How do *you* feel about the unavoidable "one-shot" scalling in M+? Would you like it to come back in The War Within or would like to see something different? 🤔
going back to TBC doing heroics as a holy priest , there were many cases in which survivability of the party was out of our hands . I think that’s why heroic dungeons were nerfed so hard . now with mythic plus we are witnessing a similar situation but if they keep m0 to m10 the more casual player base will be fine
Idea: Lower damage increase per key level in m+ and add dampening (reduced healing %) that scales with key level. This way you experience difficulty before experiencing 1-shots. Instead of +100% damage, it would be +60% damage with 30% healing reduction. If you have no heals, everyone gets their damage dampened instead.
I may be wrong but I think Blizzard needs to go back to its roots with the Trinity tank, heal, dps including the feel of how healing should be, until they are able to figure out what to do with support classes.
unavoidable one shots are lazy design. i prefer how ffxiv punishes mechanics fails by dps by punishing their damage output for a short period with a debuff.
As a healer since BC they need to take more of the defensives away from DPS and get rid of all the one shot mechanics in Mythic+ it is frustrating as a healer when someone dies and you have no control over it and shouldn’t be like that
It's not supposed to be over your control. Someone gets 1 shot due to failing mechanics - their fault. Simple. What's the point of playing well if it doesnt matter because everything hits like a wet noodle? Your job is to heal unavoidable damage. You don't HAVE TO cover over other people's mistakes, just let them die and learn/get better, or just play witth people who know what they're doing.
In higher keys dps should know to press their defensives to survive, if they take away their defensives then dps can just climb with no brain and healer and tank have all the responsibility. Part of being a dps is knowing when you need to press your defensives in my opinion.
@@caroqtNot necessarily. If DPS don't have to be so overfocused on survivability, then dungeons can instead be tuned with tighter times requiring smarter use of damage CDs and generally better execution of your kit, as a poor DPS player will cause their group to fail the timer. Like it used to be
I just press buttons when told to by WA zug zug, the game is already solved I just follow the path I'm told to and its really boring 3000+io 😴. The intense meta zoomers do my head in, they ruin the game.
I tried healing throughout retail the past two expansions and didn’t like it. I LOVE it in cataclysm. I’ve been enjoying it so much, I’m actually healing and focusing on that alone really. I’d be happy to have a bit more to do, but the main focus should absolutely be healing!
I basically gave up healing, that I played since Vanilla, when they changed disc priests in Legion to be dpsers first (like the game didn't already have enough dpsers). Switched to Holy for a while, but wasn't the same thing. Finally just gave up, and played dps instead. Can't pug heal any more, and I don't raid.
I'm currently just farming wyrms in +2 on my healers and it's the most fun i had all expansion. No affixes is amazing. People make mistakes but at this key lvl you can often save them and that feels good.
As a healer I straight up avoid m+, I only play my heal for raids, +0 and timewalking. M+ is just unfun because affixes makes the already insane scaling even harder to play around. Tyrannical Chargath is a nightmare. All they had to do is just make it flat scaling and no affixes. The only hard cap would be the key level and not the affixes you have to deal with at the high level. Mana management through gear would be lovely and would make it easier for people to feel confident doing only healing.
congrats on the video popping off! When I first came back to WoW in 2020, I chose to be an Hpal and you were one of the first content creators I started watching to learn how to play it. It's been awesome to watch your content evolve and after starting my own channel, I appreciate your hard work even more. Keep it up!
I haven't played cata classic, but I played original cata. I've always considered cata healing being the best healing in WoW ever. Triage >>> one shot pingpong any day.
Tanks are way too immortal in retails to the point where they become the member you heal the least in the group, it makes no sense … Sometimes tanks are also toping HPS chart while doing double healer dps, this is ridiculous and needs to be adressed or nobody will want to play a healer if you are just good for nothing …
As a tank main I feel the complete opposite, and that feeling is shared by most tanks. The healer should be there to take care of the group. There's nothing worse as a tank than feeling like you need babysitting from the healer. Only BDK and VDH heal more than healers because that's how they survive, it has nothing to do with the heals at all.
@@VDHmain Problem is that it doesn't really work that way. Most Tanks still expect healers to keep an eye on them, resulting in you either overhealing the tank just to be sure or never healing the tank when he is reasonably good, but then he makes one mistake and dies and you had no warning and no way to intervene (which is especially bad with dk tanks, one mistake from them and there is no way you can save them in time). So we use omni cd and try to learn all the tank abilities to track potential tank fails. That's just ridculous...
@@JustASpider980 brewmaster get destroyed in high key and you could expel harm and still have a gigaton of stagger or get 7 synced melee right after and your EH is on cooldown . brewmaster need to be watched closely i can't count the number of time and specially in fortified week where they get near instantly deleted at the pull. frankly brew feel like a blood DK with a shitty deathstrike
the problem with retail healing is that you need massive healing approximately every 30 seconds...which isnt particularly hard to do but after doing it for the last 2 tiers it has become redundant and sort of boring. i feel like i spend 75% of my time ramping up for maximum output and it was cool at first watching everyones hp bars shoot up every time but do that a few thousand times and tell me youre still having fun.
