How Are Certain Chapters Able To Create Primaris Marines? - 40K Theories 

My day was shit today. Then 40K theories happened....And the Emperor's light shone through.

Blood Raven Primaris: "Wasn't my armour blue before I went into stasis?"

I seem to recall in an earlier video regarding Cawl, Guilliman, and the primaris marines, how the two were debating about using stock from the traitors and the lost. Cawl, in my opinion, correctly pointed out that,"The gene-seed did not fail, the science did not fail, it was the primarchs that failed.", and that not using it would be unwise. I would be willing to bet that Cawl disregarded Guilliman's order and used the forbidden stock. From risk comes progress.

There is one way to be absolutely certain of the Sons of the Phoenix's heretage. Have them all take off their helmets and shake out their hair when there is a breeze blowing. If they have flowing, beautiful silvery white locks, that shimmer in the breeze, then its pretty certain they didn't inherit such fabulous hair from Dorn.

For Terra's sake, if they were going to be so blatant with, "The Sons of the Phoenix" they might as well have made a chapter called, "The Hounds of the Angel," and made them blue and white.

I'm wondering if Guilliman's directive toward the lesser Cawl was a bit of political maneuvering to cover himself should Primaris of traitor stock go rogue. He knew full well that Cawl will do whatever Cawl pleases, and this directive would cover him from any fallout

Plot twist: Cawl actually uses the gene seed of Alpharius for all of the Primaris Marines because in actuality he is Alpharius.

Primaris created from traitor stock...aka how GW can create Chaos Primaris if they think they can sell more plastic bits.

Guilliman isn't a fool or dogmatic. He hasn't been corrupted by 10, 000 years of ignorance and blind superstition. He's a master of strategy ffs. He knows full well that the gene seed is not inherently corrupt and that the Adeptus Astartes are weaker by being divided. The issue is that the Imperium he now rules bears no resemblance to the one he and his brothers created. It is no longer his Father's Enlightened Empire. He knows that as well. My opinion is that Guilliman's decision is a political not a practical one. Not everyone will be happy to see him return and certainly questions will be asked about the collusion with Xenos etc. Further alienating/provoking the remaining loyalist chapters and/or the Inquisition would be stupid.

Man..Primaris Blood Raven Psykers must be the strongest Loyalist Psykers if they are even closer to Magnus

Question: This guy has access to super pure strains of gene seed from all 20 primarchs, right? And the primarchs themselves are technically descended from the emperor, right? Could Mr. Mecha Caterpillar splice all the gene seed together and make emperor grade gene seed? Is that a thing, or would that just be a Custodes?

There's a part in the Dark Imperium novel in which a Primaris Lieutenant, Felix? Describes how he loves to paint. A son of Guilliman... who loves to "paint" No one else find that just a little suspicious considering the context of this video.

I say “the right tool for the job.” Use all genestock and monitor the variables.

Using the geneseed of a traitor Primarch to bolster the ranks of a loyal space marine chapter would likely be OK. If they haven't turned to chaos in ten thousand years then it is unlikely they would do so because of their geneseen now. However, creating new chapters using traitor geneseed... Do you want heresy? Because that's how you get heresy.

There is 100% chance that ol belasarius completely ignored guiliman and did what he pleased. Which also leads to 100% chance of more traitors, this time more powerful than the last.

Use the full strength of the emperor's designs... traitors were only because their primarchs raised wrong or placed into horrible circumstances

Ive been sick all day and school sucked but these videos make me feel better. Thank you.

*PRIMARIS ALPHARIUS INTENSIFIES*

Yet another magnificent video by 40k Theories, now I'm tempted to try and make an Emps' Children/Iron Warriors successor-

Straight to the point, good work matey

You know he has whole chapters of Marines made of traitor stock sitting in stasis.

Sounds like a set up for Horus Heresy 2 Electric Boogaloo XD

I would say its possible Belisarius could simply 'creatively interpret' his orders in regards to reinforcement of the chapters. If he was told to reinforce the existing chapters and there is evidence (or a strong enough hint) of a chapter being descended from a traitor gene line then he would just be following orders by creating marines from that traitor gene-line. It would hardly be the first time the Mechanicus got creative in their application of the rules.

No doubt in my mind Cawl used all 20 of the primachs gene seed. I was so confident he did I created my own Primaris Chapter "The Judges of Purgery" based off off The 11th lost legion. That aside. Wonderful video, one that I have been wanting your opinion on. Keep up the great work! I look forward to any and all of your content my good man!!

