family with light or medium weight bullets. The magnums are notorious for this condition, especially the short necked 300 Winchester Magnum. The other cause for bullet movement is cartridge cycling, where the round is subject to repeated reloading, as with duty or self defense pistols that are regularly unloaded and reloaded. The other condition that demands a heavy crimp are with slow burning powders that are difficult to ignite, and where bullet resistance is vital. Powders such as W-296 (same powder as H-110) simply will not ignite unless bullet crimp is very firm, leaving a bullet lodged in the barrel or forcing come from primer detonation, and a mess of unburned fine ball powder to clean from the mechanism, not to mention the anxiety and embarrassment. This also applies to certain large capacity magnum rifles, which can be a real horror, as these often cause delayed ignition, several seconds to a minute later, as embers cook and the shooter sweats. Reloading manuals are extremely important, as they publish these specific conditions. Such powders also require heavy ignition, using magnum primers, to kindle a reliable and consistent flame. Two negatives can apply to crimping; case fatigue at the case neck from work hardening, and some degree of accuracy loss, which is not necessarily to be expected, as crimping can contribute to more uniform resistance from shot to shot. You'll never find a bench rest shooter who crimps, whether it's helpful or not. A seldom mentioned benefit of crimping is with revolver cartridges, as a round roll crimp greatly eases loading into a cylinder, while it has little negative effect on case life. I always crimp under the following conditions: With ALL handgun cartridges. I recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die as the best, period. Their crimp is not dependent on a cannelured bullet, and auto pistol rounds are sized over the bullet, greatly increasing hold and factory dimensions. So, each situation is a rule into itself, that you must assess. I hope I helped that assessment.

Yes, I was using scraps left over from cherry cabinets, and it didn't leave me 50. Actually, 45 works perfectly when I'm loading 40 cases and I can use the last row to move them as I go. I have quite a number of blocks that I have made, and I have 50 and even 60 holers, so I'm not running out.

The principle reason for cannelures is for bullet retention. Secondarily, they can provide some degree of uniformity in bullet release tension, though virtually all accuracy rifles and record breaking guns have used non crimped ammo, because other factors create that uniformity by more efficient means. Military and commercial ammo is always firmly crimped, for the sake of providing bullet retention with guns that have harsh cycling, as with autos. Crimping causes additional working of brass, which work hardens and reduces brass life, which should be taken into consideration. I only recommend crimping for auto rifles, as with AR and Mini 14 types, but only to the degree necessary to keep bullets from moving in cases during cycling, which is about a half crimp, and is barely visible. Cannelured bullets are not required with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, because it uses an enclosing collet that crushes the brass around the bullet. Other dies, which employ a progressive roll crimp, absolutely require cannelures, or cases will bulge and/or distort. Crimps are absolutely unnecessary for bolt action or other manual cycling rifles, unless they are very high recoiling, in conjunction with heavy bullets, where recoil inertia can move bullets while cartridges are still in the magazine. That being said, I have never had one bullet move in my 300 Winchester Magnum, even when used with heavy 200 grain bullets. Neck tension has always been sufficient. My suggestion is to employ a crimp when you find a circumstance that requires it, but don't use more than necessary.

GunBlue490 Thank you. I am planning to buy the Lee Loadmaster .223 system and then move to .308, 9mm and .45 acp. From your videos I have seen the Lee Loadmaster work properly and several advantages over the higher prices systems.

This is a great comment. I totally understand the brain hurt part. Doesn’t matter if you’ve been reloading for a while this guy is a library.

Yeah great comment and reply, ive been playing with varying degrees of crimping and not crimping while developing a load for my long range platform and have come to the conclusion that no crimp is the win but its nice to understand why!

i weigh every charge with a balance scale. Nothing wrong with that.