Honestly Bring back: Without a healer, everyone dies. Tank included. Without a tank, every gets 1-2 tapped. Without DPS, the healer will run oom/the boss will enrage before it dies. Less 99%-0 attacks outside of specific scripted boss events. People keep talking about how healers don't want to DPS, and then the argument is "You just want to afk 40% of the dungeon". But what those people either were not there to experience, or did not play healers back then, are completely forgetting is that healers DID have to constantly be casting. The difference is that you had to use slower/more efficient heals in order to conserve your mana. So the balance was "the faster you need to heal, the faster the DPS need to kill it and the more CD's the tank should roll, all to make sure it dies before the healer goes oom." Basically: If the tank was dying and the healer was spam casting fast heals, that's a tank problem. If the healer was keeping everyone alive, without spamming expensive heals and the boss enraged, that's a DPS problem. If the DPS was on track to kill it before enrage, and the tank was rotating cooldowns and not taking bonkers damage that forced the healers hand, and the healer ran oom/everyone died, that's the healers problem. And then we have today, where the only reason that you don't just run 5 tanks every dungeon is because there's a timer on M+. Not an enrage, it's not that you won't finish. You just won't get extra rewards.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. I would only add that I wish they would be braver with scaling certain healing spells to be stronger the smaller the group is. They’ve recently done it with Divine Hymn, which solves the problem of it being either too strong in raid or too weak in M+, but there are so many more spells that could benefit from it.
I'm probably more on the 'classic' side of things. I think tanks should, generally speaking, be the ones taking the most punishment and require the most healing. I don't like it when a tank outheals me. There is quite a lot of wiggle room here in terms of boss/encounter design where some fights could require heavy tank healing and some require less. I like the heal-to-health ratio where you aren't able to immediately top somebody off as a healer. But I don't think it should take more than a couple big heals either. There's definitely a sweet spot here where your heals still feel impactful, but you might have to choose who to heal first in situations you're not able to keep everybody topped off. That's definitely fun in my opinion. I like mana regeneration as a way of character progression, always have. Being efficient and managing your mana is something I enjoy, maybe even enjoy the most, when playing a healer.
Resto druid Mana management in raid sucks. Innervate should be reworked to function like Mana tea. Or give resto druid a water shield buff. The base cost of resto druid spell should cost less, specifically for raid.
I personally would rather the key scaling be that the enemies scale their HP more than the damage they do. Makes it more focused on beating the timer instead of you can survive the countless one shots.
As far as M+ goes, no unavoidable mechanics should do more than 75% of someone's HP without a personal popped. I'd prefer they make avoidable mechanics more unforgiving, introduce some better mechanics that healers have to deal with instead of being lazy with crap like bursting and give healers more utility abilities (along with mechanics that necessitate their needs on mobs). I'd be totally fine if every single avoidable mechanic 1 shot people. Wouldn't bother me a bit. But the way it is now it just isn't fun; on top of the fact that they can't seem to get away from having "god comps" because they stink at balancing everything.
I love your healing discussions like this. I prefer cata style healing, it’s just more fun imo and I agree with a lot of the points you made about gear progression. I enjoy retail healing too but definitely prefer cata.
I am exhausted minmaxing my dps as a healer or being completely irrelevant with good players.. I would love to spend my time healing only and ignore the dps side of it. I would rather have talents or items that give my dps more damage or tank survivability. Hopefully things change soon, I miss feeling like a backbone of the group being a healer or tank.
The Holy Paladin rework was so good and the fact people complained about it instead of pushing back against Blizzard and getting them to properly rework every other healer class, instead they ended up fixing nothing about healing/healer gameplay and just nerfing Holy Paladin into what it is now,.Kinda boggles my mind. The biggest missed opportunity of season 2 was when we got a taste of what Blizzard can do with talents and synergies with Holy Paladin and it was pissed away by a bunch of people who failed to realize the chance they had to make the much need changes to other healing spec if they would have pushed. If every healer felt as fun and as powerful as Holy Paladin, no one would have complained, but that wasn't Holy Paladins fault because here we are still talking about how healing needs to change. It did change, imo the Hpal rework brought Hpal into modern WoW and left every other healer in the past, and now we still have the same problems as before. The implantation of Aug is another issue that isn't talked about when discussing healer gameplay. That spec single handedly say the highest dungeon completions in the world jump 3 whole lvls the week it was released.
Specifically reacting to the idea that healers have a lot of downtime in current content has to do with the fact that traditional healing has been outsourced to other ROLES. Tanks used to be the first characters to die in a dungeon. Now they’re literally Unkillable. Healers spent the majority of our time healing the tank. Now we are just there to heal the DPS. Currently many DPS have their own self healing and defensive cooldowns and require less attention from healers. The issue is Blizzard gave away the healing role to tanks and to DPS and now they are scrambling to figure out what healers should be doing. A lot of the community feel that we should be helping with damage, which makes sense. However, for many of us who love healing, the idea of becoming a secondary subpar damage class is just not appealing. Healers used to trade off being weak in single player content game being indispensable in group content. We have transitioned from being a key component of group content to superfluous, which is frustrating because we are now virtually second-class citizens across all wow content. It’s frustrating to watch a blood DK out heal an entire raid of healers. I get that the tank role is arguably one of the most difficult and frustrating out there and while I don’t wanna go back to two hour tank ques, I do think developers should look at reducing some of the sustain that tanks currently possess, in favor of increasing the need for healers to be the primary source of healing in group content.
The fear with removing power from tanks is you might end up with Shadowlands S1. Go ask any tank about that season and they will tell you tanks were miserably weak. Right now tanking feels awesome. If I mess up I need the healers help but if I'm doing my job right I can lead the group through the content efficiently. Tanks already have the responsibility of leading the group which is really easy to fail if you aren't confident. Punishing those who play a role efficiently is not the way. Most tanks don't do this and they require a healer.
Cataclysm healing is actually so fun it’s insane. I remember playing holy Paladin back in cata and quitting the game because I didn’t like not being able to top people’s HP in 1 cast of holy light and having infinite mana like in wrath. I know a lot of other people were in the same boat. It feels like cataclysm was waaaay ahead of its time for MMO healing and as a community we did not appreciate it enough at the time
I beg everyone, don't suggest any kind of mana regen that scales with gear. That was the main reason healing and damage became bursty. Even in cataclysm only the first patch was strategic healing. Later with the good manaregen it became the same bursty pattern as it was in wotlk and it is today. Hp pools should be relalitvely high compared to damage and heals with skill based mana regen and management.
