A very useful little gizmo, the comments show how this could be improved in detail, thanks for publishing the video which provides inspiration for those of us who would like something similar 😊
Ooof, ripped the encoder off! That spindle encoder would have saved you some grief later - common to use one on small spindles because keeping the right RPM means keeping chip load correct, and those little spindle bog down pretty easily. This leads to the chip load getting out of hand, and soon you're deflecting your little miller too much and breaking them all the time, despite using a really slow feed: Too slow and you're rubbing, and not enough heat is taken away because the chip is too small. There's a narrow optimal chip load which is as thick as you can do, given the situation, limited by tool deflection upwards, and keeping this requires the spindle speed to not change as the cutter engages and disengages... which changes load on the motor, and without speed feedback, WILL cause the speed to dip, or else be too high when the chip is thin. Best you can do is get the speeds and feeds right for the cut, there are calculators for this specficially super useful for small spindles, because the small bits are so easy to break. But yeah - should have left the encoder on, because using it for feedback to keep the spindle at the programmed RPM is absolutely something you'll later miss. Which speeds and feeds are optimal seems to be something this machinist isn't aware of - just going a little faster can in some cases fix chatter and lead to a better surface finish: What you're doing is avoiding a mechanical resonance. It's counterintuitive that cutting faster and deeper would do this, but it does. And this matters even more for ER11's.
Thanks! I think this is common practice. Without the brass insert you would emediately damage the thread when locking the nut. So a little bit more work but it is worth the effort :)
@@WeCanDoThatBetter yes, exactly. As I was watching the video, and saw you drilling and tapping the hole for the grub screw, I immediately thought "that's gonna damage the threads". But then saw you make the insert and even cut the threads into it, and I was amazed, because I've never seen something like this. If I ever find myself having to make anything similar, I'll be sure to use this trick.
@@Bloodray19 You can make it even simpler. Cut a small disc from copper sheet metal. The “thread profile” forms on its own. This works sufficiently for smaller threads.
Exelente trabajo felicitaciones.. Me compre un mini torno hace muy poco y tus videos son muy motivadores para mi que me estoy iniciando en este mundo de la metalmecanica .Saludos! desde Argentina,
Oh, I love this site and his milling spindle. I spent most the time collecting that specificity escap [bldc] motor on eBay and have collected 7, so far. You did just as good an awesome job as the originator of this spindle..
Nice unit but you missed one thing that would make it better. You should drill the motor pulley so that you can access the motor tension adjustment bolt so you can adjust the belt tension easier. As it stands you have to remove the pulley to adjust the motors position which makes it a crap shoot when adjusting belt tension.
Awesome little spindle. It looked and sounded to have a little bit of wobble on those bearings, though. Not a big deal to fix with some tighter fitting ones, or maybe just adding a coat or two of epoxy to snug them up. Might also want to add at least a third bearing at the center of the spindle housing (after drilling it out more and adding a spacer). You could be getting flex in the middle of the shaft with it only supported at 2 points. I was kinda worried about the belt pulling the shaft to one side, which might be a problem if you add more belt tension for running at higher speed. I think I would add a pin into the outer housing and a skateboard bearing to support the shaft past the pulley. Obviously a small spindle like this will never rough out massive materials but nice to have for small stuff and PCB routing. This is why I suggest cranking up the belt tension and increasing rpm. That copper likes to stick and drilling vias in FR4 works best at really high RPM.
Also, doesn't seem like those bearings have the right arrangement and preload either. What's the Total Indicated Runout? Go read SKF's documents on spindle arrangement and preload, it would be easy to get those things right - everything else about this work seems pretty good otherwise, and it's a shame to hear it perform so poorly - it just doesn't sound right, although that could also be the tragically ruined motor.
"doesnt seem like"... no, i assure you, its ABSOLUTELY NOT how they should be arranged... look at the linked design in the description... firstly, radials, and secondly, the designer has chosen NOT to refer to SKF or other manufacturers about proper bearing placement... channel creator has simply substituted with angular contacts. off the shelf, unmatched. sealed is very unusual... and definitely not a good idea if high speeds are the order of the day... no allowance for thermal expansion. which will be insane with sealed, grease packed bearings... no crush tube... the preload, if one uses properly matched bearings, will be automatic. just need a third bearing (radial) and a crush tube...
