@@norgepalm7315 it takes about 10-15 seconds of blood flow restriction for a person to lose consciousness. It takes 4-6 *minutes* of restricted bloodflow for permanent damage to occur.
yeah id like to see more fighters take his approach. the world looks at you a lot differently if you're the guy who just shrugs it off and shakes everyone's hand, vs throwing a temper tantrum and showin your ass in the middle of the octagon.
One of the scariest chokes I remember was Jon Jones choking out Machida. When the ref stopped the fight and Jones let go of him, Machida just fell like a sack of potatoes.
@@fred6839 I have rewatched the whole fight about 5 times since I posted this. Lol. I actually like both Machida and Jones, but as we all know Jones is pretty much throwing his career down the shitter with his behavior outside of MMA.
Marco Esteban - “but he wasn’t out” - you didn’t know that. The only person on earth that knows is Robbie Lawler. Did he let his arm go limp on purpose? He’s a veteran, he knows that’s a sign for the ref to stop the fight.
The comments on this clip, are the best endorsement of MMA fans I've ever seen; thoughtful, knowledgeable, and a bunch of people caring about their athletes!
Sophistschoice It’s because he presents a nice face. That’s how we judge right or wrong. If you present yourself as likable then you’re right. If you present yourself as unlikable, then everything you say is wrong, even if you’re right. I happen to agree with Dean, but that’s why the comment section is so calm. If he would’ve presented information in a loud, not soothing way and he had messy hair, everyone would be yelling and being nasty about how wrong he is. That’s how our society works
@@MrShanester117 I noticed this from my transition from 16 year old good looking lad to 24 year old ex heroin user that's half fallen apart, I act the same but the stigma of drug use or how you look in other cases really effects how people treat you. Guys don't hold open doors for ugly girls or old chicks either so it's both ways
I think herb dean can live with calling it early and taking flak instead of lawler possibly being paralyzed for life. No ref would be able to live with that
Octavian Dumitrascu besides once a guy like askren gets you like that your either going to sleep or your necks gonna get seriously injured and your just not gonna get out of it
Joe is a really talented talk show host. He makes the guests feel very comfortable, the environment is chill af, and Joe himself is just a nice dude. He always makes you feel like he is intently listening to what you have to say. That's why his podcasts are so popular
Herb Dean is an absolute pleasure to listen to. Expresses himself very clearly and concisely, and is very observant and thoughtful, as well as very, very polite in a conversation.
@@topbanana8724 you can be conscious and still get paralyzed. going unconscious is much safer than a spinal injury. and askren has an insane squeeze, I am sure he could break his neck is he really wanted to
@@topbanana8724 so ive done lots of judo and jujitsu tournament and honestly my personal weakness is neck cranks like those. People say that was a choke submission but even if lawler wasnt out the insane force askren was putting on his neck must have been tremendous. Like getting guillotine choked i can handle it pretty well and dont get tapped from it often but if they roll back with it and start a neck crank i immediately tap. Stuff to the neck/spine area can easily hurt people and yea i agree lawler wasnt out but if askren cranked harder he easily would have fractured or snapped lawlers neck before the tap came through.
With how he explains it about paralysis and possible implications of leaving a blood choke for to long he was 100% right to stop it, better to stop it 'early' and be safe than leave it and have someone permanently hurt. You can be upset about the lack of closure but herb had to stop it.
@@seangreenz420 and that happens all the time. Sometimes fighters don't even realize and other times they're just playing it up to try to look better. But dudes can be totally out and pop up 2 secs later yelling...doesn't mean they weren't out completely. Anyways, I agree with you and Herb made the right call.
He was out. When Herb first got over there, Ben let up on it for a split second thinking the fight had already been stopped, and that's when Robbie came back to life. At the time I doubt Robbie even realized he'd gone out, but the fact that both he and his manager just kinda dropped the whole thing after a couple days, tells me that even they ultimately came to the conclusion that it was over. I know Robbie's a quiet respectful guy who doesn't like to rock the boat, but he's not a doormat. If he truly felt like he had the fight stolen from him... he would've said something when asked about it at last week's press conference. Instead, he didn't even suggest that he'd been wronged in some way
I'd have lost some respect for Herb if didn't stop the fight. If he doesn't act when he sees an arm go limp like that, he's not doing his job. Dana calling it a bad stoppage is pretty shitty.
