Heated Debate Between Infinite Banker and Dave Ramsey 

We have met the fool. A fool and his money are soon......

😂😂

The mRNA Covid vaccines were the same case sadly, but many are still doubling down that it’s "safe and effective" 😂

​@NWO_Media I agree total scam and waste of money.

@@NWO_Media Get a job 😂

I was reading the comments just so I could see how many comments it would take before someone said this. This guy refuses to admit that he was wrong in his assumptions.

Yep!

Perfectly said. It's a good thing to be humble sometimes and take good advice. An open mind is a good thing.

An* ego

yep...collecting dust like a museum display...i got rid of my whole life a long long time ago... the guy wants to do right by his family and believes in the goodness of people (a righteous and noble man but insurance salespersons take advantage of that )... see that reaction a lot from victims of fiduciary crimes...

Made me literally laugh out loud!

Savage

Perhaps the best line ever delivered by Dave Ramsey.

The question that needs to be answered is: can you borrow against your stocks in a mutual fund? I'm pretty sure you can. And if that's the case, this whole life insurance is useless.

Also, I think he was saying if he paid 5k for 13 years (65k), at retirement, the son would have at least 10 million.

@@seangeary7100 most wealth management companies will allow you to set up a line of credit against your securities.

So can you list some of the things you disagree with Dave on? I know one thing I do when he always tells people to put money in an index or mutual fund for the long term, 20 years plus, I think everybody should be picking single stocks, a handful of them to diversify slightly, but I hate when he always says to always pick mutual or index funds, so many people end up picking the same ones And create a massive amount of redundancy, cutting their prophets off at the knees, actually cutting their profits off at the neck lol

Talk about the risk.... the kid could lose all of his investment with mutual funds

Yep. If he was sure it was a good deal why would he get pissed off if someone disagrees.

Yeah seems about right. Exactly why I thought he was angry, because the messenger told him he was swindled.

He REALLY likes the idea that there is a way to borrow against the policy.

Some people are never wrong even when they’re wrong.

Jim is someone who DIDN'T do the math. But yeah Dave's 100% right. $5700/year at 8% ROI works out to about $122K around age 13. If he added ZERO to it, and it continued growing at about 8%, the son would have $25.6M when he's 80. Now the S&P 500 has historically netted about 10% ROI since its inception in 1928. Inflation has been about 3% during the same term. If we recalculate based on a 7% ROI (assuming you made 7% after inflation, which is historically about what it works out to), his son will have about $115K when he's 13, $375K when he's 30, $1.5M when he's 50, and roughly $12.3M when he's 80. And yes, his son can legally borrow against the stock portfolio if it's in his son's name and his son is foolish enough to do that. About the only risk is SIPC insurance (which insures the investment account against the brokerage's failure) but that's quite minor really, as it's roughly 3 to 4 decades before that's likely an issue.

😂😂😂 perfect for him indeed. He's not getting it so he doesn't understand what he's losing. Let him be content with 25 million from one source and 2 million from the other (whole life) instead of 50 million and kid knowing never to borrow to build wealth.

Dave put on a master class in how to win an argument in this call. Starting with the “I’m sorry” comment, which was absolutely hilarious and effectively threw the guy off his game from the get go. From there he ran circles around the caller and kept every one of his arguments shut down

He should have capped it off with “let the life insurance company invest those premiums and get the investment returns in the mutual funds you aren’t understanding. Investment returns is one of the factors that helps raise the money to pay claims.”

The quote is “ Don’t argue with an idiot they will beat you with experience.”

It definitely had a “bless your heart” vibe to it. Lol

Some people will defend their poor decisons at all costs... Its the american way!

😂

After this call Jim rushed out and bought shares in a buggy whip business before he mailed in his ballot for a second term of Joe Biden.

😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😊😅😅😅😅😅

damn,but well said @@islandhopper100

Bernie Madoff's victims continued to invest with him even as people proved mathematically that his returns were impossible. And these weren't all small time investors, some of them were ordinary people (many of whom got fucked after the scam fell apart), but Madoff scammed literal European royalty and multibillionaires with his scheme.

New info = let me defend my bad opinion

Naw dude it's ok to hold to your position and just slam the other one

You’re taking about Dave? 😂

@@darbyohara no the caller....

2B Vina RF Drew LF Pujols CF Edmonds 3B Rolen 1B Martinez SS Renteria C Matheny P Williams

I learned better this way too😂

For a proper debate both sides have to understand their own argument. We didn't have that here.

