What fascinates me is how this can work backwards for anime originals. The whole media mix of having the original work adapted into all of these different mediums make sense to me since that's often how I experience it through the anime seasons, knowing there was source material and other people in the community interacting with it beyond just the one narrative but through all the forms. But then as the video continued for me I thought about shows that just don't have an original source, yet, after its success then becomes this media mix, with merch, and in some cases manga/LN adaptations happening from the anime, which is what's happening with Vivy this season. That to me along with the example of MPD is so interesting since with something like Vivy where the world is condensed into 13 episodes, can then all of a sudden breed parallel stories and expansions, and muddle that universe in its subsequent forms if it wants to. Which then leads me to think about Revue Starlight, which was also original yet spawned musicals, manga adaptations and a mobile game, turning into a franchise in its own right, but at the time, it was just the show, but then I could consume the show through the songs as well. It then became this weird mixture of, the songs having a life of its own, and the characters being, at least for me, synonymous with their particular performance songs. Which is more apparent for me as Starlight expanded into its other forms like the other schools we got in the mobile games, where the franchise then begets all of these narrative songs, and I can choose where I want to go from the anime, by listening to whatever album they drop and understand those narratives even if I don't play the game or read the manga. And in this weird way that's also very fitting for the show, and I wouldn't be such a big fan of Starlight as a whole if it wasn't for how it's done its mix, and how each part interlaces and connects, adding or complicating from what the base original anime gave. In short, this video made me think a bunch.
Well, a lot of "anime originals" are actually _planned_ as media mixes from the start--actually, most of them are. (Since the media mix does not just encapsulate narrative entries but also stuff like character merchandise and music releases, pretty much every single anime released today is part of some kind of media mix.) And this has been happening for a while, even if thinking about just narrative entries (that is, the source/adaptation dynamic). So, for example, for Evangelion, Sadamoto started writing the main manga series concurrently with the production of the show in the mid-90s, and the manga is less an "adaptation" of the show itself than its own take on the narrative. Idol series like Starlight Revue and Love Live are especially planned as media mixes from the start.
@@EccentricFanboy Yeah the idol adjacent things I would expect but I didnt know that about Eva and thats really interesting to see, I would think its reactionary but having it be concurrent like that makes sense.
Adding on to the conversation, original anime often have to be media mix projects in order for it to be green lit by a production committee. When the sales of the show itself can't gaurentee profit, tie-ins to other media is necessary for get buy-in from funders, much like the OG Astro Boy.
@@chil.6476 Or, to be even more specific, or phrase it another way, the production committee system is fundamentally tied to the media mix by its very structure itself. It's not only that the production committee won't fund something if an anime is not a media mix, it's that the nature of the production committee, with most companies representing one part of the media mix or another, is what engenders the media mix for a series itself.
From what I recall, Revue Starlight was greenlit to spawn the musicals. In other words, to echo Eccentric Fanboy, the media mix aspect was designed/intended from the start.
You sort of acknowledged this in the "intermission" section, but one of my main points of contention re:the media mix is that I don't think that narrative consumption or the importance of narrative in the media mix disappears or even necessarily declines with more character-centric media mixes. (Incidentally, this is also one of my main points of contention with Azuma Hiroki...as much as I think database consumption is a good model, I don't think it comes at the expense of narrative consumption, which is what Azuma argues.) I think Steinberg is theorizing a shift from world consumption to character-based media mixes, but I don't think the shift is quite as paradigmatic or those two modes as opposed to each other as Steinberg is proposing. For example, from the first instance, Ōtsuka develops his theory of narrative consumption from looking at children's consumption of Bikkuriman stickers--which have narrative fragments attached but are quite centered around the characters themselves. That is, Ōtsuka's world consumption theory is not opposed to character-centric forms but rather develops quite directly from those forms. And with media mixes like Haruhi (and, I would argue, even kūki-kei series like K-ON), the characters are quite important, yes, but the narrative and the "world" consumed through fragments is still essential. Now, perhaps there was some shift in industrial structure around the media mixes and in the consumption of them where character images became increasingly important, but even there, I don't think it was a decisive break or a total shift in either media mix from the industrial side, or in the actual (narrative) consumption from the audience side. So if characters became more important starting in the late 90s for anime media mixes, then one, I don't think it came at the expense of narrative or narrative consumption, and two, it is probably a reflection of trends that started with early forms of the media mix. Also, now I wonder if the uses of postmodern storytelling techniques in not only Haruhi and MPD Psycho, but also in many other landmark light novels like Boogiepop and the Monogatari series, are indicative of a broader shift towards self-reflexivity re: the media mix. (Incidentally, I have my own take on some of these postmodern LNs--namely, that they help reinforce what Patrick W. Galbraith/Shin'ichirō Harata call the "ethics of moe" in emphasizing the importance of separating reality and fiction. I suppose they could (and probably do) fulfill both functions of thinking through media mix and reinforcing otaku ethics. Incidentally, relating to this, I know from Galbraith that Ōtsuka is one of the commentators on otaku culture who is most concerned with this ethical position--insistent that whether or not Tsutomu Miyazaki was an otaku or not, he serves as a reminder and ethical imperative to keep reality and fiction apart. I would not be surprised if Ōtsuka wrote MPD Psycho while thinking of this.)
