Hitbox - Doomed By Design 

Yeyeyeye you caught me, it wasn't first try - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Gv0br8aIyEM.html

Wow, genuinely impressed with this. Presentation alone is insane levels of quality but beyond that, the amount of fighting game history that is covered here is a genuine love letter. Every single time I thought of something to add to the subject you were one step ahead and it would start playing on the screen. While at the end of the day my want for anyone and everyone to enjoy the genre trumps the need for any kind of *standard* (even if the only way someone can enjoy the game is *technically* better), the controller arms race discussion is still a fascinating one to me. War has changed!!!! Great job!!

I'll be honest, I use a hitbox and it was my entry into the fgc. I guess I'm a part of the new generation of fighting game players and I never experienced the arcade Era. I appreciate the stick users and it is incredible what some people can do, but in the end I think hitboxes are a tribute to how competition is. Someone will always look for a stratedy, a breathing technique, a new controller that transforms the scene it is placed in and because the new standard. Also, the standing 720 killed me lol, thank you for this essay.

Many good points in the video, however I feel the statement at 38:38 "If developers reduce the effectiveness of leverless controllers, then what was the point of them in the first place?" is very off the mark. I don't use keyboard to play fighting games because it makes me win more; I use keyboard because it's right in front of me and I don't need to buy a dedicated peripheral to play the game. It's cheaper and more accessible for me, and many many other PC gamers to just play the game this way. If leverless controllers were nerfed by developers, I'd still use keyboard, and still choose to buy leverless once I feel I've invested enough because that's what I'm *familiar* with. Arcade sticks were the standard input option because they were previously the most accessible and familiar input option. Fighting games used to be primarily on arcades, so at the time, most players first exposure to the genre was at an arcade cabinet. Now, arcades are mostly gone in the west, so the scenario of using the control scheme before going out of your way to buy an arcade stick is *impossible* for many players. The entire point of arcade sticks, from the beginning, was *familiarity,* but now in the current market, it no longer serves that purpose to new players going forward. The purpose of arcade sticks as the default input method is reliant on context that no longer exists; the very same familiarity that *now* exists between keyboard and leverless controllers. This isn't to say that the inputs are balanced. The advantages of directional buttons is undeniable. But the truth is that banning leverless controllers gates out a huge amount of possible players from the scene. From the viewpoint of growing the community, AND the business viewpoint of maximizing sales, embracing leverless controllers is the logical answer. There will be concessions and compromises, but the presence of leverless controllers *has* contributed to the FGC's recent surge in popularity. I think things like the crossup hybrid controller and developer tweaking are more than worth it as compromises.

I very much disagree with the belief that those who cannot use a joystick, should not engage in fighting games competition. Unlike traditional sports, where those who are unfit/short/etc., have a major disadvantage and those who have physical disabilities cannot even compete in the same environment. Video games in general are special in that one's physical abilities/disabilities has a lesser role in doing well in a game. Even if you are obese/short/have f'ed up hands/etc., you can still compete at the highest level. I would even say it is within the spirit of competitive games, that we try as hard as possible to not let physical disadvantages stop us from competing. I would not deny that leverless controllers give an advantage in execution. However, I feel that this problem is also deeply rooted in fighting games' legacy. Fighting games till this day are still designed for joysticks and fighting game players are still very much attached to fighting game execution. I personally think fighting game execution is one of the most satisfying things to do. Nothing can replace the feeling of hitting a hard combo, perfect parrying at a life or death situation, etc. But we also forget how execution prevents newer players from even reaching the skill floor to play the game, we forget how much time it took for us to get remotely consistent with DP input, 360 inputs, charge inputs, etc. If a new player cannot even play the real game, then it gets harder to get new player to come back and stay in the FGC. Thus, we can see in SF6, they tried to keep legacy players happy with classic controls and attract new players with modern controls. But, an issue occurs in how to balance the competitive integrity of modern controls while also allowing new players an easier time to pick up the game? Honestly, I am rather interested in a different school of thought in fighting games. A school of thought, where one's controller and execution has a lessor role in playing well and the way it will change the landscape of fighting games where players can move beyond focusing on execution to the less visible, more vital and perhaps harder part of fighting games.

18:25 tekken has neutral guarding and backdash guarding (aka, backdashes are safe, you can block during them) so the only time you are vulnerable while doing a korean backdash is during the downback input, and only to mid attacks, highs will never hit you while kbding properly, you will either back block, neutral block or be crouching and the high will whiff, and mids will be blocked while you hold back, are neutral and hit if you are holding db to crouch

Wait till this guy finds out about keyboards...

The third option is 'I'm a pc gamer but I'd like something more ergonomic for fighting games, while retaining the familiarity of a keyboard'. It's cynical and disingenuous to assume the only reason anyone would go for leverless is to 'win more'. You mentioned yourself that the pc scene for fighting games has grown exponentially in the last decade, fourteen years to be more precise (SF4), so it's baffling to me that outside of that small mention you would then neglect that key bit of information for the rest of the video.

You know when a new Rubbish video drops it's going to be top-tier quality... and I'm going to disagree with it probably.

I don't really buy the arguments made at 38:38 (If we reduce effectiveness of leverless, then what was the point in the first place?) and 41:43 (A ruling would set players back in time and money.) Both of these are sunk-cost arguments. If you invest in a control method that cracks the game to some degree and that method eventually loses its effectiveness for the sake of fairness and fun, then that's a risk that you signed up for. It's kind of like saying that top tiers shouldn't be too nerfed because high-level players have already invested so much time in mastering the best characters. But I don't care about that. In the age of patching issues later down the road, it's on you to do whatever will lead to long-term enjoyment rather than short-term gains. In fact, I think that's a good thing. It encourages players to use what they personally prefer rather than what's currently optimal. As for how to make leverless more fair, I've heard that first input priority would be a good solution, as it requires commitment to a single input until you release it. I wonder if there's something I'm overlooking, however. Maybe no cleaning on the hardware side and first input priority on the software side is the way to go.

