Hmmm.... I do have a very 18+ idea for why Siegfried would give you a dragon costume... well he's known for piercing or thrusting his sword into a dragon and when a man mentions piercing or thrusting their sword into someone else. Well that can have a different meaning, I think you see where I'm going with that. I don't think that's what they were going for... but than again we have mana transfer in Fate and it is originally an eroge so wouldn't put it past them.
Thanks for the video. I think the dragonification Seigffied experiences is just the result of the power of the dragon getting stronger as he ascends. The blood of the dragon giving him near invulnerability in fgo has been called a curse as well, so what we see might the manifestation of that curse growing stronger as he does. I think this curse might be actually true when you consider what happens with Seig is given the heart of Seigfried. He gets gets a lot stronger physically but as he uses the black command spells, his body is slowly converted to that of the evil fafrnir. As Seig is a homunculus and not the servant Seigffied, being given the power fully engulfs him whilst it only adds draconic features to Siegfried.
If Siegfried wasn’t as strong of a warrior as he was, he might have been fully converted into the dragon aswell. His body and spirit is overall stronger than the dragons curse, as he did kill the dragon afterall, so the worst thing the curse could do the Seigfried is adding some dragon features to him and maybe degrade his humanity. We don’t know how Seigfried was before killing the dragon, he might have been more competent with political and interpersonal connections before becoming the dragon slayer. After all, being associated with dragons in Europe come with more trouble than what it’s worth in fgo. My primary ex of this is Artoria who has a dragon heart. This might help her be the ideal king, but made her unable to fully understand the hearts of humans. Of course, Artoria had her own beliefs which she thought was best, but ultimately lead to her downfall. So basically, having ties with dragons really isn’t that good in most instances😂
I think that the angle of Siegfried being someone who was 'born' a hero and just went through his life granting the wishes of others because that's what he was expected to do to be fascinating. It's taking the logical extreme of 'with great power comes great responsibility'. There are definitely elements of him being a little too accommodating for his own good in the original myth as well so it's understandable where the concept came from even if they took it a bit too far.
Traum has definitely been the best material Siegfried has gotten in a long time, I'm looking forward to future events with him now that Kriemhild is around.
I think the whole thing with Siegfried becoming like a dragon is mostly about what they decided to do with Fafnir, dragons in general and the recurring myths of people turning into dragons within the worldbuilding of the Nasuverse. Dragons are supposed to be powerful conceptual entities and the magic of the Nasuverse often has tradeoffs. It makes sense that the Nasuverse version would have it that taking the power of a dragon makes you more like one and that Fafnir's curse can be passed on. It fits with other stuff that eats away at people's humanity. I feel like what they did with his connection to Fafnir should've been tied to his death.
No, it just naturally fell into their hands. They even use the gold that is a part of it as one of the material foundations for the Greater Grail, so they had it BEFORE they ever had the chance to start summoning Servants. The fact that Das Rheingold is cursed might have also played a part in how fucked every Grail War has gone, since now we know that even before Angra infected it, the Fuyuki Grail was made with the cursed Rheingold.
The Reingold is actually one of Siegfried's NPs that can manifest in a different location then Siegfried when he is summoned. It causes a mental pollution in the people near it causing them to fight over the Reingold to the point of murder
Wary simple....it was Astolfos idea. I honestly can 100% imagine Sigfried not being wary good at gifts, so he asked Astolfo fore advice and this was the only sensible suggestion Astolfo made
Changes aside, I still love Siegfried as a character. He was great in Apoc (what little we got to see of him) and I really like his design. I also like that they added Kriemhild to FGO, and the amount of material for the two that’s sprung up since (both official and fan-made)
Tarnkappe is mentioned by Seigfried in Sigurd's Interlude of all places when Sigurd asks if he has grown weaker. Siegfried said that according to what metric and gave the example that being summoned the Saber class loses his access to Tarnkappe. So you could say Seigfried has grown weaker as a servant by that metric.
