Historical review of Masters of the Air Episode 8 

This was a disservice to Crosby’s family by emphasizing how their father was busy screwing around.

The quality of "Masters of the Air" is taking worse attrition than the Luftwaffe at this time.

D-Day neglected for time to check some boxes.

I think when the dust settles we will find out the show went over budget and had to make cuts in the final episodes, plus Studio interference to insert check boxes. The non-100th threads are taking up too much time and don’t add anything. The quick clips and bouncing between threads is an indicator of saving money, move the plot threads as cheaply and quickly as possible

Guys, I had chemo this morning, and I listened to your podcast on the way home to Shasta Lake, about a 4.5 hour drive. I think you might be too picky with this series. There is another audience for this series besides history nuts like me, and you guys. I have my kids and grandkids watching this series and their response is always "I had no idea this stuff happened in World War II." They want to know "Did these men die like this? So many? How did they summon the nerve to do that?" I have a photo of my daughter waking amongst the graves at the Golden Gate Cemetery. It's the same place you went to recently Bill. Amazing video btw. It is a touching photo of my daughter searching for her great uncle's grave.. She's learning. Whether the exact history is important, it's important to history guys like us. What my kids and grandkids see is men going out and being blown out of the sky, and they did it willingly. My kids know that these men did this for them. They know it's a movie, but it's a movie about what my parents and uncles did. They know that the bombers are CGI, and they don't care. They know that these young men knew that the chances of them coming back alive were very slim. So they learn about bravery. So they have a chance to put their math to work also; they know know that a 25 percent survival rate has real meaning. I am a history nut like you guys are. I appreciate historical accuracy. But that is for me. It's not for everybody. Some people need to see what happened as a broad brush. And btw, the grave my daughter was looking for is my mother's baby brother. He was killed near the southern perimeter of Manila in 1945 at a place called Fort McKinley. He was with the 187th Glider Infantry. He died a month before his 20th birthday. He is buried at the Golden Gate cemetery. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything you guys do to preserve history. Love your show.

Watching John Orloff on WW2TV. He says bubbles was killed off early because of time constraints in the episodes and not focusing on bomber missions at the time of his death, but other stories..

I was absolutely riveted by the first several episodes, but they have really tripped up the last couple as they’ve detoured away from their core story.

Best podcast by far. Great guests Historical discussions are the rest of the story in a casual format.

“Thats very unhealthy… So’s combat folks”. Great quote.

I met Alexander Jefferson in Clarksville, TN where he was a guest speaker for an anti-bullying association as he addressed the youth attending. Even in his 90s the man is in good shape, has a clear and sharp memory, and is inspirational. He explained that in that attack on the radar sites he was shot down mainly due to the fact that he was Tail End Charlie in the flight of 14 P51Cs. He said that by the time he made his run "They had me pretty well lined up!" He was hit at about 500 feet and immediately made a climb before his engine quit. When it did he bailed out. His description of being a "Kriegie" was fascinating. He was indeed a fair artist, but I don't think he mentioned being asked to make maps for Major Cleven. I think Ya'll are right. This episode was not John Orloff's best written episode of the series, which indeed is frenetic as Seth proclaimed. (That's being polite) That's all I will say as I don't want to appear too harsh. PS: The inclusion of the 332nd pilots into this story was minor at best to the telling of the history of the 100th BG. I feel Producers insisted that some reference to African Americans must be written into the plot as they were so afraid to exclude them. (No, I am not a racist) Left wing liberalism at its best.

Glad to see this! Waited for it Thanx Bill and Seth!!❤

A whole mini series on the Tuskegee Airmen as Tommy mentions, would be excellent. But it's unfortunate with 9 episodes, everything seems dilluted.

"Cut to the chase - Sledgehammer to the face." Gangster. I will be stealing that line!

I can’t be the first person to say this here but have not seen it in the comments yet. I think the main reason they can get away with such shoddy storytelling is the characters have all passed away. There is nobody from this group left to say “you can’t treat crosbie like that” that could not have happened with BoB because so many of them were still alive to keep it from happening. I’m really disappointed now. It’s always been too jumpy, and now it’s just lost its way. Thank you guys for the reviews, they have significantly added to my enjoyment of the series.