Agreed. In this shift that may or may not have happened in anime consumption, I think the right answer is definitely in the middle ground. Character-based works and media-mixes enabling their popularity aren't unilaterally squashing story-based or world-based works, but they're an efficient, pragmatic way to market a show and cause a sort-of emotional bond in a much easier fashion. I never liked how Azuma's model implied that modern anime consumption was rather brainless (maybe I should fully read the actual book before asserting this, though.) Sure, you may find people attracted to characters based on looks and stereotypical elements, yet the deeper bonds any fan can form go way deeper than that; at worst, these databases boxes getting ticked are just the front door for a more thorough involvement. To a point, I think contemporary media-mixes could just be seen just as a capitalist, pragmatic way to make publicity rather than a full-fledged production system? And what may seem like a confirmation of this model are in fact just side effects of anime's massive popularity nowadays and its overproduction, spawning numerous franchises on multiple media. I wish it was available in English, but a few weeks ago I read (to the fullest of my meager artistic and theoretic knowledge) a very good Master's thesis studying how Azuma's model applies to modern anime, and on which aspects it could be weak or mended, using two shows: Lucky Star and K-On. While the first deliberately displays a minimalist, non-story-driven self-celebration of otaku culture/stereotypes/references, the latter does absolutely not, and keeps a fully-built worldview and detailed cinematography. Yet both could reasonably be classified in the same genres and story types. Of course, shows using what you call postmodern storytelling are also proofs of this fake opposition, totally. (Where Lucky Star was "self-aware of its otakuness", Monogatari is "self-aware of its own otaku self-awareness")
@@RdNetwork57 This is a _fantastic_ reply, and I'll get to the rest later, but... > I wish it was available in English [...] a very good Master's thesis I'm pretty sure I know which thesis you're referring to (is it "Reexamining and Reevaluating Otaku Consumption" by Jeremy Lim Hon Lee?), and it is available in English though? Unless I'm totally off the mark, and there's _another_ MA thesis that argues something similar. (Somewhat reversed to you, I've read Azuma but not the thesis to which I am referring (*yet*--it's a top priority for me), so I don't know its finer points.)
@@EccentricFanboy Nope, not the one. It's in French, I just happened to stumble upon it on a French academic website. It's a 2020 master thesis in Cinematographic Studies by Simon Auger for the University of Rennes 2.
Great comments. And (as Steinberg here) I agree entirely. In my media mix book I basically say Otsuka's model still holds, and that Azuma's too quick to say narrative is over. Here, I guess I'd say that this character-centrism or Haruhi-centrism comes not at expense of narrative - it's still very much about narrative - but character as the organizing principle of narrative. Or something like that. Interestingly the anecdote about the Haruhi (or other character) against white background comes from the editor of the novel at Kadokawa. So yeah, just to say I'm more in agreement with you here and not at the point of giving up narrative or worlds for that matter. The relative importance of one vs the other does change over time and in different series, though. Interesting comment about Otsuka's thinking about the Miyazaki incident in MPD Psycho. I always thought the genius of that series was blurring the boundaries between real and fiction, though, so I don't know I agree on that front. But you're right about Otsuka's position about fiction vs reality.