The most fun I've ever had in World of Warcraft, was healing early Cataclysm heroic dungeons. I loved the massive health pools, the slow triage healing utilizing every spell in your toolkit, and rarely topping people off unless you could do it efficiently. And I sorely miss tank healing. I prefer to be constantly healing rather than dpsing and then throwing whack-a-mole spot healing around. It's why, despite most people hating Halls of Infusion, I love it because of the Khajin fight. I love all the constant damage going out. Damage that won't one shot people, but consistent damage that keeps me constantly healing. I think Blizzard is worried more healers will roll dps if healers don't feel powerful by pushing up health bars fast or are able to contribute to dps. Personally, I don't feel very powerful when most of the time my group is topped off, and I just have to throw big healing cooldowns every so often, then it's back to dpsing while the group is topped off again. And these days we have two healing specs that can heal through doing damage, and can probably add more or add more cooldowns like Ancestral Guidance that allow all healers to temporarily dps to heal if that's what some want.
I think a compromise would be the best fix. Allow tanks to keep their agency and survivability, but remove defensives from dps like mages until they’re more in line with classes like hunter and shaman. Tank healing is boring. Also reduce healer cds. Then the damage patterns in dungeons need to change. The game would be so much more fun if the damage was unavoidable pulsing or dot damage. You can press a defensive to reduce the pulse without needing to save it for one shots every 20 seconds. Defensive trading is simply not fun or engaging. It’s a game of chess that many classes lose because blizzard arbitrarily gave some classes more pieces to play with than others.
I started healing in Cata. I honestly don't know how to fix this with scaling difficulty because if folks aren't dying comps aren't going to bring healers. Cata was also before flex raids so everything was really set so it was much easier to tune. There is probably a fix for this, but I'm not entirely sure bliz is actually invested in fixing the problem. I used to view healing as a puzzle. Here is the spread of damage going out, how do I keep folks alive through this? It was also a challenge to myself to pug up and keep some derpy dps alive that was standing in everything, or a tank that wasn't good with their defensives. In retail, I simply can't do those things. If a dps stands in something they just die. Tanks are so beefy that they are self sufficient as long as they know what they are doing. More unavoidable damage with reduced spike damage? But how will that scale at high keys? Or do we flip the other way with more passive healing attached to dps abilities and triage abilities to cover heavy periods of damage? I honestly don't know.
I'd like to see the one-shot mechanics be an avoidable thing and not a defensive cooldown thing. Bring back the skill of being able to avoid damage. Another thing Blizz could consider is making one-shot mechanics a situation of the scaling of M+. Say like 10+ dungeons have the ability to one shot you, but +2 would take 50% of your health and then that scales as you approach +10. Put defensives on long cooldowns and have it so that you have an "oh crap" button in case you made a mental mistake in trying to avoid the damage. Also have it where the healer has a defensive cooldown that they can use on one character at a time on a medium-length cooldown that you have the choice to have a big heal ready or you have the chance to mitigate the damage on the tank. I still think of BC and Legion as the pinnacle of healing. Impactful choices while at the same time having to make intelligent decisions as to how to manage your resources and cooldowns.
I think people who want to heal tanks in the comments are well intentioned but misguided. Healing dps a lot + healing tanks means healers dpsing less, means if the healer is triaging poorly people die more often, means stopping to drink constantly, means slowing the key down. Fights like 3rd boss HOI are way more interesting and allow you to test/flex your skills in a way that basically no other fight or pull does. The problem is the tankiness that dps have way more than it is tanks tankiness. If your tank is allowed to handle themselves basically 100% of the time (as it is now), then the times they are bad will only make you have to heal a bit more rather than make your random +8 a nightmare to heal randomly. Fights wind up being designed with massive 1 shots because dragonflight design gave everyone like twice the defensive capabilities. Never before have keys been based purely around living to time your key as they have this expansion. Your group could all do 300k dps and you will safely time keys in the teens as long as kicks and stops are going out and mitigation is being used properly. And its all off the back of boss design being twisted this way because they cant also push rot on top of 1 shots or youre basically guaranteed to wipe to mana when a big hit is incoming or awkward rot timings way more often. Not to mention that the way incoming damage works on both packs and bosses basically invalidates certain tanks without hyperspecific comps and people communicating, not even talking about world first keys but keys a handful of levels below. Mages have mirror image, alter time, a shield, a group shield, greater invis, ice block, cheat death/ice block+shield reset... like what are we even doing here lmao
Raising player hp and enemy damage with key level seems like a brilliant idea. If dps needs to go up to meet time why shouldnt hps need to increase as well?
Honestly - I don't know how you go to anything else unless you remove M+, and they'd risk so much more anger by doing that than anything else. The only possible way would be to look at M+ as a separate balancing arm of the game like PvP and have abilities scale totally differently inside dungeons. That also is an insane undertaking from a development perspective, which is probably why they're reluctant to do it. M+ is infinitely scaling content. Even minor damage events will eventually become oneshots if you take the content high enough. At a group size of 5, one healer will need to bring enough healing to reverse that, else M+ top groups get capped on what they can progress to very early. Healers getting the power needed to push through health bars bouncing so quickly is why raid mechanics also need to be oneshots because healers in general are pouring out so much healing that when you've got 3-5 of them, everyone's going to be overhealing like crazy.