But will you

This argument is mindless. By the same token, you can say that it's better to invest all of your dollars than to ever have a savings account. Accumulation and distribution are two different things. Different financial instruments are useful for respective time horizons and risk circumstances. Whole life insurance IS NOT competing with investments. Dave's magical math (claiming people will get 12% returns on investments) is what he uses to try to make it appear that he knows what he's talking about. He doesn't get financial planning at all.

@@maliqmatthew1009 The guy on the phone is talking about a 2 million or 2.6 million payout. If you invest 5000 a year for 13 years, at 8% (not 12) you end up with 107k ish at the end of that. Then you can pay zero dollars and just let it keep earning 8% until he's 80 and that's 18 million dollars. Not 2.6. And he can actually use that moeny while he's still alive. If whole life dealers don't want to compete with investments, then they should stop selling it in terms of getting dividends and borrowing against it.

Said by an insurance seller 😂​@@maliqmatthew1009

​@@maliqmatthew1009 even with that, he could still buy term and not risk losing his money at death. Is the higher premiums up front + the risk down the road worth it?

Imagine that

I know 😣

I could do the humor but I don't have financial Knowledge

Hopefully one of them will step up for it. I could see Jade do it

TRUTH. We're lucky to have Ramsey.

Dave is a one trick pony. He wrote a book that can be summarized into 7 bullet points.

I agree. He is trying so hard to debate Dave and is failing miserably.

@@vickieclark5931 to be fair, even if Jim was right (which he absolutely wasn’t), winning a heated debate against Dave Ramsey is a pretty freaking tall order. Dude’s show is a 30 year master class in winning financial arguments.

Yes, but he didn't learn there's a higher risk of mutual funds which were down 21 %last year... And I know over the course of ex amount of years The stock markets up 12% etc or at least the the piece of paper your broker gave you said it was.

​@@jamesjazzy8040Better to use your money to make a business that gets 100x returns every year.

The simple solution is to dump the policy and set up a custodial investment account. My husband's grandmother did that for the grandchildren: At eighteen, the kids had a choice to accept a payout or establish an account.

yeah he was surprisingly patient this time lol. Its great entertainment

@@mannyjeanpierre4062 right? We need more of that lol.

Yeah Ramsey is a complete idiot, detatched from reality

gold is worthless.

He was into it lol

Agreed😂😂😂

Precisely. I was funny, initially. But, then just sad that he could not see the error in his way and logic.

LOL. I love it. You're so right.

He gave him time because he knew it would make good content lol

He knows it's good content

Dave's interest rate is wrong before putting into the calculator. No evidence of his 11%, 12%.

It all depends on your goals. WL/IUL isn’t for everyone, and if you can’t afford to do it the right way, then definitely stay clear. Term and invest is cool too, but let me ask. What happens when you outlive your term?

@@Iamjoeycross you should be able to self insure from your investments by the time your 20-30 year term insurance policy is up. You invest the difference and have better returns and complete flexibility. There’s no reason to ever have one of these policies.

Your investment compounds over time and allows you to self insure. You don’t need life insurance if you have 25 million in funds available.

@@lucaspm98 I agree. That’s one way to play the game. How about I max out ROTH 401k, ROTH IRA, own real estate, but then also front load my WL policy, and use the cash value to invest into more real estate, loans out to others to make even more returns on ALL my money, while picking up a lifetime death benefit and can use the cash value to live off while alive? I get most ppl don’t have enough discretionary income to do all this. But that’s why there’s different game plans for different types of people. Thoughts?

@@Iamjoeycross pray you never have to get into a scenario where the Govt requires you to "spend down" your assets to qualify for benefits, because a whole life policy counts as a financial asset. . I know this because my father in law had a whole life policy, and sadly he was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers at age 55. He had to go into a Medicaid nursing home once my mother in law couldn't care for him any longer at home. They had to spend down his entire policy to qualify for Medicaid, but (sadly?) he died sooner rather than later, so by the time they had spent down 95% of his cash value in the whole life policy, they didn't even end up needing the Medicaid home after all. My mother in law received only about 5% of his benefit: a pittance. By contrast, if he'd had a $1 million term life policy, that would NOT have counted as a financial asset, he would have qualified for the Medicaid help immediately, and when he passed my mother in law could have received $1 million. . So there's that.... don't know if you were aware of this little "gotcha" or not.

I LOVED watching Jade's expressions during that call. 😂😂

She has no idea what they are talking about.

Roofers don’t frame roofs, framers do

​@@brianm1603pretty sure she does

@@Witness3721hahahaha!!