This was great Joe, brings a whole new light to the kingdom hearts franchise. MD Psycho sounds pretty interesting too. The whole fake biography part reminded me how in Watchmen they created these supplementary articles or even media that exists within the world that can be read alongside
I discovered this channel for myself through the Japan Sinks documentary, and god dam! I am on a bingeing streak, every video is such a banger with such high quality professional editing. I would never think about these topics, plus with informative research and writing, I couldn't have been more intrigued!
well done video!! as a fan of idol/idol-adjacent franchises (for both male and female audiences), i only thought that media mix (where my initial understanding was "its a media mix bc they have an anime, game, stageplay, and songs) only applied to them, but turns out it's been around for quite a long time and defined differently! it made me rly think about the kind of content i consume, and after this video i realized that the whole spotlight on the characters angle was really what theyre pushing for in idol/adjacent franchises, which fits bc they have sell the character like how they would for a real idol. the video asked a question about the media mix for female audiences, and i think the popularity of idol/adjacent franchises that have been popping up recently such as ensemble stars, a3!, idolish7, etc. might provide some good insight for that 🤔🤔🤔 sorry for the lengthy comment!! i think the comm major graduate in me took over HAHA great video!
I similarly only thought of media mix as a term for idol stuff, or things like the Kagerou project etc. As Steinberg brings up around 5:00, there's the instances when big publishers market their product specifically as a media mix, and that's probably how most people are familiar with the term. I've had conversations in the past about series that don't get called media mixes. The conversation would go something like: Since they have manga that expand the story shouldn't they be considered media mixes? I now understand more about what's going on there with this split between the corporate meaning and the more general, practical meaning of the phrase.
This takes "the medium is the message" to the extreme. Really interesting stuff, I can't pin any single concept down because everything interconnects by necessity. Thanks for introducing MPD Psycho, that's another rabbit hole I need to jump into.
The MPD Psycho bit was really interesting. I had never actually thought of how far media mix could go, since I've mostly heard the term thrown around for stuff like isekai adaptations, or like games based off light novels/manga (Call it the fate of not being fluent in JP, so many media mix elements of certain franchises just never get brought over to other countries) But to use the idea of media mix as a worldbuilding tool in and of itself is super interesting. That was an A+ example you brought up honestly, up till then I had a general idea of what the video was building up to, but the MPD psycho section just really framed it all perfectly. Great video!
Huh... When P4G: the animation was broadcasting, I was so hung up on how it was a bad adaptation, because I expected it to be decent a substitute to the game, that I completely dismissed its actual value, that of being a companion media to the original game, if not downright a complementary piece... Despite noticing that the first episode felt like a new game + by how OP Yuu was.
Well, you would expect Persona 4 The Animation to be a decent substitute for the game. Those watching Persona 4 GOLDEN the animation were expected to have either watched or played Persona 4 before.
editing is so impressive as always. Eiji Otsuka thinks that otaku and shinjinrui are two different forms the same middle-class culture prepared by a few progressive enterprise managers. In that context, we can easily understand the reason why he emphasized the importance of Kadokawa. He thinks that the TRPG-like "world consumption" style was influenced by Tsuguhiko Kadokawa's personal obsession. Haruki Kadokawa's films influenced otaku culture too, but Tsuguhiko's style was different from Haruki's "novel first" hierarchy. ("Narrative consumption" gains historical importance in that kind of sense.) When I consider the second shift from Tsuguhiko's world consumption to the character-based media mix, I cannot but think about NGE. NGE's alternative world gimmick in the final episode and the conclusion of EoE inspired fan-fiction writers in those days, e.g. Tatsuhiko Takimoto. However, that might be too close to the consumers' viewpoint.
That's so interesting how Kadokawa starts his media mix as a DnD campaign! It reminds me of how Disco Elysium started as a homebrew game, and the Zaum group also created albums and a novel based around that world. However, my sense is the choices to create those particular media were more about an artist following their muse than creating an intentional meta mix. Even so, the existence of many different kinds of media really contributes to the feel and vibe of Disco Elysium, especially bc the other media are so hard to find! It has me wondering about what impact INTENTION has on creating a cohesive body of different kinds of works. What kind of emergent truths are revealed when there is no/little conscious intention there? This gave me loads to think about, thanks for making it!
I appreciate the kind words Bruce! Unfortunately I think I have to change the thumbnail cause I realise a lot of my content isn't very RU-vid video-vibe, and thats' how I'm going to capture a better audience. I think this thumbnail, as someone explained it to me, makes sense on, like, an album cover, so it gives a sort of "music" youtube video vibe.
