Let’s consider what it means to have a testimony? Is it based on the Church? Or the Spirit of the Lord? If you feel the church leaders are wrong, you are alone. Isaiah would agree with you. Isaiah 56, Ezekiel 34 and a boatload of other scriptures, would indicate that you are right in that the church leader ship in the last days would become corrupted. Do you reject Jesus now? Joseph Smith was not what others that condemn him say he was. I would have you look at people of Faith that have not taken the path away from our Heavenly Father. A corporation is not God. Although it does teach many many wonderful teaching of Jesus. My son Jorell was in your Ward in Arizona and has a very positive impression of you and your family. Do you reject all the feelings you had from God, the miracles, the faith and everything that you gave to God. Now that you are a celebrity of sorts, can you say that God does not exist? Will this be the Legacy you will give your children. Perhaps you’re just misinformed. Try these researchers: Rob Fotheringham and his experience inside the church. You might also look at Hemlock Knots. No amount of naysayers will ever be able to bend the truth to their will. If the leaders are wrong (and they are), the Lord will condemn them and hold them accountable. Our job is to help our brothers and sisters, and to do as the Lord asked us to do. Love God, with all our heart, my mind and strength, and our neighbor as our self. Jesus did not attach Caiaphas and the leaders of the church in his day. He set the example, can we do no less?
@@petervincent3560 Hi Peter, I really love your son and his family. As far as I know I have never denied that God exists. Do I see enough problems with the Abrahamic religions' conception of God that I no longer believe in that? Yes, I do--but there's an important distinction there that you may be missing. Remember that if someone does not accept your conception of God doesn't mean they've rejected one altogether. Beyond that, I can just say that I hope the legacy I leave to my kids is the desire to--even in the face of severe pressure--stand up for what they think is right. That's all I've done. For the record, I've received (and expected) precisely zero dollars for any podcast appearance I've done. Speaking out publicly has likely severely limited my future career prospects. I've done these things only because I believe it the right thing to do--against my own self-interest in many ways. If my kids end up reaching different conclusions than me about the Church or any other aspects of their lives, I want them to follow what they think is right as I've attempted to do. So if that's the legacy and message they've received from me--I'd be proud. I do not consider myself a naysayer--nor do I appreciate the label. I still have many friends who are active members of the Church who have thanked me repeatedly for these podcast appearances because outside pressure tends to make the Church a better place for those who remain. If you feel the Church is working for you, I am sincerely happy for you and would not want to convince you otherwise. I share my perspective for people who are actively questioning and looking for new ways to think about the narratives that they--like me--were raised with. I personally know that when I started to question and recognize problematic things in the Church, I needed just to feel like I wasn't crazy and people sharing their perspective was huge in helping me process. If my comments don't resonate with you, perhaps they're not just for you? Again, my invitation does stand--if you can correct something I stated that is incorrect, please let me know and I'll amend. Please say hi to Jorell and Trisha for me!
Thank you for always having great videos! I was raised in the church for 33 years and I left about a year ago. It has been quite a shock for my family especially since my dad is the bishop of our ward and my mom and grandparents are very active. I am to the point now where I don’t even know if I believe in God or not because of all of the lies that have been told in the church!
Hi Ashley! Thank you for watching! That’s so hard. I’ve definitely been there. Follow your heart, do what feels right day to day. The good news is, you don’t even have to figure it out. No eternal consequences anymore. And if there IS a God, they will understand where your heart is ❤️
At 34 years so deeply questioning what has been such a giant part of your life must be so hard. And scary. I wish you lots of strength, courage, curiosity and good friends at your side.
Hooray for Ashley. Welcome to the ex-Mormon community. It's not going to be easy as they will never give up on your soul, but just keep in mind that there are many of us out there who will always be by your side and help you see through it all.
@@CultstoConsciousness thank you so much for the support Shelise! My faith crisis has felt earth shattering (I know that sounds dramatic lol) but it has flipped my world upside down! But I am still the same good and loving person so I know that everything will be ok! Thank you for all that you are doing 😊
@@inkenhafner7187 thank you soo much! I really appreciate that and I know that I am making the right choice even though I never thought in a million years I wouldn’t be Mormon lol
I’m not LDS but I did read the BOM. One of my issues was 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9. 15 cities destroyed including innocent children. Straight up genocide. When I bring it up as immoral I’m always shot down. “Sometimes God has to kill innocent children”. WHAT!? Or someone told me it’s ok because all those kids went straight to the celestial kingdom. It had that Old Testament flavor like the Abraham/Isaac thing. Now when I’m asked about being Mormon I always respond with “I can’t lower my moral standards to become Mormon”.
Same with me as I read BOM last autumn but I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem darkness lasted for 3 days and it in 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed at least 10 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that all were killed by Jesus. Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does the same thing when he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator. BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons at all why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and again they just like the plates had to disappear! But absolutely nothing has been found of them which proves it was all just a hoax.
I am native american. I thought because the church said I was jewish that was. The dna proves I am not jewish. The mind games and erasing our culture is evil.
This family is so brave! Their simple recognition that parents have a right to be informed, was correct! And their church told them they weren’t welcome anymore. Protect the children first!!!