Cawl's CLEARLY using all threads of the Primarch's genestock, Cawl has no chill whatsoever

get home to find a new video ITS THE WILL OF THE EMPEROR

Maybe we should get Maurie on the case. He's been dealing with this shit for almost 40,000 years.

We all know Fabius Bile (Fabulous Bill) has a great fascination with the Primaris, so what are the chances of some of that precious Traitor gene seed being apprehended and used to create Chaos Primaris Marines?

Okay time for the Warsmith to chime in, we have already been informed through Dark Imperium that Cawl had access to every gene-seed bio-type available, and the Primaris Astartes add three additions to the standard template of a Space Marine. This means that Cawl and Guilliman not only provided additional warriors to reinforce chapters, they also provided them a way to create new Primaris. The Theoretical and Practical work out thus. Theoretical: the Chapter is loyal and has suffered substantial losses, provide Primaris Astartes in order to secure an area of conflict. Practical: allow said chapter to eventually build up their forces more effectively. You have to remember Philosoraptor, Guilliman launched the Indomitus crusade specifically because he saw the Imperium on its last legs. He did not have the luxury of screening which bloodlines produced what at the time. Dark Imperium shows the interaction with the Cawl Inferior as simply confirmation that Belisarius has already created traitor stock Astartres as the words he uses are " all show no sign of degradation or incidence of unwelcome tendencies" we can thus make the assumption that he has released said Astartes into the void already. Now you mentioned the Sons of the Phoenix, which are clearly the offspring of Fulgrim, even the description all but screams 3rd Legion. I believe Cawl is continuing to test his hypothesis, simply because at the moment Guilliman cannot afford to have him killed Warsmith Dmitry "Phobos Tir" Freyger signing off

First off, I love the voice work done for the quotes. It really brings them to life. With regard to the idea of using gene stock of traitorous and lost primarchs. I'm in agreement with using that stock. The Blood Angels Primaris were improved to alleviate the flaws of the Red Thirst and Black Rage. Could not similar solutions prevent the flaws that predisposed the traitor marines from turning to Chaos?

Nice theory, really it gives some spin to 40k lore :) It gives me some ideas for building me some Legion fluff :D

not sure how to feel about Guiliman decision not to use the traitor geneseed. on the one hand Cawl is correct that it is folly to only use half of their available weapons. but at the same time most of the Traitor primarchs still live and it is known that the Primarchs hold a special sway over their gene-sons, so it's possible Primaris thousand sons or Primaris Death guard might be more easily swayed over to the ruinous powers, no matter how incorruptible Primaris marines seem to be.

I always look forward to these videos and I always leave a little bit more enlightened afterwards

I can imagine the custody battle between the Loyalist Primarchs and Traitor Primarchs

I firmly believed it was human frailty and not genetics that caused the traitors to rebel. If that was the case there would probably be no loyalist elements in these Legions.

Question: do grey knights primarus?

I’m already ahead of the “what if” scenarios, I’ve created 2 Primaris chapters using genetic stock from Sanguineus + Angron , and another made with Conrad Curze+Corax, I’ve been hard at work converting the minis , and writing the lore behind their inception, patiently waiting for the proper Chaos Primaris Codex to be made.

I found something interesting. In regards to primaris and Carcharodons Astra there was some post by author of Carcharodons novels Robbie MacNiven in which he says that Sharks will get means to gene forge primaris BUT they will not get them from Cawl rather in some other means it was here on dakkadakka: www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/737413.page

Was browsing the channel and watching other videos when I got the notification. Woot.

Most Primarchs were corrupted in some way in their time in the warp after they were scattered by Chaos as infants, including loyalist chapters. So if Cawl took samples 10,000 years ago then they'll be as close to the original Primarchs as you can get within reason. Guilliman likely only prohibited certain chapters because of their involvement in the heresy rather than any inherent flaw in the genetic code.

Could you imagine a order 66 type of event in Warhammer to where all Primaris Marines turn traitor and try and kill there weaker Astartes brothers

It is possible that in imparting to the chapters the ability to replace fallen primaris marines, Cawl side steps his guidance and simply provides everything necessary to make a primeras marine out of existing gene seed that the chapters already have. You could simply claim but he was not the one making primaris marines out of heretic stock, but the chapters did that. In which case Guilliman would have to accept the moral responsibility of already permitting traitor stock within space marines under his great athority. Cawl would neither be disobeying his commands, nor doing something which his master isn't already doing. As a side note, it was Cawl that thought there Domina was an abomination of the perfect form of the Omnissiah. I read these Domina's accusations as largely rhetorical tests to make sure that Cawl was willing to play fast and loose with regulations. She was all too willing to join the traitors and have her research opened up to broader horizons. That makes it less likely she took the prohibitions seriously.