With whats written i think that Siegfried cut off a few of his actual scales that davinchi used to make the costume, which sounds bad at first but- it does let you fly for 5 turns and thats 5 turns i don't usually have.
I had no idea Sigurd existed as a separate servant, they are clearly the same original legend, I'm pretty sure Tolkien's position was that Sigurd is the original name and Siegfried the later corruption. The justification for separating them you could just easily apply to Arthur, the Welsh tradition is way more different from the French tradition we're used to. These two are separated while Elizabeth Bathory gets merged with Carmilla simply because they're both Eastern European Noblewomen associated with Vampires. As someone who's been into Carmilla for longer then I have Anime I have several Pet Peeves with how she's adapted and that's one of them.
From a meta standpoint, they had to separate them because Brynhildr and Brunhilde (as well as Kriemhild and Gundrun) have extremely different roles to the point that the roles of who is the main love interests are basically switched (and Gundrun is outright a villain as well). When they made Brynhildr directly based in the Norse version of the myth, the two characters were basically impossible to consolidate at this point. In any case, there isn't a proper "root legend". Both Sigurd and Siegfried can be found around the same time historically, so we don't even know which one is the original, or if the 'proto-legend' both originate from is just lost to time. Regarding Carmilla vs Bathory... At least Bathory Assassin (which is named Carmilla in the franchise) only takes the name out of the novel connection. Assassin Bathory is not a vampire, and her bloodsucking skill only mentions bathing in blood, which is what Bathory already does. Which means a 'True Carmilla' as a Vampire has never been actually addressed by Fate.
@@saxor96 Like Arthur I believe there real historical figures behind them, Gunther is even well known to late Roman History. But that could be the second Gunther. I'll consider being more forgiving of the Bathory fiasco if a proper Mircallla Karnstein becomes a servant.
@@saxor96 Though it should be mentions that there are some nods to the actual Carmilla in the older Bathory Erzsébet. Like how in the summer form the names of her dogs are Spielsdorf and Rheinfeldt. Those were the names of General Spielsdorf (one of the people who hunted Carmilla in the novella) and his niece Bertha Rheinfeldt who was a previous victim of her (before she targeted the protagonist, Laura).
Great video, and a nice short explanation of the Nibelungenlied, as far as I can remember from when we had it in school lol. Regarding 3:38, Siegfried's upgrade not only makes him a really good buster Looper, but arguably one of the best. His regular looping dmg is nothing special (400k on w3, that's around Koyan/Oberon/Barghest level) but his anti-dragon damage is what makes him so absurd. Importantly, Dragon is one of the most common "niche" traits, i.e. one that isn't a gender, attribute or alignment. That's because A) wyverns are one of the most pervasive type of common enemy, they're everywhere and B) *all* versions of Artoria, Elizabeth and Shuten are dragons. Those 3 alone make up 26 different servants. When we add the rest of the dragon servants, we get a pool of 40 dragon-trait servants. But Dragon-trait servants have a much higher appearance rate as farming node bosses, due to Elizabeth's status as the Event Queen, Shuten's status as some dev's favorite and Artoria's status as... well, Artoria. Siegfried, when up against Dragons, hits an insane *1.000.000* dmg. That is a whole million damage... without class advantage... per target. For comparison, regular Artoria has a w3 damage of 580k (or 680k if you have MLB Rising Mud Rain) so he overshoots her by almost half, at equal NP level. This makes Siegfried the 5th strongest buster Looper in the entire game, when you're fighting Dragons. For some more info, the top 5 strongest buster loopers when hitting their anti-traits, in order, are: 1. Maou Nobunaga (1.35 million dmg against Divine *and* Sky targets) 2. Mordred (1.26 million dmg against Artoria targets *and* with MLB Rising Mud Rain) 3. Kukulkan (1.18 million dmg against Earth targets) 4. Gray[NP5] (1.02 million dmg against Undead targets) 5. Siegfried (1.00 million dmg against Dragon targets) For further comparison, the highest dmg on a buster Looper *without* hitting any anti-traits is 880k and belongs to, of course, Melusine. And for the nitpickers (like me) the highets dmg on a buster Looper without anti-traits *and* without Black Grail is 790k on Kukulkan. Once again thanks for the great video and the opportunity to dump some numbers as to why Siegfried is actually incredibly goated.