This is awesome, i started design work on something very similar a few years ago. I still have the fbx files. Main difference was I planned on casting it in zamak, and using annular contact bearings. proposed power TP power bldc motor, using a timing belt setup.
you dont need a specific book to understand spindle designs. it DOES help to at least refer to SKF or other manufacturer recommendations... they tell you all you need to know... a quick , yuk, online search...plenty of information. a diagram is enough. traditionally, for something like this... two opposing angular contacts in the nose, and a floating third, radial bearing at the end. with a crush tube, to clamp all three inner races to the spindle. have to cater for thermal expansion, most of all. only a small modification to the design...
Amazing work, I really admire your patience and resilience. I would like to know why you do some operations, such as internal cylindrical turning, by turning the chuck in reverse. Congratulations and thanks for sharing.
Yes, you're right. Afterwards I know better... ;) Fortunately it was relative cheap. I didn't know that this motor is that different from the normal version. I thought "underneath" it is just the normal motor.
Nice work. I think the bearing fit may have needed to be a bit tighter to meet the recommendations for that type of application. But probably fit for purpose. I reckon direct driving the spindle would have been a good option unless for some reason you needed that arrangement.
Hi and thanks for your comment and feedback! I chose a sliding fit for the bearings as I use angular contact bearings. The can only handle load in one direction. When I have to assemble and disassemble the spindle in the build process several times the bearings may be destroyed when trying to push them out again because in this direction they are pretty weak. The front steel cap and the rear aluminium motor plate both press against the outer race of the bearings and secure the bearings tightly in place. I machined the bearing seats that the outer race of the bearing is just a few hundreths "too high" so that the caps press against when screwed on. I hope that makes sense :) Direct drive would be cool too, yes. I thought about this but for my first spindle build I chose the design linked in the video description. perhaps my next spindel will be direct drive. I guess this is a little bit more complicated. You have to have probably two parts: one spindle part and one motor part which gets screwed together in the middle.
@@WeCanDoThatBetterRemember that a milling spindle has quite a lot of side force. Even worse, it is vibratory. Any clearance you have in the spindle shaft will cause it to slop around in the bearing, even if it is just 0.01 mm. This will cause fretting and wear. Ok to have a press fit. When pressing the shaft out, you should never be pressing on the balls of the bearings. Always only on the inner or outer race. So it doesnt matter the bearings are weaker in one direction. That said, you could not press them apart in that weak direction. Even if the bottom bearing only was a press fit and the top a running fit as the top has much less side force. For a direct drive, there are heaps of little flexible couplings available on aliexpress. Then just need to mount the motor in line. Keep up the great work. I really appreciate your videos.
Nice video and presentation. Page 11:00 yes I saw this before and no more. This parting tool abuses much lathe swing range (can’t part large diameter), also bite hard and self district. The flexible jaws can’t prevent rolling twisting and often sag under load. Once sag below centerline, the turning force pulls the blade off into the work and overloading the motor. I’ve switched to 250-007 with a T style blade (relieves on each side). If blade overhang is too far out off tool post, plus carriage plays, blade also sag below center line.
@@VanFlausch I disassembled the lathe partially during the last weeks and added a lubrication system and new gibs for the bedslide and did some other little improvements. The machine is now assembled back again and ready for the first parts. There will be a video soon on bringing the machine back to life. But before I release a video on making a small collet chuck for the Emco and a sheetmetal bedway protection.
It seems to me the motor would have been better mounted above the drive housing so you could have more clearance around the spindle nose ?... 🤔 Looking at how its mounted in the machine, it probably doesnt matter though... Nice build !.. 😎👍☘️🍻
Depends if he is going to use it with his lathe slide, where the tool post would be in the way. It is a common arrangement for lathe spindles, if he was only going for a milling machine, you would be correct.
