These videos are worth their weight in gold :) I went with coil overs AND kept the torsion bar. I remember that mounting point wasn't ever going to be quite right to support what was asked from it. That's about all I remember and I appreciate your expertise. These Porsche's are finally being appreciated.
I was recommended ceikas specifically designed for 944 but I'm cautious of losing the torsion bar. Awaiting answer on my thread on 944hybrids from a smart guy named bob
This is a great video. You manage to get a lot of information in your videos. I would love it if you made a video showing how to adjust the ride height.
I'll tell you something interesting about the front suspension; the lower control arm is designed to yield under impact to keep from damaging the main structure of the car. If you slide into a curb, it will sacrifice itself and protect its attachment points to the chassis. I changed more than few of them in the 80s and was always impressed that the damage remained isolated to just the control arm. I slid into a curb in my 2nd-gen Camaro once and managed to bend the lower ball joint, spindle, and sub-frame. The lower control arm was fine, though. It's like the GM engineers were only looking at the issues in front of them when they designed the front suspension. Obviously the engineers at Porsche (or Audi?) were looking further than just what was in front of them.
This is true for the old stainless steel wishbones on the 944 - I've been there done that on a -83 model, and they bend at deformation points, but I've been told that it's very different when it happens with the newer aluminium alloy ones that shatter/break off on impact. Some of the people I know that use 944's on the track, prefer the old ones(sometimes a little modified) or other custom stainless for this reason, and the fact that they're lighter (!) though everyone(most people I talked to anyways) thinks it's the other way around. The alu ones feel a little tighter if you really work them, though. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-64g6OgZaUks.html
Great explanation. I have been reading books and web pages but there is nothing like a clear video and a clear explanation to demystify how something works. Working on Classic Porsche vehicles takes a bit of learning, but I am enjoying it and I'm amazed at how much I learn on a day to day basis. To all of the people who make RU-vid videos, thank you.
Thanks for making this video! I had no idea what I was looking at when I first looked at my 944S' rear suspension. All I could think about was "where are the springs?!"
Van, With your video I was able to show my alignment shop how to correctly adjust the rear corner weight of our 944 chumpcar. This saved us a lot of time and a lot of trial and error having this visual and explanation. Much appreciated.
Van thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have a 87s that is currently just fine German lawn art as it awaits a new power plant. I’m about ready to start preparing it for the LS swap.
I'm almost finished my ls swap. Highly recommend to go for it. First fire and first roll in 2 weeks after 14 years. I recommend Texas performance concepts for conversion parts and tonnes of help from 944hybrids. It's where I have my build thread.
Great explanation. I heard some classes have to have the torsion bars by rule, but that some people somehow disconnect them. In other words, they leave them there because of the rule book, but they are really using the coil-overs on the back to make it easy to corner balance, change spring rate, etc. I guess they shave the splines on the torsion bars???
Yes, they either machine the splines off one side, or they turn down the middle of the torsion bar so it's pencil thin. Then they are complying with the letter of the rules, but not the intent!
Great video as always. I don't own one of these cars, but may in the future. I had no idea the rear suspension on these cars were so sophisticated. Just one more reason why they are such a great value.
Thanks for the video, I have a 82 944 and I just picked up 968 suspension and was truly wondering if I were gaining anything other than 5 lugs instead of 4 but I can really see the difference now
Very instructive video! Many thanks!! My 944 S2 is lower in one side than the other apparently somebody was messing up wit the rear suspension or the concentrics...I wonder how to put it on the right height.
My friends and I just installed the 30mm torsion bars in my 86 yesterday. Our calculations were incorrect and we had to pull it all out again. Now that I see how the components actually work together it makes sense and it isn't all witch craft. I dont ever plan on touching the ride height again but I like the easy adjustment option.
Yeah, doing that job is a royal pain in the butt! I'm sure the factory had some nice fixture that held all the components in place at the right position so the assembly tech just had to select the size bar for the option codes/model and slide it in before attaching to the car!