this has been mentioned by some commenters already, but this video seems to fail to address the fact that theres a lot of other factors that come into play when it comes to what controller you use, mostly focusing on the two reasons you presented in the video -- selectively winning more and being able to do something you weren't able to do something easier. these two reasons are definitely the responses some would give as to why they would prefer one controller over the other, but i think it glosses over other complexities that come into play when you consider controller choice. to draw from my own experience as an example, i play primarily on keyboard, a control scheme that pretty much can replicate anything a leverless can do, but this is because ive been playing this way for my entire fighting game career, and other control methods feel unintuitive and less responsive to me. i dont want to gloss over the fact that you do in fact address reasons other than the two major ones you focused on in the video; ergonomics, accessibility, and developer intention are probably a much more objective standard to consider in terms of the debate, but i think its important to consider the subjective angle of the debate too. the core of the argument id say for a lot of players is that certain control schemes are more comfortable to use for many people, and to some that comfort means utilizing the most "efficient" control scheme. there's definitely some muddiness to the matter due to the subjectivity involved, but the overall comfort allows players to get more into the gameplay loop of fighting games, and also aspire to be the best player they can, and, to add some personal perspective on the matter, i think this is the most important part of the debate. i also wanted to address your closing thoughts in the video, as its really the only genuine criticism i have for it. the rest of the discussion was really interesting to consider. you express lament in the phasing out of levered controllers, that many motions are mainly replaced by "pressing a few buttons". i wont deny that theres some truth in the matter, but i think you gloss over the fact that the input style is just as much privy to human error as any other. it takes effort to get good with this control style too! other than that, loved the video.

39:36 The video has a lot of good stuff in it, but this whole section is just so wild to me. To say that injury is an inevitable part of any competition, and that having an injury preventing you from competing just "is what it is" seems so callous to me, when the entire video is about alternate controllers that can help alleviate or entirely prevent these injuries. A runner developing a leg injury and someone playing fighting games developing wrist/hand injury over a long period of time because they are using a controller that doesn't work for them, are presented as equally unavoidable things. I'm biased because I like using leverless to play the games I love without my wrist feeling like garbage, but I think the advantages that leverless offers pale in comparison to the chance to be included at all, no matter how "miniscule" the people in my position are.

That's like saying F1 should still use stick shift instead of paddle shit. We've made a better controller and now it's time for games to adjust. This is called progress. There's more to fighters than just execution. Easier execution opens us up to focus more on the other aspects. Also easier didn't mean easy. Certain aspects of driving an F1 car are easier today than years ago but that doesn't make it easy. At the highest levels of competition you still see a lot of the same names. The evolution hasn't changed the talent and skill needed to be at the top.

As a TO, I inherently do not think you are characterizing the push for low-lag input monitors & setups appropriately. Low-input lag monitors increase responsiveness for all player regardless of controllers. It is a net benefit to playability. Also, it is expected that tournament venues have standardized setups owned either by TOs or venues; it is not exclusionary for a TO organization to provide, say, thousands of PS5s + Inzone monitors for massive events like EVO or Combo Breaker. Sure, these setups are pricey that's out of reach for a lot of people, but they A) ensure baseline of competitive integrity across all tournament setups B) Nobody I've ever met has told me that having more responsive control over a fighting game is a bad thing. Players in my city prioritize IRL Strive & SF6 tournaments solely for response offline play.

While the Hitbox was intended as an optimized version of an arcade stick, I feel like recently it really became just another tool one player can use. Notably, I remember seeing that only 1 winner from the past 2-3 years from the major FG games tournaments used a leverless, while the rest were split between pad and arcade stick. Is it optimal? Maybe, but in fighting games where at a high level mind games and overall gameplan play a much bigger role, its hard to make a case that leverless is just better for everyone. One other thing that leverless has allowed, is PC players to more easily join the community, making the transition from keyboard to leverless is trivial, and it doesn't require weeks or months of building the necessary muscle to not cramp up while holding the stick or a small pad. I've tried all the methods, and I can literally play leverless 8h+ a day because I'm just so used to a keyboard. It feels like finally we have a controller available for each major style of gamer, which is awesome.

"If developers account for leverless controllers to make them less efficient, then what was the f***ing point of even having them in the first place??" Strong disagree here. The point of leverless controllers' existence (i.e. why I believe they must remain), is that it allows disabled players to compete with a method that produces the same output in-game without requiring actions that their out-of-game disability constrains or implicitly disadvantages for them. Even very common disabilities like arthritis have SIGNIFICANT differences in discomfort and pain when exerting pressure on a button without flexing the finger, versus moving the finger/wrist along a surface to find different buttons. "We don't allow people with a leg injury to ride their bike in a marathon" We don't force people born without legs to run a marathon unassisted either. They're permitted to use prosthetics. And to be honest... I don't want to have to PROVE my disability if I go to a fighting game tournament, or to be treated as an ''exception", because I KNOW how much discrimination that produces and I want to engage with the game I love without being subject to that BS. Moreover, developers can account for leverless controllers in ways that don't 'shift the line' as you demonstrated - there are ways which can selectively reduce leverless efficiency MORE than other control methods, NARROWING the gap. If you give a player a Modern-like control scheme that gives them 1-button DP's, but also applies a 6-ish frame delay on executing that DP in contexts where it couldn't be buffered, then you have reduced the execution barrier AND maintained gameplay parity between control schemes AND allowed for potentially better results in-game by high execution players than are provided by the 'easy' method. That's just an off-the-dome example but my point is, you can modify the game and input rules in nuanced ways that can compensate for any 'implicit' differences between control methods. And regardless, I want to reiterate that forcing a player to 'prove they're disabled enough to use an alternate control method to compete' is a really... awful system that normalizes othering and viewing disability as exclusively impairment and some people as 'more disabled' than others. I think that the topic needs to be approached with empathy - rejecting people from engaging with their passion, even though a way for them to do so is right there, feels cruel even WITH the comparison to real life sports injuries, because injuries and disabilities are ALSO arbitrary. So it would... amount to, in a sense, an exclusion of some players for fundamentally arbitrary and uncontrolled reasons, and that doesn't sit right with me, not to mention people born with disabilities to begin with. I use leverless to avoid hand issues related to my disability (congenital). I also, technically, benefit from it in the ways you've outlined - but I would argue, I benefit less FROM leverless than I would be disadvantaged by having to use pad or stick. Even in acknowledgement of the 'unfairness', it is still the lesser of two evils, and moreover may not bring me up to par input-wise with an abled player using one of the 'harder' control methods anyway. Is there the possibility that a fully abled player could 'exploit' those advantages? Sure, I guess, but even then, not all disabilities are visible, and I don't want to create a culture where a player's input method justifies forcing them to divulge personal (and often very charged, private and painful) experiences to 'justify' their group membership in a way that is selectively applied just to disabled players. I'd rather have a baseline of acceptance that can potentially be exploited by some unfair inclusion, than risk excluding anyone with an approach that is baseline exclusionary with exceptions made for people's disabilities. Innocent until proven guilty rather than the other way around, so to speak.