Oh my gosh, I related to this so much! I didn’t grow up Mormon, but I came from an evangelical tradition. His “secret tests”, especially in childhood, were things I did, too! And I came to a very similar conclusion: that I was flawed (extra flawed because I was female). Loved this thoughtful, emotional, and analytical take on high demand religions and the lies they sell us so early. Thank you.
Same. I was raised Roman Catholic and thought I deserved to go to hell for not believing enough. Because all the things I was told would happen to "true believers" didn't happen to me. Therefore logic stated that I wasn't a true believer and deserved to suffer in hell for eternity. I was at most 9 when I came to this conclusion. Which is just so wrong on so many levels. Ironically encountering "the real world" made me realize it wasn't the satanist orgy hellhole I'd been expecting. And then the blocks just crumbled and I realized it wasn't that I was a bad Catholic, I just never was one, I was just brainwashed into thinking I was.
I am not a Mormon and I was actually raised atheist but I am so interested in how people construct these ideals in families- so crazy how we can get wrapped up in these crazy ass ideals!
I have always loved archeology. After being out of the church since Covid and having deconstructed a lot, I am taking biological Anthropology to work toward finishing off my AA in college. We have been learning about the different hominins and it is amazing how the human body can adapt!
My dad used to preach that all other religions, including Baptist, were “unaware they were going to hell”. My dad was an Assembly of God pastor. My mom was Baptist when he met my mom. 😮 I went on a mission trip with YWAM and there was a catholic in the group who also said the same thing. All religions do it! It’s hard to wrap your head around it sometimes.
My dad is a Mormon lawyer and is trying to take my kids because I’m trying to leave the church. How could I get I touch with an attorney who can practice in Texas and defend me and my kids? My daughters need me to fight this properly.
I’ve been binging your videos and this has been one of my favorite listens. I’m a very technical thinker, so faith is hard for me. The experience Kolby had teaching the story of Abraham literally has taken the words out of my brain. That story makes me think that I will never be able to be a faithful person because I could never sacrifice my child, or follow such sinister commands BLINDLY. This made me feel very validated because I’ve never heard anyone talk about this story and say what I’ve thought for years.
I’m so happy it resonated! If you’re a technical thinker, here are a few you might also like: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UHpt0y5j9FE.htmlsi=mOygVRrJwGYatYvP ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yT-NTf-v_y4.htmlsi=r4ewefTVjsrf_FWX ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2we1mRVm1tM.htmlsi=BMgQhj6MA0H_vbXS
I'd love to share my experience with you. I'm a spiritual polygamist against my will. I'm sealed to two living women and couldn't get a cancellation despite two meetings with a general authority. I love your platform. Keep doing what you're doing!!!
I can so relate to being a small child and the story of Peter walking on water! It had been so long I almost forgot about it but that is what we were taught as young children. If we had enough faith we could walk on water like Peter. So crazy to think about now but I remember the feelings of inadequacy that it made me feel.
Basically (at least for much of the Church's history), even for adults, especially missionaries, a very similar thing has applied. So many faith-promoting missionary miracle stories have been peddled in church literature, conference talks and so on. Stories about whole congregations miraculously converted because of the faith and courage of a missionary. Stories of miraculous mission healings and conversions talked about incessantly. Stories about casting out evil spirits.... Young missionaries go out thinking that they're going to be so righteous, pure and faithful that they'll personally experience those kinds of grand miracles too. Then the miracles don't happen. They never happen, really. So the missionaries who took the stories at face value blame themselves and/or try to make up miracles out very mundane events. It takes a while for some of them to finally realize that maybe the problem was actually the miracle stories...as in they weren't true at all or they were events that were exaggerated beyond recognition. Some never allow themselves to question to that extent.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Such a good point--and it's absolutely true. When you listen to those "miracle" stories from my position, they really just sound silly and like wishful thinking. I saw a missionary touting it as a "miracle" that an investigator they'd been working with for a long time attended Church for the first time--45 mins late. Separating it out, that's calling a "miracle" the fact that someone showed up somewhere they'd agreed to be almost an hour late. Not sure that should rise to the level of "miraculous."
It’s such a trip to analyze our childhood beliefs. Children have such vivid imaginations where anything is possible. Where it gets problematic is when you damper that creative energy with “worthiness”, right? It would be like saying, “you can be anything when you grow up! IF you don’t sin, pray every day, achieve perfection, etc etc” it’s honestly very abusive.
This is a good video. It is heartbreaking to hear about the young boy attempting to walk on water. It helps me process my deconstruction that has spanned over 20 years. Most of the people that I grew up with in church have continued to be faithful. The church of christ is beyond patriarchal. Women have no value and are not allowed to even speak during the church service. 😢 It makes me sad to realize that it continues year after year. I've wondered about doing a RU-vid about leaving the church of christ. This show helps me to see that we have many high demand church groups.
I am very impressed with your humility, integrity, and humanity in your interviews. You seem to have a seasoned soul. This topic happens all the time in any group or religion. As adults we need to help young parents understand how to assert their authority over any leadership concerning children and youth. Even college age. Those who try to protect an image or a financial resource at the expense of a child are truly misguided. It takes a lot of courage to do the right thing and stand firm. This is not judgement of others as much as protection of innocence. Another great voice and a great warning. Your interviews and guests are well worth the time spent to hear them.
