The Hitbox Rant 

In case you guys aren't fully aware of how PS4 pad already breaks all the arcade stick rules, here's a quick video showing how the flood gates have been burst open for years: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RFFu351TE60.html

"So I don't know, man, I don't know, I just feel like, shut the fuck up" ~ Brian_F, 2022 Truly an inspirational quote for the ages. Great rant, 10/10

I learned the game on a hitbox style controller. I tried stick and I couldn't wrap my head (or hand coordination) around it. I tried a pad and my thumbs can't keep up with the motion inputs. The hitbox just resonated with me. If it weren't for hitbox controllers, I wouldn't be playing SF or any fighting game.

Not enough people are mentioning keyboards (which are essentially hitboxes) tbh. PC has become much bigger, with some major fighting games like Tekken and GG having bigger playerbases on there. I can guarantee you that way more people are playing fighting games on keyboard nowadays than they do on stick, and banning that would be pretty similar to banning pads back when consoles took over arcades. What I agree with is that the game should be the one to decide what happens when you press 2 opposite inputs simultaneously. In Tekken for example, holding back and forward results in neutral by default.

Hitbox resonates very well with a whole generation who's been playing FGs on PC with bare minimum equipment (keyboard). It's unthinkable to Japanese or westerners because they have a strong arcade culture, but there are places like East/Southeast Asia and South Korea, where Internet cafes and PC bangs are more common alternatives to game in. Disregarding hitbox/keyboard also means cutting off these parts of the world and their people out of the FGC. In GGStrive, people from SEA and SKorea having to find games in Japan server is all too common, because their local scene is already tiny.

It's actually a skill floor, since you have to practice a certain amount just to use the thing. A skill ceiling refers to when something can't be improved on once mastered because you hit the ceiling where skill stops affecting performance.

Motion inputs are definitely more intuitive on stick, but hit box provides much better feedback. On stick, I often find myself wondering how I messed up a particular input because I can't feel where each switch inside the stick activates/deactivates, where as on hit box I can usually feel what I'm doing wrong because I can see and feel my fingers as they press the buttons.

He's optimazing his hitbox guys

Thank you for pointing out that the Hitbox's out of box SOCD resolution is neutral input. To many people think you can actually press left/right at the same time, and send that input to the game. You can't without modding your firmware.

I love my arcade stick. That said, people need to stop this nonsense. Every single time anything other than an arcade stick comes about, people want to call it “cheating.”

I remember when I was much younger around 2015 when I first got into fighting games I played skullgirls on my laptop keyboard I ended up having issues going to my friends houses to play because I never used pad. so I ended up purchasing a stick due to me asking another friend who understood way more about fighting games than I did whether I should get a hitbox or a stick since I thought keyboard muscle memory would apply much more easily to hitbox, and they told me to go for a stick so I did. It sucked, I could barely do anything and regretted my purchase for so long, but eventually got used to it. Even then I found that stick still feels unnatural to me but it felt better than pad. Years later I found out that the friend just hated hitbox part of the whole "cheatbox" crowd. I ended up trying out keyboard again and it felt fine still, so I went and purchased a hitbox and while some things were much harder due to the experience on stick I garnered over the years, tons of the inputs I was used to on keyboard were still there and it felt overall better for me to play. It only makes me hate the whole "cheatbox" angle because it's a device that can genuinely feel better for some people and for the people like me who were used to keyboard, not having a good option to play locally on a console would be kinda shitty. Hitbox just makes sense, doing Ranbu's in kof feels odd but getting clean dragon punches feels a lot better and I'm very willing to take that trade. Hell I find quarter circles a lot easier on it too, on stick I'd end up doing half circles when I wanted a quarter circle because It just wasn't my thing. The idea that it's an illegitimate way to play the game and wanting it banned is just goofy, and gatekeeping for the individuals who genuinely just like it, it's also just corny as hell.