its shocking to me how much you push the production of your essays every time. looking forward to more as always!

The only thing I would have added here is a bit about how some people may just prefer how Hitbox feels. How much we value that is debatable of course. Great video!

I want to say the presentation was great but so much of your final arguments were colored with so much bias. In your running argument, a leverless would be better new sneakers, not a bike. In every sport there is multiple updates of peripherals. Baseball uses bats of new materials they don’t only use wooden ones. I think the beauty of fighting games is in out thinking your opponent, being caught up on how they did it, is just an excuse and a shameful way to gatekeep.

I got one of the earliest hitboxes because it was an upgrade from the keyboard I learned fighting games on; amusingly the fact the buttons were bigger and clickier made a distinct kinaesthetic difference to the experience of playing - it felt more like drumming with your fingers. I would never have attended a tournament if I had to use an arcade stick but could on a hitbox; does that have some value? Yeah, some. Was it also obvious that arcade sticks were a *less good* way of controlling most characters? Yeah. A subset of the hardest stuff in many FGs is about timing in any case rather than input efficiency (although they are related) - eg timing 1f links in sf4 is hard with any input method - though the design of recent FGs has moved very much away from that. My broad feeling is sort out the edge cases with SOCD and game specific issues and until there's a really major issue it's mostly minor enough of an advantage that it's not going to affect things too much. If you take a player like punk on his controller putting up the results he does - it's relatively clear raw input efficiency gains aren't enough to destroy things. Games like SFV and VI have, in any case, tried to make inputs easy enough to hit that input efficiency is less of a marginal advantage. RE: ultra low-latency setups. Ultimately input latency is inherently a feature of whatever version of the technology not of the underlying logical structure of the game itself (slightly muddied by input latency being a result of implementation choices in code that are a result of hardware but you can see the rough direction of this argument). The intuitive idea that one should be able to react AT THE SPLIT SECOND you realise what is happening is both understandable and desirable; the main difficulty noted in the video is that it is exclusionary to have it as the de facto standard due to cost, but it seems reasonably obvious that in the limiting case - play x game with zero input latency or some, the zero input latency version is more satisfactory to interact with. So really it's just a question of "is it an appropriate standard to have *right now*" rather than "input latency doesn't really matter". Games are about matching intent to action as closely as the limitations of not being literally melded into the game allows - this is a fairly straightforward extension of that logic.

Besides the main point, I just really appreciate the production throughout the video, from the 3d renders of the Astro City Cab, MAS, Snackbox Micro up to the PCBs like the SOCD cleaner and the Pico Board as well as the green screened gameplay! Just discovered your channel and it's an instant sub for me, looking forward to your next videos!

Nice work. Best way to have people watch your shit takes is through a strong presentation.

i think the accessibility argument is really strong, but i like how you argue it in terms of sports requiring standards. i feel like hitboxes are less of a corked bat and more like an improvement in safety gear. joysticks are beautiful, but they can blast hands. my brother played american football in high school and college, and he suffers from injuries sustained because of the misuse of helmets as safety gear; players would hit their helmets together in tackles, which is naturally problematic for neck health. similarly (but of course not nearly as equal to my anecdote), joysticks can destroy wrists. i think keeping leverless controllers, not as a efficiency thing but as a safety thing, is really important to make sure we keep quality players playing the game. ultimately, execution still takes a lot of effort; the trade off to keep people from nuking their hands is worth it to me.

One thing you skipped over in the injury discussion is that some people have disabilities that make using certain controllers impossible. If leverless controllers let them compete, that's a good thing. I agree that Devs need to account for SOCD.

A really great video! You made really great points, and, as others have mentioned, blew me away with the visuals of the video. Some points that weren't mentioned that I think are important to consider in the discussion of controller types and why I don't agree with "joysticks are not long for this world" - Firstly, there are reasonable arguments for certain motions/inputs that are still objectively easier on a joystick than an all-digital 4 button setup. Due to how diagonals are input, half-circles, up to 360s, and more in-depth motions (while not as common, are still around, especially in older games) are objectively harder on all-button, since they're designed with the joystick in mind. As an example, SF6 blanka's heavy punch into his install level 2 or Rainbow Roll (2x qc back, half-circle back respectively). It's a lot hardrr to consistently time the inputs on all-button, since you "have" to hit the diagonals to make it count, which involves timing both the pressing and letting go of the directions rhythmically. Whereas with a joystick, it's a fluid motion, that isn't objectively easier, but is way simpler and can be more consistent starting out. And don't even get me started on kof's qc into half-circle super motions. Sure, you can "shortcut" those inputs, but those shortcuts can be patched out if necessary, and they're still designed at their core with a joystick or analogue stick in mind. Second, pure taste - there is tangibly a difference in experience between joystick and leverless and controller, and i think that'll always be key component keeping all three as realistic options for any player. Unless the game leans into controller specifically (like the MK series), the tangible feeling and engagment of a joystick, a leverless, a controller with a d-pad or analogue stick being used can still play an important part in playerbase choice. It all hinges on "efficiency" and "competition" versus "fun factor" and "enjoyment". I swapped from controller to a joystick because i was more consistent (less dropped motions), i switched to all-button because it felt more natural (i've been a pc gamer for a decade), and i've recently dove back inro joystick because it's just, imo, more fun and engaging to control that way. It "feels" right to me. Sure, i could theoretically optimize beyond belief to try and eek out a few more wins, but at some point it turns into what makes me "better" and what gives me more satisfaction or makes me happier, and the diminishing returns of optimization settles the debate for me - i'm not just playing fighting games just to win, i'm playing tjem because they're fun, my friends and i love them.