My one friend has 4 kids, they are both super active in the church. But it works for them. They will never leave. I had to leave. It was bad getting a civil divorce.
I listened to this session today (August 24, 2023). It really resonated with me and some of my faith questioning. Raised Methodist, but really have a logical thinking brain. So I view the bible as more of an allegory versus literal history. I believe in a God of Love, and that God doesn’t make errors but the devil is ever present, and we need to love those around us. Skin color does not make someone better, character does. I have almost quite attending church over the LBG…. topic. All are welcome, but are limited in how they participate.
What an organized thinker. Love KR's framework of 'we all are a collection of stories.' Keen: SAS's point linking elevated suicide rates among Utah youth & the 'in the next life you won't be LGBTQ' narrative Had not realized that was an explicit aspect of Church teaching, HUGE YIKES.
One thing I've noticed that a lot of ex Mormons say is "i was told that THE CHURCH WAS TRUE" they shoved that down our throats so bad as children. They beat into your brain 'this is true" blah blah. It's damaging mentally because then you're scared to stand up and leave. My mom still yells at me sometimes about it and I'm 27
It's incredibly damaging because when the façade falls away, many post-Mormons are left questioning every single aspect of their identity and who they are. It can be incredibly freeing and healing when someone gets to that level, but it makes it so much harder to originally get there.
@@reddish22 yes! My grandmother is 73, been a Mormon her whole life, and she's dealing with that. She called me one day and asked "what do you think about the church?" So I was honest because I always am. Turns out she had been researching other branches of Christianity because she finally learned about all the crap the LDS church has done. She said "Jessie i really don't know how to feel.. I've been lied to for so long". Broke my heart but I'm so proud of her for educating herself
Lol! After Covid, it bothered me the Prophet did not come out beforehand and warn us of what was to come. I think I had a better insight as a person having a near death experience. I felt and knew something bad was coming our way. But what hit me was, why in the world down to kids we bear our testimony saying we know this church is true and state JS is our true prophet. I sat there thinking why are we all programmed to say the same thing. I know there is a God. He has a son, Jesus Christ. I may not agree with everything the LDS Church teaches but I will say one must connect with the earth in order to be spiritually inclined. Ground yourself to find their presence and the spirit of those who are no longer with us. May peace be with you.
@@jessicabland6134wow that is beautiful I wish I could talk to my grandmother about the church… it’s caused so much damage to the women in my family :(
Love love LOVE your guests and discussions! Sadly slavery is still alive today in being Mormon 🫣🤫😥 Thank you for all you do in helping give critical thinking, pondering, and retrospect a voice with clarity ❤ raised in this corporation from birth with a strong pioneer heritage preached, never given my consent. I've had my work cut out for me and I'm forever grateful to the brave souls who dare be true to themselves and share it openly & publicly. I find my thoughts and words given a voice. This brings me the courage and strength I need 🥰 TY TY TY! Yes to Part 2 here!! ps loving your rose quartz in the background, definitely influencing the love energies 💝
I know it’s probably not the greatest place to bring this up, but Kolby brought up slavery ending, and I thought it prudent to mention that it hasn’t really ended, it just evolved. Now we only make incarcerated people slaves! Now, instead of not paying people, companies outsource their labour to 3rd world countries to maximize profits… basically, without an underclass to exploit, capitalism doesn’t really work. Anyway, I really enjoyed this conversation! I left the church almost two decades ago, but I just sort of stopped going for my own sanity, and never really debriefed, so now I’m obsessively looking at other ex Mormons and their experiences to sort of come to terms with what I may have left behind, and how I view myself and the church and the world at large now that I’ve been so far removed from living the life. Thanks for sharing!
That's a really good point--there are still many, many problems for humanity to work on navigating and solving together: including slavery and it's abhorrent extensions. I did not mean to suggest the work is completely done. In that sense, my point wasn't that Enlightenment thinking has solved all of our problems, just that we know it is the one tried-and-true way to do so eventually.
You bring up a valid point. Something to sit with for sure. Im happy this video can be helpful! Best of luck to you on your deconstruction/re-construction!
While in the Navy stationed at Pearl Harbor, Hi, I experienced constantly, the in your face evangelization of these missionaries constantly. It didn't work, they even took me to a church dance and introduced me to this gorgeous Mormon woman, hoping this would bring me into the Church. Needless to stay it didn't work.
Ohhh yes. They have a huge presence in hawaii. Thanks to BYU over there. In fact, I was dead set on attended byu hawaii when I was a junior in HS. So glad I didn’t. Even though hawaii is amazing
@james maranki I'm not Catholic, but I always wondered if it's because they took so many Catholic terms for their own use. (Priest, Bishop, sacrament, etc) They even have their own form of confession (telling your "bishop" your sins). Ironic that the Catholic church is 2000 years old and the Mormons are just over 200 years old. Just my own guess.
I totally have respect for lawyers. My uncle was a lawyer, and so was my cousin. My cousin managed to pass the bar here. I was a convert in the church. My uncle was a notary, and he notarized my exit letter.
Lawyers are servants of the tyrannical and completely fraudulent construct of man-made laws. There is only one authority, and that's God. There is no authority among men. Natural law (God's law) is the only valid law. Men pretending to have authority are only mimicking, and mocking, God.