I really like your idea of scaling HP pools at higher keys. Not sure I've seen anyone suggest that before, but its a cool concept and it would solve the 1-shot problem. It would put more pressure on healers, as you would eventually hit a level where it's the healer's ability to keep people alive that stops you from being able to beat an encounter, but I think that's OK at higher levels. After you past the key level that offers the highest rewards, and you are just playing to complete for ranks, I think Blizzard could get more creative with the design. Its really a different pool of players who only do M+ for gear/vault/crests, and players who do M+ to push their rankings. Why not alter that content a bit for those players?
I fell in love with healing in BWL, love it all the way to SL. That was the breaking point even though it started to fall before that. Now i cant stand it. Cata style healing would be great!
One of the main problem is that this isn't just a dmg number issue. If blizz wants to move to a triage type of healing they gotta redesign HOW the mobs deal dmg. Right now they just do a random burst on DPS and the healer has to reflex heal them just in case another random burst comes out of nowhere to kill them, or DPS just get instantly killed by 2 mobs targetting them at once. But this happens only a couple times per pull, if dmg is reduced, the dps will just take less dmg at that moment and then take no dmg for a while, meaning the job of a healer would be put down healing rain and watch it full people up during the time no dmg goes out. Blizz needs to make mobs throw out a bunch of constant, lower dmg at everyone to keep the healer busy, but mobs dont work like that in any recent dungeon, so they would all need to be redesigned. Is blizz really gonna do that? Or could they just move to a triage healing type and just ignore and never bring back recent dungeons if they don't touch them?
as a tank i'm way more fond of the idea to be limited in pullsize & speed by the healer that has to keep me up - than by the amount of stops i can dish out to prevent oneshot mechanics on random group members. the tank healer miniteam game was way more fun to me than what retail wow expects from tanks. I guess its just that blizzard doesnt want to invest as much in finetuning this things anymore
Healing is so much fun right now, but i only play dps healers like Disc and Mistweaver. Never was into actual healing classes it just never did it for me
Tanks are way too powerful in DF and that has diminished the healer role. Tanks heal as much as a healer and do dps like a dps player, they get 3 roles in one character. Healer role has been diminished to whack affixes, run cooldowns for the few moments when unavoidable dmg overpowers the dps' self healing then add some wet noodle dps. Solution: nerf tank self-sustain, give healers back sole responsibility for health bars, remove all whack-a-mole affixes. Remix shows how this works. You only roll healer to get shorter queue times, your healing spells are not really needed anywhere. You heal to make Ward go boom.
I would prefer Cata style of healing than the current retail one. When Blizzard buffed player HP and mob damage at the start of DF (and at start of S2), I immediately thought it was not right. It made the player's HP ping-pong between 100% and 20% and I had to keep everyone topped for another blast. I though they should have increased the HP pools, reduced our healing and keep the mob damage as it was, so it would take us more time to heal people but the mob damage won't cause immediate threat of dying in 1-2 hits. I would deal less damage as I would have to heal more, but I would feel more like a proper healer. I don't mind occasional big hits as they would be a reason to use our big CDs, but now it feel as if I make a mistake, the group will wipe because I don't have my CDs ready.
Simple fix in retail would be mana regen gems that stack and scale. I’d happily trade some secondary stats for regen. RDruid needs some love in retail right now, but raid healer is being punished because dungeon healing is too strong. Stupid easy problem to fix, but for some reason Blizzard wants it this way.
I have loved healing in my WoW life for years. I did Raid healing all the way to end of Legion and I loved it. But big moments in WoW that I feel hurt the fun of healing: 1. When they removed Spirit for regen and Intellect that also increased Mana 2. When the effect of better gear started to have less of an effect. Gear is really fixed now in retail, not to many options 3. The need for healers to do more than healing, I want to be a healer 4. I hate Atonement as it is now on Disc priest hahaha, I loved smart atonement and Shielding disc priests.
I know being immortal is fun like in the case of DK, but the amount of shielding bear, prot pally, and blood DK have is insane. My bear can run 10s and take barely any damage on huge pulls still because shielding is way too strong.
I feel like Shadowlands was somewhat of a hated addon in general but i miss those days when it comes to Raidhealing, it just felt like i had a bit more time to react and plan ahead which spell makes sense to press... with raid cooldowns having a meaningful impact on the fight and not just being overheal 90% of the time. I didnt push any M+ in Shadowlands so i dont know if it was better then, but even low keys felt more planable and managable tbh... unavoidable oneshots (raids or m+) are okay if they are predictable and maby only appear on sertan bosses where you can plan ahead on how to avoid them but the shier number and stress it causes on healing has made me switch to DPS and Tank classes recently and i was playing heal for all my time in wow up until dragonflight (which was a long time x) )
when i heal i want to heal, i dont want to cast a single dps ability so it should be tuned so that i have no time to do it and abilities that do not "heal while dps"
I'd say its better not to increase player HP with key level but but instead rework mob damage scaling with key level Like in +2 it some abilities will deal damage equal to 10% of hp And in +10 it will be 50 or 70% And it will be hard capped at 90% or smth So you wont die but using your defensives / interrupts / controls will make you safe
Healers, myself included, just want agency over survivability again. Similar to how tanks complain the nanosecond their survivability isn't in total control of their hands. If you play with a meta comp, spriest, mage, aug. It feels like a joke as a healer, most healing checks you don't need to do anything, or if you do need to do something, you need the oomph of the rest of the group to cover your slow spots, and then the only reason people die is them missing their defensive's. Then obviously you get into a bad group and it's frustrating because you simply can't heal through it or they get one shot. Their are low key levels where you can heal through it, but if by chance you have a meta comp in those key levels and they are okay. You might as well zone out and go DPS. It's pointless for you to be there. It feels like you have no agency over anything. Combine that with the last tier feeling like fights were designed to bait out peoples defensives, then you needing to use a mitigation CD when they didn't have a defensive, and it being very CD orientated (have 3~ seconds to heal everyone to full or they die) aka make sure you have a cooldown or two there. Blizzard needs to fix it, it's not fun and I unsubbed from wow a week or two ago, and I have no intention of playing TWW, as a healer, because it doesn't look like that is what they intend to do.