The thing you missed or simply forgot to mention about siegfied is that Das Rheingold is the big reason for the "holy Grail(s)" even existing as the gold was used to make it by the Einzberns'. A noble phantasm of the wish granter as well as being cursed for Angra Mainyu to latch on to and corrupt because of said properties, you might say if everything started because of him. also, i wish that Siegfried was a five star and also had an upgrade to disengage to be Armor of Fafnir that would be similar to Achillies own Andreias Amarantos. If i had it my way i would either have invinciblity for one turn and or have damage cut in half or have in increased defense for 5 turns with cure all debuffs and incressed debuff resistanse and some healing
The Einzberns do indeed have the Rheingold, but I don't remember anywhere stating that they melted it down to create the Holy Grail of Fuyuki. At best one can say without those funds they could have not developed the HGW system. The grail being cursed is a result of the 3rd HGW with the Einzberns summoning Angra Mainyu and him being being absorbed by the Grail tainted it.
@@jkosch it is explained by Kirie in the fate route Quote "Yes, The Einzberns Specialized in 'the golden rule of the line'. they were the best suited to make an imitation of the holy girl." I wonted what that could be referring to? and in the material in fate stay night they up front state that it's not the original grail and instead a replica that could carry the function of a wish granting device again I wonder what Who are they referring TOO, and for the second part a cursed contain wished about others and a wishing device made of cursed gold to contain magic to grant wishes hmm...
A few other things about Siegfried: Rheingold is a NP that can be summoned when you summon Siegfried and will appear somewhere at random. Rheingold as basically the same effect that in legend which mean it's a LOT of gold which also make people mad. And Fafnir can also be randomly summoned when you summon Siegfried so yeah he better be apolegetic because he will summon a lot of problem with himself
its so interesting that Siegfried has his 3d skill already unlocked when you summon him. one of unique things of fgo. also shows how him being a dragonslayer is core part of him
So now that I understand the door mat persona wasn’t part of the original tales, I now get the feeling the Writer For Apocrypha just wanted a hero who was in service of others like some other Saber. That and the ending of Apocrypha being a certain maiden reuniting with a the protagonist after a long journey on the reverse side of the world. Sounds like he tried to be like Nasu but just couldn’t cut it.
D- might be a bit harsh. The more dark aspects of the lore could be looked at as why he feels like he isn't a hero by the time we see him in Fate. Heck, him fighting Fafnir at all might have just been asked of him and not something he just did because he wanted to, but felt obligated to do. The same for his self-ending plan. It was set up to put a stop to the conflict and Hagen clearly acted like it was all a part of the ruse of actually being a betrayal and only said it wasn't to Kriemhild at the end when it was all lost anyway. I like to take Fate as more of an interesting take on the myths. Like "the myths are real, but they are not giving the full story." Same as the whole King Arthur thing as we all know at this point. It gives the creators nice leeway to add to the stories without just rehashing the myths fully. I like to think of it in the Fate world as incomplete history being filled in.