I've always said, I'm very surprised that none of these Ufc guys haven't died while fighting. Herb has a life an death decision every single time he refs a fight. Great job Herb all these years. Bless you.
its good because so far in mma there's never been a death in the octagon, and I attribute most to the amount of good referrees that are in there making sure it stays in the realm of sports, and not in courts
MMA is actually a very safe sport. A lot safer than boxing due to the fact of three 5 minute rounds vs boxing with 10+ rounds and the 10 second count. So you can theoretically get knocked out twice in the same round and still continue to fight in boxing. In mma with the ground and pound if they hit the deck they’re done. Also with the grappling aspect and submissions, fighters might take some damage but not very much and not for too long. Boxing is 100x more dangerous than MMA, that’s why people HAVE died in the boxing ring multiple times as well as tons of “punch drunk” boxers. We haven’t really seen too many MMA guys, even from the “no holds barred” crazy ass era, be punch drunk like these old boxers
@@Noles4life77 I get what you are saying and i agree with you for the most part, however i think calling mma a "very safe sport" is wrong, yes there has been no deaths but mma causes brain damage and cte bro
Herb is 100% correct in his call to stop the fight. Askren had Robbies head in a bulldog choke. He was bending his cervical spine backwards. Robbies arm visibly dropped limp from a defensive hold indicating he was unconscious. Unconscious meant Robbie would release tension on his neck. Had Herb delayed stopping the fight a second later than he did, Robbie could have fractured his cervical spine risking serious injury. That was a great fight and shows Ben is a beast to take those bombs from Robbie and ultimately get a submission.
cameron yogibear Learn about the different chokes and their effects before you start throwing around big words like “his” and “head” there buddy. The referee’s job is to stop the fight BEFORE serious damage occurs.... Actually nevermind learning since Herb took the time to explain it to you, ya freakin’ scrub.
cameron yogibear All respect is due to Robbie for this fight...he is a classy fighter and didn’t get the job done that night. You however are clearly a tool.
cameron yogibear yes “clearly” that’s it. Meanwhile, you are such a purest that in your mind and heart he wins even though he loses. Never mind what I said about you being a “freakin’ scrub” and a “tool”....I apologise for that. You have defeated logic and entered the shadow realm where losses, wins, and records no longer affect reality apparently...
@cameron yogibear it was a loss for Robbie there is now way in hell he was getting out of that i bet any money put someone you know in that choke they will not get out I let someone put me in it just to see and there is no way you can get out and it was Ben askren who was doing the bulldog at thag
@cameron yogibear Jesus christ he lost the fucking fight get over it. He looked unconscious so the ref stopped the fight. What do you not understand? And before you respond with more of your uneducated useless cursing, try and think about a logical response.
Joe with Dean: "He definitely went unconscious Joe with Lawler: "It was a bad stoppage" Joe with Askren: "He definitely went limp" Joe with Usman : "He was unconscious"
@Mike G He doesn't dispute this, he himself has said many times he just lets the guy talk and agreeing just facilitates that. Everyone is so confrontational these days. There's times for it, but that's not it.
@@SaturnVII exactly, agreeing merely helps the flow of conversation stay steady, rather than stopping to fixate on one thing while also stopping progress toward other topics.
i have gained so much more respect for Herb Dean after watching him on Joe's podcast. He is very intelligent, professional, patient, good spirited, honest, and neutral. Can't ask for anything more in a judge. Very honorable man.
I love that Herb's absolute goal is protecting the fighter. Guys have to realize a -1 on your record 20 years later doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme.
Herb Dean and Big John are clearly the future book writers of modern professional combat rules and regulations. They'll be remembered more than the actual fighters!!! Maybe.....
More like fucking up fights. Herb used to be great but he has fuck ups regularly and when he fucks up it's mostly scandalous. Watch CB Dollaway's last fight where Herb wanted him to die lol. Guys like Keith Peterson are the real elite refs today. The ones where people don't know their names.
Me and my younger bro met Herb Dean once at the Las Vegas airport back in July's fight week, one of the nicest and friendliest people there is. We were waiting on a flight and he was walking towards his gate and we asked for a picture and without hesitation said sure. Solid guy.
It's stupid to expect the ref to be 100% accurate when there is situations like that where people are watching replays for months and still not sure if the stoppage was OK.
No WAY, even one single tiny mistake and these refs must be publicly executed Yeah nah, guys like Herb are the best in the business, the man has probably saved lives
At least one person gets it. Not only was it the right call, it was the right call made within a second during an intense fight, where the wrong call can lead to some serious shit.