There is a third option for why to use a leverless controller: "I like that there is a controller available that uses an input scheme I am familiar with.". Having grown up without a console, pads and sticks are virtually unusable for me, and without a Hitbox I would not be able to play fighting games at all (most keyboards are not designed for the type of multi-button inputs these games have for various reasons).

If you feel that bodily limitation and injury is just a natural part of sports, why doesn't that extend to the type of controller people use? Even if both players are using the same controller, or even control scheme or character, there are still countless other factors that will make the same things a different amount of difficulty for each player, just because of the variation from being to being. Fighting games naturally have options that create uneven amounts of difficulty between players as a part of the game, people still pick low-tiers sometimes, even pro players. We empathize with the part at the end about loving the joystick controller and anticipating missing it when it's gone, but we don't think it will ever fully go away, if nothing else specifically from people like you who have a fondness for it.

I'm pretty sure in competitive sports they are also always aiming for the highest efficiency, pushing the boundaries of rules. See sport gears, shoes and even baseball bats (your example) have changed over time.

Great video. I'm pretty old for a fighting game player at 48. I believe stick movements absolutely will cause carpal tunnel. Granted I was an electrician for 20 years, but also a Nina main on stick from Tekken 1-5. Back then the way to get optimal damage with her was butterfly combos which were rough on my wrists using stick. I ended up getting carpal tunnel and quitting in Tekken 6. Never played Tag 2. When Tekken 7 came out I picked up a pad and never looked back. Sure I can't KBD like I used to, but I still have fun. I plan on trying to make the switch to hitbox for Tekken 8. SOCD neutral cleaning is just too good. I'll be able to KBD again and execute tighter inputs. IMO it's the devs and TOs jobs to make sure their tournaments are fair. Until then if it's legal I'm going to use it if it improves my game.

Really good vid. It’s very comprehensive and balanced. I have to admit that as someone who values the consistency of leverless and has RSI in both hands I am a bit biased but I think you would be surprised just how many people have hand strain issues in the FGC. I suspect it’s more than you think. Not to mention that there are some disabilities that make using a pad nearly impossible, but a highly customised leverless controller would enable them to compete. In general, though this was very compelling and enjoyable.

I very much agree that fighting games like many competitive gaming communities. Moving towards efficiency i think, takes away something of the experience and joy of these games. Although it is worth noting that this has the benefit of allowing more people to enjoy games in ways they possibly couldn't without them.

This channel deserves all the love in this world. Great work!

What I like is when the dificulty is set by the fact I'm fighting an itelligent, strong, fallible but challenging, voluntary oponent. What I don't like is when the dificulty is set by inputs, and if I can surpase such dificulty, then the game allows me to minimize the participation of my opponent, allowing me to win by solo gaming. Yes, that means I dont like combo heavy games or overpowered moves balanced by being "hard". Its sad some people feel bad for losing the prevalence of their beloved sticks... Personally, after decades struggling trying to get better in fighting games using stick, I discovered what a relief is to play with pad or leverless. I'm so happy having a controller that finally allows me to enjoy those fast and directional heavy games without innecesary hand strain and forced dificulty in the inputs.

Great essay, really like the approach you took with this issue that appears time and time again every few months. Altough its true that part of the facination of executing demanding or hard inputs on the stick are always sick to see, and thats how the genre started using, i think one issue you didt adress was simply comodity of the user. Preference is very subjective, i know, and yes, you can make the point that a easier input method is of course be more confortable in general. But you cant also ignore those who by feeling alone, feel more comfortable with other layouts of controls. Many people started playing on pad, many newcomers decided to buy a hitbox because they didt feel comfortable to a stick or pad. And me for example, who started to play fighting games in the early 00s on my PC, didt had the money or accesibility to get a stick or controller. I started playing FGs on the keyboard, playing flash games as a introduction. Even after getting the options to buy a stick or a simple generic pad the keyboard was already years of experience and confort in my hands, something that you seem to agree, is that it sucks to obligate many players to get the time they spent completly wasted. Even after getting a Mix-box, witch was the combination of a keyboard with a arcade stick, even though the input had less delay, my hands didt get use to it, and i went back to the keyboard. A keyboard, that ALSO has many of the advantages of a hitbox. Especially if your keyboard is mechanical and not membrane. So, i think its also wise to include in the argument that your love for sticks, and how they look, feel and play, can also be true for other controller to another person. Even if "better performance" its at risk. Not to mention, the accesibilty, many players got play on stick simply because they cant, they are expensive, even more so in certain countrys like mine. Thats why i dont agree with the vision of "everyone should use sticks because that how its intended to play". Yeah, but not everyone is playing sports or practicing them with professional or approved gear, my opinion is to let the people play in whatever controller they want, because even though is true that many do it for better performance and easier execution, is also true that many do it for simple preference or inaccebility to a stick.

Controllers are instruments with which to enjoy videogames, this is resembling a lot the discourse between Classical and Electric instruments in music, it will take 100 years to understand that both have their place.

unless proven by tournament results, the advantages of leverless are grossly overstated. simple as that. maybe you can do a followup on that? in the long run, I do believe leverless will erode the "marketshare" of arcade stick users because of ergonomics (something like a Snackbox is so much easier to store/carry/travel with), but I don't think it will impact the number of pad players because pads are also easy to handle. also as a critique, I feel the sports gear argument is disingenuous since it focuses solely on equipment optimizations that has been banned by sports regulations, while many other optimizations have been allowed. sporting gear and rulesets are ever changing.