“The Pacific” showed that writers could tell the stories of multiple people without taking away from the main focus of the show.

Character arch! Bill, I’m proud! Your evaluation of character was a good one! The music commentary was also good. I like how the energy of the music builds, just like the war or an aircraft taking off!

Thank you Bill Seth and Tommy.

My cousin is Daniel Haulman the author of the book misconceptions about the Tuskegee airman, it is a very good book and I was thrilled to hear you reference it. He has always been a great inspiration to me and has spent a massive amount of time researching and interviewing the Tuskegee airman, my great grandfather was a ball turret gunner with the 447th bg and his father was a pilot of b 24’s in the 44th

Seems like the last two episodes became more about checking the right boxes than making an epic series. What a shame.

Enjoyed your Cliff Notes breakdown of episode 8 far more than the 20 min. I wasted on Apple TV.

THANK YOU BILL!!! BRO CODE!!! NEVER TALK ABOUT ANOTHER MANS RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN. it’s like when a guy dies and the officer takes away anything that would make the man look bad to their family

The series was written for 10 episodes but due to covid and 2 lost production periods of 10 days and the having to pay over 1000 employees it was cut to 9 episodes.

Instead of Crosby they really could have focused on the fighter sweep campaign where 8th Fighter Command was sent to destroy the luftwaffe in the air and on the ground.

You can blame Morwenna Banks for her terrible writing all you like, but the ultimate blame lies with those who invited her into the project and signed off on the final product. One has to wonder if Spielberg and Hanks are really in control here.

We stopped watching at episode six in order to wait for the last three episodes to drop, and then watch them. For some reason, I thought I'd tune in your podcast today. (I'm not worried about spoilers, as I know the story of the 8th AF, the 100th BG, and I know how the war ended. ;) ) Anyway, I got about thirty minutes in and just turned it off. Why? No need for me to go on because y'all have made me aware of what a dumpster fire this mini-series has become. Thank you! Thank you very much! Now, I won't waste three hours of my life that I'll never get back watching those last three episodes.

112 Squadron RAF was the only Allied squadron in the MTO that was allowed to use the shark mouth paint scheme on their P-40s. It was the most distinctive feature of their aircraft and therefore an important identifying feature for the unit.

The "Catch 22" series, albeit being comedy focused, did a better job on showing the effect of missions on bomber crews.

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A JIMMY DOOLITTLE EPISODE? The single most influential American citizen of all time. Metal of Honor and Presidential medal of freedom. Converted the factories to make planes, flew the raid, led the 8th AF. It was Doolittle idea to make 110 octane fuel first. He made Shell Oil co so much money. He was a sales rep for 25 years. Research his trip to Germany while working for Shell in 1938.

Most likely “Sandra” is a story breadcrumb thrown to the women in the audience. However, unlike the soldiers in “Band of Brothers” , the airmen had more exposure to women, both on the base and in London. I agree that fewer characters would have allowed for more satisfying details.

I’m gutted at how this has turned out. After 4 episodes I thought it was one of the best programs I’d seen in my life, way better than Band of Brothers and Pacific (and I loved both). Now, I’m not getting much out of it at all. The planes are the stars; the action of the 17 raids are what the first 5 episodes were all built on, I could give a f__ about the stalag or Crosby being tired.

I watched the final episode last night. Tim Van Patton, who was the director of three episodes in the Pacific, was brought back for the last episode. It was nicely done. I was moved. Just tell the story truthfully. What happened was so incredible. There was no need to embellish.

Rather than demonstrate the competence of the 332d this episode just tried to play the race card.

I agree with your review. The story has just jumped all over. Even if you take out the skirt chasing and the Tuskeegees, it still just jumped from 1942 to 1945 in just three or four missions.

I like many of you waited 7-10 years for this. Some people died waiting for this. We expected Band of Brothers or Pacific. What we got has been very disappointing. Is because they gave up because of Covid? Kudos for you guys all of this out. You have kept your exceptional creditability.

Hogan's Heroes was Stalag 13. Stalag 17 was the William Holden movie.