We started deconstructing our faith on a more critical level while at University as well. We had nightmares and flashbacks after anthropology class because of the information about evolution. We felt SO guilty for getting an A in the class. How sick is that? 🙀
with regard to Abrahamic sacrifice, I find it fascinating that the mormon doctrine of the age of accountability presents every mormon parent with the most horrific of choices: You can guarantee the exaltation of your children, but only if you give up your own. (Hopefully, I don't have to spell out how.) Essentially, every mormon who has children over the age of 8, either doesn't understand the doctrine, doesn't believe the doctrine or is selfishly unwilling to give up their salvation in exchange for the child's exaltation. Can this really be the plan of a loving God?
To Kranio. I don’t understand, I don’t know. I have been a member for many years and sincerely don’t know what you meant by this. I know you said you hoped not to explain.
@Brasguven I need to begin with a disclaimer: I don't believe that most members would consider the following, BUT it has happened and should be taken seriously. According to the church, all children who die before the age of 8 are guaranteed exhaultation in the celestial kingdom. So if you have a child under the age of 8, you have a choice to make. You can commit murder and punch your child's ticket to the celestial kingdom while simultaneously excluding yourself from glory or you can keep your options open and hope that your kid makes good choices. I can't imagine a loving God would even allow such a choice to exist, but according to mormonism it absolutely does and there have been cases of mothers killing their kids before dying by suicide just so there kids make it to the celestial kingdom. There are plenty of other ridiculous conclusions we can draw from this doctrine as well, but this one is bad enough and mormonism should be rejected based on this fact alone.
Real Truth Resonates. Real Honest Truthers only Recognize what Honestly RESONATES . anything else is circumspect. Truth Stands on it's Own. Doesn't ever need to be ' propped ' up. Actual Facts will always self Verify and Validate themselves
Two things: Muslims tell the sacrifice story about Ishmael and they see themselves as descended from Ishmael. Second there’s a similar story in Greek mythology-Agamemnon sacrificing Iphigenia. And the Greek one is really rough because she’s only saved in a later story where it is “ revealed” that Diana secretly saved her and replaced her with a deer. Highly recommend Joseph Campbell for seeing the archetypes that run throughout human history/story/myth. (For me this is evidence of a shared divine essence, and I also know this can bring some to atheism/agnosticism. And that’s okay too.)
Thank you Shelise & Kolby for such a thoughtful interview. Upon reflection I agree with Kolby's advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, life, death, agriculture, civilization building as humans passed from nomadic hunter gatherer groups to fixed agricultural societies that became city builders. (Hence Abraham's 12 tribes settled down first in Egypt then conquered their own place.) Old testament is a description of early civilizations with ritual sacrifices of animals, children, whole cities to justify the creation of Hebrew religious state. Ditto that for millenia up till 1830s Upstate New York.
It's a bit of a misnomer to conflate "religion" with *faith* and *belief*. To be sure, there have been many things done in error (falsehood) within the realm of "religion". But -- done due to falsehood. Which leaves the other side -- things done in Truth //// " .... advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, ... //// Religion is not the same as faith. Yes, you may do away with a great deal of "religion", but you cannot eliminate the need for faith -- both empirical faith and spiritual faith. Reliance upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data still requires faith -- both to believe in: 1. the consistancy of the empirical experience (i.e. the belief that it has always been that way, and it always will be that way) 2. the absence of anything beyond the empirical (i.e. the belief that there is nothing beyond what can be empirically known). Our human experience incorporates functions of both knowledge (Latin scientia -- knowledge) and belief, faith. For a quick overview of epistemology, complete the following sentences: I *know* something when _________________________ I *believe* something when _________________________ Do you *know* that your car will start the next time you turn the key in the ignition? Or do you *believe* that it will. Do you *know* that you will be alive ten minutes after reading this? Or do you *believe* that you will.
The last part of this interview reminds me of a passage from Tim Minchin’s Storm…Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
@@CultstoConsciousness if you get a chance, Tim Minchin is an incredibly talented musician, song writer and articulate humanist & atheist. Some of his best works on the subject. But be warned he can use a bit of salty language. 🤣 Prejudice - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KVN_0qvuhhw.html Thank you god - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IZeWPScnolo.html Storm - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jIWj3tI-DXg.html The pope song - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JkOHDoEkPW0.html And thank you for your compassionate interviews!
The Adam and Eve biblical story is essentially a fan-boy fiction based on earlier (I recall) Sumerian or Cannan text. Each temple for a god had a garden and those who worked in the garden. The better foods (e.g. tree of life in the biblical story) were saved for priests or offerings to gods and the workers wete usually banned from eating of the good produce, under pain of death (most penalties were death). God uses the plural in Genesis, as it was originally written for a pantheon of Gods. It's pretty much undisputed in bible scholar circles that the origional books of the old testament were written and re-written and added to that eventually elevated Yahweh (the storm/war god) and then he became the only god (despite him commanding there shall be no OTHER gods before him).