Amazing presentation as always but I really think you missed the mark on the actual content. Other people in the comments have made criticisms that I largely agree with such as the comparisons you make to traditional sports being very misrepresentative but one thing in particular that really stood out for me was you saying that execution typically doesn't get easier and it just raises the bar with things like leverless but then later on in the video you talk about how we lose the spectacle from things being made easier and I'm worried I'm missing something here but aren't they diametrically opposed? Like how can you simultaneously say "leverless doesn't make execution easier" and "it's bad that leverless makes execution easier". if the bar for execution gets raised then what is difficult enough to gain spectacle also goes up going by what your saying

Really well made content that the fgc needs more of. Great video

although last input wins was a consideration for some time, it was mostly considered unfair for the reason highlighted so the main form of SOCD cleaning pioneered by hitbox was for up to beat down and left and right turning into neutral, so a combination of the two to some extent. Also as others have highlighted, blocking in tekken is either neutral or down for low block. backdashes are simply safe!

while i agree with alot of the points you are making i think you are looking at it from a wrong angle when it comes to sports, the difference between Fighting games and for example running is that you don't use any external hardware when running the 100 meter sprint. Instead it would make more sense to look at things like Nascar, Biking, or Archery, where technology is always advancing and the highest level of competition require the highest level of hardware, but none of them are going to carry you to an easy finish. the people competing at a top level are still immensely talented, and their better gear doesn't in any way make them worse than the people that competed in the same sports 20 years ago. Even in sports that don't use external hardware, we are always coming up with more advanced training methods, specialized diets and more to make sure they stay at the highest competitive level, but none of that is taking away from their skill. If we are gonna drag a line between traditional sports and E-sports as a whole we have to understand that technology is going to come along and make certain things easier so humans can compete at a higher level at all times, and i for one think that's cool.

You got me, the last bit fucking killed me

All the emotional und subjective opinions aside, let's just talk facts. 1. Leverless enables the player to execute certain inputs easier und with higher precision compared to a stick. 2. Continuous play with a stick, a couple of hours or more in a week over decades, will damage your wrist. The human wrist isn't designed for such continous and repetetive movement. You're asking for evidance, yet the evidence is there in abudence. Maybe not exactly for Arcade stick use, but for other tasks like tennis players, factory workers etc. Repeating continuosly tasks in a frequenzy and strain for which the affected bodypart isn't designed for will damage it over time, and it highly increases the chance to devolop a chronic disease in that area. The leverless has a definitive competitive advantege over the stick. The leverless beeing the much more health-concious option though, leads to the rational conclusion, that the leverless should become the new standard, and the stick an option for those, that want to use it for their subjective reasons.

This video is a work of art comprising so many constituent works of art, it could go in an art gallery but it would make the other art in there look bad

Great vid. My only issue with it is that there's an automatic assumption that specific controllers are mainly used/chosen just for efficiency and injury related reasons, when a lot of people I know play on the peripheral they grew up with or the one they just enjoy using. Obviously this is still a discussion that should be had and there are people who do change for optimization but the way you don't address personal preference kinda irks me

The animations quality is off the charts. I thought you must have at least a million subs. You definetly got my sub now

input lag reduction is something everyone should be happy to have, it's not about pushing the envelope so much as achieving parity with the old arcade machines and their CRTs. there's a reason why melee is played on CRTs to this day. additionally, i like my snack box micro because it's small and easy to travel with, in addition to being the most efficient way to interact with the games. there's nothing more freeing than throwing a slim little controller into my backpack and having room for literally anything else i might need, over lugging around a clunky fightstick, or even a traditional hitbox which by now imo are super outdated being made so thick and heavy. i'm so glad i never have to do that again. it's also not a hypothetical that people use the joystick + dpad SOCD combo on pad. people really do these things, nuckledu being a prime example. no one is taking away your joystick! keep playing on it and focus more on the gameplay decisions your opponent is making over how they're doing them, i think you'll have more fun that way. I'm sad you're a hater but the video was good, keep it up.

You are awake that multi shines are harder than god fist right? There is a reason top players use god fist in every. single. match. But NOONE uses multishines.

Great video as always but you end it saying we should have had this conversation 10 years ago, which I hear a lot. The thing is WE DID ! I've been on hitbox for over a decade and I remember when I picked it up. Some tournaments actually banned it at the time. Obviously it is an advantage but it's been agreed upon that the advantage isn't substantial enough to warrant a ban. I understand the whole not sharing the same experience thing but acting like everything hard is "just pressing some buttons" is very reductive, playing on hitbox is easier but that doesn't mean it's always easy. I love the look and feel of stick too, the arcade culture they remind people of, I hope stick doesn't go away too but that doesn't mean we can't move on to having something new be the main way to play at high level

Damn, this was incredible. Nice work :)

Amazing quality, you deserve more views and likes

This debate of leverless is just a bunch of old guys who grew up playing in the arcades not accepting that things changed. Just as the arcade stick was a familiar choice for those who played in the arcade, the leverless is the same for people who grew up playing in the pc. I remember trying to play street fighter 4 and having a hard time executing some inputs on pad, i then played in my keyboard and instantly had a way better experience... I then bought an arcade stick, i found it was a great deal of fun, but i always found the keyboard to be better, that's why i bought the hitbox... I don't even know any shortcuts, and i couldn't care less to learn then, you can play just fine without it, and to be honest the better player still wins at the end, no matter the input method. All i have to say to the old guys in the FGC is, get good bro... The input method is not the problem. As said in the video "1-2 inputs are not making any difference in the grand scheme of things", if there's no difference, this discussion in pointless.

