Has Society Progressed Past The Need For Triangles? (the magical Fire Emblem ones?) 

I Missed Light Magic Overpowering dark magic, and Regular Magic Overpowering light magic and Dark Magic Overpowering Regular Magic.. Trivia: According Telluis Recollection Water Magic and Dark Magic Was Forbidden to Be Studied due Religious connections to Ashruna Flooding The World...Water Magic Represented Ashruna Miraculous power and Dark Magic being forbidden Because Of How Yune was Slandered and Labeled A Dark God. So originally there was five types of magic In Telluis Series. Light, Dark, Water, Fire, Wind, and Thunder. It would be nice Add New Type Of Magic Being Water Magic as Lost Art being Rediscovered and appreciated When Ashruna appear 1200 Years laterTo Stop War in Telluis

terrible, force spell lists were a terrible idea

Said better then i could. Thank you.

Problem is that having a „magic triangle“ just… doesn’t really work? In a gameplay sense? I mean, you kinda said it yourself. The distribution of these different types of mages is just way out of wack. For the players, you get a whole bunch of regular mages, a couple of priests (who mostly just act as a staff bot and nothing else), and like… two dark mages, if you’re lucky. In some games, dark mages are locked to enemy units only, locked behind DLC, or locked behind some optional promotion item. And for the enemies, the early- to mid-game consists of only regular mages, with dark mages being reserved to bosses or the occasional „tough, optional enemy“ (until the late-game where they take the spot of the mage unit), and offensive priests… pretty much don’t exist outside of like one single boss encounter. Having an advantage triangle here just… doesn’t work. Like, at all, unless you completely rework the entire game and it’s lore. The reason why the regular weapon triangle works is because there’s a general balance between sword, lance and axe units. Sure, the first one or two chapters mainly consist of axe units, but it doesn’t take long to find your first soldier or myrmidon. I think Fates unequivocally did the ranged weapon triangle the best. There is no runner-up. That’s the only time where the concept kinda worked Edit: oh yeah, there actually is a second place. Forgot that Engage also had a „ranged“ triangle. Though it is weird that the third part‘s filled in by CQC, and not knives (even though that game does have knives). Maybe it’s a distribution thing? Or they just didn’t want Thieves to get completely shut down by a single unit type

@@KeDe1606 I don't think the situation you described is an issue tbh. Plain old anima mages make up the bulk of magic users since that's the "default" one. Light magic is intentionally weak since it's mostly for utility and not damage, so it's okay that it's disadvantaged to the most common magic type. The dark mage class is rare, tbh it's the only non-personal class in the franchise that really tries to stick out as something special and powerful, so it makes sense that it would have an advantage over the most common mage type. And to round it off, light beats dark, which is strong flavor, but in practice, it means that, in the very rare instance your god-fearing cleric fights against a dark mage, they have a slight edge, though not a big one, given their innate difference in power level. The magic triangle was never meant to be an even split like the weapon triangle, and imo the unbalanced nature of it is an upside.

@@BeefinOutbut, like, don’t you see how what you just described ruins the entire concept of a magic triangle? If the distribution of Light, Dark and Anima isn’t even remotely balanced, to the point where you can count the number of both the enemy dark mages AND offensive light mages on ONE SINGLE HAND, then we‘d just get another Tellius situation where Light magic is actually worthless outside of literally one encounter, and… Dark Mages… actually do not exist. Imagine if that is how the regular triangle worked. Like, that the entire game was just filled with only enemy axe units, a literal handful of lance units and a grand total of three sword units. Wouldn’t you think that that might be just a bit bad? That’s why I said that you‘d need to rework even the lore to have a magic triangle work. You‘d need to somehow justify dark mages existing in non-endgame chapters, and you‘d need to justify the sheer existence of light magic in early chapters, because need I remind you that that’s the literal only magic type locked behind a goddamn promotion? And that promoted enemies only start appearing regularly in the last third of a given game? Conceptually speaking, I think a magic triangle is kinda neat. But it just does not work without completely reworking it in some way

@@BeefinOutand then there are also the more miscellaneous issues that Ghast mentions in this video, like the inherent imbalance between the three types of magic, the non-existent stat differences between Mages, Dark Mages and Priests (they all have high magic and resistance. Dark Mages tend to be a bit slower, but that’s it) and so on. Again, without a major rework, it just doesn’t work

The closest thing we have to a mage armor is a Cipher exclusive character that is shown using magic in 1 card, his name is Valjean and he's awesome btw.

I'm thinking something akin to a magical counterpart to the likes of Swordmaster could shake things up - a high-speed magic class that has low res in exchange, something you'll want to use other mages against because they have the res to not take too much damage from being doubled, while can still put on the hurt themselves despite only getting one swing in.