Superb podcast 👏 Thank you! 🙏. I read Book of Mormon last autumn but after that I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, where he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem the darkness lasted for 3 days (in America) and according to 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed probably 15 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not only a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that they all were killed by Jesus! Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does exactly the same thing, he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator, a cult leader. Joseph Smith was no different from our time's FDLS prophet Warren Jeffs who just followed Smith's doctrine about polygamy - yes Doctrine & Covenant 132 is still holy scriptures in the LDS church!! If we judge Warren Jeffs as a false prophet even a monster then JS should be judged likewise, Warren is just a follower of JS and Brigham Young (who had about 54 wives). BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and of course they just like the plates had to completely disappear. But absolutely nothing has been found of them which is enough scientific proof that it was all just a hoax.
To belittle, mitigate, or cover-up/ deny that abuse happened and to keep the abuser around Vulnerable Populations is not only immoral, but it is endangerment. The abused suffer long after, even the abuser is no longer present in the abused victim's life. Such things include: PTSD, CPTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Suicidal Ideation, and Death. Also, depending on the type of abuse, there are additional issues as well.
This channel is very helpful; I really thought members of controlling religions knew more about other perspectives on faith and, among Christians, their denomination's "place" in the pantheon 😉 of variations. I didn't realize I was so lucky to be raised in a boring, mainline protestant free thinking church. I want so badly to be full of justified rage at the behavior of many Christians affiliated with these zealous denominations. but understanding the brainwashing & manipulation involved, it's heart breaking to see and hear the actual reality. I am not a Christian, but am Jesus-centered ethically...I just wish everyone in those faith groups, which seem to actively avoid focusing of Jesus' main points, could know the completely accepting and loving Jesus that I was taught about.
Very interesting and very good. It's true - having time to think about things is privileged (we also had babies - our first 3 in the first 4 years of my own legal career - as a mother working full time as a lawyer in the UK - and you just go with the flow of your existing religion when you hardly have a second and getting time for a shower even is hard. In my case it was Catholicism which is nothing like the requirements of mormonism other than I was going to church once a week. Shelise might say she had not experienced the discriminations of some others, but being female you are massively discriminated against in many religions.
I was raised Christian-ish, my grandparents were lay speakers in the United Methodist church and I grew up with my grandmother reading and telling bible stories a lot and stuff, but didn't really get into religion myself until my teenage and young adult years, but I definitely tried the walking on water thing at the pool when I was a kid, too, after she told me that one. 🤣
Where can I share the experience I had when I was in a high counsel in a stake of Ecuador with some returned missionaries that were having a moral behavior serving in Bolivia..?
Just saw the part where Kolby's discussion as to how the story of Abraham and Isaac was a big part of of losing faith. I'm not from a Morman background but I totally get where he's coming from. As the late Christopher Hitchens said: If anyone were to come to me and tell me to sacrifice my child to show obedience to them, my reply would be "no, fuck you."
Yep, the "image of the religion"/ "bringing reproach on Jehovah's name" is the number one repeat drilled very slyly, constantly, super righteously, into your brain. (exJW here)
The walking on water 🌊 hits me. 6 year old kids should not be taught so seriously any religion. I have religious trauma about going to hell from WAY too much religion at a young age. It's not healthy!!
Traumatic memories. Raised Pentecostal..fire and brimstone scare tactics. I was terrified as a child. Then the movie "Earthquake" came out..I had nightmares for months of being crushed in an earthquake because I was not good enough.
@@millied4089 I fell asleep before prayers one night and had a terrible nightmare. I thought that was God punishing me for missing my prayers. I must have been 6 years old. No child should be that afraid of God, but that's how my brain absorbed the information. Make him happy or else. So sad for little me.
I converted to the church. After the initial new convert excitement wore off, I realized that the church wasn’t for me. As a 43 year old man finding a companion is next to impossible at that age unless you want to be a step dad to 3+ kids. Which I wasn’t looking for, I wanted someone younger so I can have my own kid(s). I told the two sister missionaries who taught me, one was supportive the other blocked me on Facebook.
Great episode! I am amazed that Mormons interpretation of Christianity is to mimic Christ. We are not Christ. We are deeply flawed according to most Christians, and Christ died to atone for sins.
The Abraham and Isaac story never felt right to me...especially since Abraham had almost been sacrificed by HIS father to a "false idol". How is what God told him to do any different!? And did Sarah even have informed consent on the matter? I don't remember. She had waited and prayed for her only kid. How is God loving by telling her husband to off her kid?!
I would like somebody to interview Dan Reynolds’s (lead singer Imagine Dragons). I had heard that when he was getting married to his wife, they are very good friends and I guess ex roommates were a gay couple and I guess they were very tight friends and when the gay couple was invited to the wedding, they said they had to decline because of dance being linked to the Mormon church, and that’s where the wedding was taking place. I had also learned that Diane had thrown some sort of a free concert near the Salt Lake City Mormon, main church, and that I had made apparently an impression on the church but I would like to know if that impression lasted and how long it lasted if Dan feels that that impact that he made was positive fleeting, temporary permanent, I would just love to know. I feel since you guys have a equal type of background in your religion that it might be easier to have a an honest in-depth conversation about this with him…. I don’t know it’s just a thought.
