Making accurate loads ~ Understanding powders, Part II 

Ditto!

ditto too!

I was reloading 40 years ago, before I was old enough to even shoot regularly, and I never knew that trick.

Very good tip, I'll be using that one. Really useful switching from small to larger loads.

I just subscribed to this channel recently and absolutely love hearing his best practices. This video is long but well worth with it.

Thanks. One thing... there's no better powder, and whoever says that is clueless. H-4350 and IMR-4350 are very similar, but have slightly different burning rates, that must use different charge weights, but neither is better than the other, nor are any other powders. There are powders that work better in certain guns, but whether one is better than the other for yours is only something that your own evaluation can reveal. I have used both versions of 4350 through the years and have had superb results with both in the guns that liked them. My .257 Roberts loves both. Don't be surprised if your gun does, either. Just don't use the same data.

Your words are a great encouragement. Thank you, and may God bless you.

Donald R The primer devices have been upgraded since for improved function. Contact Lee for replacement.

Thanks for the info , I will contact them first thing Monday . As much as I enjoy shooting when I have the funds , reloading isn't a top priority , I have been unable to get out and do any shooting in over 3 years due to medical issues & surgeries for hip and lower back . I hope to soon be able to get out and have some fun . I still carry most of the time , but being unable to stand upright kinda puts a kink in actually trying to shoot . Love your videos , keep up the awesome work .

Alan Bycroft WHOA!!! You are using a standard rifle powder that is entirely unsafe for reduced power loads that can result in any number of catastrophic consequences!!! I cannot overstate the danger. Reduced loads use very fast burning powders that are in the pistol and shotgun burn rate, and you MUST consult a manual for this special purpose data! Even then you cannot safely drop below velocities of about 1750 feet per second, in order to maintain safe internal pressures. Contrary to what many believe, it is NOT safe to reduce pressures below established parameters. Do not use filler materials. Once popular, they have a history of causing serious damage, or worse. If you wish to use reduced lead bullet loads, obtain a copy of Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, which is the only complete and reliable reference material. As to the cycling, it is impossible to cycle the action of any gas operated automatic firearm below standard full pressures that it was engineered for. They are not adjustable. The gas system is fixed, and requires particular gas pressure and burn rate that develops cycling pressure in the gas tube. Single loading of such rounds is the only option.

A standard target load for 38Spl was 2.8gr Bullseye and a 148gr HBWC. Would take out the X-ring at 50yds on a 1500 target. The fact that the bullet filled most of the case probably helped. I miss the revolvers, they were banned in the UK. Enjoying fullbore rifles though, a different animal compared with revolvers.

I do something similar as I usually load light loads of pistol calibres which are easier to double charge.

Fredmullegun It's a rewarding, fun project. I made that block from cherry left over from making kitchen cabinets. You can make a simple verticle drill guide jig from a couple of thicknesses of hardwood glued together that will position your bit upright consistently, and use a makeshift stop for consistent depth.

I use 1 2 3 4 5 ect. If I load 3 or 5 loads of my lowest charge of 50 grains that is 1 so all 5 get a number 1. Then my second charge on 50.5 would be all marked with 2!

Perhaps I spoke in more general terms than you might have expected. As a fellow accuracy loader, I certainly don't consider all powders to be of equal performance, as my comment may have suggested, and I have spent countless trips back and forth from my loading bench to the shooting bench in the quest for those golden loads. But, audience is largely made up of those new to the game, who have need for solid, reliable loading advice. I recall many years ago listening to old handloaders who made it sound as if loading was virtually impossible for the uninitiated, and that no worthwhile load was possible without having special inside knowledge. It nearly kept me from entering into the fun. I still see that highbrow stuff going on today, and still encounter folks that don't dare to try their hand for fear of it. Rather, I want to encourage people, and subtract the unnecessary mystery. Just as a person encourages a child to enter the water for her first swimming lesson, and then tells them they did perfectly, Dad didn't mean that in the literal sense, as in being a man Olympic swimmer. I don't want newcomers to get bogged down in details. I want them to be confident that indeed, it doesn't make a bit of difference which powder they pick. I have a book full of great loads, but even the worst powders I've tested on those pages were certainly capable of producing acceptable accuracy that would make a newbie smile at his or her accomplishment. Once they get involved, they will have a lifetime to be their own critic and explore different powders and work up those golden loads, which I will soon be helping with. That was my intent. I hope you understand the context of my videos in reference to the intended audience. Between us, I have found R-15 to be an exceptionally strong performer with the 22-250, and it's very uniform. It also performs wonderfully in the 300 Savage, giving sub-MOA accuracy, along with velocities close on the heels of the 308. IMR-4064 is the accuracy champ with that round, but R-15 is not far behind, with bonus speed, for those needing it. Thanks for your support.