I hope they never ban Hitbox cuz it’s a perfect OS when losing, I’ll never have to own up to my own shortcomings as long as I can go “GGs cheatbox user”

It's interesting mentioning the intuitiveness of trying to use a hitbox for the first time and I totally agree, I had to basically memorize the order in which my fingers move up and down and which buttons to press in that sequence which was hard af for me at first, eventually you build those neurons but for complex motions and entire combos, it's a lot of work to wrap your head around it

As a keyboard player, I agree that letting the software decide in cases of SOCD should be the solution. It's crazy to me that the CPT rules differ from the game's own engine. I'm a little upset knowing that I could be doing the same inputs as a hitbox player on my keyboard and getting different inputs in game.

I immediately came in here when I seen that IIDX controller on the thumbnail 🤣. I always like to hear your thoughts and explanations because you always bring good info to the situation. Thanks for the video and keep up the good work!

All the unfair advantages of leverless controllers are resolved if the SOCD is set to "First-input Controlled Priority." That eliminates instant blocking (skipping neutral) when walking forward, eliminates fast walking back and forth (skipping neutral), and eliminates crouching Flash Kicks (skipping neutral). For modern fighting games with SOCD, design the software to be set to First-input Controlled Priority and ban any hardware setting that's not set to Natural or No Resolution. For older fighting games with No Resolution SOCD, have the hardware set to First-input Controlled Priority, ban the rest of the settings. Problem solved. Required reading here: www.hitboxarcade.com/blogs/support/what-is-socd

As someone who made the change to a leverless controller a couple of months ago, the "posture" of playing on stickless is very important, but if you get it correct it is tremendously less impact on your wrists and forearms. Most of the older folks I know in the FG scene have all gone to stickless for ergonomics.

Here's the fundamental question, does the developer intended for super to be executed with only 4 frames? If they do, then hitbox is not cheating. If they don't then it's a cheat or at best an exploit.

I haven’t made it through the whole video yet, but I really am appreciating this approach. I started as a pad player, then stick, and now hitbox. I’ve never thought about leaving the game engine to handle things to level the playing field. Good food for thought!

I think it's actually pretty easy to draw a line here and I think that line ought to be drawn at adding extra ways to input the same thing strictly for the purpose of removing execution barriers, such as with the infamous hitbox crossup stick. You want to use buttons instead of a stick? Cool. Keys or even a full keyboard? Go for it. But when you're adding an *extra* down button above your usual right hand buttons exclusively for the purpose of something like completely nullifying the execution of performing electrics in Tekken, then you've gone too far. The usual argument here is to compare it to a pad which has both an analog stick & a d-pad, but the difference is that it's highly impractical to use both those things on a pad, and it's not designed for you to do so. Whereas with the crossup, the entire point of the design is to design the controller in a way that allows you to completely circumvent intentional execution difficulty.

Another thing about hitbox support is that hitbox support is keyboard support, and keyboard support makes fighting games accessible to a lot of people, so they can just pick up a game without having to buy an expensive controller to play it.

Nobody should be complaining especially since BrolyLegs is able to compete at the level he is at. It's what you're comfortable with and your skill at the game.

"If this is not how the game is meant to be played then the developers will have to develop around this" there are bans stages, bans some costumes, just in this game. in other games, there are character bans, strategies bans, items bans... and etc etc etc. "let the developers decide..." so First to 1 in every tournament about the speed just remember Streetfighter IV in 3ds, very fast to "execute" And also the examples with the control pads are also very weak. You can do it, but is so hard that the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense. The argument doesn't change in a control pad or stick you cannot do the same that you can in a hitbox Also explain that while are you learning you have to think very deeply before executing, that happens to everyone when are learning a new technic, at the begging is hard to execute a dragon punch, but at some point, you just do it. This one is a kind of weak argument but, I guess U.S.A citizens can afford them, but so f*cking expensive. In the U.S.A there are tournaments with prize money that maybe make sense to buy one, in other countries costs millions plus the money to travel to U.S, hotel, food, and Visa.

The funny thing is that using Hitbox is a lot like driving Standard Transmission. It's easy, unless you EVER think about what you're doing. As soon as you stop to think about the inputs again, you're done.

To give a bit more clarity on what Aris said, he compared hitbox to a corked baseball bat. A mediocre baseball hitter may not get that much advantage from a corked bat but a great baseball hitter will. So as long as there is an advantage that hitbox has over a stick then it doesn’t the amount of learning curve. Great players will overcome that and will have a competitive advantage. However, despite his belief that hitboxes (and d-pads) are cheating, Aris still feels that competitors should use whatever advantage they have (within the rules).