What was the game that had decent HP and Defenses on Dark Mages?. Cannot remember but they can totally work. I think it actually has been done this way already, but what I would like is: Dark Mages: Decent HP and Defense and the highest Magic, Magical equivalent of Axes. Light Mages: High Speed, Luck and Res, equivalent of Swords. Anima Mages: In-between, equivalent of Lances. With each unit having their own capabilities too, which may be more important than ever if something like Engage classes become the standard in the future (Classic gameplay can get a higher variety of units too, is just that it refuses to make Physical units with high Res besides Pegasus and Magical units tanky).

@@gicrueldad9520 They tried doing this in the GBA games, but the differences were way more downplayed than with sword/axe/lance classes, which is what I propose and honestly think we need to try doing more

Like if you look at PoR Soren ilyana and tormod, who are wind mage, thunder mage and fire mage respectively, they are essentially just mages in the end.

That's almost exactly the same as Awakening and 3 Houses

​@@AkameGaKillfan777I didn't see Surge tomes in Three Houses and weight wasn't even a thing in Awakening.

@@AkameGaKillfan777Awakening did start the trend, but the only type of tome that was meaningfully different was wind with the flying effectiveness. Thunder and fire were both basically the same. Three houses does have some more elements of the differing spells. But given that each character has their own set spell list, you don’t have the same freedom of choice in the system that engage has. A lot of the basic damaging spells of different elements are also pretty similar. I single out engage because it was the first game in my opinion to really commit to having every single magic tome/spell feel unique in practice.

One other nuance I can say about Surge is that while the traditional elements have three tiers (standard, El- and Bolganone/Thoron/Excalibur), Surge only has two - Surge and Elsurge. Nova, the S-Rank tome, does use similar visual effects, but it works significantly differently as instead of being a guaranteed-hit range-1 tome, Nova is a brave tome with standard 1-2 range.

Unfortunately, just like every other game that wind is effective against fliers, its base MT is too low to matter, and is objectively worse than just using fire magic if the enemy is grounded. I don't know what they were thinking when they made the A rank Excalibur 10 MT/80 Hit/5 Crit/9 WT, when we already have a C rank Elfire with 11 MT/90 Hit/0 Crit/7 WT. And Elfire is cheaper to forge! The surge tomes were cool in concept, but magic users rarely have hit rate issues to begin with (especially with most of them being mystic type), so surge magic mostly just ends up being a niche earlygame option to do a little extra damage. In the end, you really just have fire and thunder magic.

Hot take: Mages feel so samey because they're intentionally built too similarly, I'm not sure we've EVER had an armored mage class and have wanted one for years

@@baxterbruce9827 the Baron Class from Genealogy was kind of a Physical Tanky Mage , Also in the Rom Hack Fire Emblem Three Legacies (A.K.A. Three Houses 2) there was an Anima tome that targeted Defense which was a very useful tool in the Mage vs Mage combat

@@danny18894 The issue with counting Baron for this is that: A. It rarely has magic, other appearances have it as a much more standard armor B. It can use almost every weapon in the game in the one time it CAN use magic, so it doesn't really feel like a "Mage Armor" so much as an "Everything armor"

I feel like they tried to make mages different but no one ever notices it in practice, like how some games have dark mages being more phisically defensive. Though I guess people tend to connect the dark mages' bulk to nosferatu more than stats...

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@GMOPsyche Tbf, Dark mages do have higher defense on average, but in practice it’s so negligible compared ti other Mages that it won’t matter all that much. If the difference was more noticeable like other classes then it would matter and by proxy the magic triangle could matter more to.

Once again proving that anything cool you think Fire Emblem should've done, Tearring Saga and Berwick Saga already did it first.

Mmmm An anima spell like "hurl stone", and a dark magic spell that just does physical damage because why not could work like this. Agree on more variety on magic classes. Mage armors and mage cavs would be a nice mix up

I mean, FEH is already doing the magical attack hitting physical defense thing already, so it's not out of the question. Additionally, I totally agree with most of your assessment, except I still want a triangle anyway just because it makes sense for magical elements to interact with each other.

Iirc, Three Hopes of all things actually did have a physical tome, but that game has different gameplay

I like the idea of the magic triangle being in a game with learned spells like 3H. It'd help keep both mages as well as the magic different and unique. Maybe one character has better Anima spells to nuje and not much else while another unit has more basic spells of every type for versatility.

Yeah, the game definitely would need classes, like Spell Blades or MageBreakers.

@@aureliodeprimus8018 Something like the Dreadfighters on Gaiden/SoV? like Swordmasters, slightly less fast (but fast enough to double mages) with very high Resistance

@@reik019 Yeah, propably. Thanks for reminding.