It is a hazard and 944s have a major fire hazard because of this. They sell aftermarket stainless steel lines that you can put insulation over to protect them.
Hello sir. Just wondering if I where to be looking for a ride on the stiff side of streetable what mm torsion bar would you recommend. Also should I be looking to re-valve or replace my shocks to match?
Thanks a lot for this video. I have a 924 Suspension, but all the bolts for adjustment with the eccentric bolts look just the same. Just ordered that eccentric tool and will fix it in the next few days. One more question: Can you confirm the torque for all the bolts to be 181 ft∙lb?
@@vsvenson Thanks for the reply, just in time. I figured 181 ft-lb to be to excessive as well, so I asked you - "the expert" ;) Meantime I found the correct torque values on the net. It is 90 Nm for the eccentric bolts and 103 Nm for the straight bolts. Tomorrow I'll try to adjust my camber. Thanks again for the excellent instruction video, great job!
Wow, I love how Porsche added all of these adjustments from the factory. A real drivers car, I definitely could nerd out on a vehicle like this. There is a guy where I live selling his 84 and I'm considering trading my Toyota truck for it. He has a very detailed history of the maintenance and the car only has 86,0000 mi. On it. I am a little apprehensive though because I have been told these cars are sensitive and parts are high. I do most work on all my vehicles so I could cover maintenance easy, I just don't want to buy something that is going to be failing all the time. Are these cars reliable if properly taken care of?
+Josh Smitty Yes, I think these cars are very reliable when maintained well. (I've had at least 1, and sometimes several, 944s for the last 19 years.) For a car with under 100k miles, you're looking at a clutch job soon (if it hasn't been done already). Parts are more expensive - that's cost of ownership to have a Porsche. If you can do your own work, I think you'll find it rewarding to own.
Van Svenson Thank you for your quick response. I will see the car this weekend. The owner is part of a club and like I said has a very detailed history on the car. I feel like he will disclose to me as much information about the cars needs to me as he can. I feel lucky that I found such a seller. I will keep you updated on the purchase. Thanks again for the info, much appreciated.
hello.what is the correct name for the part/bracket behind the top shock mounts.i also have an 84 944 and i noticed the rubber pieces collapsed on the driver side. could this be the cause of an occasional clunk sound.
Very cool video that explains everything in a very good and simple way! One question regarding coilovers, as we are putting a set on my wife's 944 Turbo (1986) from Gaz Shocks in UK. They advised to keep the torsion bars (to my surprise) so I'm wondering if the mounting points need reinforcing to support the coilovers setup without torsion bars or if it's mostly a question of hardware (better grade bolts). Our car is stripped and will be caged and welded everywhere too. Thx
Most people use the Racer's Edge lower shock mount bolt. Of course, keeping torsion bars will reduce the load on that bolt. I personally like the torsion bar/coil over combo, but it takes some time to index the torsion bars to get the spring rates and ride height correct. Otherwise you can have the two different springs working against each other in parts of the suspension travel, which will cause odd handling.
@@vsvenson Ok well i need to find how to put the torsion bars in the correct position then to put the car back on the ground. We didn't measure anything before removing it as we're changing the ride height anyway, and the old shocks were completely blown :(. Rule of thumb is to have no tension on the bar when the wheel doesn't touch the ground I presume, so you don't have the coilover or the bar working against each other at any position during wheel travel/
@@yotah1TheModernRacer Well, up in the air, the control arms actually droop down and are twisting the torsion bars the other way. I've ground down the crimp so I can remove that torsion bar cap on the spring plate and welded a little tab onto the end of the torsion bar. This way, I can raise the control arm to the "neutral point" and the torsion bar will slide right out (because there's no twist on it). You want your shock spring perch to also just make contact at this neutral point. Then, let's say your ride height is 1/2" too high, jack the car up, find that neutral point for the control arm, slide the torsion bar out, raise the control arm exactly 1/2", reindex the torsion bar so it slides in, adjust your spring perch so it just makes contact, and now you've properly reset the ride height.