Amazing video! Production quality especially high! I do have an issue with your examples of cheating in other sports though. I see what you're trying to say about more efficiency not always being better, but you ignored a key difference between those examples and something like lever-less controllers. Lever-less controllers undeniably provide a significant advantage, but unlike your examples given (spring-loaded shoes, Lazer-guided dart, etc) the player is still doing all the work themselves, even if it's more efficient to do so. The actual gaming equivalent to such cheating methods would be turbo or macros, since they outright do things for you when triggered. (Also modern mode controls falls into this imo, as it completely bypasses entire inputs instantly) Using lever-less is more comparable to wearing expensive basketball shoes. Better grip, properly cushioned soles, and correct ankle support can help you accelerate faster, turn sharper, and jump higher than you could with cheaper shoes, making many techniques faster or stronger, and potentially making new ones possible that weren't otherwise without slipping or your ankles buckling. Even factoring in the large advantages of SOCD, I see no legitimate reason to ban lever-less controllers. Almost every sport has certain allowed choices that are just better than others, like equipment, formations in team sports, or simply using different techniques. No-one's gonna complain because you didn't use a scissor-kick to win high-jump. Heck, being left-handed makes table-tennis players 3X more likely to go pro, so should we ban playing left-handed in table tennis? To make matters worse, the benefit of the left handed "input method" ISN'T from making your own inputs easier. It's actively making the game HARDER for your opponents, because your weak/strong spots are reversed to the norm. Imagine if you could go to a SF6 tournament, and force everyone who plays against you to play SF5 instead. That's what playing table-tennis left-handed is like. So yeah. I think in terms of sportsmanship a better controller is the least of our worries. Sincerely, a nerd who's only ever played pad

I love your videos, specifically your editing style which most commenters seem to be dazzled by but I can't really say the content you put forward (either the correctness of it or the bias in portrayal) always hits for me (even though the videos are very entertaining to watch). For example, I struggled to understand what this video was really getting at. Was it just generic commentary on hitbox controllers? You mentioned in passing that their legality relied on pads being able to do socd style inputs which isn't accurate since that only applies to the legality of things like the crossup which has 2 sets of directional inputs available (which is probably what you're referring to and not the standard single set of udlr inputs available in stuff like hitbox, snackbox, mpress, etc). Also a lot of the narrative of the video seems to anchor itself on the speed of access to directional inputs in leverless vs pad or stick, where in reality pads and sticks have inherent advantages for people picking them up and intuitively being able to input commands that are not intuitive to a leverless controller (something you don't cover at all). One can make an argument that the fight stick is actually the worst peripheral since in technicality it offers the fewest advantages over pad and leverless while having a lot of its own drawbacks (also something you didn't cover and it seemed appropriate for this topic). Also the sidenote of comparing fighting game players with physical sports and the "if you're injured that's it I guess" is such a disingenuous comparison that I'm kind of disappointed that you (who I'm sure is very aware of why it's disingenuous) would make it in the first place. Should we expand that conversation to the fairness of real sports? A lot of real sports are inherently unfair almost by design, there are no "balance patches". I mean hell basketball hasn't had a major "balance patch" in frickkin decades. Ice Hockey players are hugely determined (or preselected) by the combination of their month of birth and the most common school schedule (sept to may) because the kids born closer to January will be the most physically developed in school and thus most likely to be recruited or trained by coaches in order to eventually make it to a major league. TLDR: competition in video games is wayyyy more fair and not even remotely comparable to real sports which are inherently unbalanced by design and said imbalance is further worsened by the selection pressure (coaches, media, professional teams, etc). Anyway, that was a lot to type out but I felt it was necessary. Thanks for the video.

the production on this is crazy. great job!

As a person who plays leverless because of my fucked up hands I was waiting to see what you would say about it but didn’t expect “fuck you, you shouldn’t get to play actually.”

28:35 - 28:57 "I think you would struggle to currently find a modern fighting game that is inherently crippled when it comes to input lag" Sakurai punching the air bc SSBU isn't considered a modern fighting game Also y'all remember the -acendhigher launch option on the steam release of Skullgirls? lmao Edit: 29:34 Is he trying to say doing 40 multishines in a row is easy?

Absolutely amazing video Truly don't think anything out there so beautifully touches upon this subject

I believe the best realistic solution is for devs to account for leverless controlers to put them on par with classic controlers. I'm currently doing it in the fighting game I'm working on (NASB2). Partially because leverless controlers are already widely adopted, and partially because keyboars are already the default controler for PC players. As someone who got into fighting games through Melee I started out with pads and then moved on to a hitbox to minimize latteral finger movements. I even dislike 6-button games because I can't rest a finger on each button (unless I'm playing on keyboard where I use my left pinkie).

As someone who gave away my fightstick to a friend and got a snackbox micro, I agree. I didn't get the snackbox to "be better," it certainly has made me better, but thats more the ease of use. Even using a gamepad is extremely foreign to me, as someone who has always used keyboards for everything (on pc). I got to a pretty high rank in GGST with a keyboard (didnt hit celestial though before mostly moving to BBCF), and when I got my own stick, it was nice but it felt even more foreign to me than a gamepad. I stuck with my keyboard still and let the stick collect dust before finally deciding to bite the bullet and get a snackbox micro, when I sent the stick to a friend who was just getting into the FGC. Since then, I've used this thing for everything that could be reasonably done with the box, fighting game or not. I don't know if it gives me an advantage, and I don't care. Unless I keep grinding and get to top 16 at evo, it won't make any difference. A shitter is still a shitter, stick or box. If some new stick comes out that is more effective than box, I wouldn't get it. If boxes are forced to get some software that makes them practically unusable to most people, I would still use them. If boxes are banned entirely, I will bring my keyboard. If leverless is banned entirely, I'll find other games. Leverless is how I know the games I play, it's the only way that makes sense for my hands. And while I agree that it sucks that the way I play is "objectively better" than other controllers, it still doesn't change anything for me. Also if you actually do read this comment this far in, opinions on the anklegator box?

There's a hilarious amount of bad faith arguments in this video.