The GBA games are super easy to access on your phone/PC by using an emulator with ROM downloads. 8 is my favourite, and I recommend playing them in order of 8->7->6

Yeah, in my first Awakening playthrough Tharja ended up marrying Kellam, because a Sorcerer with Vengeance and Nosferatu makes for a surprisingly great soaking tank.

Here are my builds for Celine, Ivy, Hortensia, Veyle, Gregory, Zelestia and Mauvier Celine Vidame Emblem Marth Skills Tome Precision 5 Staff Mastery 5 Stats from Emblem (Str+3 Dex+4 Spd+4) Hp: 56 Bld: 11 Str: 36 (+3) 39 Mag: 39 Dex: 27 (+4) 31 Spd: 42 (+4) 46 Def: 24 Res: 36 Lck: 53 Combat Stats Ph/Mag Atk 55 Hit 203 Avo 138 Crit 30 Ddg 58 Rating 279 Excalibur +5 Beginnings Mt 16 Hit 100 Crit 15 Wt 9 Avo 5 Ddg 5 Ivy Lindwurm Emblem Celica Skills Healing Light Staff Mastery 5 Stats from Emblem (Str+3 Mag+5 Res+4) Hp: 60 Bld: 15 Str: 31 (+3) 34 Mag: 42 (+5) 47 Dex: 23 Spd: 34 Def: 33 Res: 42 (+4) 46 Lck: 17 Combat Stats Ph/Mag Atk 67 Hit 149 Avo 76 Crit 11 Ddg 67 Rating 249 Bolganone +5 Echos Mt 20 Hit 95 Crit 0 Wt 10 Avo 0 Ddg 50 Hortensia Sleipnir Rider Emblem Micaiah Dawn on Elthunder Skills Tome Precision 5 Staff Mastery 5 Stats from Emblem (Mag+4, Res+5 Lck +6) Hp: 47 Bld: 11 Str: 24 Mag: 39 (+4) 43 Dex: 36 Spd: 46 Def:16 Res:54 (+5) 59 Lck: 55 (+6) 61 Combat Stats Phys/Mag Atk 56 Hit 202 Avo 177 Crit 18 Ddg 81 Rating 296 Elthunder +5 Mt 13 Hit 85 Crit Wt 10 Avo 40 Ddg 20 Veyle Fell Child Emblem Corrin Skills Knife Precision 5 Tome Precision 5 Stats from Emblem (Hp+15 Mag+4 Res +3) Hp: 48 (+15) 63 Bld: 11 Str: 35 Mag: 51 (+4) 55 Dex: 36 Spd: 32 (-1 WW) 31 Def: 25 Res: 44 (+3) 47 Lck: 28 Combat Stats Phys/Mag 72 Hit 191 Avo 101 Crit 58 Ddg 58 Rating 268 Obscurité + 5 Fates Mt 17 Hit 90 Crit 40 Wt 12 Avo 10 Ddg 30 Gregory Sage Emblem Byleth Skills Healing Light Staff Mastery 5 Stats from Emblem (Mag+3, Spd+3 Lck+ 12 Hp: 43 Bld: 11 Str: 24 Mag: 51(+3) 54 Dex: 32 Spd: 28 (+3) 31 (-5 WW) 26 Def: 20 Res: 47 Lck: 32 (+12) 44 Combat Stats Phys/Mag Atk 64 Hit 216 Avo 99 Crit 36 Ddg 74 Rating 258 Nova +5 Academy Mt 10 Hit 115 Crit 20 Wt 16 Avo 10 Ddg 30 Zelestia Emblem Chrom/Robin Melusine Friendly Boost Soulblade Skills Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace + Tome Precision 5 Stats from Emblem (+3 Str + 5 Dex and + 4 Spd) Hp: 75 Bld: 12 Str: 40 (+3) 43 Mag: 40 Dex: 33 (+5) 28 Spd: 37(+4) 41 Def: 34 Res: 37 Lck: 24 Combat Stats Phys/MagAtk 53 Hit 178 Avo 114 Crit 19 Ddg 44 Rating 269 Brave Sword + 5 Bonds Mt: 10 Hit: 90 Crit: 0 Wt: 12 Avo: 20 Ddg: 20 Reasons why I gave her Chrom/Robin Brute Force [Flying] Giga Levin Sword Mauvier Emblem Veronica Royal Knight Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace + Staff Mastery 5 Stats from Emblem (+5 to Mag +4 to Res and +6 to Lck) Stat from Skill Def +2 Hp: 69 Bld: 12 Str: 44 Mag: 41 (+5) 46 Dex: 48 Spd: 38 Def: 29 (+2) 31 Res: 37 (+4) 41 Lck: 30 (+6) 36 Combat Stats Phys/Mag Atk 55 Hit 179 Avo 114 Crit 4 Ddg 56 Rating 294 Brave Lance + 5 Heros Mt: 11 Hit: 65 Crit: -20 Wt: 12 Avo: 20 Ddg: 20 Veronica for both of his skills his personal and class skills Contemplative synergies with Book of Worlds Contemplative If unit uses Wait without attacking or using items grants Def +2 for one turn Book of Worlds advances 1 stage (to max 5) for each consecutive round that unit uses Wait. Reverts to base stage if unit triggers the effect. [Book I: Seal] If unit initiates combat, freezes foe after combat. [Book II: Flame] If unit initiates combat, freezes foe and sets foe’s space on fire after combat. [Book III: Death] If unit initiates combat, deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat. [Book IV: Dream] If unit initiates combat, restores HP equal to damage dealt during combat, then deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat. [Book V: Science] If unit initiates combat, restores HP to self and adjacent allies equal to damage dealt during combat, then deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat. Reforge and Reprisal + Reforge If units Hp is 11 or more and an adjacent ally is broken after combat sacrifices 10 Hp and removes the break status from ally Reprisal + If unit’s HP is not full, adds 50% of lost HP to Atk.