It's not a Saccardo, but it works, it can be improved by using angular contact bearings and a labyrinth seal, but still a usefull tool for a mill or a lathe
Very neat and precise work! It is not clear why such an engine was chosen? To then radically redesign it? Probably it was easier to choose a more suitable one.
Hi and thanks for your comment! I wanted to use the same motor as in the article. Unfortunately on the used market there was only the servo version of this motor available. I thought that should be no problem not knowing that this motor is build differently. I noticed this afterwards when it was too late.
From the sound of the spindle when running it seems there is play in the spindle somewhere. You didn't seem to put any preload into the bearings so that maybe where the vibration is coming from. Other than that this is a pretty nice build considering it is using small hobby grade machines.
Nice work.🎉 Then try not to loose beating seats, distant bushing between bearings, and of course - try to make belt tension adjustments more easier, than bolts under the pulley 😅😉
@@WeCanDoThatBetter I don't recall another video about a DIY small milling spindle, so... Also, I didn't know that Mini Lathes with a lead screw are available, which one do you have?
Hi and thanks for your feedback! You might be right. I think the proxxon is too weak at low rpms. Have to try this next. But in the future I have a milling spindle for such tasks ;) Just have to find a way to mount it on my lathe. Or I make an even smaller one in the future.
What seems like the belt is shredding are actually just the hairs from the white carpet on which I ran the motor earlier in the video. The belt collected the hairs somehow. At first I thought too that it's the belt itself but fortunately it's not :)
I like to direct drive these things with outrunner motors. Pop the bearings out of the stator and mount it around the shaft. Widen out the hole in the rotor to fit the shaft. Put a thin concentric tube around the shaft between the rotor and spindle bearing to transfer the axial load. Make an adapter that screws to the rotor and has a set screw to grip the shaft. It can also have threads in the bore like the locking nut you made.
Well done for trying. It’s good to push your self to make new things. I think you were using the wrong cutting tips at the start of the video. Those are designed for soft metals.
Hi and thanks for your feedback. I really do appreciate that. I sometimes use the polished inserts for aluminium on steel too. As they are really sharp they have a really low cutting pressure. The part in the beginning had a really high stickout from the chuck making it very unstable to machine on my small machine. Therefore I used the polished inserts for minimum cutting forces to reduce vibration and chattering. They don't last very long in steel but sometimes I have no other choice.
@@crawlstockrc That's normally how I do it. But when machining internal bores it can't be done as such. I thing, you are referring to machining the bearing seats.
Good build. now much preload did you put on that shaft? lookled like 'finger tight' which isn't really enough. Also that escap motor is a bit slow for the size of cutters you are useing, consider a brushless in-runner at >10krpm
Hi and thanks for your comment! Good question. I put just a very light preload on the bearings. To be honest I'm not sure how much preload the bearings need to have and how to properly adjust it. I guess it is very hard to measure. If you have experience with it, I would be happy if you share it with me. I thought about a brushless motor too but given the fact that it needs a special controller it seemed like a more complicated solution so I decided to got with a normal dc motor.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter if you get super high end bearings there is probably some formula from the manufacturer to calculate preload. with this sort of level and size though you are probably best with just a couple of aproperately sized wave-washers squished up with that nice locking nut you made to keep it under tension. if it's free-running for ages when you spin it by hand it's too loose. for the motor yes, the brishless driver is annoying, but you can use hobby ESCs with a servo tester knob for a cheap solution. alternitivly to keep it super simple if you want to use a dc motor you could use a ratio on that belt drive to step up the spindle speed a bit.
Nicely done! Should make your mill all the more useful, being able to spin small end mills and drill bits much faster. What's the max RPM of the spindle? Did you check the runout? At 28:34, is the spindle moving axially in and out of the housing, or is that just the camera?
as a change of pace, could you show the final assembly first, then show the milling, turning... then show the final assembly again... sort of a lincoln approach... tell them what you want to tell them, tell them it, then tell them what you told them?