I get the idea of being understanding, but I've reached the point where I can't understand a people who will not call the police regarding criminal abuse of any kind. #obeyinhonoringandsustainingthelaw #areyouhonest
Jew here, the story of Issac. 1. Issac was NOT a baby. 2. As disgusting as the Issac story feels, it is kind of important in the context of the time. Many ancient religions had human sacrifice. The Issac story was a way to very clearly show that Abrahams god (later to be seen as a monotheistic god) does NOT condone or require human sacrifice.
That is a very good interpretation of the Abraham and Isaac story, much better than what I ever grew up with. Mormonism has leaders that actively teach this is the kind of faith required today--the faith to give these kinds of sacrifices.
Except later in the bible where he requires and accepts the sacrifice of a human girl in exchange for giving her father victory in battle. Except she’s a girl so not only does she not even get a name, she’s barely even a footnote and rarely ever discussed
Hey, how about being told to not say anything as a victim of abuse by either the enabler or the abuser to the victim themselves? Trust me, it happens, not just in a religious context, but just abusive situations.
As a balance to all of these channels I think I'm going to post a video about how I completely lost my mind and joined some wacky religion...in my old age. I've never understood how anyone could look at something like the Christian bible...or The Book of Mormon (whatever)....and think this stuff is kinda true. I didn't understand those kind of beliefs when I was seven-years old. I must be weird - never had to deconstruct.
You're right--I didn't want to get into the whole complicated narrative of Ishmael and Hagar because it wasn't central to the story of the actual sacrifice, but thanks for pointing that out.
But . . . .Even the Mormon Endowment rhetoric, or instruction, does state that the presentation is "simply figurative as far as the man and woman (Adam and Eve) are concerned."
The Book of Mormon does not allow for a metaphorical Adam and Eve. 2 Nephi 2, which is probably some of the strongest Book of Mormon theology in my view is an entire discussion about the "Fall" that came about through Adam and Eve. I referenced this in my comments, too, not just the Endowment. I know there will be Mormons, like me for over a 15 years, who say they continue to believe despite not believing in a literal Adam and Eve. Only they can define their beliefs, but I can speak for me being in that position and the reality was I hadn't gone through a reconciliation of my beliefs. Once I did so, I recognized that my beliefs weren't on a solid foundation--just like my brother.
@@reddish22 True, which points to the ever-evolving Mormon doctrine over time, even in Joseph's day. But the Endowment does say that. No more for me, and that's been 25 years now.
‘Having the space to go through a faith crisis is a privilege’ PREACH never heard it put that way but it is soooo true. The whole stereotype of the Angry Atheist is from people who just don’t have the compassion to see that, for some people, staying within their belief system (no matter how wrong you may think it is) is their best option. A faith crisis is honestly a horrible experience. It’s like, you need some form of consent for that type of thing.
Imo, clergy or any other person in a position of authority, and/or trust regardless of job or responsibilities [i.e. Bishop, teacher; etc.], especially when Vulnerable Populations are involved of whom they're around and responsible for NEED the toughest laws against them and the highest form of punishment for such parties found guilty. Imo, such people destroy lives whether through life-ending abise or abuse that they end up surviving death by slim chances. It is the same, there's a victim in all of this and they deserve justice.
Yeeeeeah... Adam and Eve was my first thoughts towards deconstruction from catholocism... somewhere around 3rd grad i got in trouble for asking who Cain and Able's wives were... like, where did THEY come from???? Bc otherwise, we've got Adam, Eve, then Cain and Able... soooo... incest then? What women did Cain and Abpe impregnate so that our species could then go forth and take over the earth like a cancer?... I mean, their mom is the only female anywhere in the story... just saying those 4 were NAAAASTY. But also, what you said about walking on water... that got my "bullshit meter" working too, since I grew up in and around water and I knew objectively that it was not possible. I did spend a long time trying to wish/pray myself into being a mermaid, just like Mr. Limpet turned himself into a fish. That seemed more likely and realistic to me...