Watch my video about primers. Flash hole deburring maintains consistent flash distribution and assists uniformity. Primer pocket cleaning affects nothing. The primer is a self contained unit that works independently of what it sits in. Once it is tightly seated, the firing pin force against it is uniform. Watch my recent demonstration video with my 257 Roberts. Those flash holes have never been cleaned in over a dozen firings. The cases were deburred, and have been annealed three times, tumbled with old primers intact, neck sized, and trimmed as necessary. They are seven year old, standard Remington brass with fairly considerable weight deviation and are neck turned for concentricity. Certain things are very important, and I speak of them, but primer pocket cleaning is not one of them.

Would it be productive to leave just a hint of lube...,and I really mean a hint, on the newly loaded ammo so that the cartridge would opperate smoother as it travels up into the chamber?

@@roonbooks1418 no, because upon firing your cartridge expands griping in the chamber safely reducing back pressure. After firing is complete cartridge slightly retracts for extraction

@@roonbooks1418 As others have warned, any oil or lubrication on your finished ammo is a dangerous thing. It hinders the grip of the cartridge to the chamber when being fired and will cause more backward forces on the bolt. All loaded ammunition should be clean and dry with no oils on them.

Thank you for your kind support. I have typically worked with 15 thousandths for load development, which is very often the best anyway. Once the best load is discovered, then I may try other seating depths, but most rifles like the bullet close. However, 30 thousandths is Nosler's recommended accuracy depth for their lead free bullets, which probably would be so with other brands of solid copper bullets as well. I don't know the rationale behind that, and I have not used them, but they claim it works.

Thank you for your reply and clearing that up for me, I appreciate it very much. God Bless.

I will check into that.

I’m not sure why he did that ,but I know u only need to trim the ones that are over the trim length so it probably doesn’t matter if before or after aslong as u don’t trim cases that don’t need trimming. One odd thing is ppl that always trim even when not needed then their cases end up short!!!! So doesn’t matter trim if over *max trim length.

Loaded ammo is completely water proof. There's nothing more watertight under pressure than brass to brass (or plated) fittings, which is how plumber's compression fittings work for gas and water. After you finish loading it, just put the loaded rounds back into the same tub you used to toss the brass with the Lee lube, add a few drops of Dawn dish detergent and fill it with warm water and simply swirl them around with your hand. Rinse with clear water, then dump onto a soft clean cotton towel and pat them dry. You will have sparkling ammo with no trace of lube.

You can shoot that ammo literally under water when your are done if you’ve done it correctly. The primer is now as safe as it can ever be. Don’t worry you can gently wash your ammo once it’s finished cartridges. This dude is 100% in it and I’ve yet to find him mistaken on anything. Even the most trivial misspoken words are extremely rare. Like a breath of fresh air, watching doesn’t make your brain hurt from sorting the bs out for anything of value. Love this guy. (However your brain may eventually hurt if you watch long enough due to learning better, more fundamental reasoning and science behind by things work, even things you already knew, but didn’t *really* fully know “the why behind the why”.) And it just clicks, because he does such a meticulously good job of laying out all the fundamentals and puts everything on the table, so to speak, that you will need in order to understand a concept behind a technique, or tool use, etc., and it’s rare to find someone who has taken that time, and is more concerned with giving you good information in a way that will be meaningful to you and be useful and possibly extremely valuable to your safety (and that of others). Really great service and I’m happy to deal with some commercials and I hope RU-vid lets him keep them up and monetize this great and considerably valuable service. I feel like almost always, work on this level is inevitably a labor of love. Sorry kinda got off topic, but I don’t comment that often.

@@GunBlue490 Is the final product waterproof if it isn't crimped?

Although I have been reloading for a few years I learned a lot from your video. Ive also spent money on things I don't need. Bless you. Joseph T.

I did a two part video on loading the 45 with the Lee Loadmaster. It covers the various dies, and what they do, even if used without a progressive press.