@@GunBlue490 I kinda thought your terms may of been in general about all the powders listed on the page of the reloading manual..I too meet folks at my local range off and on who ask me questions about this serious undertaking of endangering our own lives by handloading .. When i entered into the world of handloading i was not quite 18 years old and i remember the first Speer reloading manual (which i still have only listed 5-6 powders for each bullet weight ) Not much of a choice and mostly the powders were IMR powders .. My father loaded for a .270 Win at the time and he only bought 1 pound of 4831 and 1 pound of 4350 and loaded loads of each powder using 130 grain bullets .. One trip to the range was all it took to find out which powder produced the tightest groups.. My father bought Outdoor Life each month and he felt Jack O' Conner being an expert in the hunting field of hunting big game would know what worked the best in his .270 Win.. Jack would publish his favorite loads most of the time before hunting season..I could understand by saying it different make a difference which powder they used as long as they picked one on that page for that bullet weight .. I have done close to the same thing for folks that asked but they used a different powder than i did , yup i got a phone call from one fellow because his loads the way he put it was like OO buckshot on the target and couldn't understand why? He didn't understand why that my top load being the most accurate in my rifle may not shoot in a rain barrel in a different firearm, his... He kept saying a 6mm is a 6mm, yes very true but in caliber only, different barrel twist, barrel and action bedding and on the list goes which you already know.... Over the years i have seen that take place a lot , even side by side on the shooting bench with same calibers and different make firearms , my Sako fired excellent groups with MY LOAD so he asked if he could shoot a few of mine so i gave him 5 rounds to fire out of his Savage 110 , not only did he have fliers he only had two bullets that were 1/4" apart...I have throughout the years have had things like "my favorite load" come back to bite me when i shared it with other handloaders new and starting out, yup i got a few phone calls about those too, now i just offer suggestions , just follow your reloading manual, i do not give out my top/accurate load data ..I do not own an AR 15 /MSR or need one or want one or even like the rifle and i feel the same way after shooting a number of them, i think they are great for the folks who like them and hunt with them here where i live .. I see more and more of them at the range every time i go there .. One gunshop in my area has four racks and they are all filled with AR or AK rifles any brand you may think you want plus all the toys to add to them.. Same thing shooting IDPA shoots, i have fired Glock , Sig, Nighthawk, Beretta and a few other brands .. But for me i don't like plastic handguns and never will and i will not buy one just because it holds 16+1 or 18+1 rounds ..The other thing i noticed , there are more people shooting themselves with these dam striker fired handguns than i realized, that and these dam inside the pants holsters , i don't get that , why in the hell would anyone anyone want to carry a firearm in their underware , even master NRA instructors have fired striker fired models off inside the class room.. I' m not a great fan of the 1911 even though i have fired almost one hole groups using a Colt Gold Cup a few times yes i was impressed , if there was no way around it and i had to own one (semi auto), ya a Colt or Kimber but only in .38 super .. I'm a revolver person always have been..So my EDC comes in at 37 ounces and i carry it in a leather high ride holster, i like that , works fine for me and my needs ..

Pretty much agree with everything you both say. You need to match the load to the individual firearm. That's the beauty of handloading, can be frustrating if you can't get it to work though! I have a .44 Marlin that just doesn't like 200gr bullets. Shoots .432 lead 240gr RNFP very well. It's probably the show twist designed for heavier faster moving bullets.