Oneshot = no healer. That's why some of the dungeons and high-end pushers sometime run dungeons without healer, because all they need to do is to kill boss fast enough before everyone dies. M+ is a failure, and it’s what causes the problem. In raids, there aren’t that many one-shots, but M+ has excluded many healer options. Not only do you need spot healing, but you also need to group heal (Some moron also added affixes that healers need to deal with, which is preposterous!). In PUGs, you will also need to tank constant throughput. By design, every healer has their strengths and weaknesses, but because of M+, you are forced to be able to do EVERYTHING, which they simply aren’t designed for. They need to revamp M+ to make it challenging in other ways.
Make heals radiate damage to enemies so that you blast some decent dps for a healer while pumping Hps, even when overhealing. I get that main healers that want to HEAL as their class fantasy don’t want to press dps buttons between damage spikes
The fix is « easy » : nerf tanks self sustain (trade some of it for more DR if you want, but remove at least 50% of self heal and shield), NUKE dps self healing, nowadays every class has a spell or passive to heal them, even historical low sustain class such as rogue. Then keep dmg and hps as it is right now and double hp pool. Done. This is the only way to bring a satisfying feels to healing, remove control from tanks and healer and give it back to healers. As of right now you can do near top end keys with a trashy healer if your dps and tank play perfectly, it shouldn’t be the case.
@@maltezz this is why I’m not asking for a complete comeback to classic tank healing, just something in between, right now you litteraly NEVER heal a tank, even hpal beacons go on DPS it’s nonsensical
We've gotten to this game state as a result of the fact that everyone wants to be self-sufficient. Over time, Tanks have gotten tools to basically be unkillable. And it's the same with DPS. Some have ludicrous amounts of self-healing, some have great defensive cooldowns, some have way too strong passives in their talent trees. And all of these things push the game towards the one-shots. Because otherwise, if you get hit by an avoidable mechanic and you're left with 10% there's no point, right? Either you heal yourself back up or your healer tops you up in 1-2 GCDs. So, yeah, I think it would be better for the long-term health of the game that health bars stay a healer's responsibility. Strip the defensive power creep. Mana management? I HATE that it's active right now. Give us talents that emphasize mana sustain, give us trinkets that give us mana sustain. Give us things we can opt out of later on when we're geared enough, or when we would rather do more burst healing even if it means going OOM faster. Active abilities, CDs, they demand uptime. Passive effects demand you play well all throughout the fight and remain mindful of how and where you're spending your casts and your CDs. And we definitely need Spirit back as a stat. Goes hand in hand with the above. It's just another way to fine tune healers. Another way we can choose between more sustain or more burst. Healers dealing damage? I LOVE it though. There's something great about walking that fine line between keeping people barely alive, not wasting your GCDs overhealing people and instead utilizing them to deal damage. A dead DPS does 0 damage. A dead boss does 0 damage too. On one hand, the devs shouldn't feel pressured to constantly create healing checks just to keep healers engaged. On the other hand, I'd rather spend more time healing BUT! when I don't? I should be allowed to contribute meaningful (and not pitiful, as it stands right now in DF) DPS. Healer damage should be the reward for managing health bars well. Not something that's just mandatory because healing is too bursty and the healing checks are too weak.
I honestly prefer healing to how it is now. It’s more challenging and you need to know when to save your cds. When I played in cata the healing was boring to me just spamming the same spells over and over to top people… it is such a lazy playstyle. The issue I have with current healing is how big of a difference there is between healers… like priests not even having a good form of mobility. I also think they don’t need to have near enough every pack in m+ high keys have a 1 shot ability atleast pull that back a bit.
Maybe I am late was on vacation, but I will say this. Healing feels way to hectic now a days. I miss when tanks were tanks, and healers were more required to heal over how much dps they can do. I love that Disc, Holy Pal, and MW can do dps to provide healing. Which is why when choosing a healer for keys I try to pick one of those 3. As they already do a set amount of DPS as well as providing healing for the group. Tanks should yes be the person taking the most damage in a group and though they provide WAY to much healing for themselves its not so bad in the aspect the healer can provide additional DR on the squishy players. I do not agree that tanks should never have to take a heal ever from a healer in a key or even quite frankly in a raid. Then shifting from M+ to Raid causes me to be quite bored in Raid healing because everything is on a timer and everyone is taking damage at specific times and where in M+ it is so hectic causes raid healing to feel so boring. Just go back to the time when tanks required about 30% of healing from healers, people werent getting 1 shot and healers were actually valuable for their true part of the team and that is for healing. I could care less to see a Holy Priest doing 400k DPS and 143k healing. Id rather see them doing 100k DPS and keeping people alive and having the time to do that.
Imagine it the other way around. I healed in cata and a few more expansions and wanted to take a look at Dragonflight again after a long break. I don't enjoy healing at all anymore. That's why I stopped again.
I don’t like that tanks can out heal you as the healer. It feels bad. They should be mitigating damage not massively healing it Edit: For the people disagreeing I mean from a literal meters standpoint it feels bad.
I'm fine with this, it made groups WAY MORE stable. Healers freezing up when the tank and someone else take dmg, and the healer doesn't have the awareness of realizing if someone has to die it's the dps, not the tank, cuz if the tank dies everyone dies... happened way too often. If the tanks are more self sufficient the group is more solid. But it's true that healers should still be higher than the tank, and that problem comes from the dmg profile of the game where people get bursted once of twice per pull and the healer has to reflex heal them instantly instead of triaging like he said in the video. There should be constant dmg going out on everyone, it should keep the healer busy to heal non stop and almost never dps. Dmg going out should be designed to never randomly kill someone, it should be slow burn that keeps the healer busy just like how mobs slowly die and dps have to keep busy.