Love how you touched on this hot topic.

I think Bely said this "well he is on stasis, he can't know what i m doing...and yet the bastard still owe me money for this project...i will add a control chip and an order 66 just in case" >.>

This question is related to one I wanted to wanted to know about as soon as Guilliman returns: what does he think about existing chapters descended from traitor primarchs? He has access to all the records now and he's not the kind of guy to ignore information that's available to him, so he knows alright. BL need to get their authors to address this and the question of reinforcing these chapters because this crap about "only the inquisition knows" doesn't fly anymore in the new imperium. Out of interest, are there any chapters supposedly descended from Word Bearer geneseed, because I'd like to see what orders Guilliman gives them, other than "KILL YOURSELVES, RIGHT NOW!"

Great Video! Keep Going :)

40k theories asking the hard questions over here

I think that the Primarchs that fell to chaos didn't do so because of who they were. Angron had his brain fucked with. Magnus was involved in a fight that wasn't suppose to happen. Fulgrim had a sword talking to him. Horus needed to calm his tits. Alpharius is still loyal. So off the top of my head 5 legions were more dragged into it rather than always being corrupt. The primaris from the stock would more than likely just be like the marines that remained loyal now with even less ability to turn.

From the Codex Adeptus Mechanicus: Belisarius Cawl: Archmagos Dominus, Prime Conduit of the Omnissiah. Could it be that Emps him self is loading commands onto Cawl's hard drive, when ever he does maintenance on the golden thrown? The title PRIME CONDUIT OF THE OMISSIAH, certainly supports this theory.

I suddenly have a conspiracy: It is Crawl that founded those chapters that had an unknown genetic heritage. He wanted to run test on those geneseed and he made the perfect excuse for it.

Through glorious plot holes! Nobody can best my space marines. (maniacal cries of inferiority)

Personally i think Guilliman should expose himself to another chrono bomb and take his primaris with him while he's at it.

Happy to see more Astartes theories.

Interesting to note that Cawl, even if he wanted to, probably couldn't make use of all of the geneseed available to him. Magnus's for example, since the rubric is still in effect. The lost primarcs will likely be useless as well, since no chapter (that we know of) is their progeny. Angron is likely on that list as well, since it is unlikely that any World Eaters survived the heresy (the only ones without the Butcher's nails were the librarius and those were purged during Angron's apotheosis).

Why even keep the gene-stock of the traitor and lost Legions if you aren't even going to use them? If you believed them to be flawed then destroy them? The Emperor didn't order their destruction so wouldn't that mean he would be okay with it's use?

You have Primaris Chaplain Diomedes. (They probably stole the tech).

About Grey knights heritage, some recent lore is telling us that they are created from the Knights-Errant. Which was created by recruiting exceptional individual Space Marines. warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Knights-Errant

I wonder if Cawl would use chimeric Geneseed as well, such as the Carcharodons Astra being rumored to be part Raven Guard and Part Night Lord. Or just used a pure Raven Guard or Night Lord gene strand.

I can't wait to hear a good explanation for Primaris Black Dragons.

I think the most Cawl could get away with was making foundings from traitor descended primaries he made prior to Guilliman waking up, and reinforcing/ resupplying them and existing loyalist chapters from traitor stock with primaris marines and geneseed of their primarch. That gives him some wiggle room. "Well, I already made these while you were asleep, I'll just put them in their own chapters and keep a close eye on them" or "Well, these chapters are of traitor stock but have served loyally for 10,000 years so it's ok to resupply them for now". What I am curious about is if Mk 1 astartes geneseed can be used to create primaris marines or if they are simply incompatible. This is brought up "of honor and iron" by an apothecary who worries as to whether the legacy of his brothers will go on.

limiting Belisarius will end up in his corruption, mark my words

All of this talk about using the closest Gene-seed match, for creating Primaris marines, I wonder something else. What about a hybrid of two closely related Gene-seeds to create something that is stronger than the creation of the original Gene-seed, but which is not as strong as the Primaris marines. Imagine some fo the things these marines could gain both in the quality an perks that some of the marine chapters have, such as the bone blades of one chapter mixed with some of the other perks, but than also you might have a higher possibility to get both corruptions/flaws as well from the two gene-seeds. I could see that their might be a spy of the warp and Dark machanicum working on the project, as honestly this project has been going on for how long. The traitor/spy might do their own work on the traitor Primarch seed stock using the fact of their higher up as a smoke screen to shield them, and release these Primarus marines created from this traitor gene-seed stock out to these loyalist chapters from traitor origins yo test it an even discredit their loyalist higher up as a plot to weaken the empire in a way (these might even have a built in flaw making them turn at a time). An this would cause them to need to both reverse engineer the process to hopefully fix the issue, and then with the work done potentially see it worth the risk to keep creating them as now the chaos marines have Primarus marines too.