Lost&found Berrys bullets are standard ogive for the 9mm, and CZ should be adhering to SAAMI standards. Most listed powder charges will provide plenty of room. There is no issue in touching or even compressing powders, as long as its not an extreme compression that forces the bullet back. Try Accurate No 5, which is a very roomy powder that gives good 9mm performance. Listed charges take all these things into consideration. Don't load below minimum listings.

Thank you so much for prompt and detailed explanation!

Data is not necessarily wrong. It can be wrong for any given circumstances that were not present to the author of the data. Many variables can create different test results. Those well known variables, plus powder lot variations that can be very significant, always beg each person to adhere to the standard rule to work up loads carefully, and never assume that any printed maximum loads are safe until such is established for a given gun. If you read the SAAMI pressure test procedures, you will see that the development of pressure data for each cartridge is vastly more complex than anyone can arrive at by traditional loading practice, because it is based on statistical behavior of powders over large test sets, using pressure measurement equipment and strict procedures. It's for this reason that, while a cartridge has an established pressure limit, many powders cannot approach those pressures due to the fact that a statistical number will spike dangerously over the threshold. It's typical for a list of powders in a given cartridge to have maximum pressure loads over a span of several thousands of PSI, with only a few at maximum working pressure. A handloader, not aware of such facts, may see normal pressure indications with a heavier charge than listed, and then have no warning when a round causes serious trouble. Over the years, I have come to understand that one should err on the side of the powder manufacturers data, and that any bullet maker's data that strays from it must be approached carefully. Ten bullets of exactly the same weight and caliber can develop ten vastly different pressures with the same loads, due to shank to bore bearing length variations and jacket thickness and hardness. A 150 grain 30 caliber round nose bullet has almost twice the bearing surface as a military jacketed boat tail, and a Partition bullet with a supportive web across it's midsection can develop greater pressure than a Sierra bullet of similar appearance.

@@GunBlue490 That's very good advice on how bullets vary. Having read through a number of manuals I observed that bullets of the same weight had quite different loads with the same powder. The devil is in the detail with reloading and I always check and recheck. 30 years on and so far no issues but still careful. Thanks from sunny England for all your efforts to produce these videos.

Vince G If I read you correctly, you are speaking in terms of hundredths of a grain, and you are measuring to one hundredth. In the ballistic universe, all measurements are divided to nothing more specific than a the tenth of a grain, which is indeed a degree of precision that ends the quest. Powder does not burn with the exacting precision that affects any charge weight to a degree in excess of a tenth, in even the smallest capacity case. My many years of accuracy testing have confirmed to my absolute satisfaction that weighing charges has no advantage whatsoever over measuring them. I have tested weighed loads against charged loads many times and have never found any relevance in the least. In fact, the charged load can outperform the precisely weighed one on any given day, simply because the accuracy game is far more than weighing bullets and powder, and the slightest half mile per hour breeze can shift a bullet off course unexpectedly, twenty times farther than half a grain of powder. I cannot agree with your assessment. If you want precision, use single based extruded powders, load them to within a hundredth of their average charge weight, and you will have arrived at the absolute limit of a cartridges potential. In a 222 Remington case that holds 20 grains, that would be two tenths. I don't know of a measure that throws charges less precise than that. Ammunition does not react to white gloves, hair nets, and laboratory scales.

I've tested many baffles and found no difference, even when the hopper is to the last few grains. The baffles theoretically stabilize powder weight and density, but in reality, the small hole controls that.