They don't outheal you, some tanks just work that way, and besides for most tanks that healing is inflated by shields, which are a fair form of mitigation.
Anything that ends with me having to end every pull in a dungeon drinking while everyone gormlessly stands there with 70% hp is just no, thank you. I like mana management in raids. That's a nice bit of tension. But having to drink in m+ is just miserable. I feel like I'm constantly slowing down the group. I'm the buzzkill who has to go 'no, we wiped because we didn't get out of combat long enough for me to not start this fight at 10% mana'. That's my gut reaction anytime Blizzard starts flirting with making mana management a thing again.
I love healing as of now. I dont want that simple form of healing where you heal People up from 50% hp. I like pressing buttons all the time to keep People at 100% to avoid People dying. Healers now is not OP at all.: which game are you guys playing since you dont spend Time healing? I literally spam heal to 300k hps in trash packs and People still die
Holy paladin in season 2 DF was designed perfectly for the damage patterns of DF. There was spiky damage and frequent group damage, and holy pally had counters for all of that. They should have left holy pally the way it was and modeled other healers after it, but they didn’t. Healing in DF is too spiky. I and many other healers swapped to DPS because it just doesn’t feel good to have to immediately heal everyone to full or they die. I hope they change healing in TWW so it’s more engaging but less stressful - I don’t know what that looks like or how to achieve it, but that’s not my job.
People who complain about tanks being too strong are complete idiots... There's nothing worse than babysitting a sht tank, and making that the core gameplay loop is criminal.
Well it looks like Blizzard is going with the high hp solution as watching TWW alpha vids the average non tank has over 3 million hp while healing numbers haven't gone up much compared to now. I think the problem with retail healing and why the big health bars and "weak" heals isn't liked as opposed to Cata is the lack of mana efficiency choice. I mean, cata has small efficient heals, they do lets say ~8% of max health per cast. But you also have large, less efficient heals that do ~20+% of max health per cast, IF you feel it's necessary to "save" someone. Retail doesnt' seem to have this anymore, or it's simply not that big of a difference, at least in M+. For example, my Hpal's standard heal is flash of light, due to infusion making it mana free, and holy light is pretty much never cast outside the 2 with of hand of divinity. The standard M+ holy priest talent setup just uses flash heal as their "normal" heal, and mostly ignores heal. I don't think I will like it if my big, "high hps" spot heal did ~3-4% of an average dps's max hp. Cata gives the best of both worlds. You CAN "save" people, but you know it's going to come at a hefty price; it lets you feel powerful, yet very limited at the same time. You can handle a few screwups, but if the whole group is consistently messing up you'll just go oom extremely fast. Basically I think they need to do a re-tuning on retail looking at the "these are my standard hps, efficient tools" and "these are my burst hps, inefficient or cooldown based tools that I definitely can't use all the time". That said, given M+'s infinite scaling, I don't know if they can ever make it feel "good" at the high end without some new mechanics in the way damage is dealt. The nature of M+ is people simply climb higher and higher until the weakest of the 3 roles becomes the breaking point. In SL, it was tanks in S1, then dps/timer later on, and in DF, it's been healing/surviving. Even with large health pools, if healing is still the limiting factor a lot of people are just going to complain that their heals need a buff when the group rots do death instead of getting one shot. So I think we HAVE to go back to the timer being what's stopping the clear, given an adequate skilled healer. I think there needs to be more consistent, unavoidable light/medium damage from dungeon trash, so that healers still spend the majority of their time... you know, healing. And being a better healer (through gear or talents etc), means you actually have more time to dps, rather than a repeat of SL where healing potential was almost not considered and it was just "gear/spec for max dps 100%". As for spirit, I'm not a big fan of it. Scaling mana potential that is. Eventually the system sort of breaks down later in the expansion, while feeling extremely painful at the start. Even cata failed at this, so they removed mana pool scaling from int in MoP, and later removed spirit altogether as the same thing kept happening. In fact, scaling mana potential is basically why my DF hpal has zero mana concerns while my druid and shaman definitely feel it. If my holy shock had ~20% crit instead of 50%+ like he does in season 4 gear, I'd definitely have more mana concerns. I'd rather things have a more consistent, usable baseline from start to finish.
I don’t like this “one shot healing” cause it removes the fun from healing. The way healing is now you have to plan ahead for like 20 Sec to always have an answer. You do not longer react to the game. So you have to play with 10 Addons that tell you what will happen next. I think it is much more fun to react to damage after it happened. But this is almost impossible right now.
Yes, we need a healing and tank soft reset and nerf on defensives for dps. I think they need to bring spirit stat back; it was a fun stat, more fun than verse. It was a stat where the player can decide what to use not what sims the best for max hps. I think both styles are good. Expansions should start like cata and end like retail, with stat scaling. Another option is for healing to always heal a fixed health % then add on secondaries. Have gear focus more on mana efficiency with spirit in lieu of intellect.
I think being able to top fast feels very good, and healer damage being a real thing also brings out a lot of skill expression. With that being said, the state of dungeons this season does NOT feel good to heal. I see many reasons, but the defensive creep seems like a likely culprit. The only environment where these keys feel to good to heal are 17+ with a premade group in VC. Which is not obtainable to accessible to many players. A game should not be designed around the top players nor should it be only fun for premades.