Okay, love the tool, great work. Just one teeeeeeeeensy thing that bugs me in the vid i need to ask about. How come you're abusing the Lathe to cut bores in the rectangular sheets of derlin/plate, rather than using a much nicer and safer boring head on your milling machine? I cringe so hard when seeing you doing it (okay, maybe i've nearly hit myself in the face doign it the lathe way that gives me a spec of fear/bias lol)
abusing the lathe? lol... you think the bearings are gonna disintegrate or something from a piece of light material spinning slightly off balance? have you seen how eccentric steel shafts are turned? its ok to take care of your tools, but your way of thinking is like buying a car and keeping it inside your garage so the tires dont get worn out... tools are meant to be used and (slightly) abused, they are not museum pieces
@@TheMadJoker87 😂😂 You have no idea how I'm thinking. It's doable with a small lathe sure, as I've done myself, but its not the most secure work holding and when you've got a milling machine... That's the point I'm raising, not whatever insanity you're ranting at lol
@@qwertyface I've an even smaller one, n use a mt2 boring head on it comfortably. idk if you've seen his other videos, but he's made a custom boring head to high standard not that long ago too :)
@noviceartisan nothing wrong with using the lathe this way, it's only ali and acetal. I've done die bolsters out of flame cut steel for press tooling much larger than this on much larger machines, bur sometimes you don't have the capacity to balance it accordingly. I hardly call it "abuse"
Where did you get the collet chuck? Chinese ones always have terrible runout. I got a decent one from Shars, but it's 1/2" shank so I can't use angular contact bearings (none available that I've found). Two R8 bearings at each end of the shaft works well enough, but they wear out relatively quickly (couple years or so). I may try regrinding the taper on a Chinese ER11.
Hi, I just ordered them from Aliexpress. Actually I havent checked for runout yet. Have to do that. But with the endmill installed I saw a visible wobble which is not a good sign. But don't know if this was the collet or the taper itself. Have to check that. I assume all these chucks are the same. Don't know if there are higher and lower quality ones.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter Likely both the collet and chuck are bad (which can actually cancel eachother out sometimes). I bought high quality 1/8" and 1/4" collets, which cover a good range of tooling without breaking the bank. 1/8" shank PCB drills come in a wide range of sizes including larger than the shank (I have a set that goes up to 1/4"). But carbide drills chip really easily, especially if there's runout, so don't buy any until you get that taper ground to at least .002" TIR and preferably under .001".
@@WeCanDoThatBetter There are definitely good and bad, but no real way to be sure what you're getting until you receive it and can measure. Worth checking before putting work in to modify them. 1st one I bought was excellent, 2nd was awful, 3rd was OK (different sellers on A.E.).
Hi and thanks for your kind feedback! The camera I use is a Canon 80d. Since I have led panels on the ceiling I most of the time use no additional video light.
Yeah, I could have done that better. Didn't know how the motor was put together so I just tried to seperate the bare motor but that was not my best idea ;)
@@WeCanDoThatBetter I was not commenting on the way you went about it. My critique was that you downgraded the motor, for an application that would really benefit from the closed loop control.
Thank you very much! The tool post is a multifix type from German manufacturer AXA. I made a video on the installation and showed it in detail. The tool post size I have is called Aa. I use 10mm tools with it.
Ich bewundere deine Arbeiten mit den kleinen Maschinen schon seit längerer Zeit. Auch diese kleine Frässpindel mit Eurohals. Immer wieder sieht man auch die Gleichstrommotoren, wobei ich mich frage, ob die in der Leistung wirklich genügend durchziehen? Ich würde gerne eine Supportschleifmaschine bauen, wobei die DC-Motoren natürlich vom Gewicht und der Größe ideal wären. Wie ist deine Erfahrung mit der Durchzugskraft des Motors? Danke und viel Spaß weiterhin.