Lads, I truly appreciate the amount of work that it takes you to produce a response to this series. My judgements are suspended until I can view, absorb and cognate. I cannot take all these things in piecemeal without a greater understanding of the total picture. As always, the truths, lie somewhere. And, as always, your research and appreciation is incredible, (projection), and very much appreciated. I work in the performance industry, and have had an academic career as well, with both history and aesthetics as a part of my brief. So, gentlemen, I will let the dust settle and respond.

As usual, you guys hit the nail on the head...Masters is in a tail spin. With one episode left, I don't see how they be able to recover. Too bad Hollywood screwed up another good story The true story of what the 8th AF accomplished , deserves better. Thank you Gentlemen

If I’m not mistaken, we know most of this mini series was done some three years ago? It almost looks like the first 5-6 episodes were done, then these last episodes have a re-edited look. You wonder if this was the case?

Capt., with respect, to your assertion that the Red Tail who spoke up the distance on a mission being greater than the P-51’s range even with drop tanks, he was not trying educate anyone in the room about the range of the P-51. Not a chance. Rather, it is a device to say to one’s commander, “What, are you nuts? Is it your intention to ask every last one of us to die!?!?” But, one cannot say that except indirectly. As a former Army Sgt who always worked in special intelligence, at major HQs, around more Birds and Stars than I care to think about, one does in fact have to find ways of saying you’re wrong or even stupid to someone’s face without losing rank or heading for the stockade. Give the guy, and the writers, some credit for pulling off that feat. David Ralph

The Tuskegee airmen had a movie made about them several years back, was it really necessary to insert them into this story of the 100th Bomb Group?

I am watching this series with my 16 year old grandson who wants to get into the Air Force academy… we were loving it.. but as you said.. it’s too broken up. Stick to a few stories, and leave out the Crosby love affair.. which I was embarrassed watching it with him. you gentlemen are amazing..

They whitewashed the performance of heavy bombers on Omaha. The bombers went perpendicular to the beach and overshot their targets.

My comment last week about “mission creep” unfortunately came true. Too many B stories and not enough of the actual 100th. And that was without spending much time with the intrepid Sub-Altern/spy in France. So that’ll be another B story to weigh down the last episodes. The Tuskegee Airmen and the story of women SOE agents in occupied Europe are great stories. But they don’t need to be cluttering a show about the 100th BG. Their’s a reason the 761st Tank Batt. (Black Panthers) weren’t in Band of Brothers even though they fought at the Battle of the Bulge.

I loved the series! And especially loved seeing the documentary afterward with the real heroes!!

Picking at nits, of course, but Davis was not the first African-American USMA grad. That would be Henry Ossian Flipper, Class of 1877.

“You cover it with a fart and that’s ridiculous”… Another great quote.

99th Fighter Squadron transitioned from P-40 to P-39 and then to P-51 in 1944 - Source is "Combat Squadrons of the Air Force World Wat II" by Maurer Maurer. Its the only source I have for this

@56:00 I agree 100% with Tommy. When Buck/Bucky went down and Rosenthal was the sole surviving command pilot, I assumed that he WAS going to be the "Dick Winters" of this series. Don Miller specifically called him out in his book as one of the main reasons that the quality of the 100th improved so much. His ascendance would have matched Winters in his increased leadership and responsibility just prior to the Normandy invasion. But the writer's had other ideas and the show was running out of time. Watching John Orloff's interview with WW2TV, Covid really took a big bite out of their production budget. The delays from illness and testing really hurt them in a big way (i.e. 2 hours of production lost almost every day due to waiting for test results). All of the grips got sick the day that they filmed Bucky's transport on the wagon in the forest.

I think if they focused on the 8th, including a Figther Group, they could have given themselves so much more narrative room, even if you still include an escape and evasion and POW B storylines. I think it was a flaw to just focus on the 100th My dream series would have been a CBO one, telling the American, British and maybe even German perspectives, with D-Day being the big finale of the series (and Big Week getting more than a passing mention, if that). And with the British properly comparing and contrasting methodology - really showing what they were doing not just saying ‘we carpet bomb civilians at night and don’t care what we hit’ because that wasn’t ever true either. And having a bit more nuance in what amounted to unprecedented and unparalleled levels of cooperation with the Americans, rather than just showing the animosity in a clumsy way

I believe this series was made. Not for historians to view, but for everybody else. Thus the human angle. But I'm with you. Guys. Some of the so-called historical movies.Are crange worthy

One good thing came out of this for me. I found the Tuskegee Airman DVD in the local library and reserved it. Sorry you guys had to endure this. Thank you. Maybe the whole Masters series will be available eventually at the library, and I can see the first 6 episodes anyway.