I Don't Like One-Shot Land I have been playing healer since BC, and at one time, you watched your mana, an watched the party's health and did healing as needed. If the party was taking a pounding, you had time to determine the right amount and type(s) of healing that were needed and things progressed. Did you wipe sometimes? Sure, but one-hit kills were very, very rare. Now, in current retail, you have group members, and yourself, get one-hit wonders a lot of the time. So, you can watch a party member get hit, and there is NO chance that you can do anything about their death. It really makes me wonder if WOW is going to need or want healers, or tanks for that matter, in the future, or if we will all just be different slants on how DPS works. In short, I think that "old healing" was more about strategy (mind you mana, and cast the right mix of healing for the events going on), and current retail is very tactical, (keep everyone at 100%, DPS all the time, and know that some members will be one-shot at random).
I want to do damage as a healer and I want to be able to heal and top people. I main holy paladin. I like the idea of beaing a paladin, dealing damage and healing is just a core part of the concept of being a paladin. HPaladin does the least amount of damage RN. It does not feel rewarding to spend holy power on either damage or healing, it feels lackluster. I have seen people get oneshot but mainly because they won't use their deffensive CDs or pots. and yes, the constant jumping of HPs are annoying for sure. But I think modern day healing has much bigger problems.
The only reason a key should not be timed is dps. One shot mechanics should not happen unless you utterly fail a mechanic. Health of the mobs needs to be higher per key level and the damage they do shouldn’t scale the same. I know healers will hate this but healing in wow and ffxiv I never look at my healing numbers for my parse only my damage. And healer damage needs to be crazy buffed like it is in ffxiv.
As an average holy priest player (around 2,7k rating each DF season), I think healing was fun in Dragonflight. I loved the worm fight in season 2. It was hard and people gave me props after the fight. Preasure on the healer is important for me. It would be boring otherwise. I need the tension. So Shadowlands approach with less healing checks was worse in my opinion. A bit of mana management is good, but not to much please. I like it how it is now.
I'm with you 100% I've been thinking the same thing. I hate the rush to bounce healthbars in retail. And I like the idea of having mana management play more of a role again. Every tier/season they try to change up our healing with reworks or different tiers. But letting them do it via changing how much mana we have to play with from ilvl so we can afford more expensive rotations also gives them another knob to tweak to achieve that. I enjoy having to be smart about my heals in M+ and raids, not the current retail case of where it's all about sniping healing.
I think if tanks required a ton of healing while also the group needs to topped 100% of the time because a one-shot can happen is going to make healing that much more challenging. I could see this deterring even more people from playing healer. As a healer main, if I'm doing a key in the 8-10 range and I have the babysit the tank, dps will be dying somewhere in the key. Maybe I'm just bad but I feel like if I had to focus more on the tank along with the rest of the group in keys I would for sure not have anytime to dps either lol.
Mana management is the worst part of being a healer IMO. They should just remove mana all together and make every healer play on procs and/or combos. If you're good at using procs and setting up combos you do big healing if you're not you do small healing. Would make the gameplay way more interesting and you'd be able to tell a good healer from a bad one really quickly.
As for mana... it's fine to manage mana in combat, but if the game requires everyone to stop playing so we can watch the healer drink... this isn't 1999 anymore, that's the year where that kind of gameplay became obsolete, yes, before WoW came out, drinking has always sucked ass. Make healer's mana regen super fast naturally out of combat if you want it to be a real resource to watch for in combat.
I started the game as a druid healer in 2005. Completed all high-end content. Played until DF. Im done man. Now playing as dps and not planning to go back. The responsibilities Devs and community put on tanks' and healers' shoulders are stresfull rather than fun. Or im getting old. I dont know.
There is a very easy way to fix the unavoidable one-shot mechanics. Make the mob/boss abilities do damage based on player % health instead of based on a flat number. If an ability always does 90% of your health, you will never get 1-shot by an ability. If you want to make it so there's an urgency to heal after that hit, add a damage over time debuff to it.
Yeah, it was also the time where absorb healing was the meta in raids and you have double disc + double holy paladin layering absorbs on everyone so nobody ever drops below 50% every time there's a raid mechanic, and this continued all the way through MoP and a good part of WoD. The best disc priests were also able to solo heal 10 man raids, btw. Great for the disc/holy pally, absolute dogshit experience for every other healer.
Honestly just make healers do a ton of dps (like 70% of what actual dps classes do) and/or give them more stops, stuns so that they can actually have some impact on the outcome of the key. Cus right now (I am doing 18s and trying 19s with pugs) i feel like i can just /follow someone between two hps checks. I can not do any MEANINGFUL dps, my sunfire + tome does like half of my overall, which is just aoe padding that makes the dungeon like 2 seconds faster. And even if i choose to go for more cc, typhoon doesn't work on half the mobs and skull bash is the shittiest ability in this game, imagine spending a gcd (realistically it is closer to 2 gcds since you need to be prepared to use it) to then die to some swirly on the floor just because your character was 0.1 inch away from the target you kicking and it charges thru all the stuff there is on the ground.
I mostly tank M+, around 3k VDH and PPal, and in my opinion nothing feels worse than having to rely on the healer to survive. It randomizes the dungeon way too much since you are pretty much forced to assess the healer before deciding on a route. It makes gathering much more difficult since you need to be healed and healer rips aggro during the gather if they heal too much. It also creates a situation where healers with sub-par ST healing become F-tier.
I liked to heal in Classic/TBC/WotLK more because it felt strategic, item upgrades to power connection felt better and there was room to breath to fully enjoy the process. I decided who to heal and how to heal. I am sitting in the space shuttle cockpit, pressing the right buttons in the right sequence in the right moment. Modern healing doesnt feel as strategic. I basically mash healing buttons quickly to keep everyone alive and press CDs when needed. Item upgrades feel less impactful cause of infinite scaling, there is also no spirit/mp5/mana agency. Im sitting in a bicycle and keep pedaling to keep my party alive. There is little room to breath and enjoy the process. I still enjoy healer job, but oldschool healing felt way more refined and cool.