@@GunBlue490 Thanks, I couldn't find them but do you also have a video on run out and is this an effect from the die, turret or case?

tjmooremusic Trimming is necessary for cases that grow in length. That growth is caused by three particular stresses that are almost entirely related to bottle necked cases; the stretching of the case that fills the headspace dimension, the flow of brass forward during firing, and the stretching that occurs during the resizing process as the neck sizing button pulls out of the case neck. In all the many countless thousands of straightwall handgun cases that I have reloaded, including police training loads, I have never encountered the need for trimming.

GunBlue490 thanks for the info. and for the quick response. another question I gave is, I will be reloading 38 special and 357 magnum for both my revolver and levergun using 158 grain. could the loads be the same or should they vary? I'm also at odds to decide what kind of bullets to use.... I'm guessing that there would be choices. just trying to keep things simple. again I'm truly a beginner at this. thanks alot..

tjmooremusic The second answer is that I have no particular favorite brands of cases with regard to handguns. For the finest accuracy, it is always best to segregate brass, but I can also tell you that I competed in many official matches with mixed brass that was supplied by the department, and it never gave rise to accuracy issues. I have purchased Starline pistol brass on a number of occasions simply because they are often available in bulk at a reasonable cost, and are very satisfactory. They are great, but not necessarily any better. All brands of primers are of very fine quality, and are 100% reliable. Match grade primers are more slowly and meticulously produced, and undergo more rigorous quality control checks for uniformity, but are only potentially more uniform; they are no more reliable, nor notably more unifom for anyone but the most demanding accuracy shooter. In any given lot of standard grade primers, they can be every bit as accurate. The additional 25% or greater cost provides nothing that the vast majority of shooters would find truly advantageous. Remember that primers do have varying degrees of flash intensity between brands, so they should not be loaded haphazardly without individual testing. Bullet manufacturers offer countless different offerings; some directed at the hunting community, others for target shooting, and others for general plinking. Most hunting grade jacketed bullets are capable of match grade accuracy, though very expensive. Most pistol target bullets are non jacketed, and are often quite inexpensive in bulk. I recommend that you purchase good reloading manuals and become familiar with all these matters, as it's far more than I can answer in this format.

GunBlue490 thanks for your time take care.

tjmooremusic Let me first clarify that 38 Special and 357 Magnum loads work at significantly different pressures, and load data cannot be shared. It is entirely permissible to lower the operating pressure of 357 Magnum loads to nearly 38 Special levels, but only to the minimum specifically given in recognized data. For highest accuracy, you should develop loads in your handgun and rifle separately. It is entirely possible and preferable, in my view, to arrive at a load that gives good performance in both, but that is nit always easy to arrive at. Any given load will always deliver higher velocities in longer barrels, which can be quite significant when comparing rifle to handgun. Under NO circumstances, should the loader ever presume that a rifle can operate at greater pressure levels than a handgun, unless specifically stated in a manual. Remember that modern pressure levels are typically defined by the cartridge, and not by the firearm, except in specific very well established and approved circumstances (ie, 45 Colt, 45-70 Gov't) that do not apply to either of the rounds you are loading.

You did, but I should have included single shot rifles, which can usually handle neck sized brass. Autos, pumps, and levers simply do not possess the camming leverage necessary to reliably chamber or extract brass that has not been fully restored to near factory dimensions. Autos, in particular, are chambered by means of a passive spring that has little closing force, and sometimes require special small base dies to more fully resize the case to prevent sticking. My Savage 99 is a case in point. I must use a conscious effort to fully close the bolt completely on cases that have been fully sized.

I understand your concern. The important matters are to use the least amount, and to allow the product to dry. This tub method is the one I use for loading large batches of .223 Remington rounds with my Lee Loadmaster, by the hundreds. It will certainly get on the shoulders, but because it's dry and so slight, it causes no hydraulic dents. A very light haze on the case is all that's required. Be vigilant for cases that have an accumulation of lubricant and just wipe them off as they come through the process. I generally use a large 1/2 gallon plastic ice cream tub into which I place two or three very small dabs of lubricant. I toss in 150 or so at a time and shake around. If they have too much, I add more cases. If they're too dry, I add another dab. If I'm doing precision loading with a manual press with fewer cases involved, I just wipe off the necks and shoulders as I go.