Man, this is almost like if there was a competitive scene with rhythm games, the ones that use dance mats and taiko drum controllers would ban other people from using keyboards and gamepads. After writing that, having all those 4 options in different leagues does make an amount of sense, so that was a bad comparison. But reminds me of how the speedrunning scene does often list what hardware and software version the runner was using. Things like how the PC and console versions can be very different, sometimes different enough to be their own categories on the leaderboards. Sometimes the differences are considered tiny enough that they are on the same leaderboard, but it is noted down if the runner was using an actual NES or a more accessible emulator. I imagine that the different controllers in hypothetical competitive rhythm game tournaments would be placed in different categories, similar to how shooters in most cases probably have different matchmaking for player bases that use mouse+keyboard and the ones that use pad. Anyways, even if one controller is clearly superior to the other, I feel like that it shouldn't be completely alienated from the whole scene. To me it's slightly amusing that the Smash Bros community is still primarily using gamecube controllers, seemingly oddly stuck to their old ways of the Melee version of the series. I think that people are still allowed to use one single wii-mote or joy-con when entering tournaments, although it is sort of considered trolling. Sort of reminds me that Nintendo consoles probably don't have any fightstick support by default. Otherwise I'm not sure what that scene would look like, hahah. Would be a neat little alternate timeline. Anyways, that became a lengthier wall of text than I imagined. Anyways, I believe that the two main controllers discussed in the video are equal enough. And even if one of them was superior, I feel like the community shouldn't maybe go full "reject modernity, embrace tradition" route. Hmm, I guess there's budget reasons too. Which I'm not an expert on, but if my memory serves, the prices of the options are something like keyboard>gamepad>fightstick>hitbox? And as has been brought up, I think that keyboard functions almost similarly to a hitbox, if not exactly so, at least with this SOCD situation. Anyways, I believe that the game/software itself should be the deciding factor on how those are handled. Also makes me wonder if the fight stick could be remapped for the heck of it. Lever for kicks and punches etc, the right side buttons for movement, hahah. Anyways, I've probably ran out of things to scattermindedly list, at least for now. Personally was just surprised to learn that some hardass-elitists consider the thing a big issue.

21:39 I'm one of those. Feels great that a strong player like you understood that. I've switched to hitbox mainly to be able to play multiple games with a single device. I've thrown all my arcade stick dexterity in the bin to start anew. I'm losing with people that i used to wash without even try but i don't care. I just want to learn and achieve one day a par or better performance of the one i had on stick while grinding the experience. Thanks brian

yo mad respect thumbnail with the IIDX controller bro, rhythm game of the gods going forward with fighting games, hitbox / mixbox will have to be considered by devs now and i agree it's hard to jump from stick to hitbox , my left ring finger is weak asf

"hitbox is not intuitive" meanwhile, me , a keyboard warrior.

The arguments I can think as to why the SOCD at hardware level works the way it does right now are: 1. Older games don't handle pressing Left + Right at the same time very well (Blocking both ways in vanilla MVC3), so the hardware makes it always be Neutral to have consistency on any game you play. 2. In games where you can't skip any cardinal directions to do Half-Circle motions (Mainly older titles like, Super Turbo, Guilty Gear +R, etc.), it is extremely hard to get the whole motion to register, specially if you want to do it fast. In that case, since L+R = N, you can roll your finger and press L+D+R to get a forced Down input. It helps A LOT with consistency in those games. 3. For Down + Up = Up - It also helps A LOT in games where you need to super jump and do fast inputs (Any Marvel game that has triangle jumping). Since hitbox is also for people who have some sort of physical issues with their hand, wrists, etc. Making things that are inherently difficult on this type of device but are free on any other, seems like a good idea to me. Remember that not every game has charge characters or Flashkick motions and people still use hitbox in those games.