@ 8:22 ...... I think Cawl Inferior once told me to construct additional pylons ....

The Blood Ravens stole the tech

Would the traitor gene seed be corrupted by the taint of chaos if it was harvested before the Horus heresy ? Or would it be as pure as any other kind of gene seed?

0:26 - (monotone) All hail Big Papa Ultrasmurf. | 2:34 - Oh yeah, their Primarch might be "Spiky Tits" himself...along with chapters like the Silver Skulls (possibly Loyalist Iron Warriors) Sons of Antaeus (possibly Loyalist Death Guard) and also the Carcaradons (possibly Loyalist Night Lords) | So far, the Primaris Blood Angels have no Black Rage and a more controllable Red Thirst. As for the Primaris Space Wolves, the effects are unknown. | 10:35 - The sons of the Pretty Boy Primarch!

Cawl is actually Alpharius and the primaris marines are alpha legion plants who are going to finish the job

Thanks for the info. I didnt know that the blood raven is possibly descended to the thousand sons.

Makes me wonder now if certain units are made from certain primarchs then relabeled as "Insert chapter here"...Thousand Sons Psyker working for the Sons of Russ. That should go over well.

The fact that Cawl hasn't been killed for Heresy is beyond me.

Belasarius Cawl is robot Leonardo da Vinci. Way ahead of his time, makes invention an artform, indulges in insane passion projects that nobody wants or asks for...

Just wait until Primaris outbumber regular astartes. It's going to be thunder warrior culling all over again.

Hey, I've always had this question about 40k who named the primarchs? Did the emperor if so he used many different naming conventions or was it their "adoptive" parents.

The way I see it, they should have the raitor seeds in use, mainly for internal affairs. If a chapter that originated from a traitor legion were to learn its own origin, even from within, if the Primaris do not share in gene seeds then that would likely end in the chapters destruction from within.

One important question needs to be considered to find the answer to this question. WHICH order was Cawl given *first* by Guilliman? To make the Primaris Marines, or to only use loyalist genestock? If the order to make the Primaris came first, then simply 'order of mathematic operations' dictates to use all 20 of the genesources comes first ;)

Could be the Loyalist Gene-seed refers to the creation of new Primaris chapters. I do think we need a story of Guilliaman and Cawl running into renowned chapter with unknown primarch

I think Cawl could very easily have obtained traitor stock: He'd just have needed to ask nicely. For him to be denied at that point would require the Imperium actually communicating anything.

Can't Wait For The 32 Founding. The Corrupted Founding. Bloodied or Enlightened sounds good also

was waiting for this one

I love loyal chapters from traitor stock they're just really interesting

Here's a thought, maybe, as part of his work on the Primaris marines, Cawl was involved in every single founding and kept records of which chapters were founded from which geneseed. And there's no proof that any of the new chapters from the second onwards came from traitor primarch stock.

So my Night Lords Redeemed could have Primaris Marines secretly from their own gene stock, but the official papers would say Raven Guard

This does bring up questions to me about the Carcharodons (or the sharky boyz): Does the Primaris gene seed cure their gene flaws? What Primarch would be used, in terms of my own opinion the Raven Guard isn't compatible with their composition and fighting style and the only other Primarchs that come to mind as compatible are Traitors. How would the snowflake marines be treated by the Carcharodon upon meeting their cousin brothers? Finally, one last theory question, are the Primaris marines able to be made just as easily as regular marines, and if so how long until the original marines are phased out by the Primaris and they become the dominant force of space marines? Is this Guilliman's end game? if not what is?

cant tell if blood ravens stole primaris marines or the means for their production

Cawl to Guilliman - "My lord, as you are fond of speaking, theoretical; the marines followed their primarchs who turned traitor. Practical; the silver skulls are still loyal, aren't they?"