@@GunBlue490 Good information - thank you. One further item: Is your (simple & effective) tub method applicable to de-primed brass (i.e. will residual lube in the primer pocket cause any issues?). FYI - I'm reloading .303 British. Thanks in advance.

nono559 Bullets have no predetermined seating depth. The depth is determined by the handloader, on the basis of the minimum overall length of a cartridge, chamber length, magazine length, and a supportive bullet to case contact. Please review my video, as I cover those issues. Minimum overall length is stated in all manuals for every bullet made in America, which allows for proper and safe pressures with the loads they list. But the maximum can be far greater, which you assess. Of course, a bullet cannot exceed the chamber length, or the action will not close, and there should generally be at least .015 clearance to the rifling, unless you are a benchrest shooter. Of course, cartridges cannot be longer than their magazine, unless individually loaded. Some bullets come with crimping grooves, called cannelures, but they can be ignored unless deep crimping is required for heavy recoiling loads, or for simply appearance. The general minimum seating depth for reliable durability is one caliber deep, so a 30 caliber bullet should be seated a minimum of .308. But the 300 Savage never had a 308 long neck, and they never suffered in normal use. Handloading requires a person to use some essential critical thinking skills, in conjunction with established practices.

Was that mentioned in the video about the dyes,sir?

Crimping is used to prevent bullet movement in either cycling or as a result of recoil. Most auto cycling gun ammo should be crimped, only as needed to prevent bullet movement. Heavy handgun rounds are always crimped, according to their design. Do it only if required, according to your own usage.

Adam Taylor I've done it either way. I have measured brass both ways, and it makes no difference in the long run. It's like driving a racetrack and stopping for pit stops. The brass will eventually lengthen exactly the same amount during the shooting/reloading cycle, whether done before or after. It's usually less disruptive to do all loading steps together, especially on progressive systems. I have never measured more than .001 growth after sizing, which is nothing. Sizing stretch is caused by expander ball dragging on dry case necks. One stroke of a case neck brush before sizing eliminates dragging entirely.

Very interesting. Thanks for these videos, they're full of great information!

Interesting. I'm not saying you're wrong, but my experience has been different. If I cut to length then resize, I can have up to a 0.03" change in case length. So I always resize first, then cut to length. whatever works for each of us I suppose.

nono559 If 40 grains is maximum, that's the maximum, yes. I'm not clear on what you are referring to, if you will placemark the time on the video. I think I stated in this video that to find the ten percent starting point, simply move the decimal over one place. Incremental test loads are one decimal more, or one hundredth of the maximum load, rounded off to the nearest tenth of a grain. So, your 40 grain max load starts at ten percent below, which is 4 grains less (36 grains), and the incremental test loads increase by 4 tenths of a grain for each lot, stopping at 40 grains. For a modern, strong firearm in good condition, most experienced loaders consider it unecesssary to go back a full ten percent, unless you wish to. But never go back more than the minimum recommended load given in a loading manual, as some slow burning powders react unfavorably.

The time on video is at 40 min. I also wish to thank you for the valuable knowledge air!

Sir !