I've been playing KOF13 casually on my keyboard where I bound jump to spacebar, and one of the hardest trials was lp>lk>3hp>double hcb - those first 3 attacks have the startup of a jab. A lot of the other trials are about memorization, figuring out which specials are drive cancelled, and learning link timings, but this trial is just, can you put your normals in the hcbs and still finish with the super? Perhaps I'm just not used to doing clean half circles with normals inside, but this is one of the few trials where I thought, "I wish I had a stick to try and see if that makes this trial easier"

I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea that the software should determine what form of SODC is used. I think the biggest issue stick players have is that it's physically impossible to hold 2 directions on a stick. Add to that the fact that when you hold left and right on a hitbox and let go of one of them it counts that as pressing the direction you're still holding. What I think the beef here is, is that certain motions in fighters are themselves part of the balance of certain moves, and the devs haven't realized they're not making arcade games anymore. On a keyboard, pad or hitbox, you can do a walkbalk Ryu super, or dp, and still block. This messes with the balancing of the move as you're not supposed to be able to block while doing these things. At the end of the day though, it's on the devs to figure this out. If something can be done on one form of input, you can't really ban other controllers that do the same thing.

Curious what your thoughts are on alternate SOCD options. I have a raspberry pico fight board that offers a "last input wins" option. So if I press and hold these 3 buttons [right, down and then left] the final input would be down left. On one hand I find certain motion controls stupid easy (like Strives ultimates halfcircle-back-forward) but I don't have access to all the "tricks" associated with the traditional SOCD options. It also makes the most intuitive sense, I pressed the button I wanted last (most recently)

The reason why Hitbox has hardware SOCD to make back forward into neutral is so that you can't hold back and tap forward punch to throw sonic boom. If it wasn't set to neutral and it used the in game SOCD you could throw sonic booms without ever letting go of the back input. This can still be done on keyboard because it has no hardware SOCD.

Hey Brian, this might not help as it does feel awkward at first but for the cr.short, cr.jab hit grab combo start at down forward for the normals and then just roll to back and punch. That combo went from weirdly difficult to super easy once I got used to that. Great video BTW! Nice to see someone approach this issue thoughtfully instead of coming at it with pure emotion and nostalgia.

"It's like he's pondering his orb." that's fuckin hilarious.

It's always good to step out of your comfort zone and try things. I think, ultimately, that the best controller really is whichever one you can best use, so long as it's also a legal one(unless you don't tourney!)

damn hitbox getting some good publicity over this controversy

Brian, what made you choose the Hitbox over the Snack Box Micro? With the release of the Snack Box Micro XL would you still choose the Hitbox over it?

Rant or not, this needed to be said. Whether you're on pad, stick or box they all have advantages and disadvantages. I absolutely love things the way they are.

It's funny to me that I have the reverse problem. Playing with mixbox was easy for me because I come from a keyboard background. The transition to stick and pad is hell. I think environment has a bigger role to play in what device is more comfortable than which inputs are easier on which device.

i play rhythm games, mostly VSRGs, so leverless controllers and their motions are extremely intuitive for me. also i do agree, that the issue should be solved on the software level, the controller shouldn't need to have special SOCD logic.

About your finger pain, have you tried never removing the fingers from the buttons? I've noticed your hand hovers quite a bit over it, probably due to how a stick is usually higher than the base of the wood, which forces you to do a lot more movement whenever you're, say, switching from left to right (tilting hand). If you use it like a keyboard with four buttons and your fingers are always touching the buttons, you'll have fingers which are dedicated to certain directions (good for training muscle memory) and you'll also have less movement overall (good for speed, consistency, and should reduce pain as fingers will move less distances). If the pain continues, you could also look into lower actuation force buttons.

of course Hitbox motions have geomotry: simply imagine a curved non euclidian space

Brian, let me give you a huge heads up: the problem is the ring finger. It is not wired for independent movement the way index, middle, and thumb are. Move jump to your ring finger, and it should be a lot easier. Thumb should be down direction, right should be index finger; left should be middle finger The thumb is your strongest/most independent digit and it is wasted on jump which is the cardinal direction used least.

This is the only intelligent discussion on this topic I’ve seen thus far

Just make inputs drop completely if the game detects SOCD. QED. If it's equally as trivial on both pad and hitbox, then both should be equally impacted, right?

i love you man but way you dont show us this when do you buy the hitbox? after all video on internet to late to show us

I completely agree. Hardware logic here sounds like modding the controller. All logics should be decided by the game. Else it's like hacking by taking a workaround to do stuff

I've said this a million times this last week. ASD + Spacebar should not be banned. Period. Now, SOCD cleaners should be banned. The games should decide. As it stands now, the game NEVER decides what to do with SOCDs because it NEVER sees the SOCDs. So in my opinion THIS is the solution. Ban the cleaners. Or have a tournament lockout switch that disables it. And I think Brian is the FIRST person to provide the correct answer.