I think its a way for games workshop to make primaris chaos marines. If cawl disobeyed and used traitor gene-stock, then that would give the demon primarchs influence over there primaris gene-sons thus resulting in Robute's fears coming to fluition

Cawl is probably right about using all the gene stack as it was the emperor's plan to have to be able to assets with certain task

To the people saying the traitor stock would be evil, I point you to the loyalists from the traitor legion during the Heresy, elements of almost all the traitor legions stayed loyal (only ones I’m not sure about are Night Lords and Alpha Legion). Also look at all the chapters from loyal stock that have become chaos war-bands there’s a lot! It’s comes down to actions and beliefs of the marines though some gene stock is more open to corruption but the marines can still resist and overcome these (examples Lord death Guard overcoming nurgles gift and thousand sons overcoming the flesh change) so yes you can use the gene seed they might fall to chaos but so might the loyalists gene stock fall to chaos as such is the way of Chaos. You resist it or you succumb.

More Primaris theories please.

With regards to traitor legion chapters and chapters of unknown founding, I have a feeling that ultra seeding was used.

Guilliman knows what Cawl is doing...or did. He probably stopped caring at this point.

He used all the geneseed. Also, I think he knows what chapters use what geneseed. I would suspect that as part of the project (to him), he would track any new chapter and make sure to document what geneseed is use, so he can make sure that chapter has primars marines when the time came.

What about the Grey Knights, The Red Hunters, The Exorcists and all the other legions with unknown or extraordinary geneseed origins.

Doesnt it seem more likely that Cawl would try to balance the traitor gene seed with unquestionably ( or near to it) loyalist gene seed? In an effort to offset whatever causes the turn to Chaos?

Idk if can do this but can consider adding my fan made chapter for the next week homebrew chapter Chapter name: the Reapers Chapter quotes: By the swing of our scythe on the battlefield of harvest we gather victory over the enemy’s of mankind Death cone for you! We were many, loyal and fractured , we are the betrayed we are the emperors Grim Reapers and his right hand of death Chapter symbol: a lone red skull Power armor color scheme/ description A hybrid of the mark 6, mark 7, and mark 8. Components while most of the armor is jet black the shoulder cauldron is bone white with the dark green, bone white face plate with blood red eyes both the hand plate and elbow joints of the right arm are in a blood red, red cape and a jet black robes. Chapter masters face plate are replaced with a facial piece of a skull dipped in gold and instead of being called chapter master the space marine of the chapter is referred to as Lord Death Chapter homeworld: A death world designated Souvantus within the northern soulless segmentum Chapter foundation: unknown founding either to lost record or expunged from imperial records but sighted since m36 Progenitor primarch/ parent chapter: unknown no record of the origin of the chapter Recruitment worlds:Souvantus natives ,other feral worlds and underhives Lore: The Reapers chapter is a loyalist chapter of the adeptes astarties that loosely follows the codex astarties and from an unknown founding. From reports from the battles across the galaxy the chapter attended the excels in close quarters combat with the use of a variety of close range weapons ranging from bolsters and power sythes made exclusive for the chapter and mainly attack at the crack of dawn and dusk while screaming their battle cries to instill panic and fear with large numbers of devastators , tactical and dreadnought marines to overwhelm their foes and shaken off wound that would kill a normal astarties . Their has been attempts of curious inquisitors and tech priest of other chapters attempted to break into the gene vault to acquire a sample of the gene stock but all attempts lead to failure leading the intruder to a gruesome end and having their corps hanged on the walls as a reminder of the chapters willingness to keep their chapter origins a secret all but the Lord Death and chapter chief librarian can have full access to their gene stock located deep within the chapter ministry called the Grim. Tacticians through out the imperium noticed that their tactics are similar to the dusk raiders of the death guard legion during the Great crusade and long with the certain color scheme of their armor may be a clue that the founders of the chapter were death guard loyalists and their genestock came from the gene seed of the traitor primarch mortarion but can’t be proven without the acquirement of a sample of the reapers gene stock and only the chapter master and the chief librarian know the full details of the chapters origin and secret. And a cult dose exist within the chapter that they view the emperor as the ultimate warrior and harbinger of death to the enemy’s man and view themselves has his right hand of death as to the reason for the coloring of the right fist of the chapters armor.

Cawl will have to address the whole "Sixth Legion geneseed only works on Fenrisians well" problem.

Ofcourse he used ‘Traitor’ stock! I would have too..long live the recuperated lost sons

I swear, the Primaris reinforcements of unknown foundings is a total hand-wave explanation. They can't explain it lore wise, but the favored Chapters have to get new models too, so that's that.

2:49 is the meta reason for that that the Magpies are about as famous as the ultramarines thanks to the Dow ?

Chaos be like "join our side we will let you do all the cwazy experiment you want!"