@@vsvenson Pretty good technique. I'll do something similar then on our car but will have to drop the assembly completely to do my adjustments as for now we don't want to cut out the bodywork or then end of the torsion bar housing. But as we setup the car for trackdays, we'll have to adjst things several times later anyway so that will probably be the way to go forward...
@@yotah1TheModernRacer You don't have to cut the body work. You only need to pull the torsion bar out about 2 inches to reindex it. Now, if you're changing torsion bars completely, then you need to either drop the torsion bar carrier or cut holes in the body work.
I just bought my first, it's an 86' n\a with 177k on it. I like the body but am probably going to toss everything else from the suspension to the engine\ ecu\trans\ rear end diff. I would like to modernize the interior gadgetry just for fun. your rundown of the existing suspension is eye opening but given it's mileage I'm thinking I should just go ahead and drop the cash on what I mentioned before.
you could put one of thoes plastic inserts or some of thoes old trailer lights to put in thet hole it would look cool, I own one of these cars 1894 944
Hi Van, if I use slide plate to rise the rear(somebody slammed it to 62cm) by 3cm, do I need to set suspension geometry once again? It was already done. Also, do I need to jack the car up to loosen the slide plate and adjust it?
Thanks for the video! I have noticed some 924's have some hole indents in relatively the same place on the body panel that you made for the torsion bar pull out. Is that what they are? I don't own a 924 but always wondered..
+Ray Baterina Good question, but I don't know the answer. Older 911s - which also had torsion bar rear suspensions - actually have a hole and a matching body-color cap.
Torsion bar size relates to matching the front spring rates and how you use the car (street, track, down force, etc.). It doesn't matter what engine you have.
working on a 92 963 same suspension and doing a 4 wheel alignment is it best to have the owner sit inside the car when align is being done ? i have notice that the numbers in rear change with him sitting in car. Thank you for your time.
Ok, I'm trying to decide weather to remove my torsion bars, or re-index them and leave them in as it came from the factory. Here are some pros and cons of removing the torsions bars if I end up fully prepping the car to move from DEs to racing. Pros: Ease of ride height adjustment and changing spring rates. A tiny bit of weight savings. No more messing with torsion bars. Cons: I'll be put in a faster group, which is totally fair. Car was not originally design to bear the weight at the shock. What I refuse to do is modify the bars….
If you choose the right torsion bars, and take the time to index them, they are just as good as coil over springs. It's also a cheaper choice than getting coil over shocks, with solid bushings, and new lower mounting bolts, just to run a coil over spring.
Van Svenson you are right about it being cheaper; problem is I already installed a real nice set of coil overs :( Now I want to try adjusting the ride height by re-indexing the torsion bars, or, just pull them out and run in group 10 (instead of 8) with SVRA, or a different class in PCA (not familiar with PCA classes etc.) but I'm sure PCA will rightfully make me run in a higher class than people with torsion bars. This is exactly the set I installed on the car: www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Porsche/944SUSESCORT/LRK-944-BIL-SUS-02CP.html I just want to have fun, so because I'm not that mechanically gifted, I wanted something I can adjust as "easy" as possible.
RaudelandAbby It's a shame that deleting the torsion bars bumps the class up... Unless you're going with a spring rate that's higher than you can get in t-bars, there's no performance upgrade. For PCA, SP1 class must have the torsion bars and SP2 allows you to remove them.
Van Svenson Man I really need to get with PCA ASAP, I'm still trying to figure out the cheapest route to get my racing license. At this point I'm spending money on DE's that perhaps I can use towards a racing license; don't get me wrong, DE's are awesome and the entry point for an average joe like me to drive on our dream tracks, but will eventually need to go for the racing license. As far as the torsion bars, I'm a mess with that decision, on one side I'm somewhat of a purist (growing up in Cuba seen old original cars might have done that), but on the other side I don't mind a little bit of resto-mod. Still, I want to comply with the intent of the rules, and have the car look as original as possible.