If Rob ever has this Hitbox panel it’s gonna be another blow up. You summed everything up

Great video, love ya content. One counter point though: I don’t think you addressed the other side of Aris argument: policing cheating. You touched on hit box could make “cheating easier”. But the second part is how is cheating going to be effectively policed? You pointed out there different rules for CPT and other games have different standards. The fact it’s not standardized brings up some concerns. I don’t play sfv at in person tournaments but I doubt the ps4 set ups have a way to detect if a player is actually using a macro when they plug in. And if they’re 20 mid/low level players that use a controller that has a macro the TO is not incentivized to ban 20 people from a tournament missing out on significant venue fee and putting a divide in the community for banning suspicious hitboxes.

WASD out here being the best of both worlds

I love the faces you make when you are debating an argument that you consider borderline dumb hahahaha. Such a clever video, man. I've played on pc keyboard for 2 years now and some stuff like half circles are HARD to do. But still, I just love it haha

Bro, just had a discussion with a player in the comments on another video. He say players shouldn't even be allowed to compete on a regular keyboard. They are just angry that they aren't winning.

Can you option select block a ambiguous cross up by plinking left and right at the same time?

You and Aris really helped put some things into perspective. Thanks for the awesome videos, Brian. I don't give af at all about Street Fighter but you're a great content creator and resource for anyone who wants to get better at their games.

me playing fg's with a hitbox-style layout (keyboard), it feels like playing a 2d platformer lmao. idk if that makes sense but it's very intuitive for me as a guy who grew up playing everything on pc with a kb

I agree that a lot of the weird techniques that happen on Buttonbox are a software issue rather than a hardware one, and it does probably have something to do with input leniency, as well as more standardization in inputs (we don't often get wonky games with like the pretzel or the plus sign or the pentagram, even a lot of charge character's supers are being simplified to double qcf). Input leniency is good but a lot of the ways it was programmed do seem to have the unintentional effect of advantaging Buttonbox inputs. For instance, how you can get a fireball motion with 2 6 and you can just skip the 3. On any "normal" control scheme the 3 would come out regardless and I believe that being able to miss it would make execution easier on Buttonbox. The "four frame super art" thing is only possible because you can skip the 3, yeah?

The statement that socd cleaning where left + right is neutral, is a macro, is false. It is not too different as hold down back. Two buttons giving one action. A macro would be holding down a button to execute a down back. Imagine a button that allow you to charge sonic boom, flash kick, and low block at the same time

As a stickless player myself, I've come to believe that the Hit Box-style U+D=U resolution is indeed a bit unfair. Stick players cannot get that input so clean, skipping neutral, except with a very high level of skill, whereas it's trivial on stickless. I think stickless controllers should do away with U+D=U and instead just make it U+D=N. That still makes perfect flash kicks possible, it just requires you to "earn" it by actually working on your execution (i.e. making sure to release D and hit U on the same frame, just like a stick player has to make sure to slam the lever up as fast as possible). Making your fingers do what your game sense wants is a key part of fighting games, and unfortunately that means we do have to think about how easy things are on different controllers. (And for the record, I think the Antagonist button is equally unfair.)

I find it kinda funny that the smash community is way past this conversation even tho leverless does way more ridiculous stuff when it replaces an analog stick. If you know how anal smashers are about good gamecube controllers and even they can embrace leverless controllers then it can't be that big of a deal for all the other fighting games out there.

a guile lever player is severely disadvantaged against a guile hitbox player. hitbox can start charging new boom or flash kick 3+ frames faster than what is possible on a lever, also hit box can skip neutral completely when doing special or critical art. eg lever down, neutral, up kick hitbox down up kick. hitbox players should only play other hitbox players. I just bought a sf5 stick and I'm pissed I have to buy a hitbox just to be able to compete with hitbox users, really forced to. I want to buy a snackbox control (wish I didn't have to).