In the noahs ark story the result is surely repopulation through incest again, I mean only noahs family survived. I never got why god would kill all but 2 of each animal, I don't remember god being angry at how the aninals were behaving only the humans so why kill them too? Also when you are down to 1 breeding pair of a species they are not going to survive. The more you look at the stories in the bible the more problems you find with them
17:47 Your story about your grandpa is an unhealed hurt. This is why you still cry when you talk about it and him 🩵 Having some of my own, It may always hurt. I try to live with mine as a true expression of love, even though it's painful 🩷😢
I’m commenting after it posted a month ago. I wanted to share a thought regarding the disenfranchised groups. I am a mother of Seven. My last two were born with Downs. They are now 28, 26 a girl and boy. The story that was shared with me at least 7 times a year was presented this way: a person would want to take me aside and share something very important. “. You know why your children have Down Syndrome? Well, I heard that a Down syndrome (boy or girl as it varied as each one would tell me this special piece of information) who received their patriarchal blessing, and they were told that the reason they came to earth with this particular disability was because they escorted Satan out of heaven. The disability is to protect them from temptation, and any attacks from him, while they were here on earth.” No kidding, God wasn’t powerful enough to throw him out and all the Downs kids had that job.. The first time I heard this, I was stunned. But throughout each year , members of the church felt I needed to know this inflated legion about why I had Down Syndrome children. The story really sent up red flags for me. When I advocated for them and chose not to have them baptized because of uniformed consent with IQ of 45. I felt that if the church taught they would go straight to the celestial kingdom regardless: well that’s not true either, because each bishop gets to decide if he thinks they should or shouldn’t be baptized, not the parents! My bishop acted like I was nuts and said they should be baptized. I said a firm No! Then suddenly they were not invited to participate nor allowed to do any functions or positions because they weren’t baptized. I took my complaints to two different Stake Presidents..” they’ll get back to me…”. It has been 15 years and I’m not waiting anymore! The roller coaster ride of faith versus reality of the treatment we received and the constant struggle of hearing and being told “ it’s so unfair for you to expect us to include them when we are not trained to care or be around those kind of children.” I responded often, “ it doesn’t take training to be kind and inclusive. Do unto others… But to no avail, we were slowly moved to come to sacrament meeting, then go across the street to the Community Bible church and they could atttend Sunday school classes there. No joke! Other church’s were arms wide open. Christ ‘s love met us at the door. Needless to say , we only go where there is love…. and it’s not at the ward. They think at the Ward; if they give a hug or say hi, or even open the door as the kids ran off down the street. No clue nor wanting to really help or support us with inclusion. I never advocated harder than at church until I just stopped the madness. Then in 2020 the thousands of red flags fell on me and I decided to look into the church as if I didn’t know anything. I was 5th generation and put a 6th and 7 th generation into this cult. I’m free. I’m deconstructing from 69 years of indoctrination. I do believe in God. I’m not having a faith crisis, but a shock at the lies, gaslighting, excuses, and so many things I’ve uncovered. Thank you for all that you’ve shared and gave us a place to learn from others. I wasn’t alone all this time, I just didn’t know it .
Hi Gayla! Thank you so much for sharing. Wow that sounds absolutely awful and I’m sorry you had to go through that. It really is sad that they claim to be Christ’s true church but don’t live up to the name. Congrats on finding peace and best to you on your journey!❤️🙏
Regarding the Abraham/Son issue: There is an interesting article in the German "Jüdische Allgemeine" from 2015 in which Omri Boehm explains why the story was originally different. Actually, it's about showing that Abraham does NOT kill his son. Quote: "It is traditionally assumed that this story is a lesson in absolute obedience. The question posed there, read like this, is: Must the believer obey whatever God commands him to do, regardless of the ethical content of the commandment? And the answer is : Yes Abraham did the right thing religiously in obeying God's patently improper command, even if it was unethical I will now attempt to show that two verses of this biblical story are in fact post-additions to the original text around verses 11 and 12, where the angel of the Lord stops Abraham from killing his son at the last moment. If you take those verses out again, you have a self-contained but completely different story." And further: "I'll quote the text of the Torah: »And they came to the place that God had named him, there Abraham built the altar and piled up the wood and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar on top of the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son." At this point the angel appears and intervenes. But if we omit this passage, the text goes on like this: "Then Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw : It was a ram that was caught by its horns in a bush. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up as a sacrifice instead of his son." Abraham decides for himself and on his own responsibility - without the intervention of the angel - God instructions not to be followed. I contend that this was precisely the reason for post-insertion of the angel passage, to reverse a theological message of disobedience. However, if you read the story as I do and then look into other passages of the Torah, you will find a disobedient Abraham there as well. For example in Moses 1 chapter 18, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. God tells Abraham there that he will destroy all of Sodom and Gomorrah. And Abraham comes up to God and says: 'Will you take away the righteous with the wicked? (...) Shame on you! Shouldn't the judge of all earth do justice? Can the same Abraham who so contradicts God a few chapters later wordlessly bind his son on the altar for sacrifice? I claim no." The article is entitled "Judentum ist Ungehorsam" (Judaism is Disobedience) and was published on 02/24/2015. It's easy to find and you can then fully translate it.
Interesting! I’m not now and never have been Mormon but microbiology, biology and physiology in college convinced me that God IS real. For me, the intricate, delicate and complicated composition of human beings and animals in general, just makes crawling out of a primordial ooze implausible. God being properly and realistically presented in religions….also implausible.
The story is still terrible but, issac was not a baby he was like a teenager or in his 20s. He Carried the wood up mountain for his own sacrifice. It’s why people say it is a type of Jesus.
Ex-Mormons need to start learning to say "The Mormon Church" instead of "The Church" because noone but Mormons calls it that. There are a zillion other churches out there.
Hi Craig! It’s so engrained in our brains. Also, I would argue that if you’re watching a video on Mormonism, using the shortened version “church” instead of “the Mormon church” or its actual name “the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” would still make sense given the context. When I do interviews with other Cults, it’s the same. Ex Jehovah’s Witnesses and even ex Scientologists all refer to it as “the church”.
I believe if LDS (Mormons) would just set aside the BOM, PGP, & D&C to just read The Holy Bible instead they'd get it. They'd understand if only somewhat there is NO "true" religion.
Define woke, and then provide examples. Oh, and if you want to define ‘woke’ as a cult, you’re gonna need to inform us who the leader is, how the power structure works, where the central hub compound is, and what religion they follow
The science of Evolution does not disprove the Biblical Adam and Eve. For Evolution to even get started you need a self replicating organism. Even if its a single celled organism it is not something that can ever form itself. You need an incredibly intelligent agent to account for first life with a massively advanced digital genetic code for life to continue on. So you can't discount the miracle of life itself by observing small changes over time and making huge extrapolations to explain how humans got here. It's an old outdated theory that had huge holes.