RaudelandAbby To get started the PCA Club Racing, talk with the chief instructor or track chair for your region. If they feel you're ready, they can recommend you to the PCA Club Race chair and you can become a rookie racer.
No, I don't. But, in the race cars, I've modified them so I can quickly slide the torsion bars out through a hole in the rocker panel. Makes it really easy to do - just jack up the control arm a little bit to take the twisting pressure off the torsion bar, slide it out a little way, raise or lower the control arm a little bit, then rotate the torsion bar until the splines slide back in to position.
Indexing the torsion bar looks like a pain. The factory ride height in the rear of US cars is too high to meet our crash standards, so I'd like to lower mine to the proper height for handling
I've been reading on Elephant Racing about their "quick change" torsion bars and spring plates (www.elephantracing.com/suspension/springplate/944quickchangespringplate.htm), but, if you take the torsion bar out with the car loaded / or on the ground per se, wouldn't the car come down and all the weight would go to the shock? If ride height is adjusted through the torsion bar, I would think the car would come down when changing the torsion bars with their "5 minute torsion bar swap per side".
Elephant Racing is a great company, and I've used several of their products over the years. But, that spring plate is just a $400 version of my taking an angle grinder to the end-caps! You're right, that "adjustment" screw they have is just a replacement for the eccentric, and should be used for corner balancing and/or minor ride height adjustments. To adjust the torsion bars, I put the car on the lift (or you could do it on jack stands) and then I raise up the control arm with a support post (or you could use a floor jack) until I get to the point that I can simply slide out the torsion bar because there is no "twist" in it. Once the splines are disengaged, I then raise or lower my support post by how much I want to change ride height (e.g. raise the control arm 1/2" to lower the ride height by 1/2"). Then I rotate the torsion bar until the splines line up and it slides back in!
I have decided to remove my torsion bars. Do I (or in your opinion should I) replace the Spring Plate Bushings? Or it that sort of pointless since I'll have no torsion bars?
I would - and use the Racer's Edge delrin or the Elephant Racing poly-bronze. The torsion bar is strong enough it reduces the flexing of the rubber bushings.
But what exactly do you mean with cornering balancing of the rear? I've used those two so called ride height adjustment bolts to lower the rear by about 2 cm, because I use 968 CS springs up front. So to balance it out, I had to lower the rear as well. So I use the method with those two bolts. But you're saying that changing the splines in the torsion bar, is better. Why exactly? I've lowered it with success I must say, I don't experience anything weird while driving. What is exactly this cornering balancing and pre-load what you're talking about? Also it's just so much work to take out the whole rear axle off, just to lower the ride height. So I used the other method which is much easier... But now I hear it was not the best method. I am confused. Even the workshop manual says those two bolts are for ride height adjustment. They did not mention anything about that pre-load and corner balancing what you were talking about.
I explain corner balancing pretty well in this video: 944 corner balance and alignment But the short answer is: picture the two diagonals of the car - front-left to rear-right and front-right to rear-left. This is what supports the weight of the car. If one of the diagonals is supporting more (or less) than 50% of the weight, you get a "see-saw" effect when you transfer weight from side-to-side while you corner. If your corner balance is off, the car will handle differently in right-hand vs left-hand turns - which, if you road race, is bad. If you oval race (think NASCAR) it can actually be a good thing. If you have a street car, it won't be as noticeable. To change the corner balance, you have to move a wheel up or down relative to the chassis of the car. If you have a strut with an adjustable perch at the front, this is the easiest method - you just change the height of that perch. In a stock 944 (non M030) the only method you have is by those rear slip plates. If you move the rear-right wheel up (lower the ride height), the other rear wheel, and the front-right, will be carrying more of the car's weight. If you move both rears the same, it will probably remain pretty close. But, if you really want to know, get it corner balanced and see!