Can you make a video about charge moves? I still have a hard time hitting them

Jokes on you Brine. Im a keyboard player. It was very intuitive to play hitbox. Greetings from EU

Gonna chime in. As someone who plays both, I totally agree with your assessment. I feel like playing fighting games with lots of motion inputs are OPTIMAL on stick. It's so much easier to move the lever to do a hadoken than it is to move my index, middle, and ring finger all together. However, 3D fighting games like Tekken and Dead or Alive and Virtua Fighter, where there's not much motion inputs, hitbox is definitely better. Especially since movement matters so much more than execution. Pad is the best of both worlds, but I had to stop playing pad since I would hurt my thumbs. Also, in Tekken, using the stick hurts my wrists, so it's more comfortable to just use my fingers. And in Street Fighter, well, I can't do half-circle inputs as well. All in all, just play whatever is most comfortable for you. Don't listen to the haters.

What's the song that starts at 15:07?

I swear to god there used to be the argument when consoles were starting to see fighting games come on different systems between pads and sticks where people would say a stick allowed you to piano buttons better so it was faster.

I joke about playing on a 'cheatbox' but I honestly was just tired of technical issues playing on stick - microswitches dying on me, balltops coming loose, making sure it didn't fall on the joystick (especially while traveling), etc.; I had a background playing games with WASD/kb+m controls and liked playing charge, so Hitbox just seemed like an obvious choice. As Brian says, some things definitely feel easier, like *cheating*, but you give up on other things. Half-circles in some games can be inconsistent in KOF, a character like Ukyo in SamSho is basically unplayable for me b/c of the Tsubame Gaeshi input, and even with the DP shortcuts in SFV I found I didn't necessarily gravitate towards characters with them (but that's me).

People are just scared of hitbox because it combines the benefits of pad and fightstick. Pad makes motion inputs much faster, but stick makes it much easier to hold multiple buttons and do piano inputs. Hitbox can do all of that, but I don't consider it cheating

Since SF5 doesn't SOCD clean keyboards, are there any keyboard only option selects, for instance, to get forward without guessing where the opponent is? Maybe some cheap walk-unders? Charge moves?

I think a lot of people are floating around the Hitbox discussion not realizing we had this discussion YEARS ago when pad came out. First Guilty Gear local I ever went to I had people sneering at me when I expressed my surprise at the amount of stick players.

I find the "Let the software decide" premise interesting because SF6 *is* deciding on many of these issues. Fast 4 input supers bother you? Try one direction+ 2 buttons for what used to be a 720° + 3 buttons input. Think blocking left/right is cheating? Try a 2 button, frame 1, omnidirectional parry that not only covers crossups but also high/low mixups as well. We also still don't know how Guile's perfect charge timing works. But it's extremely unlikely they would make it impossible to achieve on stick. And if that's the case, then being able to charge a worse version of a special move a couple of frames faster is irrelevant.

i think people from the arcade era do find it more intuitive and games are built around the physical design of a stick which does help but people who grew up with pad find that intuitive and now in poorer countries where pad is the premium option, people find keyboard more intuitive cause that's what they grew up with. it's almost like a funky love triangle of sorts that stick boomers are shitting on hitboxes for unfair advantage, poor pad users are envying stick cause they think that's the intended way to play fgs and the poorest in line, keyboard players in 3rd world countries think anything above is better while arguably using what's considered the most "superior" input option overseas which is all button at the end of the day, similar to hitbox. there is a component of hardware socd cleaning but it's not relevant to the mechanical advantage of shorter actuation time. people should understand there are pros and cons to all of these options and that there really doesn't have to be a financial gear gate for most people, because all button controllers are incredibly easy to build with open source firmware AND hardware nowadays. same goes for shoebox sticks, mechanical keyboards and well, pad is free if you own a console.

I'm terrible at using my arm to guide the stick, so my wrist is pretty weak for quick movements now. Keyboard feels too weird having my hands so close together. I can't time combos using shoulder buttons for some reason despite having no problem with action games like DMC. All button controllers let me play fighting games at the same level I played on stick after a few months. Brian's opinion about SOCD is interesting. I figured normalizing it on the hardware was a good idea, but I totally forgot that pad gives access to quirks like blocking in both directions in UMVC3.

