How Bad are Melee's Low Tiers? 

Loved the video, BUUUUT as a Mewtwo player I will say there's a bit of misinformation here. Mainly Mewtwo having a up throw chain grab. He does have incredible combo strings off up throw such as DJC up air regrab, or the beautiful multi Fiar. He also has a pretty good tech chase at low % against just abour everyone with down throw, almost a Sheik level tech chase against Falcon and Falco. Also, Mewtwo doesn't get combed AS badly as people put it due to his air dodge making him practically invisible on the first frame. As for the tail hurtbox due to his amazing wavedash length, and getaway options, the only time you get hit in the tail is a bad tilt on the opponent typically this is only done by your opponent CCing your down tilts. Mewtwo is super misplaced atm, but he's coming up.

It's kinda funny that 3 games later, Roy got a redemption arc and now is considered leagues better than Marth in Ultimate.

Ganon and bowser really just.. swapped places in ultimate

One of my favorite Melee jokes is that Zelda, despite being low-tier, has the single greatest move in the game: down+B.

pretty ironic that PK Fire was so laggy in Melee when it's supposed to be spammed to rack up damage as well do combos out of PK Fire as Ness's Adventure trophy description

I think it's funny that Kirby is so low tier considering he's one of the strongest fictional characters.

Its still crazy to me that Amsa took Yoshi, made him a top tier, and is #2 IN THE WORLD with Him!

I feel like Ness is the worst in the game or bottom 2, just a gut feeling. Bowser, Kirby, and Zelda have some interesting stuff, but Ness's up and down smashes barely function as attacks, he has no range, and he has the worst set of specials ever. He straight up has nothing besides an okay set of aerials

My most underrated character (and my main since N64) has always been Link. I'm sure once you get to level of wavedashing and etc. he is probably worthless... but I love his moveset so much. I love in casual games setting up traps by doing his down+a aerial - will let Link spin in pretend "still stuck in hitstun" and just jam down *hard* and hit A. I caught so many people off guard with that over years, it's just so much fun. At least Young Link sees (or at least at some point saw, idk) some play as a counterpick (I think to Jigglypuff?). Worst part of being a long-time Link main... I can't ever grab anyone as other characters because of his hookshot grab and how I'm used to never being that close to other characters.

It's unbelievable how underrated this channel is...

I actually think that Kirby is better then Bowser in my opinion. Really the reason I think this are fairly simple where as bowser has to scrap which can be very stage dependent, Kirby doesn't have that problem or at least to the extent that Bowser does due to him mostly playing passively. His back air (literally his best arial) benefits in the fact that it can pseudo wall of pain people if the are new or don't space out there normals correctly and because of his multiple jumps he gets the option to mix-up his approach options in his game plan (double jump bair, use funky tilt into bair, weak smash attack into bair, ect). For his smash attacks while not as damaging and not having as much risk reward as with Bowser they are safer to throw out and are simple to combo into which let's him convert better and get damage fast although this doesn't really help him as he doesn't really have anyway to kill options until there at high %. Ultimately like you said it a matter of opinion it like fighting over the last piece of garbage in a trash bin lol its still going to be shit either way.

If there's anything Slippi era has proved with Low-Tiers, its that its better to have a decent way to take stocks than it is to have a crappy-but-not-as-crappy-as-other-low-tiers neutral. Ness, Roy, and Game and Watch have way better neutrals than Zelda, but Zelda isn't bodied so hard by other characters and has a much easier time killing and taking stocks. The same goes for Mewtwo, who is incredibly gimmicky but those gimmicks are way better than Roy's lame ass sword or Ness' wonky ass tech. I think those two low-tiers I mentioned are almost guaranteed to go up because getting tournament wins with them seems more feasible because they dont require an arm and a leg to take stock nor really oddly specific tech to win matches. Roy will always feel better to play than Mario, Zelda, Mewtwo, Pichu. That's a given. Until he can't kill at 230% without a read. Then he feels like he's one of the worst characters in the game because (SPOILERS) he actually is.

It's been a long time since I've said this to somebody but you deserve a lot more subscribers. This editing is really, really nice and the content is engaging.

If Game and Watch had a proper shield and L Cancelled aerials, where would he fit on a tier list? Sorry if this question was already answered, but i was thinking about this today and I'm intrigued.

Out of the below GW characters, I think the 3 most capable of rising tiers are mewtwo, roy and zelda. Solo zelda is obviously too bad to go up even a single spot, but utilizing her as a mid match counterpick for matchups that could possibly work could give her some more usage besides a last breath recovery option and the occasional funny kick kill. Mewtwo is honestly pretty unexplored and unpopular, I think he could easily go above GW if he had a larger playerbase. And roy is marth but worse, not only does that already give him some hope but zain has also demonstrated roy's potential before.