It might be a bit harsh, but he wasn't going to escape the D's thanks to how much his story has been changed - particularly how it ended. Admittedly I'm less fussy if Fate decides to not be explicit about the uglier things its characters have done - if only because knowledge of such things can make these characters extremely difficult to like. But the grades are for accuracy to the original, rather than how likeable a character is or if their Fate depiction might actually be better than the original. I gave Oberon a D+ and I think he's a great character, whereas I gave Galahad an A and I think he sucks. :o
@CrazyYurie I think you'll be fine using Mili music as long as you give credit to them(the op was referencing to Mili song called Gone Angels from pm game Library of Ruina, if you read the mc's story it very fits Kriem), but it's still your choice which music you use so no pressure
i know its a massive cope on my part but, i think that maybe his myth and the deviation of it have a purpose, for those who he granted wishes he was a migthy warrior cuz he never failed in a quest, for a hero like him, a betrayal would sound a lot better than self termination, hence why i think they killed him in the same way as his legend, he would have no reason to plan his own death, only his best friend knew of it to add more to this theory of mine, kriem's quest for revenge came from the fact that self termination would be the last thing she would consider as the cause of his death, so going down in history as a great and powerful hero slain by a betrayal would be cooler for anyone involved than ''he was so sad that he took the easy way out''. his interludes force him to face this fact, ppl remember him as a hero, but its not how he sees it
funny timing, I went to a record shop and bought a set of discs for Wagner’s Siegfried last week. It came with the booklet with both the German Lyrics and its English translation. Im not really familiar with the Original Nibelungenlied, But I did read a synopsis of Wagner’s interpretation before listening to the opera. I see some differences like in naming conventions, (Nothung for Balmung), different items (Tarnhelm and Tarnkappe), and the origin of Nothung being used by Siegmund, broken and reforged by Siegfried. I was completely thrown off when you said Alberich was the original inspiration for Oberon as I also got Mendelssohn’s Italian Music for a Midsummer Night’s Dream in the same day. This has been quite the enlightening vid!
I feel like his wishgranter tendencies aren't *completely* out of nowhere. He does bend over backward for Gunther's every suggestion to help him. I am glad that even if it's inaccurate, it's at least good. Or at least pays off in one or two really good scenes.
Kinda surprised there isn't a Berserker Siegfriend. Considering how easy it is to spin his victory against Fafnir as Siegfried raging against the dragon with all he had to live.
As we see over the appearances in FGO as well as Fate/Apocrypha their version of Fafnir (once again inspired by versions of the Norse tale where Fafnir was brother of Regin and Otr and turned into a dragon after acquiring the treasure) is like a transmittable curse. There always is Fafnir and people dealing the treasure of Nibelungen and/or the massive greed connected to it or the body of Fafnir turn into "a" Fafnir due to the Evil Dragon Phenomenon. I always assumed the Dragon costume CE was related to Siegfried being slowly turned into a Dragon (a Fafnir) which started when he bathed in the blood and technically took the treasure - We are welcome to emulate the Dragon part as far as he does (but not further). Fafnir is a name that only comes in from the Norse versions of the tale featuring Sigurd. In the Nibelungenlied itself the dragon goes unnamed (and so do the dragons, including the shapechanging one that abducts Kriemhild) in the "Lied vom Hürnen Seyfrid". It was the Wagner operas of the "Ring der Nibelungen" cycle, with it's combination of Norse and German motives, that that made it popular to use the name Fafnir in combination with Siegfried popular.
If i had a dollar for every invincible man with a single point of weakness. I would have 3 dollars. Which isnt a lot but it's weird it happened thrice.
I quite like the Fate version of Siegfried. If I were to give a reason to him having dragon aspects in his 3rd ascension I guess it could just be because sometimes servants tend to embody their legends physically as ascension increases. I find that with most servants, you have the weakened version (Normally Ascension 1), them as they were in life (Normally Ascension 2) and then an idealised version of themselves that exceeds them in life (Ascension 3). Obv this isn't always true, but I think that could apply to a lot of servants.
as a German myself, it always "saddened" me a little that Nibelungenlied (Siegfried) and Faust (Mephisto) seem to be the only German stories frequently referenced in Japanese media. This made me appreciate the fgo version more tho 💪
@@CrazyYurie Indeed. We need people like King Otto I (the first actual Holy Roman Emperor who wielded the Lance on Longinus in the battle of Lechfeld against the Hungarians) or at least one of the Fredricks that were Holy Roman Emperors (I or II would both have their appeal, but I think Friedrich I (Barabarrossa) should be an Iskandar-Face for some reason ...
18:07 Super Orion and Double Koyan? Good Strategy. I thought it would be a fight with 3 health bars again so I used Zenobia and Double Castoria. I cleared on 2 turns(my Zenobia is NP2 and I'm working on grailing her lv 100).