Would it not all be sorted if the game would just not accept socd inputs at all? Make it so that it would not register opposite direction input until you let go of the first one. That would fix it for both pad and leverless controllers right?

I'm new to the fighting game genre, but I just wanted to say that your discussion here is very thoughtful and nuanced. I appreciate your insistence on objective measurement as a core reason for banning something, your stance on leaving it up to the devs to account for inputs in the software, and the fact that you touched on ergonomics and accessibility. I developed repetitive strain injuries in both of my hands and wrists a few years back that took a long time to recover from, and I had to stop playing games entirely for a while, so the ergonomics of a game are a major concern for me.

If arcade cabinets had originally been built with cardinal direction buttons rather than a stick, and console controllers hadn't adopted analog sticks, these Hitbox-style input devices wouldn't even be a problem right now. They'd literally be the standard.

I used to have a lot of pain and problems with my hands when I was playing on pad. Then I moved over to hitbox, and I haven't had an issue since. Also I learned pretty quick that there is a level of mechanics to using a hitbox that you dont see on pad. You have to be much more exact with your inputs.

as somone who is starting to get into street fighter i watched your "controller" tierlist and i mainly used keyboard i decided to do some of that secret suacy techniques you mention like the weird back dashing and it works, especially the super shortcut one lol

If hitbox handles socd the way it does to make itself legal, then the second position of "speed of inputs" also calls into question the legality of arcade sticks. Because you can do what hitbox does on stick, it's just very hard because of the throw and actuation distance. That would then mean banning sticks with short throws and actuation distances like Seimitsu sticks. Do tournaments now also have to ban specific levers, and TOs have to open up sticks to verify their legality before matches?

Just start making everything half and whole circle inputs rather than double qcf and shoryu inputs /s Though admittedly, I feel like the places where hitbox does have some input jank, it seems like it's predominantly with lightning fast charge inputs, and anything where the stick doesn't continue in one fluid motion around the edge of the gate. Like shoryus, double qcfs, stuff like that

to fit the pad simultaneous button inputs I have buttons on the back of my controller that I can map to up and down so I can immediately get a flash kick out

I made a hacked hit box some 10 years ago and I never even knew about all the stuff you could do with it until hitbox got big.

Cope this post was made by the keyboard clan

As a longtime keyboard player, I obviously fully disagree with the Hitbox "cheatbox" thing. What, if you want to ban Hitbox should you ban keyboards too? Keyboard is the most basic gaming peripheral out there that is easier to obtain than a stick and even a pad. I reckon many other Southeast Asian players like me are also accustomed to gaming with the keyboard in general. So by banning these things, it's similar to just alienating a subsection of the community.

If you ban socd on controllers would that realistically be able to be enforced at tourneys? Also, what about making retro game tourneys stick only?

People don’t take effort into account. You’re not “entitled to be equal” to the person that put 10000x time more into it than you did. It’s your ego speaking back to you to protect you stating something like: “It’s not you, Jimmy, nor this obviously more skilled person - it must be this inanimate object that cannot speak back”. This type of thinking sunk us into the Dark Ages.

People who cry about your controller should be banned 😎

Here's a big brain theory for all the Twitter theory fighters: Every controller gives a specific advantage and disadvantage. And honestly the lack of consideration for accessibility options through control methods in this community is honestly disgusting. Some people simply have physical issues when using certain controllers. I play pad exclusive due to bad hand cramps when playing lever without a leveled surface to rest it on while my friend can't play pad anymore due to on going hand issues so he plays stick.

I agree that it is more of a software(devs dealing with it) problem than the controller itself. Fighting games are technically built around the fight stick, so it does make sense to say that it is the right way to play fighting games. But the thing is, arcades are no longer a thing(unless you're in Japan apparently) and that's not likely to change. So it is only natural that the tournaments/community and games being developed will have to adapt to the fact that the majority of people don't play the game the way they were initially "intended to be played", and that it is not feasible to force/expect people to use arcade sticks. So it is either let the fgc become even a more niche community with time, or adapting to the natural change of paradigm/controller