Daniel Marty makes me like Colby lmaoooo, I hated Colby till Marty started running his mouth acting tough against Ben askren back stage.... Marty’s top three most unlikable fighters in the ufc
Normie: *Watches in slow motion 500 times* "He's clearly not unconscious, how could Herb Dean make such a bad call?" The reason why referees are trained and have actual MMA knowledge, so they don't call fights like these idiots would
Foreal if a well respected expert makes a call that us fans don't understand, it's usually going to be because there's some factor or variable that we're not taking into account due to lack of knowledge or experience. The expert is not usually going to be the one who's in the wrong lol
Herb and Big John are the best referees to ever work an MMA fight...and it’s not even close. Herb is a class act and a stand up guy. Much respect to this man and his contribution to combat sports.
@meaturama if you're using sarcasm it wasn't clear enough. If you're actually serious go watch the plethora of fighters losing pinnacle fights because of shitty refs. People being killed because of shitty refs. Referees are as important as the fighters themselves in a professional setting.
Fun fact: Herb dean used to fight in mma himself in his younger days. There's afew fights of him uploaded on youtube in some british/uk cage fighting shows.
Do they bring up that he got kod by joe Riggs.. herb is one of the the only ref to have fought... I wanna see Frank trigg reffing some bigger fights n see if being a high level pro fighter helps with becoming a referee
@@TheLearyDon The initial reaction to Tim Sylvia and Frank Mir was the same with everyone booing and calling bullshit then on the replay you seen Tim's arm being broken. Herb is rarely on the end of a bad decision, so i'd give him the benefit of the doubt here.
If Robbie brakes his neck ,, mma is in danger , everybody wil say herb is a murderer ! So he did the right thing , he has to because he is a great ref...
Robert Jacob Wrong, if you’ve ever wrestled or done BJJ, you’ll know that grapplers have undeniably strong arms and grips. Some at the level of Ben Askren is simply gonna let go of the choke because “his arm is tired”. That reasoning is actually fucking stupid, Lawler was going to be slept if Herb didn’t call it.
@@robertjacob3910 that's true of some chokes, yes, but with a bulldog choke, in that position, your back is sharing the workload with your arms. It would take a long ass time to burn out your arms on that one.
Cool Grey Lawler could have made it to the end of the round without a chance of going out the way Ben had that thing gripped. Now, if he can slide his bicep a little lower then Robbie is in real danger. Robbie was in good position to make it to the 2nd unless the angle of the choke is changed
@@Roger-il8iw I don't know why Herb can't admit he made a mistake. You could see in the ring after the fight he knew he made a mistake. Kudos to Robbie for handling it like a pro.
@@bigrick962009 dude this is a sport, he clearly looked out. It’s general consensus that it’s a good stoppage. Watch the tape. It only takes a few seconds of blood loss to cause brain damage.
His running a very successful iPod I think he knows what he’s doing he definitely has to keep the peace debate and conversation but I would def agree with herb dean on this call
Sometimes you have to protect these guys from themselves. You don’t want to see guys get extremely hurt or killed in there. Great stoppage Herb. Great referee and a great guy.
Wholeheartedly agree... Curious of what you thought of this past weekend?? I think Herb is getting a hard time, for the simple reason Dan Hardy has a microphone and a wide opportunity to voice his opinion. Herb's explanation is enough for me. Totally valid stoppage and not as late as is being talked about
James McG yeah man I agreed with the stoppage last week. Herbert went down with his hands in a relatively intelligent defensive posture , so I can see why Herb gave him a chance. So I agreed wholeheartedly with herbs decision. I don’t really get the outrage over the decision ! at best maybe some can say the stoppage was a tad late , but that’s all. I seen nothing egregious about the stoppage. I agreed with herb dean all the way
I played that game once. I gave my character the best possible stats for leg kicking and kicked the fuck out of Dana White's legs until they broke. Pretty satisfying.
The move Rogan was talking about, the reverse guillotine , it sounds like he was describing the dragon sleeper if u wanna see what he was talking about
@@thottydagod457 remember it was the first round. hes train for this his whole life. he woulda kept that grip till the end of the round if that's what it took
Lol this cracked me up. I can picture that goofy bastard in an empty arena, still holding on, two months later.... waiting for a ref to come in and tell him to let go.
Herb Dean has literally refereed fights where people have been paralyzed by chokes and cranks. Calling the fight off was reasonable to save Robbies neck from Bens strength.
Yeah, I remember he was suggesting he was conserving energy or some such, which is why he let his arm go limp. I don't even have to call him wrong. I would still expect the Ref's to end the fight if you go limp intentionally. We don't want to set a precedence of telling refs to try to figure if the fighter is really out or just pretending.
@@RageDaug why waste energy flailing your arm around? Care to explain. Or is Ben the Bum really that good? I mean he did get knocked out by a disney kid. Disney making some real fighters over there.