Van Svenson Thanks a lot for the explanation. I use my 944 S '88 as a road car mainly. But I do a lot of spirited drives though. So let's just say I drive it in a "sporty" way. Anyway, when was adjusting the rear height, I pulled out and cleaned those eccentric height adjusting bolts, I marked a line on them exactly at the same spot, on both of them. So that when I adjust the height, I could have these marked lines at exactly the same angle, thus having the ride height at the rear at exactly the same height. I also checked the space between the fenders and the top of the tyre from front to rear and also the height of the car relative to the ground, right in front the back wheel. This is where they usually take the measurement points when measuring height I suppose. Now when I bought the car, it was at the lowest setting in the rear. Because it had awfully low springs at the front. But even in the lowest setting in the rear, it was still a lot higher than at the front. So I thought 968 CS springs would be the best option, because they're factory springs. And so I was right. It got the front up higher, but not too high and not too low. I only had to adjust the rear accordingly. And I noticed during the first test drive, that the car was more balanced, I felt as if there was more spring movement in the rear, and that it took way less load at the rear. I felt that especially when going over bumps. It felt suppler at the back. Unfortunately for me, I do not have the aperture like you do, for corner weight balancing. And I do the alignment at a garage. They did a pretty good job there, I must say. But they do not have weight measurement systems like you do. I just assumed that having the car at the same height both front and rear would do the trick nicely of having as good as possible weight distribution. But what you're saying in that video which you've linked, is that you can actually change the weight load in the rear of the car by these two height adjustment bolts? But then doesn't that also mean that it works for me as a height adjuster as well?
I have a 1988 Porsche 924s that has been sitting for some time. At least 10 years. The rear end doesn't seem as high as it should. I assumed it may need new shocks. Looking at the bliston HD shocks. Is that all I would need to do is change the shocks? Do I need to mess around with that Center spring?
Changing the shocks, while that will improve the ride quality and handling, won't change the ride height. I know that conventional coil springs do sag with age, so maybe torsion bars do, too.
My 944 cabriolet was in garage storage for some time, and when I pulled it out to wash it, I noticed that the right rear was dropped about 1-2 inches lower than the left. Based on the suspension design, am I looking a replacement of shock, or torsion spring?
Thanks. My thought initially also. Weird thing is I jacked it up, let it hang for a few minutes, and it is much closer now left to right, maybe only 1/4 inch difference. It has held this new height for over a month now. Still seems suspicious though, and I'm prepared to repair. If it is shock, that seems like a very easy replacement. Is the shock under load, like a coil set would be? Thanks...
Rob Runkle Yes, the shock is under the torsion bar's load. If the shock is bad, or has some failure that's limiting it's movement, I could certainly see what you're describing.
Ok so u removed the torsion bar both side & than you removed the 6 bolts on spring plates, that's it, than u lifted the spring plate to lower the hight of car... Car we lower more than 3 inch by this method.. Thanks
I am looking to put on coil overs onto my 85.5 944. The coils i would get would also have ride height adjustment setting on them. If I wanted to change the ride height would I also have to change the spline setting?
I have a early 85 porsche 944 and I'm getting a cabin rattle by the shifter behind the shifter where the arm rest is at do u have any idea what it could be it only rattles when I rev it or start getting in to the higher rpm i don't know if it's a plate it feels like it but unsure can you give me some info about it I don't think it's the drive shaft so that's out of the question
Van Svenson thank you for the reply. But I have no idea how to even begin to do so. How much would the suspension lower the car using the bolt method where I can loosen both and turn the back bolt
the `shock absorber is to dampen the movement`.........nope......... what you are calling the shock absorber is the `dampner`.... springs are shock absorbers...........
enrique3402 I bought my 1987 944 when I was 17 and a senior in high school(I'm 21 now paying for college). it was $2,500 on Craig's list with 110k miles. now it's got 176k. but check out Craig's list you might get a steal like me
Verkaufe 924 porsche turbo Baujahr 1979 vol Ausstattung voll verzinkte ab gemeldet seit 1992 Elektronische fenter und Spiegel beheitz voll 5 gang sport Getriebe
I have made a follow-up video, on this excellent video, illustrating more on the principles of how the classic porsche rear suspension works. Greetings from Norway. Enjoy! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-odWRz5Y7Ey8.html
