How do stale moves work in Melee? 

Congrats to hbox tho

Could have baired.

It does!

Yep! That's part of what makes laser sooooo good

yup it makes laser wayyyy better than it should be and its why top players spam it its prolly just as if not more important then the % its dealing

@@turndownforwalt I needed more reasons to love/hate fox

So does pummeling!

LMAO true

Its sad isnt it

🤣 so true

It's a pretty common concept in all fighting games. Same principle as moves doing less knockback the more you use them in say a Guilty Gear combo.

@@Liimbozo within a single combo makes a ton of sense, but spamming is already not a good strategy at levels where this matters, and this system has a ton of variables to it that would make it a pretty big pain to implement because its likely to cause just a shit ton of problems because of the amount of exceptions and stuff. its really unimportant for any level of play beyond fucking up shit like this and doesnt serve its intended purpose in the slightest tbh.

How does it not perform it's intended purpose? Casual players are going to be the most punished by this. Someone who cycles their moves vs. A noob is essentially going to be 10 - 20% stronger. It's subtle things like this that give you a slight edge but still allow the game to be somewhat competitive for opponents of vastly different skills. Making sure everyone has a chance is one of Sakurai's core beliefs. So neutering noobs is a no-go. But allowing skilled players to exploit advanced tech is the whole reason these kinds of systems are so beloved

@@romeospells2487 it doesnt prevent them from spamming even slightly. maybe it'll make spamming less effective, but its already not a remotely good strategy so making it less optimal without indicating that to the players doesnt really get them to use more fun to play against strategies

the short answer is that it's 2024 lmao

Nope just tested it out I figured not but I had to check I figured it wouldnt I dont think any hittable obstacles on maps count I think shyguys are almost treated like the breakable floor on brinstar or whatever. Id assume the same would apply for pokemon but im not testing that out

@@h3ck774 oh yeah, I didn’t even think about Pokémon 🤔

oh shii i always thought shy guys did count

@@h3ck774are you sure? I’m pretty sure shy guys do unstable moves. Where did you test?

​@@byrne1807Just check B&D games' "will it stale" episode 1

According to SmashWiki, yes phantom hits do stale

It's mechanics like these that make me think how much modding will the Smash community do until they just have V1.03 (or some variation) standardized.

@@ill_hex8103 why? phantoms seem to be 100% intentional. They arent random or anything. It is quite litterally a grazing hit. if you hit someone with the very end of a hitbox, the move doesnt do any knockback and only half damage.

@@lentencraft 1. My argument isn't about it being intentional. My argument is that the Melee community hates it and might want to remove it from the game (randoms were also intentional, but guess why they were removed). 2. It actually isn't a “grazing hit”. Tangential lines making contact doesn't do anything. Phantom hits happen when the hitbox overlaps the hurtbox by the smallest margin.

⁠@@ill_hex8103I know I’m channeling the biggest nerd emoji now, so don’t take this as anything more than overcorrecting, but anyway: Uhmm, aschully, it’s still a grazing hit. You’re right about the fact that the hitboxes need to overlap by a suuuuuperrrr tiny margin for a phantom, but that might as well be a grazing hit. If you had hitboxes in real life, someone throwing a knuckle punch at someone else and only grazing the hit would mean that the hitboxes overlap by such a small amount that pretty much nothing is felt. The fist touches the other person but doesn’t hurt him. After writing this paragraph I realize that i don’t know what grazing means. If it means “just barely touching” then I’m right. If it means “just barely missing” then I’m sorry for wasting your time, or I hope you still got a giggle out of it or something.

I can tell by your display pic

this guy doesn't drephen

Plup won a whole Genesis with Zelda

No

It wasn't disrespect in the slightest. Zelda fair is a stronger move than any of Sheik's, and thus a stronger punish on rest than anything sheik could do. He was just going for the most powerful punish possible as it was a last stock situation.

@@shinji136 But Zelda is quite literally one of the worst characters in melee.

@@LordVerdo Her being an awful character overall doesn't change the fact her fair is probably the best in the game, and stronger than any of Sheik's moves. Jmook switched to Zelda because he thought Zelda fair would kill, thus the switch wouldn't matter because the game would be over.