You got good energy bro. Thanks for the video!

Am a fan of the full body green screen, good video

Great analysis! These characters finally get the respect they deserve in Ultimate now!

I think you're sleeping on some of Ness' coolest stuff. Double-jump cancel is a great movement tool, and while it may not have the armor that Yoshi's does, it lets him get in on characters with his aerials in unexpected timings/places. All of Ness's aerials but down-air are pretty good despite being stubby (except for Fair which is nice and disjointed) and he has creative edgeguards with Yo-Yo smashes or the tail of PK thunder. Not to mention Yo-Yo glitch and jacket tricks, which a good player can integrate and sneak out some wins against competent high-tiers. Admittedly not good enough to be out there winning majors, but I could see a good Ness player making folks reconsider his current place in the tier list

It's been over two decades; I don't think anyone's moving tiers.

So where did you get your info on mewtwo's upthrow chaingrabs?

I’ve always been a low tier main. Nice to see them get some love

Mr Game and Watch i think has the most potential of the low tiers tbh

I've found a new youtuber whose content i want to 100% speedrun! Thanks making good content, fellow Marth melee and ultimate Ness main

Mewtwo does not have reliable chain grabs on any of the cast, fox, falco and falcon included. He can regrab fox and falco at certain percents, but he doesn’t have a real chain grab

I LOVE YOUR CONTENT!

This account is an underrated top tier

Zelda was seen as a top 6 character in the early days of melee, she became a low tier just in the 8th tier list, and in pretty much mosg of the older tier lists she was a mid tier

Good Man

It's funny that Ness was nerfed into the dirt along with Kirby because he was thought to be too strong in 64. He is currently the third worst character on the tier list

I mained Zelda when I played melee (not Sheik) and was so surprised to learn she was so bad on the the tier lists. She worked well enough against my friends.

Not sure why people almost always compare Kirby to jigglypuff in tier discussions. They play nothing alike and the only things they have in common are that they are both pink balls with multiple jumps but the similarities end there.

pichu has consistently risen on top player tier lists for the last 4-5 years despite only codeman getting any results

Rare to find a channel I dont feel tricked by to watch

we need a vid on mario's potential

Glad I could watch this early lol

Don't get me wrong Zelda isn't going to win a major or isn't great, but honestly, I think she should go up a couple spots, at least where G&W is, she has her uses compared to the other low tiers, she's actually not bad against Ice Climbers for instance. Though lower than Mewtwo. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit no?

Roys my boy

I love reading these comments and being reminded that as much of a scrub as i am, most peoples competitive understanding starts with thinking wavedashing is "advanced"

i love playing low tiers (including mr game and watch because he feels like one) because when i lose then it looks like the characters fault for being terrible and not my skill issues

Zain and his Roy might have a word with this

Do they ever have Low Tier only tournaments? Kinda like Pokemon with OU, UU, RU etc.

I dream of the day bowser escapes being the lowest rated melee character

As a Ness main, I cannot imagine having to play Melee Ness considering how bad he is in that game. Also Apparently his up smash doesn’t even kill until FIVE HUNDRED PERCENT in melee.

Can we fix it?

I dont think you can honestly expect almost any change in tiering for these characters, bcuz the only ones with real potential are already higher ranked than the most awful ones like bowser is already lower than mewtwo. Even if mewtwo got better results, would he really be put up a space?

Fun fact: yoshi used to be a low tier and now he's arguably the 6th best character

You forgot Mr. Game and Incomplete Shield. I'd honestly put him at the start instead of Mewtwo

Kirby is so terrible that people think Pichu is the worst character. Because they subconsciously delete Kirby as a option.

I've hopped on unranked. I'm a Roy player and for someone who doesn't practice Ultimate or Melee, I think I'm pretty decent with Roy. I've had close games with people who are clearly better than me and they teabag me, why? Dicks. Irrelevant. Roy vs. Falco is too tedious to go through with in a tournament setting, even if you beat every best Falco, you'll be tired once you reach the mix-up which is like a Jiggs. Roy vs. Sheik feels more impossible difficulty than Roy vs. Falco for me. Sheik trades with me, wins, and takes a stock, my tools are very situational against Sheik when she can touch me and kill me. Those two characters aside, I can see Roy kicking ass at a major and maybe winning if the brackets align. Trading with a good Falcon and they just up-air you, broTHER...Almost as bad Sheik fairing me.