7:38 That gift isn’t evil. It is kind of kinky. Siegfried is a dragon slayer who slayed a dragon with his sword. So for valentine's day he gives us a dragon costume indicating that he wants to *slay a dragon* with his *sword*. Or Davinci is trolling Siegfried, either way it is not dangerous. Unless Kreimhild sees it and gets the meaning
One thing that I think was overlooked in this video is his second NP Armor of Fafnir, that we see in Apocrybha. Despite not being in FGO even as a Skill, we know that is still there as we can see in description of Siegfried. In Gameplay it was changed to Siegfried having bigger HP box that most, as a mean to execute the near invincibiliy, but... well it went like it went. Other important thing that happened with Siegfried in FGO, is his look. Well it might be a issue but we must not forget about Sieg in this equation. As we seen in Apochrybha, Sieg after obtaining Siegfried hearth, as he was using Siegfried power, was slowly turning into a Dragon - Fafnir. And I think this is where we get to have some of the AoF lore. I remember that I read somewhere that were another short story of Siegfried where it was mentioned he possed scale "armor"/skin that was protecting him expect that one spot. So in FGO they propably interpreted it as something, if given more power (ascension) would spurst a Dragon elements for Siegfried. Other important element is that in one of Chrismas events he says he is more of a reptile/dragon. This is another thing that ties him with AoF, as I saw somewhere that in Fate it was in some sense twisting even organs to be more dragon like. As is still is not as accurate as it might be, it still function as explantion to why it looks like it looks. I mean, we have Tamamo and she's have three tails in her ascension but in lore we know she need to fusion with her other part of Tamamo Nine to have more than one tail. As for the cape, I think it was mentioned somewhere that that cape he has is tarnkappe but because he is summoned as Saber not a Rider, he got the short end and lost that one NP as class containder.
I firmly believe the invisibility cloak should be skill 2. The valentine is a joke over how ridiculously lazy his stage 3 looks. Seriously his 3rd ascension looks like cosplay.
about the tarnkappe, isnt it the cloth behind him in his ascensions ? because its not really a cape and it even shows up in the apocrypha clip when his master was refusing to reveal his name
Kriemhild is one of the many proofs that "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn". In all frankness though, I never understood why they made Sigurd and Siegfried two different characters, sure their stories are sort of different, but they are ultimately the same guy just interpreted multiple times. I wonder if they'll ever add Theoderic in Fate, that would be a good character
@@CrazyYurie it’s so much damage that if you were doing a 90++ node that he is a better option against even dragons of neutral damage types over class advantage . As in he is a better choice against dragon nodes than many of the high damage servants coming out next year
Crazy Yurie i hope you do Sigurd and Brynhildr together as both of their lives end together a tragic romantic end and even in fgo i find them adorible together as well as Siegfried and Krimhild both men are just so loving to their wifes
I still think a D- is a bit too harsh. Granted, I might be a bit bias since Siegfried is one of the few German characters in fate and the only German character so far that is an actual hero. For me, F and D rang is reserved for characters, that have little to none connection to their real counterpart. Siegfried, all things considered, has a lot of connections to his real counterpart. Enough things were changed, which definitely prevents him from becoming an a or even b rank character. However, all things considered, Siegfried has a lot of connections to his real counterpart and you can definitely recognize him. (Unlike Mephistopheles, who has nothing to do with his real counterpart) The last thing I'm couriers about is how you rate things, that simply haven't been mention. The entire rape story with Gunther hasn't been mentioned, but it also never got denied. (At least to my knowledge. Maybe Traum says something about it, but I haven't finished Traum and also skipped that part of the video because of it) All in all, I think Siegfried deserves a c or c- at worse. I still liked the video though and I'm looking forward to your Kriemhild video. Keep up the good work.