You’re spot on that they have gone well off the rails with this episode. It’s like having shot down nearly all of the principal characters they don’t know what to do. So they just start making stuff up and looking for other weird stories some of which they are making up. They almost totally ignored the 100th and its actual operations in this episode.

Oh no, i just finished binge watching ALL episodes of UHOTPWP and now I only get to watch one a week!

I appreciated the comments about "Tuskegee Airmen", and "Red Tails". For years I've been telling people to watch HBO's version. I went to watch Red Tails in the theater. About a halfway thru I went to the restroom. When I came out I looked left, then right, then took a right to the lobby and went home. Poor characters, and airplanes doing things airplanes can't do.

What started off as an epic homage to the brave people of the 100th has turned into a tragic dumpster fire. The story arc (scenes) jumping back and forth, the questionable editing, cut scenes, etc. the scene of the Tuskegee pilot in the barn looks close to death, then looks paralyzed, then is carried into the camp, then walking around? Why even bring them in (not needed)? The fact that D-Day is relegated to Crosby sleeping through it… REALLY? Rosie Rosenthal said in an interview that he flew three missions, yep three bombing missions on D-Day. He also went on to be a prosecutor at Nuremberg. They are trying to compress too much into the last few episodes and failing miserably! Pity really. Let’s face it, we all DO NOT have to like it!

I largely agree with what has been said, though I have a slightly different take. I think the show did a horrible show of depicting Crosby, beginning with the casting of Anthony Boyle. By all accounts, Crosby was exceedingly humble and competent. His intelligence and competence does come through--after the war, he got his doctorate in English from Stanford. In his memoir, he wrote about his relationship with Landra Wingate. Again, he wrote about it--nobody in his family should be surprised by it. He was the narrator for the series. His relationship with Landra was part of his story. But he wrote about the relationship with nuance, and I agree we did not need the two bedroom scenes--especially the second one. And I agree we did not need the fictional scenes of Sandra Westgate as an SOE agent in France. In real life, Landra Wingate apparently did highly sensitive work and may well have worked in intelligence. But we know enough about the SOE to say she was not an SOE agent in France in 1944. There were too many storylines in the last two episodes. But if I can return to the Sandra controversy, I thought Bel Powley in episode six stole every scene she was in.

That was a good attempt at the music. As a musician I am glad someone mentions it. The horns are used in a lot of themes in video games and movies based on the WW2 theme. Music plays a role in story telling. Thanks for another review video.

It really felt like they just shoehorned in the Tuskegee Airmen. We didn't even see any escort missions that a lot of people would have liked to see. No real time given to contextualize the 332nd

Looking forward to episode nine review

I find it implausible that they would announce the invasion before it was executed.

I get it,,I didn't think it was as bad as you guys. I AM glad they figured out how to work the 332nd into the story. My guess is that the average guy watching the series does not know it and they should. I think the chicks were involved in the production of this episode as the emphasis was on the touchy feely stuff rather than on the guy stuff like shooting and yelling!! ONLY KIDDING (this is going to get me flamed) :)

Right on point. The exclusion of the 8th AF fighter groups is a travesty.

What no one wants to say is the DEI requirement in Hollywood. The men of the 332nd deserve their own miniseries, not some "oh by the way inclusion." This series started out with so much promise. Disappointing.

The point came prior to Dday when raids to Berlin demonstrated that the Luftwaffe was terminally defeated as they could not withstand their loss of planes and pilots. They never recovered from the Berlin battles.

brits bomber crew also had "chocolate" to keep them awake

Good commentary on a mixed bag of Hollywood tricks.