S Tier southern passive aggression. 😂

He blessed his little heart. 🤣

he is a boomer. he cannot comprehend not being “alpha” because he thinks his shit doesn’t stink. He’s a loser with rich connections and banker friends that paid for his expensive mistakes

pompous

He should've called Dave a liar though, especially when Dave tried to say banks don't use this. That's an outright lie.

😂😂😂😂😂

It was uncalled for

That was a beautiful example of throwing off your opponent and asserting dominance while disguising it with politeness.

It was sincere. I felt for the guy who invested in a whole life insurance scheme.

😂😂😂😂

He isn't an expert in finance. There is no belief involved. He has no expertise in insurance, nor in investment. He is nowhere near qualified to discuss the topic.

​@@maliqmatthew1009he basically is an expert

He knows next to nothing about this stuff. He just sounds smart to people who also don't know about it.

@@maliqmatthew1009 He knows that insurance isn't an investment. This should be common sense. The purpose of insurance is risk mitigation, if an insurance agent is trying to sell you an insurance contract using any other justification, they are trying to fuck you over.

Oh he knows he got schooled, he just doesn't want to admit it. Too much emotional investment in the deal. Give it time.

No he didn't. Dave is clueless about insurance and keeps trying to speak with authority he doesn't have.

So you find that funny? That a young man was trying to something "kind" for his son, and used a vehicle to help him? Really "schooled". Sure there's better options but the Dad's intent, is what I took away from it, and give him grace.

​@@maliqmatthew1009as you reinvest the dividends, you're buying more insurance. What don't you understand about that?

@@frankvonfrauner There is nothing I don't understand about it. I do this for a living. The fact that the death benefit grows is why the cash value grows as it does and why telling people they only get the face amount when they die is ridiculous. Said face amount is going to be several times the original amount if they live a long life!

Yeah i think buffet said something similar about investing that if you get angry/emotionall about your investment then you dont see the whole picture.

It is really a scam though even though a person will get less with a whole life-death benefit? If someone isn't healthy, they won't qualify for a term policy since depending on the policy you have to renew 1, 5 or 10 years. Some people want to feel more secure than making the most money.

He’s pissed because he probably sells whole life (along with bought for his kid) and NEEDS Dave to be wrong to validate the lies he’s told himself in order to clear his conscience about selling the product to others.

​@@nodsib I had friends who sold whole life policies back in the day. I questioned the terms and noped out.

@@nodsib Possible... but term may not be the best option for everyone especially if someone isn't healthy. Dave and Suze Orman both despise whole insurance which is understandable.

TikTok is the site of all bad information.

This caller isn't the scam artist. He's the guy that got scammed and is trying (hoping) to justify his bad purchase.

Not just on tictoc sometimes under Dave Ramsey comments scammers come try bride people

Yup.

😂😂😂😂

What knowledge? Dave is ignorant about life insurance and not much better about investing.

@@maliqmatthew1009 Cool, will you please call in and teach him how to not have hundreds of millions of dollars? I'd like to hear what a better alternative is from someone like you who obviously has blown him out of the water! Thanks in advance

@@johnathanbolin5539 Why would an advisor waste time calling an entertainer who doesn't care to learn what he's talking about? If you think being wealthy is a substitute for understanding, go ahead and invest 100% equities and withdraw 8% per year. Enjoy taking advice from someone who has never managed anyone's retirement, even his own, since you think expertise doesn't matter.

And he doesn’t sound too bright. Wondering where he got the 70K from, probably his grandad’s oil well lol.

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😂😂

I think it’s worse than that. He probably sells whole life, and bought it for his kid, and needs it to be a good investment not just for his kid later but his income now

Lol what? You have to see how his policy is structured before you know if it was a bad decision or not.

@@multimeter2859 Whole life? Often a 5.5% MER. Oh sure, they reduce it to 1% on bad years, but come on. In a 0.1% MER ETF it's going to grow a lot faster.

​@@multimeter2859it was a bad decision

@@multimeter2859 No, you don't have to see how it's structured. If he has an Option 2 Death Benefit (where they get the cash value), they are grossly overpaying for insurance. If they have Option 1, they don't get the cash value as part of the Death Benefit.

The craziest part about people who believe in infinite banking is that they pay interest to a company to borrow their own money. They say, "I aM mY oWn BaNk" even though they are paying interest to a company to borrow their own money.

@@kevinmoore6609 - Exactly. I guess they argue, "well I can never get denied a loan." Yea...but if you just had the money then you wouldn't need a loan to begin with...

There's a sucker born every day 😂

@@kevinmoore6609 You would rather pay interest to banks and creditors?

@vangustia yes, because it wouldn't require me to pay years worth of points and fee while being locked into a large monthly premium like people who git scammed into buying whole life type insurances.