P C IMR 4350 is one of my favorite powders that provides excellent velocities and often, superior accuracy in a number of calibers. In answer to your question, no, loads have not been "watered down". That implies that load potential is not being fully utilized, as a cheap restaurant waters down beverages. Load data is entirely based on extremely precise statistical logarithms, developed by SAAMI, that are not apparent in the pressure listings. That is, current data is safe and correct for the same traditional powders. The older data was established before historic research proved them to be cantankerous, and potentially dangerous. Some of the books produced years ago were developed by bench testing, without the use of pressure measuring equipment, or even when it was available, insufficient numbers of test shots were made to define the working parameters if the powders. A working pressure of a firearm is the maximum, not necessarilly the norm. In fact, it's rarely the norm, and it should never be viewed as the target pressure to attain with any powder. IMR 4350 is one of the best powders for top velocities, but as with other slower burning powders, it tends to react unpredictably outside of its comfort zone, and those who push it by watching "pressure signs" have found themselves in emergency rooms or with a stuck bolt on a hunting trip. Loading data is absolutely not watered down for the legal department, as is often suggested. Quite the contrary. I have run into a great many published loads that are simply too much for high grade, modern firearms, which is why the best advice is to never assume a top load is safe in any gun without carefully approaching it, and immediately backing off when things show the slightest signs. My 257 Roberts uses much of that powder, and its most accurate loads are slightly below maximum, but are extraordinarily accurate, which means far more than any velocity that I sacrifice. Keep this always in mind... Each 100 fps is worth only 22 yards of performance in terms of trajectory, and energy, and it rarely means more than 1/4 MOA. I can name some old manuals that had flat-out bad data that I found excessive back when the print was new. Enjoy your powder, and know that it's doing what is responsible for its long popularity.

100 yards is where you measure moa at

@@ericanderson3324 Thanks for that I will have to continue to follow my dream of achieving sub-MOA at the distance I shoot, 300 to 900 metres, which of course has additional issues.

A bit after the fact but for anyone else. If you store your powder and primers indoors just make sure they are not in a strong container. I use a cardboard box as in the event 9f fire there will be no pressure build up and just some fast burning. If stored outside it would need to be in an airtight and impervious to moisture container. Probably plastic so it would just melt in a fire.

Randall Harrington I spoke of the 6mm PPC, but am not personally familiar with the 6mm Norma BR. I'm certain that it is very efficient, though I don't have any knowledge of its velocity. If it is within 100 fps of the 243 Winchester for individual bullet weights, it would satisfy any hunting need. Be sure it has the correct twist rate for the bullet lengths you require.

Daniel Gonzalez If you mean the pocket loaders, they will give you some fun, but are tedious for more than a few rounds. Call them and get a catalog. They have presses and pedestal stands, and even a hand press that works wonderfully, to fit all budgets and space accommodations, no matter how small.

Harry Callahan They are what you describe. They are fixed to specific charges. Adjustable measures adjust to specific charges. Both deliver specific charges, whether fixed or infinitely adjustable. Adjustable measures do not "change", nor are they less precise. This 40 year old RCBS measure charges with precisely the same precision as any fixed measure with the same powders. My Lee disk system is fixed with specific, gauged holes that are measured by cc (cubic centemeters), which I convert to grains by a specific ratio of each powder. My MEC shotshell reloader uses fixed charge bushings that provide specific charges assigned to specific powders in exactly the same way. The RCBS fixed system is not new science. They work just fine, but are indeed fixed, and no one's system is all inclusive, with every charge weight. In many situations, the desired charge falls between the engineered bushings or hole sizes, so using them is nothing less than a compromise. If my 45 likes 5.2 grains of a particular powder, but the closest I can get with a fixed measure is one or two tenths different, which is a lot for that small case and is simply not the sweet spot, I am out of luck. I have never in my life had any occasion where an adjustable measure was unable to deliver consistent, accurate, repeatable charges that provide the ultimate in accuracy. Ball powders are precise; extruded powders are sometimes imprecise, but hugely forgiving. In any event, no fixed measure can throw a more precise charge than an adjustable measure that is fixed at the same volume. I will always go with an adjustable measure, wherever it's possible, where I can fine tune the volume. Powder lots are inconsistent in volume to a small degree, so fixed measurements can swing up and down accordingly, and one has to run out and buy a different measure bushing, or adapt to something else. It's another marketing gadget that most folks really don't need, designed to attract dollars.

Stuck powder charges is another issue, and has nothing to to with using a routine. Certain powders do not flow correctly through certain measures. Banging a measure is a treatment for a systemic problem that requires a look at the cause, not a temporary remedy.