I think what you miss here is that low success rate is not the same as "difficult". Every game must decide what skills it is going to require and what skills it isn't going to require. Accessibility is about eliminating requirements that the player isn't supposed to need. That might sound a little abstract so let me give some examples: - Running a marathon is about physical fitness and ability, which is why we don't allow bikes - First person shooters tend to be about aim, which is why we don't allow aim bot However, if somebody had a vision impairment that made it hard for them to see the track, most people would agree it's fine to add lights or tape to the marathon so they could run it. That's because the marathon isn't supposed to test your vision, that's not what it's about. The reason we've made quarter circle inputs easier over the years isn't because we think we can make everything easy and have nothing require a high level of skill. We made motion inputs easier because you're not supposed to be unable to throw a fireball. It's about whether or not you can space it properly, your risk reward tolerance, when to use it, and if you can do it fast enough. For controller latency specifically, the question isn't about whether it would give an advantage. The real question is: If you're only losing because your controller is laggy, are you the worse player? Is accounting for latency what fighting games are "about"? Is that part of the intended skillset? I think it's not. As for hitboxes and stuff, I don't have many ideas on how to even the playing field considering how different certain inputs are, but maybe they could do something like what modern controls do. If hitboxes net you wins 20% more often, maybe hitbox players take 20% more damage in-game. Who knows what the future will hold, but hopefully I at least gave you a different way of looking at things.

Honestly the animation alone on this video are spectacular. This is great thank you for your contribution!

This effort in the visuals just make me inmediately subscribe

Great video. I do wanna add that if the unlevel playing field of the stick, pad, and leverless controller landscape is something community figureheads and developers are truly concerned about, we should just standardize rules towards a first input priority instead of socd neutral cleaning. Levels users would be taking a hit, but they would still have unique advantages over other options. I think that more options for different ways of play to suit different players’ preferences are a good thing

So happy to hear the ThorHighHeels beat at the end. Great video

Wow this was masterfull, thank you for your work🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

This is incredibly well made holy shit

Honestly think developers could have solved this by forcing reminders to stretch your hands occasionally

Very good video, interesting stuff and also really good visuals. Keep it up!

the editing and presentation is amazing

epic epic! best video I have seen on this topic so far easily.

You made some really interesting arguments but I feel you didn’t do justice to the accessibility angle. First of all, PC gaming is getting bigger and bigger, and the pack-in controller for your PC is your keyboard. The keyboard is a leverless controller, so we already have more and more people coming into the scene for the first time on a leverless controller through online who will never come out to in-person tournaments if they’re forced to learn a wildly different control scheme. As far as ergonomics are concerned, there’s reasons to care about ergonomics beyond “is it guaranteed to injure me” flat leverless controllers are more comfortable and reduce strain for all people, although to be honest, accessibility for people with motor disabilities should really be enough. Finally I think the reasons you gave that someone might say they like their snackbox micro aren’t really accurate to the answers you’d hear if you asked actual players. That thing is popular primarily because it’s so portable. It literally fits in a purse, which is something no stick could reasonably do. Even setting that aside I think things like “I like tapping buttons” and “it’s really comfortable to use” would be up there with “it’s easy to use” in terms of the most common answers.

What I really hope for, and this is inherently difficult I understand, is for the inherent advantages of leverless to be be reduced, and leverless controllers to continue to be allowed, because I do think that people having more options for play is strictly better than fewer. The specfic example of an injured runner not being able to use a bike is an illustrative exaggerated example, but the question has come up in a legitimate context with amputee runners and blades. It was argued that the accomodation actually gave the amputee runners an advantage, and that was far from an open, shut discussion.

Here's a random thought: Would "first input wins" work? Just ignoring the second input, even after the first is released? I think ergonomics is something to consider deeper though? I think that people should not be forced to be forced out of their livelihood because of injury. That's something we _don't_ need to bring over from sports.

and herein we find an incredibly underrated channel

You can do the SOCD stuff on pads too, you just need to use the analog stick as well. Several pros use this for specific moves. Fighting games should have always been thinking about SOCD from the moment that they started releasing on consoles and accepted inputs from both the Dpad and analog stick. Yes, it's alot more accessible than the pad when it's in button form, I agree, but if something was so messed up about SOCD that it would warp the game, pad players could learn how to do it too.

12:54 Lets not forget pads often have an analog stick and a dpad.

Fantastic video! I just wanted to provide my thoughts as someone who began playing fighting games after leverless controllers had seen widespread popularity. I began playing fighting games less than 5 years ago in my freshman year of high school, where a senior I met had introduced me to Guilty Gear XRD. I thought it was the sickest shit ever so I immediately went home and bought it on my laptop. I had almost zero clue of what the standard was for competitive play, so I just practiced on what was most convenient for me: my keyboard. While I would eventually switch to a leverless controller in order to play with people in person, it was not done at all with intention of having more consistent and efficient input device, but more because it resembled what I was most familiar with. I found your video to be fascinating, as it gives me further insight on a perspective far different than mine. I'd also like to mention that I come from Super Smash Bros Melee, where one of its largest draws is it's inherently analog beauty. This question exists as well within Melee, with many recently beginning to use Melee's version of a Hit Box style controller. Something that's excited me a lot recently is the development of an analog box controller, where the controller accounts for how far down a movement button is being pressed. This allows people who prefer this style input device (ergonomics is a far worse issue in Melee, due to its ridiculously high APM and the terrible ergonomics of a GameCube controller) to interact with Melee's analog nature. This also appeases many members of the community who dislike the "teleporting inputs" that a traditional box controller allows you to do. While it isn't a perfect solution, I definitely think it's very exciting and cool. Great video :) eagerly looking forward to more!

It's actually absured that you don't have more views/subscribers yet. Happily just joined the Patreon! Good luck and good job!

naw your animations are god tier, instant sub

This is a super well made thing that will inevitably unpopular because of it's viewpoint.

I have been in around the FGC since OG Hitbox was introduced, and while it quickly became controversial, it was niche as the video stated. If history was different, we would still have leverless, we would still have leverless, though not as mature as the market is currently. Because of migration of console to PC over the past decade, keyboards would eventually be adopted, with some form of leverless controller available to accommodate these players. It would have been a repeat of the Pad situation that the FGC had to address when the SFIV 09's brought their pads to there first events. Hitbox may have hasten leverless arrival and set the layout standard, regardless, Leverless is inevitable.