He probably fell for the hard sell and does not want to lose the "benefits of the policy."

Who Dave?

This is what it’s like talking to a Christian about religion..

The first step to building wealth is figuring out your goaIs and risk toIerance - either on your own or with the heIp of a financiaI pIanner, and foIIowing through with an inteIIigent pIan, you wiII gain financiaI growth over the years and enjoy the benefits of managing your money.

I am fortunate I made productive decisions that changed my finances through my financiaI planner. Got my house in Feb, and hoping to retire soon.

hints if you don't mind.

*Whitney Kay Stacy*

found her online, l’m amazed to partake on this, lt has rekindled the fire to my goals.

Actually, it kind of sucks to discover that one's parents have invested money into a vehicle that offers little to no return or, worse, cost double the face or payout value to inherit. 😩

Dave didn't do the calculation. It is actually over a hundred million that it would be worth if invested for that long.

The insurance company made a mint of this dude and many others like him.

@@user-zj4mq1jy2l Dave also assumed 88 years and 11% interest. If we assume retirement at 60 and 10% interest, it will be 27 million by the time the kid is 60.

Which means he understood his position that he won't admit. So for him he us going to die trying. He knew there was no way he could make him understand Dave is smart he is just making crazy content and enjoys what he does every single day.

Dave has no understanding of investing whatsoever. The kinds of portfolios he recommends are literally violations of fiduciary standard because of over-exposure to risk -- we cannot recommend such an allocation to clients. He also doesn't understand returns, which is why he has listeners thinking they'll get 12% returns on their investments per year and can draw 8% per year.

Except that he didn't. The caller didn't have the language for pointing out the ignorance that Ramsey was espousing.

@@maliqmatthew1009you got a few whole life policies?

Lol says the salesman

@admiralmurat2777 I'm a financial advisor, not a salesman. That you're ignorant of the difference is embarrassing for you.

@Joe-ir5yy I do math both basic and complex. I also understand the difference between accumulation and distribution, which you apparently do not. I also understand the various risks that retirees must navigate -- again, apparently, you do not. Investment recommendations are about risks we suggest our clients should assume. Insurance recommendations are about risks we suggest that our clients should transfer. It is that very ability to transfer risk that enables clients to assume others more aggressively. If Ramsey actually did understand investment or retirement planning, he'd educate his followers on asset allocation in a sensible way rather than insisting foolishly that 100% equities is the way to go. Once educated that 100% equities is senselessly risky and they would need safe dollars to buffer against down markets when they are liquidating assets rather than accumulating, they would then get the concept of alternative ways of growing safe dollars and understand why accumulated value from a policy is one such path. No one sounds knowledgeable when they say "But if you put that money over there instead, your returns would be higher!" They sound like they have no understanding of time horizons, risk mitigation, or how, as Dr. Wade Pfau often says, descending the mountain is a much different challenge than climbing it in the first place. Imagine, for example, saying that people should never have emergency accounts because the dollars in there would grow far better over time if invested. You get why it makes sense to accept the tradeoff of less long-term gain in order to have assuredness for your short-term needs, right? So why do you not get the value of having an asset that also isn't market-correlated and guaranteed to grow over time no matter what as a complement to market assets that can rise or fall and would otherwise need to be drawn on regardless of what the market is doing? Learn real financial planning, guy. You can't just pretend that stocks will always be up and expect nonsensical claims such as 12% annual returns and safe 8% withdrawal rates to ring true. They don't. That's why we grow safe dollars -- because we live in reality.

first clue he's cuckoo when he's repeating 1 years old, lol.

Lol

Lol same

"Language defines the man." 😂😂

Agreed. Personal Finance 101 should be a required HS course for everyone.

@@bl2528 It is a course available. We took it for the finance requirement for graduation. His program was great.

It’s actually in a lot of schools

Our school has it. My daughter took his course in 9th grade. Schools in the south are catching on to your point.

Schools can't do something that helpful, they are too invested in brainwashing children into Woke perverted lifestyles and BS Climate change nonsense.

For the rest of us, at least

Agreed!

Miseducational. Anyone talking about "losing" the cash value speaks idiocy.

Access to good Information is what people need to progress financially in life, Here's one and I'm grateful.

💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩

Love it

I liked how that disarmed the caller. 😂

Same. And then he said it again!

Don't be ignorant. Dave tells you to invest in retirement plans & stock market, banks & investment firms have buildings even bigger.

@@ronaldsneller1989 Ronald, how many millionaires have you created?

​@@michaelgerhardt7130What does making others millionaires have to do with anything? You can have a basic understanding of how finances work without making other people wealthy.