Consuming media mix properties is not just reading or watching stories in different formats, but more like getting a set of experiences through the various media forms, I think? Like if I think about how I've been into Show By Rock contents in the past year after watching its anime first (it's a Sanrio IP btw), although I don't actually play its game, outside of watching the anime I've also been enjoying the songs, including those not featured in the anime, or the stuff like performances and music videos put up on its RU-vid channel, among others. Rather than a fan of the anime, accessing all these contents makes me feel more like I'm a fan of the bands. Like, I'm eager to hear the bands I like getting new songs, or to see more performances of the songs in various forms. It kind of works like that, I guess. Also, I'm going to go on a tangent here, but I've been thinking about how understanding different media mix models can also be useful for discussing magical girl works. I often see discussions about magical girl often revolves around being dark or not, or being "deconstruction" or not, but less attention is given to the media mix models they're made with. I think the latter could have given some interesting perspectives for identifying different lineages in the "magical girl" umbrella. Like, if we see stuff like Pretty Cure, Minky Momo, or Creamy Mami, these shows shares something in common being sponsored by toy companies that put out toys for their audiences to act out the characters' transformations or powers. The shows need to factor in depictions of the workings of the toys, and important plot points and the release of new toy items need to be synced together (there's a paper from Hartzheim detailing the media mix in Pretty Cure). But we'd see less of such form of synergy with properties like, say, Lyrical Nanoha or Madoka Magica. And from that, I think we can think about how these shows may present different kinds of media experience from "acting out the characters' transformations and powers" that I have mentioned before.
Yeah, I've been thinking of writing it down for a while, though so far I've mainly been sharing the details with some friends while trying to hammer out the details. Coincidentally, there have been a couple of recent articles about magical girl on some major anime sites that I think can be used as examples of how the narrative of the genre's history often doesn't cover enough the varying media mix models. I just hope I can find some more resources about some titles from the 90s, which was an interesting period because many magical girl anime of that time began as manga.
This is a great point and something I think a lot about in how to multiply the models and approaches to the media mix (which we talk about towards the end). Yeah the Hartzheim article is great and definitely a good direction. You should definitely write an article!
I don't know what this does, if anything, to the commentary, but there is a small point about when the term media mix entered japanese vernacular. There is a film called Giants and Toys made in 1958 about competing advertising companies, and they reference that term to describe some of their ad methods. This probably doesn't mean much, but it appears to be a part of the culture a bit earlier than the 60s
Funny enough I think Marc mentions that in Media Theory in Japan, ye. I think we wanted to keep it firmly focused on anime cause it made the overall narrative of the video easier to digest.
Yes, Giants and Toys is incredible! I don’t recall them using the media mix term but the idea of tie ins precedes anime in the 60s so you’re right that some nuancing is needed. I talk more about this in my book. Thanks for pointing out though!
When the spoilers warning showed Haruji I legitimately felt sad. Usually I don't like to spoil myself, but boy do I love these videos. With much reluctance, I continued. Now that I've finished the video, I can say it was worth it. Can't wait for part 2!
You know, I'm not entirely sure how youtube decides to recommend or nor recommend something. I've had people mention this to me before on other videos, so I think the only thing I can do is constantly hustle.
It's a really really interesting video ✨ I knew this channel recently and my vision of works or media in general has completely changed, keep it up! Also I'm brazilian and my english is poor yet, but subs are helping me a lot, thanks for it too
A couple of things, but first a relevent time stamp: 16:27 Interest stuff about MPD Psycho read the manga but never followed thru so it interesting to know that. Also curious if there is a video about 'A Theory of Narrative Consumption' if not... I guess I'll have to hunt it down to give it a read.
Here visiting from STEVEM's latest premier video on Miyazaki's Nausicaa that you contributed in. You must be this famous Joe that they were talking about?
The thing about Shoujo Media Mixes is that the Manga is often written by a woman but then the Anime is made by men and often she doesn't like how the male perspective warps the adaptation. We see this with Sailor Moon and Kare Kano.
Haruhi was one of probably one of my first Anime to watch even even before j I reach the 10 watched series. I remember I saw the cover of and i love the first episode, when I reach the endless 8 i was so hooked to the series, And I never saw that anyone done anything like that that I loved. To this day is provably kne of my favorite series probably influenced because one of the first series I watched. Tought I definitely understand why people hate endless 8, and probably start to dislike the series because of that.
Franchise is a general, overarching term for a lot of things. It usually refers to something a clear middle point that fans out into a broader network. The Star Wars franchise has the films at its heart, for instance, but then it also has a whole whack of stuff that exists related to it - see Legends versus canon stuff. Media mixes have multiple entry points and can come off as more decentralized - Pokemon games versus shows, for example.