A year later and looking back I still feel the same way, I have no problem with the stoppage because Robbie's arm undoubtedly went limp. Herb did EXACTLY what he's supposed to do in that situation. I feel he should have have stopped it when Robbie was unloading on Askrens face. Ben took way too many shots and Robbie was sorta fucked out of a win, worked in Ben's favor tho lol. But that Herb is still the best in the business.
Limp-leg is an escape technique. I suppose the fight should be stopped when it's used, too. Maybe Lawler should've been flexing like a body-builder for no apparent reason. I'd like to know how he's posting on that arm if it's limp.
@@LiberalsGettheBulletTooWhen in a fight, do you let your free arm go limp? I have never heard of a limp arm defense. Limp leg is more obvious for the ref because you can see their face....limp arm, when your head is in a choke, any kind of choke, is not a defense I have ever heard of.
Lawler isnt known for lying or making excuses though. Dont know why that would be the one and only time. Really. Lawler is about as "all class, no excuses" that there is.
@Fluke he was fully conscious and was arguing with herb dean immediately after the stoppage. plus, it wasn't a blood choke it was a bulldog choke which bends the spine so it wouldn't have choked him out anyway. honestly a bulldog choke is even more dangerous and I'm happy dean stepped in when he did rather than him doing so potentially too late
@Fluke ok well as I said before you can't get choked out with a bulldog choke since it works by bending the spine, and how could've be been out for 2 seconds if he was fully conscious when the fight was stopped?? at what point was he unconscious for 2 seconds?? before the ref stopped it during the bulldog choke where his arms seemingly went limp (which rightfully gave herb dean the impression he went unconscious), or after??
Smoochy Poochy lmao yeah Lawler would’ve stopped his arm from dropping right before the third one. Then he would’ve raised his arm slowly, shaking it dramatically. Damn, we missed out on something great. Thanks Herb...
@@AggressiveBeagle he didnt NEED to check after he SAW his fucking arm bounce...and when he DID check, Robbies "thumb up" with OPEN FINGERS was a reach at air....cause he didnt know what was happening...find me one other video of a guy giving a thumbs up with an OPEN HAND....bet ya cant!
"If I have the mindset that I'm always doing the right thing then I can't get better" Such an excellent quote. This mentality would fix so many of our problems.
Rhada manthus I think maybe because refs dive in to stop fights a lot, so it might hit a fighter on the way in. But that’s just a guess, I don’t really know. Cool idea though
Idk I think we might just be questioning the ref then.. and really the referees know so much being there and educated that it's a perspective that a camera doesn't do justice... See hear touch taste smell 'feel'.
You wouldn't be getting the refs eye view tho. Body cams for cops is different because your trying to get a live recording for an event that isnt recorded, but for a referee the field of view is of utmost importance. Simple experiment, put your hand up and block the view of something, now dont move your hand but move your head down to your chests former position. Body cams arent reliable.
Ref's are the first, first responders in the ring. Whether their call is good or bad in peoples opinions when ending a fight. Always remember that the safety of both fighters is a referee's top priority above all else.
Listening to Herb here, and Big Jon commentary in Bellator, I've gained so much more respect for how much knowledge they instinctively act on. Both of them are amazing.
I'm a big Robbie fan but I believe he was out. Even for a millisecond. I have never seen a fighter willingly go limp. Why would you do that? Herb made the right call.
Probability But that's not how it works. You must defend yourself at all cost as stated in the rules. If you allow your hands to go limp and try to play the coma card the referee can't tell it's a strategy and might just see you being out and will act accordingly. So, I just don't see how that dangerous plan (waiting for Ben Askren to be tired? Really...?) could work anyway, no matter how we look at it he was out or pretended to be. In both cases he lost the fight.
@@tenseiproductions3016 I agree, it's very risky and probably won't even work. But OP asked why would you go limp willingly, that was the only thing I could think of - just as a ploy.
Herb Dean is the best Referee for a reason. He is so caring for the fighters and takes responsibility. He is always the quickest ref to stop further damage
Am I the only person who thought it was a perfectly fine stoppage? Only reason lawler became conscious again was because askren let go, he was out cold
Dean Veni I’ve trained & have been choked out cold many times. You’d be surprised how many people can get right up as if nothing happened afterwards. Doesn’t mean they didn’t go “unconscious”
Aarnav Chaturvedi exactly, people don’t realize how much weight Ben was putting on his neck, even if he tried to pick him up, Ben has the grip to permanently damage someone’s neck. Any fighter has that strength in that weight class, the neck is a natural soft spot, which is why animals have thick coats or some type of protection at the neck
Biophotons yeah that’s what I’m trying to say, as humans we have sturdy solid shoulders that protect our neck area, and if we allow our neck to get injured we are at risk of death.