What brick & mortar bank is giving 4%? 😂😂😂😂l

The simple fact is that an insurance policy pays out the face value, whether term or whole life. The difference is that term has an end date and most insureds do not pay out more than the face value. Whole life is endless and unless and insured does not die before the face value is paid, they will be paying excess for the privilege of getting the payout. Any funds paid in excess of the face value go right to the insurer, with no interest paid to the insured.

He's not. Dave doesn't know what he's talking about.

11-12% is guaranteed for life? Investments contain risk and you could lose money. With life insurance even if you get a smaller roi it's guaranteed. Not even Dave knows what will happen in the stock market the next10 - 20 - 30 years. Not advocating for either. Just making an observation.

there's a reason they can guarantee that. because they know the stock market is going to do much better than what they are providing. especially over 80 years!

Yup. And if it goes belly up they go bankrupt and you lose out anyways. Will never do whole life or anything similar. Keep insurance and investments separate!

​@@roadrunner40stop it the facts are offending him

Talked over him yes.

The dude didnt listen

Nah.. the guy already jumped. He just wanted Dave to validate that his swan dive was the right decision.

@@therichbuddha3277 - Did you actually follow the conversation? The caller doesn't understand the product he bought. Don't blame Dave for having to repeatedly correct his lack of basic finance knowledge.

Um, no. The sad part is, in spite of Dave's best effort, the guy is still there and the pigeons are pecking at his ankles. You could put the proverbial WHITE BOARD up for this guy, spend a half hour explaining everything to him with the big bold sharpie, and he'd still argue. Some people - you just have to let go. LOL.

I was looking for someone who really willing to do the Math as I feel like it have to be more than 100 Millions because of the magic of compound interest. Even Dave have missed by 10x 😅, which is rare. This guy think he made a better choice if his son lives to 88 years to increase the insignificant half million policy value to 2.5 millions but in reality that made his choice even more stupid. The only chance that it is a smart choice is that his son die right now, that is why Dave said “I am sorry!” 0:42

PUAs are not ANY PART of the cv.

@@astroman30 paid up additions all have a cash component and a death component, just like the original policy does. That’s why people who buy these whole life policies with the PUA rider see their cash growing. The death benefit is also increasing.

@@panchodelaverga8929But, as Dave just explained in the video, your beneficiaries do not receive the cash value. It's kept by the insurance company. Scam.

He may have had a best friend or family member talk him into that policy. 😮

The products are marketed as something for the wisest of people to break out of the status quo and be exceptionally shrewd. The sales pitch takes advantage of people who are flattered easily, and want to feel like they've done something smarter than all the dumb schmucks out there. The underlying products have been around for years with lots of sales people trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to explain & sell. Eventually they patched together the 'Infinite Banking' & 'Be Your Own Bank' sales pitch as one way to sell the flawed complex products.

He did not explain anything.

He didnt want to listen. Hes already invested

He is in denial because he has invested so much into this and Dave basically crushed his logic

The guy got it, he just didn't want to admit it. If you listen to the call, there is a point where the guy pauses, longer than the rest of argument. That's when he got it. Even in my mind I was expecting him to say "Ok Dave, you have a point". But he was already commited and didn't want to admit Dave was right. He then immediately goes into denial and trying to cut Dave off. His vibe changed mid way into the video. The guy was cool enough to say "Respectfully I disagree", but lacks to honesty to admit Dave has a point. Not even once he gives him credit, even when indirectly admitting to Dave's explanation of Face Value.

Its called ego/pride/confidence, all the BS dumba**es use

Too bad he was plainly wrong about cash value and death benefit. The insurance company doesn't keep a dime. Dave is ignorant of how it actually works, and he demonstrates as much every time this topic comes up.

If you listen to his entre-leadership podcast, he goes even deeper with his knowledge. He's just amazing.

@@floresnashvilledrummer We're so lucky he chose to help others, right? Good man.

@@Paul-jp8zz Really? What do you think happens to the cash value? Every whole life policy I've ever seen pays the face value of the policy at death unless you specifically purchase a policy with an increasing death benefit that increases with the cash value of the policy. Those policies are more expensive than standard. Life insurance salespeople often make it sound like you'll get both, but if you read the actual contract your heirs get the death benefit and the cash value goes to the insurance company. I'd be willing to be shown a policy that pays both as a matter of routine, but I don't think it exists.

@@Paul-jp8zz Wrong. You do not get the cash benefit AND the death benefit. You (your heir) gets the face value only, the rest they keep. Show me a policy that allows both. Does not exist.

With emotions, what got him into this mess.