Wayne Bailey I get a kick out of these arguments that go around and around. The simple answer is that it makes no difference whatsoever. The greater question is what is suitable for the circumstances and conveniences at hand. The only reason one trims a case is to prevent it from exceeding the chamber length, which is a specified limit. If, for instance, one is loading a 243 Winchester cartridge, the SAAMI case length cannot be greater than 2.045 inches, or it will exceed the length of the chamber on firing, and will crimp the bullet as it exits the case, causing excessive and dangerous internal pressures. The chamber length is slightly longer to account for the growth of the case when it is at maximum allowable length. In practical use, however, loading manuals provide a "trim to length" dimension that is traditionally ten thousandths shy of the maximum, which provides the convenience of more than one firing between trimmings, and also allows for such events where a case may grow during firing inordinately long, beyond chamber size. So, the trim length of the 243 is stated to be 2.035 inches. But it could as well be 2.038, 2.042, or the maximum of 2.045. If you trim a case prior to sizing, the sizing process may cause the case to grow by one or two thousandths, but they will all grow together, if they do at all. If you trim after sizing, they will also be the same. I have trimmed either way, and it makes no difference whatsoever. Certain trimming devices are made for post sized cases, while others which solidly secure the case, as with my Forster, are not. The Lee trimmer requires that the primer pocket is empty, but it will work with simply decapped cases; whether they are sized has nothing to do with their system either. As to the issue of cases being of uniform length when within allowable length, I have this to say: if I am loading my accurate bolt varmint gun, I will pester myself to fuss with trimming all cases to the same length. If I am loading for my stock 223 AR-15 or Remington pump, the issue is rather moot; such fussiness is not going to be rewarded in any material way in the least, with such factors overwhelmingly obscured by creepy triggers, poor bedding, and market grade barrels. Your only concern is to stay within the maximum overall length. In fact, if you accidentally trim somewhat shorter than the trim length, the sky will not fall.

Thanks for your reply! I love your down to earth videos!

Thank you sir, also thought about that. You are one seriously practical teacher backed by field knowledge!

Yes , because resizing my cause the case to lengthen .

Excellent question! Either way works, but the question boils down to the greater of two issues. Sizing first allows the most efficient trimming, after any stretch caused by pulling the case over the extractor, if there is any. Sizing after trimming corrects any possible distortion caused by the trimming process. I've experienced little resize lengthening with cases, as most lengthening occurs during firing. On the other hand, I have experienced some, albeit minor, distortion caused by handling during the trimming that affects cartridge runnout, which certainly can have a serious negative effect on accuracy. The former is an efficiency issue, whereas the latter is an accuracy issue. In reality, there's no practical difference, except in terms of convenience. Convenience wise, the Zip Trim is better suited to the method shown, as the clearance is rather tight on the case length gauge after sizing, and can easily leverage the case sideways and distort it. With the Forster trimmer, I always size first, as you suggested, because the pilot and chuck maintain the case in perfect alignment. And that's best!

+GunBlue490 Thank you for your response. Have truly enjoyed all of your videos.

That's absolutely not true. Standard case trimming reduces length ten thousandths of an inch, and no properly lubricated case of any sort will lengthen more than a thousandth during sizing. I've conducted numerous tests on cleaned and uncleaned primer pockets over the course of 45 years with many very precise sub-MOA rifles and no amount of cleaning makes any difference whatsoever. If you enjoy doing it, that's fine, but it's entirely a wasteful endeavor that soothes only the fussy mind, not the gun. What does matter is removal of the inner burr with a deburring tool for a new case, which improves flash uniformity.

@@GunBlue490 Repeated seating of primers in a primer pocket without cleaning may cause a high primer , and i have had cases lengthen 5-7 one 1000 of an inch in resizing them . I have also been reloading for 45 years , and my concern is not MOA results but i am just saying i have always resized before trimming and that is what i teach in my classes , and i clean my primer pockets over a tissue i always get a lot burnt flakes. As me being a fussy mind , I was a Dental Tech. for 30 years and was raised by my father a Master Dental Tech to do everything you can to make the product the best it can be , So i am sorry i am so fussy