@@motherpigeon1582 its not that many, there is a reason healing got a bad rep untill they changed it to what it is now. it was giga boring atleast up untill cata.
@@maltezz It is that many and they have to go back and recreate classic, it is not up to debate as we have data. As for healing I would say retail has is wrong, most of the times you dps because healing is not relevant and healer SHOULD focus on HEALING as spec suggests.
@@motherpigeon1582 well i still feel my healing is relevant when i do +10? i mean there is big dmg on every trash pack that most pug dpsers cant avoid or outheal. and on tyr bosses there are healing checks on every other boss.
Personally, I think that in terms of M+, the healing that you must do should be more about what mobs you're pulling more so the key scaling doesn't dominate so much. Key levels should be about changes in strategies in order to time the keys. Healers are dependent on DPS and tanks having good value in their defensive usage. That means that healer's jobs are hard reliant on cooperation. That might seem fine on paper but since I also tank, I can see how ridiculous that can be because when I tank, I'm not seeing that same cooperation needed for aggro management. The cooperation has move more towards a team effort to manage stops. The pull management outside pugs is a team thing. Tank survivability is a skill issue. For healers, fun is about what I call t3 - time to top. If this is too quick, you'll reach a key level where people drop dead no matter what. If it's too slow, it's all about how you manage the number of GCDs required to keep people alive. That's not compatible with the damage scaling in keys. As keys go higher, there needs to be an exaggeration on damage patterns, not raw numbers. For example, dots can last longer. Heal absorbs can spread. People can get stunned instead of just dying. But what I'm describing is more akin to affixes and the discussion around that would reject my suggestion. For healers in future, I would hope that there's less focus on raw healing so other interesting choices can be added. No joke, I think that the focus on raw healing will make it an easier choice to saddle healers with having to do the undesirable stuff since you're contributing less and less to the overall speed of the key because in truth, you're not playing the same game as your team otherwise. In raids, there needs to be further reduction on focus of healer CDs. I don't miss being a healing officer because I was more playing excel than the game. I think that healing CDs, when relied upon, aren't an interesting decision making process. They become tetris pieces and so there's only so many configurations that are valid because you are for sure aren't holding them very long. There needs to be more moment to moment decision making beyond dealing with the ever present rot damage. It was nice to see more things like dispels and heal absorbs so I think less ambient but still pervasive things to deal with would be nice.
Healing was at its peek in cata in my opinion. Not to hard but not to easy but giga rewarding for good players. im in a 100-150 guild and DF was the first xpac i rerolled to dd (paladin) cuz healing is not fun anymore...
Would love healing to back to when you triage the group or raid. and tanks could actually die if not healed. I hate the current META... one shot mechanics should be rare really rare.
so on the tank healing stuff i think its more fun for both the healer and tank when its minmunly needed cos it opens up some damage globles for healers and tanks get to feel strong imo
Personally, as a tank, I don't feel like I have any skill expression when my life is in a healers hands and not my own. When I do heal, which is rare, I like not having to think about the tank because healing everyone else is already stressful enough. It would feel unmanageable if I was trying to put every other global into a tank.
tank healing is fine imo i prefer to only worry about the tank when there is some tank buster or if the guy is doing a giga pull with dangerous mobs. nothing feel worst when you tank to being limited because you get a bad healer. if everyone had the armor of a war tank and the hp pool of a druid and they take slow but sustained damage yeah it could interesting but the amount of variable in mitigation for tanks is enormous. brewmaster get deleted with synchronized melee. DK get randomly one shot before they could even do a death strike. paladin can get deleted if they step one foot out of consecration etc but atm you can 'work around' and prepare around those weekeness because it's very predictable and you can continue to take care of the group. we should remember SL s1 was a 'heal the tank' meta and we got instead 'kite to the end of the map or you ded' meta instead and NOBODY liked that
I hope they dont go down the road that ESO did. They gave everyone such good defensives and self heals that you dont need healers in that game except for the most very difficult content. As a healer i feel left out in eso and its sad. I dont want that to happen here.
The reason why a making healing more extended over time is a bad idea - due to a existing M+ mechanics. Its the same argumentation as for tanks survivability - because most parties, especially with pugs are not dodging 100% of avoidable mechanics. And if now tanks are not affected by such mechanics mostly and can literally solo tank everything, meanwhile the rest of group may take a huge damage and healer spam heals to level out mistakes made by his party. I tested out how already healing is filling on a resto druid in TWW beta and I would say, I'm not happy with this at all. Group of random pugs ignoring all the mechanics and you unable to do anything about it. Off-course I understand, that M+ should not be designed to easily ignore all the mechanics. But experienced healer should at least be able to deal with group mistakes by cost of not efficient mana usage. Lets say your group pulled extra pack and you need to regen mana after pull and this is a pay for a group - time needed to close entire dungeon. But now you just see players with 7-8M HP and your fastest spot heal is healing like 150k. Its completely bad experience for healer. Its like a joke that warlock healstone is healing 25% HP can heal 2kk instantly, but I should spam and cast like 5-10 Regrowths to heal the same amount. Any amount of damage group is taking should be healable in cost of spending mana inefficiently. And for higher keys this inefficiency should not let complete key at time. Its a two opposite sides of a player community: top/good M+ teams need less work from a healer. But PUGs / low key players are constantly ignoring mechanics and do mistakes and need much more healing. If you play a healer and you want to heal more - invite not experienced PUGs to your party and you have what to do. But no, instead high M+ players are sitting in LFR for a hour and trying to setup dream party. And then they are not happy that waiting is too long and healing is too boring. When all party doing their work ideally - off-course they need a minimal healing. And its how it should be. Just play with random people and you always have unexpected situations and healing will be less predictable and boring.