This video is beautiful the animations are insanely good

Yes, you are right, and we should also return to running marathons with sandals or barefoot. Yes sir, what came first was always the better thing. Yes sir, GAMES should be harder so that less people can get in and enjoy with friends and the developers can sell less and we all end with bigher chances to get carpal tunnel syndrome between levers and our daily jobs. It is so easy to say "injuries happen" when you didn't get injured. Hope you never do. And if you do get injured, remeber your words.

I'll just say that keyboard allowed me to enter FG's because I didn't need to buy anything more to play, also you gotta admit that ergonomic wise the leverless clearly wins, and longterm i prefer to be able to play as good as i was able to at the start, see some Smash Melee dudes and their hands after years of gamecube controller action

Incredible video as always

you definitely earned a subscription and like from me. The presentation is amazing!!

I think the argument against leverless falls flat when pad is so common and so regularly tops events. Hell Sonic Fox, the player with the most majors wins in fgc history, is exclusively a pad player. Edit: And sticks aren't going anywhere. They're consistently topping and always will.

Subbed because of that sick 720!

I've been using leverless and I never considered skipping the inbetween motions to get a super out. I will probably continue to do so because it's more interesting to play it like a piano than just 4 buttons.

That standing 720 was so sick holy shit, wait what was this video about again?

This is Core A Gaming levels of polish. You earned a sub for sure.

I really enjoyed the breakdown of the discussion around recent innovations in fighting games. I can appreciate how much effort you put into covering almost every aspect of the topic. So it was disappointing that you resulted to an oversimplified strawman for why someone might prefer modern controls or a leverless. In fact almost everything to do with supporting leverless is discussed in bad faith. I'm not sure I fully understand your response to hypothetical answer A, that the value of the more efficient option only exists because that option is not the standard. Your tone suggests it's some sort of counter point but the statement itself is just a neutral observation of fact. Yes, the value of a different option would be different if that option was the standard rather than a deviation. Really though, it's the hypothetical answer B that I take issue with. By conflating many possible reasons into an antagonistic "it lets me win more" you completely skip any nuance to the discussion. "I'm able to win more because it's easier to execute my choices" should be a conversation starter, not something to be critical of. Is it a bad thing that players are able to more effectively make and execute decisions? Is the competitive floor being raised by these options an issue? Are impressive executions only impressive because of our choice of peripheral or is there a lot more to it? Your primary counter point, that the more efficient options would diminish the value of the hard work it takes to play these games, is short sighted. It assumes the ceiling on fighting games is fixed and can go no higher while also treating the new methods as a shortcut that cheapens the work we put into these games. Is there a problem with the ceiling being raised at the highest levels by the best players using new tools? You're effectively saying that everyone who plays on leverless or uses modern controls is doing it wrong. I'm not sure if that was the actual message of the video but that was my takeaway and I just fundamentally disagree.

The 3d models are beautifully. Reminds me of no more heroes.

Your channel is amazing

Rubbish is not arguing that players who cannot play on stick due to disability or discomfort should be excluded. He's lamenting that we did not seek out an alternative to leverless that would mitigate the Hitbox's inherent advantages. I think Rubbish’s argument is that other competitive sports have standardized equipment, so ideally fighting games should’ve followed that same vein. Allowing for peripherals that abuse exploits in the game’s input system just shifts the goalpost for execution, which ultimately hurts the competitive integrity of the game by making the developers dumb down execution at the software level, or implement inclusive game design (like modern controls). He acknowledges that by allowing button macros and leverless controllers, we opened Pandora’s box, and it’s futile to try to “go back” to the arcade days. Trying to ban leverless controllers now would be horribly unfair to the players who have devoted their time and income to those peripherals. Personally, I’m sure somebody could design an ergonomic controller that doesn’t have individual discrete movement buttons, thus allowing players with disabilities to play without having the ability to skip neutral (teleport inputs, as Rubbish calls it). However, there’s no point in creating that peripheral now since we made Hitbox legal 10 years ago.

It is an interesting topic, and possibly if fighting games keep growing at the rate that they are we could divisions of competitive play for different peripherals. I do like the comparison to other sports as physical performance, however, since video games are linked to evolving technology. It only makes sense to change the way we engage. What was once difficult is more standard but since fighting games have such a depth there are more players that can focus on the great depth of the games we enjoy. As far as catering to people who have wrist injuries, I strongly believe the use of lever less controllers will reduce the amount of dedicated players becoming injured. I switched to using a keyboard, after being a stick and controller player, because it caused me pain to consistently do dash cancels before the patch in SF6 that made it a button input. I was able to get over that barrier and then move into more advanced development into the game. if you are going to compare video games to a sports look at the baseball glove in the 1900s, football before pads, Wooden tennis rackets, or running shoes. fighting games is still relatively young in the scheme of competitive sports, and I have no doubt that there will more changes to come. Rubbish Thank you for taking the time to make this video it is encouraging to see people who are passionate about competitive nature of fighting games.

every 10+ year player who cant win their locals loves to cry about hitboxes

Good thoughts, interesting to think about since im new to the community. Ive pretty much only used leverless since ive started playing not that long ago. They are really comfortable compared to pad and keyboard, the other option in had easy access to when trying put different configurations. I think there are other solutions to the issues you presented with leverless, or at least help a few of them. It seems like it would be a good idea to make it so, if an input gets cleaned, it needs to be reinputed on neutral sodc cleaning. Just would completely get rid of the kbd issue. Alot of the guys i talk to at my locals also mention that a big benefit to their leverless is the portability. And i agree with that too! That level of, i guess i would call it efficiency, lets me play with real people more than I would normally. Its interesting that OP thinks about what controller is used, and how it's used. Maybe im just too new, but i rarely think about input methods for other players I might have to buy a stick when i get some extra cash and give it a shot I forgot one last thing. The point on injury is kinda shitty, not to mention wrong. There have been Olympic athletes who competed using mobility aids, specifically running prosthetics. I also think that if a competition can be designed to be more accessible, and still fair, than it should be. I don't think the difference between as stick/pad and leverless is nearly as much as a person running and a bicycle.

Controllers are okay because it is consoles default option Keyboards are not okay cause it gives advantages even though its computers default option