I don't have an established rubric, so the grades I give tend to be an "overall impression" rather than something rigorously analyzed. When it comes to changes to a character's story, I tend to be harsher towards outright inaccuracies rather than things that are omitted or set aside. This is the big reason why Siegfried and other characters like Lancelot and Oberon got hit as hard as they did. I understand that not every detail about a character's legend can be fit in, especially for monster characters like Heracles. On the other hand, close faithfulness to the original, or even just making it clear that the creators were very much thinking of the original when they made the character? That tends to get a boost from me, as seen in the cases of Baobhan Sith and Muramasa. I tend to put much greater weight towards characterization rather than skills and design, which is why characters with good skillsets and designs can still get hit if their characterization is flawed. Generally, the closer to the original a character is? The better - but I am pretty forgiving if they miss a detail or two so long as it doesn't seriously affect the character.
18:07 well i dont have super orion, BUT i did throw summer kiara with double castoria at them ez clap, 3T them i defeated true love and selfless care for one another with the power of horny
You mention that Sigurd and Siegfried are distinct enough to be separate characters, but how? I feel like if you would set them up in one canon their stories would cancel each other out wouldn’t they?
@@CrazyYurie Nice! I’ve been doing some research on this idea but setting things up where they can coexist without things getting weird has been one thing I struggle with.
@@CrazyYurie yeah Sigurd and siegfried stories are so close you could literally make them just one guy and legends did that as theirs versions which have aspects of both stories in one
It is kinda of unfortunate that Siegfried was blended/joined with arguably the most bland Fate MC in Apocrypha. I legit can't even remember his name. I know some give Shirou Emiya that title but first it speaks volumes I can remember his name and he does undergo quite a few different arcs depending on which of the three routes you go down/watch. Whereas the MC in apocrypha is well there and does a thing twice? I kinda of wish Siegfried was the main character so we could have learned more about him but oh well at least Apocrypha had some dope ass fights and characters.
I actually like Shirou Emiya. Sure he can be a bit of a dummy at times, but he has good character development. As for Sieg in Fate/Apocrypha... well, I've hinted at my opinion on him on a few occasions. I do believe I even called him by his meme nickname, "Cardboard", in the Jeanne video. I also dissed his and Jeanne's relationship in the Mordred video.
The closest I can remember coming across is this conversation from the Las Vegas Summer event. Ritsuka: I was just wondering if you ever hang out with Sigurd. Siegfried: Ah, I see. Of course. We may both be dragon slayers, but we wield our swords very differently. I learn a lot from talking to him. I never would have thought to cast my sword about like the wind. His cape is spectacular, too. It even conceals his back! Not to mention that our legends have a lot in common. I don't think it's a matter of which of them is right or wrong. My guess is that they're both right. Just as I succeeded at slaying the evil dragon Fafnir, so too did Sigurd slay the same dragon. Of course, the Brynhild I knew was not a Valkyrie... and similarly, Lord Sigurd has never heard of my beloved Kriemhild. Fuuma Kotarou: It could be that your legends were conflated, or that they diverged at some point. Siegfried: Either way, neither I nor Lord Sigurd pay much heed to our past legends. All we care about is fighting today to secure a future for the humanity of tomorrow. For that is our greatest joy.
@@CrazyYurie lemme explain if in the norse legend there is sigurd and brynhildr and in the germanic we have siegfried and kriemhild then achillies and penthesilia should be thier counterpart in greek lol.
Siegfried in myth a great warrior, honorable and a dick who would have laughed at astolfo and given zero chance at giving sieg his heart like really the story ruins him and also Kriemhild because by god your telling me her entire story could have been ended if Gunther or hagen admitted the reason why Siegfried was killed and shed have killed herself who the hell chose this writer cause his burned half the nation down here
@@CrazyYurie you should have cause this person has no connection to siegfried even as a servant he has no skilled because those he would have had were lost in his lore change, like in myth he chased hagen down and tried to kill him that would have been a high rank battle continuation. Instead we got this guy whose very actions resulted in the fate he wanted to avoid who wrote this and his ideology how the hell do you develop a semi modern version of heroism when your in that time period its like his very existence was specifically made for the singular purpose of giving his heart to sieg like everything around him was designed for that purpose to justify it knowing that any sane version would have said hell no tough luck