I think you ruined one or two bearings when modifying the motor. The sound is not good unfortunately. Nice work although the setup in the lathe when turning the rectangular parts made me scared... Why not use a boring head in the mill? Much safer to do so. Best! Job
Hi and thanks for your comment! You are right, removing the back part of the motor with the bearing was a bad idea. The sound now is really not very promising. But I will keep the motor as long as it runs and will use the spindle as it is at first. Perhaps I change the motor later. My milling machine takes only tools to 6mm shank diameter. It is not possible to use a boring head on this machine. So I have to be creative using the lathe as much as I can. In plastic I'm not that worried but you're right never forget how potentially dangerous this type of work can be. Using my selfmade boring head in the lathe chuck and the part stationary on the cross slide would be an option too for next time.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter The boring head in the spindle of your lathe combined with an additional z-axis would be a safe upgrade to do this kind of work. Thank you! Best! Job
why did you remove the optical encoder? you could have had proper speed control with that! as in constant speed and it not changing based on the load D:
The encoder also needs a more complicated electronic to work. That's nothing I have on hand. Would be cool but I am not that experienced in electronics and I think this would be overkill.
@@WeCanDoThatBetter arduino + pid controller (arduino project)+ opto encoder library, thats all you need. you give the two inputs to the arduino, you get one pwm output for the mosfet for the speed control. Then just calibrate the pid values to get a stable speed (not oscillating much) . its really simple to make, you should totally learn how to do it, its not overkill and its not too complicated to do, and its totally worth it :P
Hi and thanks! I don't know which motor you have in mind but probably yes. The Escap motor is a high end quality motor which normally runs super smooth and quiet. If you can choose it is probably the better choice than the cheap standard ones. But I assume both would work.
Wow. That's a VERY neat design. It's slightly similar to a grinding attachment I made a few years back for my little lathe, but that's....... NOT such a neat design. In fact, using the thing terrifies me. This is due to my idea of building it around a little sewing machine motor I had (that has air vents on it that suck fine metal dust in, and deposits that all around the brushes that are carrying 240vac !), a toothed belt that always sounds like it's about to shred (And I never thought to design in any way for me to fit a belt cover), and a output spindle speed that tops out at around 30 to 35,000 rpm so I can run little Dremel die grinder accessories. It works reasonably well, but usually I'd rather not bother with a ground finish on anything if it means risking electrocution, losing fingers to an unguarded and, maybe one day shredded belt, and/or taking shrapnel from an exploding baby grinding wheel. :D
the bearings are arranged all wrong... did a TP grinder a while back, i chose to buy a 1/4 HP 2 pole motor, or 3000rpm... and round belt pulleys instead... im happy with the... 10K or so, most of my grinding wheels are for more like 5K, and with no guard on the thing yet... i havent used the "fast" set of pulleys yet? a little dremel type stone is nothing... just stay out of its line? a 4-5" wheel is another story altogether... the brushed universal motors are ok, but i really cant handle the sound they make. i wouldnt use toothed belts for grinding... the round belts are intended for the high speeds and if you sink in too deep... they slip. happily.
@@paradiselost9946 Very few aspects of my grinder attachment are ideal. It was mainly made out of stuff I already had kicking about. The toothed belt and pullies were ones I'd bought in error when making a dumb electric feed for my little old lathe (Dumb as in, no stepper motor or anything fancy, just a variable speed controller, some brackets, a PSU, and a slightly undersized drive motor. It works fine for what it is). The sewing machine motor actually did come out of a broken sewing machine that a friend was throwing out, and the (IIRC) ER16 spindle was the only part I specifically bought to put this together, and even that was just a cheap one from China. It's all held together with a piece of really thick walled 100x100 angle iron that I welded gussets into. If I had any serious use for a TP grinder I'd probably have put a bit more thought into building this (Or I might have even planned the build beforehand rather than just winging it. :D), but it was just something I made when I needed to grind in my chuck jaws, and it's probably only been used 10 or 15 times since then....... Not only because I know it could cause me serious damage if it suffered a "Sudden spontaneous self disassembly", but also because it actually looks and sounds like it is plotting to k!ll me every time I've had it fitted to my lathe ! :D If I ever do build another, I think it would need to be a significantly more substantial design, and be a multi functional unit, so it could grind and (with a change of gear ratio) horizontal drill when on the tool post, but also be usable as a basic light duty mill with it mounted to a height adjustable post on the back of the lathe bed, then I could use the lathes T slotted cross slide as small milling machine table. I may be lucky enough to have a home workshop shed, but it's a tiny one, so any double duties a machine can pull that doesn't eat into my very limited space is a serious bonus.