This was my thought as well. What a hitbox can and can't do needs to be decided at a software level, and game devs have to build their input engines around the fact that hitboxes do exist. In a sense, the devs need to determine what they want to be possible versus impossible in their game at all. So if a Guile flashkick that skips neutral "shouldn't" ever happen, then they'll need to add a mandatory stand frame or two before the kick comes out even if a player executes the kick perfectly. I ordered a hitbox recently and I've been training myself on keyboard because I'm sick and tired of dropping inputs on stick and pad. I've always been absolute ass at doing quarter circle motions. Hitbox opens up fighting games to someone like me. I don't mind executing every single motion input, but if I can do it with my fingers instead of my thumbs or my wrists, then my ability to do what I want in the game increases. I think people can become obsessed with execution dexterity and this is largely what has kept the FGC relatively niche and small. What should matter at the end of the day is each player doing what he wants to do in the game. "I meant to do X, but Y came out" is a horrible feeling and I always feel cheated when it happens. You can always say "get gud" but there's a limit to that considering the actual biology of each person. Traditional arcade sticks are designed for people with narrow shoulders and fantastic wrist dexterity. Should this be a limiting or gatekeeping factor that stops people who don't meet the criteria from being able to play and enjoy the games at a high level? There is also an argument to made that if hitbox is the "best" way to play fighters and anyone can buy a hitbox, then why are we trying to force people to play on inferior hardware? For example if FPS games are best played on a mouse and keyboard and controller players have the option of using M&K but refuse to, should we force all M&K players to use controller despite it being inferior? Makes no sense.

As Aris said, I am sure someone out there has Priority directions on their hitbox and is anyone policing them to check it? Im sure somoene's stick out there is Booming while blocking because they can hold two directions at once and no one out there policing and checking your hitbox if it can do it or not.

I think saying hitbox is not intuitive is BS when i first started playing on stick from pad it took me months to just be comfortable with doing simple things when i try to play on keyboard with asd and spacebar i find it pretty intuitive because i've played games on PC before and i'm used to this layout. Nothing is inherently intuitive it all depends on your past experiences and stickless layout isn't any harder than stick if you have played it as much as stick it has no drawbacks. However i don't think it should be banned the only thing i think that should be ban is anything other than SOCD neutral and i agree that devs should be the ones to put that in the game that way stickless layouts just have to send their raw inputs without any interpretation

That orb arcade stick looks comfy for some hands. I had to transition to what I could afford at the time, because playing with pad and also playing Smash busted my hands. So I ended up taking a gamble on a mixbox clone as a cheap way to play with a leverless controller to save my hands. It has only made me better because, with less hand pain, I could make better strides in learning fighting games. I was simply able to put in more time into fighting games, the inputs being more precise was a bit plus for me. Thought my life, arcade stick or analogue stick or dpad, I would always misinput and jump. Leverless controllers really cut down on that. Maybe someday I’ll get my hands on a Smash Bros style leverless controller and go back to it. I’m starting to miss it a bit.

I can see a future where SOCD options are the new turbo buttons. Personally I wish I could get used to Hitbox but personal preference about the button size has been keeping me on the good old stick, its funny how tribal people get about their input devices tho

Let's face it, in every other type of e-sports, people can use modern devices. People don't play counter strike with the same devices in 2004 and in 2022 and that's ... normal. The stick is a very old device, not adapted anymore to the current games and is indeed inferior to the hitbox. It kinda hurts because most of stick players (including myself) are very proud to use this compared to any other objects/controllers. But sadly in a competitive game you can't blame people for using the best tools. So yeah hitbox is crazy good compared to stick but either stick with your current controller or change but do not complain.

Why is there such a debate around Hitboxes now, while it's been around for several years? Hard to not suspect that iDom's loss to a Hitbox player isn't one of the reasons behind that sudden interest on the matter. And I'm not putting the blame on iDom in case you're wondering, he took the L like the champion he is and didn't blame his opponent's controller. The twitter crowd however...

I switched to hitbox because while I was playing pad, I would always jump by accident and get demolished for it; this is because on pad, you can hit the back button and accidentally jump if you push the top of the back button too hard. Fighting sticks have always felt unnatural to me and I could never get used to it (I even used to play stick inputs at the arcade when I was a kid).

why does the thumbnail have a IIDX controller lmao