Overall, I think the story degenerated into a trope fest where attention to detail faded away. This started so well, but I feel like it was deliberately derailed to check boxes. Ultimately, I think the 332nd deserved its own series, but not tacked on to this show.

Imo Rosenthal should of been the main character of this series. He has got to get shot down 3 times in 1 episode! If they tell his story correctly...

Unfortunately this series has fallen into the modern media trap of being all inclusive

Aussies were flying the p40 pretty late in the war but the US a lot less so I would think.

The storytelling has been disjointed because the showrunners lack vision and focus. They tried to tell too many stories at once but since there's only 9 episodes, everything becomes rushed as there's simply not enough time to tell the stories. Everything just falls apart.

Bill, you've been a junior officer. Did you consider, that one pilot speaking up about the range limitations could have been the only one brave enough to speak to the Colonel like that, or he was elected by the other pilots to speak up. That was my take away, not that he was the only one smart enough. What do you think?

There's already so much stuff going on, and adding the Tuskegee airmen out of nowhere just complicates things further.

I took the scene from Tuskegee. Airmen was the telling the viewer What the risk was involved in this mission instead of the following airman and leadership of this group briefing.

Lot of negative comments... So I'm going to say this show is amazing

Good morning from SC!

Glaring error, the P40 doesn’t have a different metallic strip along its exhaust ports finished in bare metal like the P51 does. The cowling on a Warhawk is all the same metal. It’s on your thumbnail photo, a P40 rendered to look like a Mustang. Only a refinished present day warbird will have that bare metal strip. Probably to make exhaust stain cleanup easier.

Show should only be about the 100th bomb group. Was episode 7 the first time someone put initial fighter cover fighting Germans while the bomb run went ahead? We also saw bombers with escort get decimated still. The tracer rounds from hundreds of planes was really cool.

Because of the political undertones (as well as overtones) and sensitivity surrounding the "diversity" issue, I think there has been a tendency by many to dismiss critics of diversity efforts as racist, sexist, overstated, etc. However, I get the sense that more and more people, from all spectrums, are realizing what it's doing to various institutions, including Hollywood, and are coming around to understanding that it is a problem. It's quite obvious that diversity considerations played a major role in both the shoehorned TA story along with the director choices, which then resulted in bad storytelling in the last two episodes. We have to remember that most of what we're seeing today is reflective of the environment in which it was produced 2 or so years previous. Most need no reminder of what the culture was like at that time regarding these issues. My sense is that given the many years it has taken to make MOTA, the first 6 episodes are reflective of what film/tv production was capable of before the radical diversity shift, while the last 2 is what it looks like post radical diversity shift.

Hollywood can't help themselves. They can't have a story that involves men without injecting a strong, empowered woman even though the character doesn't legitimately belong. Modern day politics.

Wanted "Masters of the Air", not "Prisoners of the Camp".

Another great review show. Maybe the show went downhill due to budgetary constraints? It would have been awesome if they had interspersed some scenes with General Macarthur in the show. Completely illogical but would love to hear the comments.

Crosby slept through D-Day and so did Episode 8.

Could not agree more as to these reviews and could not be happier you guys are doing them. I have become a UHP addict lately. In any event looking at the previews I thought the whole Tuskigi section was going to be an independent chapter not a drop in at the end of the series. Also from a story continuity standpoint, you are sitting their coming up to the Rosenthal mission where escorts show up and you are like now we are going to get some satisfaction and see the Germans taken to the woodshed. But they just blow over it, no story of sweeping the sky and no effort to portray Fighter air combat in a serious way. So these last two episodes have been a real dissapointment. in part for the reasons you mention but also just missions the continuity of the 8th Air Force story.

Show peaked around episode 3...last couple have been a dog's dinner tbh

Interesting stuff..as usual...really enjoy the way u present your shows (and your collaborators). Read bits and pieces about Fleet Admiral Leahy...a segment on him and his overall influence would be great. Seems like he was the ultimate behind the scenes operator? How did he get along with King,Marshall etc ? Cheers Anthony

This is another series produced by BeanCounters. Just throw in some sex and PTSD and it will be popular.