@@Reman1975 lol, dont worry... often a tool has to be remade several times before you iron out the bugs... workflow... stupid mistakes on last passes... i had three attempts at this TP grinder, four if you include the bronze bushes and MT3 taper for a bit of deep groove sawing years ago... five if you include the housing bored oversize... then there was the chamfer episode... the last step... 'its left hand thread, its left hand thread, its left hand thread... run it backwards". ZIP. guess who didnt run it backwards? lol. nothing ruined, but there is a nice nick in the locking ring, work got wacked out of line... and that was that, i wasnt about to reclock the whole piece for a mere chamfer! and i sort of want to go back and do the housing again... except i also found a 20K rated spindle from a coborn (top of the line?) at the scrapyard... that needs mounting one day. lol, the lump of casting its attached to almost weighs as much as my lathe itself! thing is... i havent figured out how to disassemble it yet... theres no obvious locking rings or fasteners...
Idk if u know wht Facebook marketplace is or not but if u do id look on there for someone selling a air compressor decently cheap… make it way faster and easier for u to clean the chips off parts, chuck, tool holder… and if u only want a certain amount of air coming out the blow gun u can put a regular on it…
and why we are using ball bearings for SPINDLE... forces while cutting will destroy them in no time also why we are using aluminium while rest of spindle is steel?
He said they were angular contact bearings, what else would you use in a spindle? Sure lathes usually have tapered roller bearings but they run at relatively low speeds, high speed spindles are usually angular contact ball bearings.
They're not deep groove single race ball bearings; they're angular contact bearings. They're able to take both radial and axial forces perfectly well enough, especially given that WCDTB is not going to be hogging out chunks of Ti with that spindle. Probably better to not have commented than to have exposed your ignorance. However, he didn't mention anything about preload. I don't know, but the omission from the video makes me worry that setting the preload correctly was omitted, period.
Alter??? Mach Kühl/Schmiermittel dran... Da Verreckt alsbald des Werkzeug, und die Teile werden Trocken auch nicht besser. Zumindest Mindermengenschmierung sollte es schon sein, brauchst ja keine Flutkühlung
Nice looking unit, but your video is lacking important details of the spindle design. For instance: arrangement of the bearing shoulders, provision for preload, use of bearing retainer compound (or not), and so on. Drawings or sketches would help to illuminate your approach. Lacking all this I'm sorry to say: Rather disappointing!
nice workmanship, but seriously, bearings need to be a very light interference/press fit.... only the rear bearing should be a slip fit. it has to have some axial play to allow for thermal expansion. that 'smooth" surface very quickly wears down and from there its all downhill as the outer races start to creep and yeah... to mount angular contacts separated by a gap with no crush tube between? big no-no! as you only copied someones design... that is a really bad spindle bearing layout. as it warms up, youll find it starts getting sloppy... nip it up again, and when it cools, the bearings will overload... races brinell, its even possible to shatter balls... traditionally, its a pair of AC's back to back (front to front?) at the nose, outer races pressed, and clamped. then a crush tube, to clamp up the three inner races to the spindle. three? yes, there is the third bearing at the rear and that only has to be a plain radial (6200 in this case) as the thrust is already accommodated by the AC's... its just there to support the end of the shaft and the pulley. as it is, its really only a small amount of work to improve on the design and do it so its bulletproof... as your channel name states... YOU CAN DO IT BETTER! if you buy the proper precision bearings, they come in pairs, pre-ground to give the required preload. get rid of the seals, they just create excess heat, friction, have far too much grease in them anyway... if anything, use slideway/hydraulic oil and an oiling ring... high speed bearings do not appreciate being packed with grease. the design should have labyrinths so no gunk can get into the races, anyway. that is, "non-contact" seals...