We need a little more variety in mage classes in general, I've been suggesting an armored mage class for years because we've never had one, imagine a brick wall in heavy armor with high Defense and Resistance (Probably average HP to keep it SOMEWHAT "Balanced" even though low movement is punishment enough) flinging fireballs in a choke point to keep away attackers

Thanks Alfred!!

i absolutely hate three houses approach to magic, by doing so this one has warp early vs other person who never gets warp comgrats you have made one supior choice. Hope you like usng the same magic Unit each time. Becouse they also arent that different from each other. As each and every one is running around for relavance. The only cool bit is the idea of limiting the magic which only hurts the early game. And makes it just that much more frustrating to replay.

Yeah, unique spell lists add so much potential for diverse mage units, and I hope that we see it again. 3h fumbled a bit with the execution, since imo the spells a lot of mages are given aren't interesting enough for me to bother investing in most units. There's also balance problems like Warp being stupidly busted and fairly easy to obtain, but that's more a problem of weapon ranks being piss easy to gain in 3h. Something I think could be expanded upon if it returns is making dark and anima seperate weapons, and reworking them a bit to be more distinct. I'm thinking a generalist/specialist split, where anima is more versatile, with generally better spells, 2-3 range and siege tomes, while black magic is more specialized, with really powerful class/weapon weaknesses, on hit effects, and debuffs.

@@angrypepe7615 i disagree as the main issue will always be one mage will likely have better spells than another. One who gets warp earlyer will always be better than one who never gets it. Which means warp either must be on everyone's spell list, or removed. Same thing would happen with any good tool for magic, Lorenzo despite being rather mediocre also shows that by just having an item that Uber buffs magic isn't enough as what it really does is you have Lorenzo for access only to boff him and give it to lythesia. Meanwhile the other issue is the rank system and limited use, by nature is not a good unit feel, vs something like echoes, being an effective unit 8 times per map until you can be a real person is pretty silly, especially if inputted into a game without the monastery which is already a double edged sword. Echoes does with health payments which can be more balanced as warp would at least have a cost if an enemy can get in with ballista or their own warping units. Not that it still isn't absurdly more stronger anyways. But my big issue with both games is by having this spell list mechanic you really already square up which units are effective at spellcasting and who isn't. Which also runs into the issue of both games class system as a whole which only compounds their problems. Of why have the class system in general if most units have such a blatant obvious path that the game may be more enjoyable if the difficulty and maps were designed with them in the first place. Which is another issue to take into account. Where even lythesia and her early game dark magic can really f with the narrative difficulty like one shoting the edge knight. Doesn't feel like something she should be able to do but because of the spell system she can do so with minimal investment.

@@christianlangdon3766 It'd be boring if everyone had perfectly balanced spell lists tbh Especially in a game like 3H, where if someone has bad spells you can just not make them a mage

@@creativename1673 i mean yea you can, but than why the hell does the game have a class system in the first place. If all it does is give you the ability to screw up. Nor does it excuse the fact that there is almost a canyons depth of difference between the best mages in 3h vs the good enough. One is game breaking the others would have been good in any other context. I am not saying that they all have to have boring or similar spell list, but making it so the best offensive mages also get warp often earlier than others is just so bad in terms of design. And even than you still have the issues that mages especially if your one of those good enough ones like Lorenzo, is you have a really crappy early game feel because you can mage all of 4 to 8 times at best yep that's a class i guess.

I don't have the confidence

@@Faerghast hahaha it's no problem, I enjoyed the video.

I agree. Have Ice magic effective against fire and fire magic good against grass spells or something. You could have a whole load of different elemental spells.

Magic lances have to be one of the most inconsistent weapons in the series