Catch 22 B-25’s were based on the author’s flying experiences flying from the island of Corsica. The fifteenth A.F. Was based around the southern (Foggia?) region of Italy.😳

I agree with everything said in the video Seth, Bill and Tommy didn't sugar coat it in hopes of making friends in Hollywood like some have around the interwebs. I was listening to a few interviews with both the Author of Masters and production crew on different channels. The Author seems to just be shrugging his shoulders now, I don't think he feels they did a great job of it. In fact during a Web stream with a director or producer from Seth's old job site he seemed to be trying to explain this may not be everything everyone wanted, but the Hollywood guy kept jumping in to cut him off. I did finally get a reason for this all seeming so damn scrunched together beyond what I've expected though....just a couple of days ago one of the Tech advisors mentioned they lost a few weeks or maybe even a couple of months of filming due to COVID....The actors and crew kept getting paid ect but nothing was being filmed. And most importantly Apple did not increase the budget to make up for the loss. That also may explain the wait we had to get this to the TV. I know the CGI was one issue they had to improve, but it's quite possible the way most production companies film that there were a lot of scenes that would have made this more seamless that just never got shot. I know Hanks and Spielberg like to give other directors chances when making these series....but I think even with the previously mentioned issues during production it's bit them in the ass here. These last two series were not directed by someone who loved and cared about the subject matter. Whats the use of getting fine details perfect when the overarching story line is not detailed enough to maintain suspension of disbelief? Oddly as engaging as Buck and Bucky are I don't know why they were picked, Harry Crosby even says in his book the reason the Group had so much trouble initially was because of those two personalities. I believe he even says one or both refused to follow the straight and level doctrine on the bomb run. Instead hand flying it so they could do evasive maneuvers if they felt they needed to. It wasn't until they were gone plus a couple of CO's later and with the help of Rosie that the Group became professional and got the job they were paid for done. P.S. I did see there will be an accompanying 100th BG documentary to go with the series using interviews with the actual men portrayed....so I think Hanks and Spielberg knew and are trying to make up a bit for where the series dropped the ball in telling their story.

Can't wait to get back to the Pacific. 😊😊

Thank you.. great work even tho this is/has trended down to be more than the story ot the 100th. I’m still a fan of the 12 o’clock movie.. the Gregory Peck one….

Greetings from the UK. I enjoy your podcasts about MotA a lot. I am inclined to agree with you when you say that these past two episodes (directed by the same director you say) are my least favourite and like you, I wish there were more episodes to come than just one more as it does make me concerned that it will feel too much like a rushed job to tie up various loose ends. That said, I have just watched an interview with John Orloff in which he was asked which episode he was most proud of and I don't think this is a spoiler as such, but John Orloff says Episode #9. Perhaps that assuages some of your concerns. Personally, I'm not so sure - I'm hopeful, but I think there is just too much left to do. We'll see tomorrow. Thanks again - I'm enjoying your work.

They would be briefed on range and expected fuel remainders on every mission.

Episode 9 is complete effing twaddle. It’s like when your elementary school teacher got behind in history and you learned ww2, Korea the civil rights movement, the Cold War and Vietnam all in the same week, the week be for school let out? Yes, that’s episode 9.

I think the show tried to cover too much ground with too little time. The episodes are only about 45 minutes. Even at an hour per episode telling the story with this many characters would have been difficult. Maybe there is a DVD set that will expand on each episode. It just seems that they made too many trade offs in Episode 7 and 8. The jumping back and forth should have been handled with episodes of the different experiences in their entirety. Even if there 12 episodes i am sure that we would have all been glued to our tvs for the whole thing. The production seemed rushed. If not the production then the editing was terrible. Hopefully, there is a better DVD release.

This episode stank to high Heaven !

Watts was not the percieved ghetto in the mid 40's, but became lame as the years passed.

During the earliest episodes I was quite confused: Who are these "masters" of the air? You mean the Luftwaffe?

I thought Crosby made clear in the book that there wasn’t a physical side to the relationship with the British roommates? Also, the Red Tales attack in episode 8 takes place in prep for Dragoon.

I’m glad an effort is being made to tell this story, but this show has turned into a hot mess. They are trying to tell too many stories at once and it has become hard to track them all in real time.