Ness can heal by fire ball ice climbers Down B and Special B Kirby up B

Fun Fact: Zelda has the best down special. But Sheik has the worst down special

These videos have about the same quality as asumsaus. Yet they come out so incredibly fast. I cannot believe that you do not have most subscribers

Man i was looking for game and watch and he barely missed the cut 😵‍💫😔😔

Bowser is better than Pichu, Kirby & Ness there I said it. He actually gimps Marth really well cuz he can upB to ledge from Marth Killer position as split reaction option select, bair has a semi spike angle, and actually has grab range and can reliably grab out of shield on obvious punishes. Oh and grab release shenanigans.

Zelda's best move is down B, because it lets you NOT use zelda

Roy was my favorite character. Guess people just suck at playing as him because.

I play Melee casual-competitively with my friend. Stock, no items, but we’re really bad and just have fun. Bowser is bad but SO fun!! Spamming Up B OoS and using that crazy ledge get-up attack is so funny.

I do expect Roy and Mewtwo to move up to a mid tierish range next tierlist. Zain's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Roy. Leffen's gone deep in tournaments and beaten top 30ish players with Mewtwo. Granted, I should define what I mean by "Mid Tier". Mid Tier meaning like...move up 2-4 spots. Ahead of Game&Watch, Young Link, and maybe arguments for a few other characters. But I do feel pretty strongly about those two being ahead of G&W and YL. Other top level players tried to make G&W and YL work. Axe really loves playing Young Link. Cody made a serious attempt at G&W. But they just never got the big results with those characters. They just didn't usually bully top top 30 players with their meme characters the way Leffen and Zain on multiple occasions bullied people with Roy and Mewtwo.

Really takes me back to '06 and '07 when everyone was saying that Bowser couldn't even win a tournament match AT ALL, and then MagnuM, CHAOTIC, and I showed up and proved them wrong. It makes me wonder if we could come back and prove Bowser can get out of bottom tier, but all three of us are retired.

I main Ness (and Lucas) in literally every other Smash game, but Melee is the only game where I just have to pass on him. He just has nothing going for him in this game, aside from the yo-yo glitch. Terrible recovery, bad range, not enough reliable ways to kill, there is just way too many aching problems with him compared to all the other iterations of him. In Melee, I main Falco instead.

Thanks for reading my content, honest content!!!!!😀

FUCK yes they do

Fact: K. Rool, Dedede, and Ganon are all great in Ultimate. You guys just can't play them well.

I think low-tiers should be given handicap in their favor. It'd make low-tiers a lot more viable, and wouldn't be that hard to implement.

Low tier viability, but no discussion of the wireframes.

Is it me or does Honest Content just look like GIMR but 15 years younger? Perhaps that is why the quality is so high, GIMR made videos 15 years ago (when he had hair), started a new channel and is now just releasing them.

Good video mama

Now that you mention the zelda defensive pontential the ladder on netplay before it shutdown zelda had really good win rates against most of the cast, probably because someone played like dickhead against newer players.

If ppl keep making video like this then its gonna continue to be very easy for Ness players to go around and amaze ppl.

Mewtwo doesn’t have a tail

Low tiers have low hope.

Amsa saved Yoshi from the low tiers.

Why are zelda and sheik different characters on the tier list? They are the same char in melee and brawl no?

kirby can kill everyone at 0% with the suck cheese S tier.

Did I miss something is Ice Climbers not on the bottom here

Melee is officially the worst Smash game in history they literally did my favourite Nintendo characters of all time Kirby and bowser so dirty it’s literally unacceptable what the hell was Sakurai thinking

Hmmmmmm can low tiers win locals ?

Why nobody makes mod like protect m to improve low tiers 😢

Didn't Roy already win a supermajor?

👀

I get that you needed to go through this fast, but Ness is so much worse than this implies. And trust me, I have a looooooot of experience with this. For example, Marth grabbing you, just grabbing you, is an infinite. It's ridiculous.

kirby being a poor man's jigglypuff in melee is a massive misunderstanding about his vastly different playstyle from jigglypuff. It's also a talking point that's echoed word for word by many people in the community. The only real similarity between puff and kirby is that they have multiple jumps. and Puff steals *some* move animations from kirby... sort of. To say kirby is a poor man's jigglypuff is a massive misunderstanding about kirby as a character, as his playstyle and gameplan differ greatly from puff. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Anytime I see you shit up in b teir I think of aMSa

How I see it. Mewtwo could be a mid tier, but only time would tell. With Zain’s success with Roy, he could be a mid tier, maybe in the spot after Young Link. If Zelda ever reaches mid tier, she’d likely be in front of Mr Game and Watch.

Bowser is easily worst than Kirby the only good attack bowser has is his get up attack

Well Donttestme is at least top 40 in the world sooooo

Zelda Zelda ZELDA!!!

You can hit

I think Bowser is better than Kirby, Zelda, and ness

lol this is a kids party game

Mad early for what 😭

Stop saying "Eckspecially"