Frode Hanssen Your dies come packed with detailed instructions, but let me see if I can help. Put aside all your cases, because they have nothing to do with adjustment of either your sizing die or factory crimping die. There is no room to get a piece of paper between a properly adjusted die and shell holder, let alone fingers to twirl cases. As to the factory crimp die, remove your die from the press, then raise your ram with the shell holder in it to its top position, and be sure it stays there. Put your knee against the handle so it stays up. Back the die lock ring off and screw your die in until the sliding collet touches the shell holder firmly. Looking down from above, note the four segments. Those are the fingers that squeeze the case around the bullet. Tightening the die after contact will increase the crimp. But NEVER adjust beyond the point that the gaps close, as this is far too much stress on your die and press, and is far more than needed for any cartridge. For the 308, a light crimp will perform nicely, without unnecessary work hardening of the brass. As to the sizing die, again with no brass, repeat the same process of raising the ram to the top, lower the die body until it contacts the shell holder. Release pressure on the ram and lower the die another quarter turn. You should be able to work the ram to full extension, but the die will take all mechanical spring out of the system. Be sure you properly lubricate your cases according to my recent case lube video before resizing... not excessively. FYI, crimping is not required for bolt action rifles, so use only a light crimp... about 1/2 turn at most. Heavy recoiling rifles and autos can benefit from 3/4 turn, but don't overdo, as it will provide no benefit at all, and shorten brass life.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. My English isn't the best, so might have explained it a bit wrong. The space is around the 4 crimp arms and bullet. And with finger on bullet tip, i can move it around still. The instruction says "Turn the die until it touches the shell holder", doesn't say anything about firmly. If i fasten the die with ram up as much i can with fingers then it actually make a crimp. So i guess it's about how firmly then :) Do you not use crimp on the bullet seating die for 308? Regarding the full size die, i just find it a bit confusing when i sometimes see reference to "touching the case", since for me it's always the shell holder the die stops at (as the instructions also says). Side question. I struggle with accuracy on cannelured bullets (Hornady 150 FMJ-BT, and 165 Interlock BTSP) after testing out many different powder charges, and would love to hear your thoughts about ignore seating the bullets to cannelure and use bigger/smaler col. Oh and yes, i have watched a lot of your movies. RU-vid on TV and relaxing with coffee to your movies, and needles to say im hooked on the theory behind rifle shooting and reloading :)

Frode Hanssen The crimp die works independently of the bullet seating process, after the entire loading operation, and can even be performed on previously loaded rounds. Watch the fingers as they close together, as you raise the ram without the cartridge in place. Compression of the die collet against the shell holder progressively closes the fingers, and makes the crimp. Simply contacting the die with the shell holder does nothing. Sizing dies must always tightly contact the shell holder. The case is resized as it is forced into the lubricated die. If you feel no force being exerted, the brass is not being sized. The effort to resize brass cases is sufficient to require the press that can apply over a ton of pressure. Most bullets have no cannelure, simply because they are rarely necessary. The placement of the crimp at the cannelure is necessary with regular sizing dies, when adjusted to apply a crimp, but the Lee Factory Crimp Die makes its own, anywhere you desire, on any type of bullet, irregardless of the cannelure made by Hornady or whomever. The bullet jump from the lands, magazine length, and overall length are the sole deciding factors. I have a video that discusses these issues and the measurement of overall length determination in full. Using a crimp on a cartridge is entirely unnecessary, except for the types of conditions I mentioned in the previous note, above.

I see i did write wrong. I did mean the bullet seating die, not full resize die. And just figured out that my bullet seating die does not have crimp.. So of course it will not touch the case :) Didn't see before now that Lee have bullet seating die with and without crimp, i just assumed they was the same. But i guess the instructions for factory crimp die is wrong then. Copy and past from instruction: "Screw the Lee Factory Crimp Die in to touch the shell holder, plus ½ turn more. " When it touch the shell holder, i can still turn it 1 full turn by hand before it stops. Then i have to lower the arm for to turn more. Yes, i watched the movie about finding COL and subtract 0,03". I was just wondering if bullets with cannelure, needed to be seated to the cannelure. Or can the cannelure be above shell neck. When you don't plan to crimp at all.