I'm using Lapua for rifle and Starline for pistol. I haven't found to much difference in the big manufacturers for pistol ammunition.

jon b. Nope, mine is 45 years old. They changed the bored dimentions to sell two drums. With the small drum, mine will accurately drop over 65 grains, so larger loads are accurately dropped by just dividing the charge by 2 and doubling. They apparently changed the capacities of the small and large, but I would still prefer working with the smaller one, which cuts a smaller column, but just be sure to use a light to check your loads afterwards so you don't accidentally half charge.

The other lesson to learn is wear eye protection. Like a seatbelt you may never need it, until you do!

COMB0RICO When powder jams across the spout. That load will be light. The next will overcharge.

I zero my 45 year old balance beam with the simple static method. I have checked it over the years on occasion with bullets of known weight, and it's absolutely dead on. Scales have no reason to change, unless they are abused. Powder and primers vary considerably more than any charge weight would show. I understand your reasons for fussiness, but I have done all the same things, and have tested velocities too. One cannot compel a bullet to go into the same hole by simply having exact powder charges and all things uniform. You may be led to believe that, but internal ballistics do not correspond that way, and no ballistic lab has ever reached that conclusion, either, or they would simply publish one load per cartridge. The best that can be achieved is "most consistently uniform" or "generally more".

I never said there is one load. Each and every rifle/barrel has a happy load and possibly two happy loads. I will say though, depending on the powder, I have seen .5 grain of powder will create an additional 50 fps to 75 fps of muzzle velocity. In normal hunting situations that is nothing to be concerned with. I shoot F class, I am not on a bench, I am connected to the rifle. Everything matters then. Bench rest shooters look for the tightest groups closest to the X or V depending where your shooting. When I compete it is the X or the V that counts to win. One tenth of a grain may not matter at 100 yds. but it does at a 1000 yds. That is why I use scales that measure to .01 gr and weigh each and every load. My original question, which you answered, was about zeroing scales. You use a bullet of known weight (that can vary +/- 1.5 gr, that is a known in match bullets) I have 4 different scales, I use only two of the four regularly. I have a problem when you can take a verified calibrated weight and and put it on a supposedly zeroed scale and come up with a different weight between the scales. I can do this all day on any scale you provide. I have adopted the procedure as to set the balance beam scales with the calibrated weight/s and then confirm the point on the digital (that has also been calibrated) that measures to .01 gr.

Vince G Velocity variations occur normally, with the closest possible powder measurements. F class shooters did not invent precision shooting, nor can any degree of scrupulously measured loads alter physics. Thousand yard shooting has been going on for a century, and nothing is new, and attempting .01 grain measurements are certainly not new. I was doing precision electroplating to preciseness of less than .0002 in 1968 in work that helped put a man on the moon. Everything in your sport has been done for a very long time and uses technology that is very long established for many decades, using cartridges, and in some cases, powders that have been around for over 100 years. If you think F class shooters invented precision shooting or perfected it, you are incorrect. You asked me a question, and I answered you. Please do not condescend to me. I didn't derive my knowledge in a vacuum.

Different headstamps will have different internal volumes, which affects pressure. Never mix headstamps or trust a powder charge in a different headstamps brass. I.e. A safe charge in Winchester brass, may be over pressure in Remington brass. Always work up to loads

The general published rule, when dealing with a new load, is to start with ten percent less than the maximum stated load in the manual. A tenth is 10%, but never drop by a fifth, which is 20%!

G Whit I wouldn't know until I tried it, but many people have reported very accurate loads with it for a number of combinations. The most important thing is to follow recommended load data.

I've had great results with 8208 with 50 and 52 grain bullets in both 14 and 8 twists.great powder.

Mark Mackenzie That's impossible to answer. Some cartridges may go three or four loadngs, including the factory load, and some require trimming every load. Much depends on the load density, case taper, and whether and how much sizing is done. Neck sized-only cases can go many shots. The first tool you must invest in is a caliper so you can measure this vital dimension. Never load cases that grow beyond specification, because it will significantly raise chamber pressures and ruin accuracy. A Lyman all purpose snap gauge is handy to check them, but you still need a caliper to correctly set your trim length. Good dial calipers are your best bet, and are easy to read, like a clock dial. I am not fond of digital ones, as they require batteries, are less intuitive to read, and are not as sturdy for years of use.