With the story of Abraham and Isaac, God was just testing Abraham to see if Abraham was willing to do what God was going to have to allow his only begotten son, Jesus (Yeshua) to do, to die to give everyone in the world the opportunity for salvation...Abraham at 100 years old would never have even had the opportunity to have generations after him, had it not been for God allowing 90 year old Sarah to conceive. God was also testing Abraham to see if he put that Son before God. There is a huge difference between us and Abraham in the way that God spoke with Abraham directly on a consistent basis...Abraham trusted God that he would not have him do anything that was not necessary. We do not understand what it is like to worship and be subject to a King. Our God is the King of all Kings, and he is ultimate love...The Kings of this world required the death of many at their spoken word to keep law and order. We have an amazing king that will be coming shortly with a rod of Iron in his hand and will bring his wrath upon those who do not have a testimony of Yeshua and do not keep God's Law (Torah). It is up to every individual to either choose God or choose the adversary...there will be no fence sitters. If we have self-sovereignty, and are not choosing God, we will not be gathered in the first resurrection and we will have fire and brimstone sent down from the destroying angels to consume us. And those in the 2nd resurrection will be consumed in the lake of fire with the adversary and his host of fallen angels.
you can not speak for any religious institution, other than maybe the mormons, Any high demand is relative, how much is enough in service to God,.. how much is enough in service to your child or your family? For example...? This is left for Individuals to decide In their respect of religions... And for no one else, including yourself to label them as such.
It was kinda of like the game Jenga to me. I was a very literal believer in the Church, when I pulled out a number of blocks (dogma) that are obviously wrong, then at some point, the whole tower comes falling down and that is what happened to me. So I went from a TBM to eventually an agnostic. I am done with religion in general. I still am a spiritual person but I am done with mythology.
Personally, I've never heard anyone make a logical and convincing case for the "atonement". Of course there are a lot of assertions made for it. "It had to be that way." "It's the only way for fallen humanity to be reconciled with God". "Only the sacrifice and death of God's only begotten son could be a sufficient offering". Things like that. But logically....? If God is the creator--the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator, lord and master of everything--who planned everything from the beginning, then God is also ultimately responsible for the whole show. The "fall" is like God created a flawed vehicle for the souls of humanity, then blamed humanity when the wheels fell off. Then told them that he was disgusted with humanity and could never be reconciled with such pathetic, dirty and sinful creatures...UNLESS...they could be manipulated into brutally murdering his only perfect and begotten son...then he could be persuaded by that murdered son to forgive humanity...but wait...if he was murdered, how can he be persuading anyone about anything? Turns out, he was "murdered" but not murdered murdered. He was really immortal all along, had a bad 3-day weekend and then bounced back with a better body and all or more superpowers than ever. And that was the "sacrifice" he made for humanity. Meanwhile (in the Mormon version of the "Plan of Salvation"), struggling humanity still has to pay 10% of any money they ever get to some guys in Salt Lake City (who are in charge of handling money for God), wear underwear sold to them by the Church and (among other things) agree not to drink tea, in order to fully benefit from the "atonement". I guess it could be a real thing. But, since I'm not very clever at understanding really complex things, it just looks like a racket to me.
Hi Gary. I'll just say I do not believe in the premise of the need for an atonement. While I do not believe people are perfect, including myself, I do not believe we're irredeemably broken without the sacrifice of some other person/being.
@@reddish22 The need for, and the plan of atonement only make sense from a Biblical understanding of creation and the fall. The Mormon interpretation does not provide this. It has to do with The Nature of God -- in particular the inability of God to have a positive relationship with sin (disobedience to God) and therefore separation from God (death), and created man's free will -- including the capacity to sin (disobey God). Satan introduced rebellion to man by twisting and challenging God's words (" ....you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”) -- replacing the meaning of "die" (death -- separation of the soul from God) with physical death ("You will not surely die, ...” physically) Atonement is not just to fix something that is " ...irredeemably broken" -- it's to fix something that is *redeemably* broken -- our relationship with God. Jesus offered His Sinless life (which did *not* have to die) in fulfillment of God's law of sin and death, so that by our faith in His fulfillment of that, we can have access to a relationsip with God. * *At One* ment -- with God. * greatly over-simplified -- just hitting the high points. It's all explained in the Bible -- but you have to actually read it -- not just say that you believe it's God's Word.
@@sagesaith6354 Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'm very familiar with the Biblical justification for Christ's atonement and sacrifice. Even as a Mormon, the New Testament always resonated with me much more than the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants (for example I was a teaching assistant at BYU for the New Testament courses). That said, nothing you've said here is really different from the typical Mormon conception of the atonement and the Fall. Please note my comment did not say we're irredeemably broken in a vacuum--I provided the condition of the sacrifice, which agrees with everything you've said. I no longer believe these things--but it's not because I do not understand the scriptures or why they resonate with people. If your Christian faith is important to you and causes you to be a better person, I'm sincerely happy for you and am not trying to convince you to leave that faith.
