How Dressage's Love Affair With The Outside Rein Can Damage A Good Horse 

I definitely disagree with your comment and I believe that approach is one reason why so many dressage horses are not soft or emotionally comfortable . The need to establish a brilliant feel from the reins should be established before introducing the rider's seat and legs as the primary aids to direct a horse. I've ridden a lot of dressage horses where a rider's seat and legs have been the primary connection to the horse from the early training. They are inevitably not soft in the same way that a horse that was started with a clear understanding of how to follow the feel of the reins through its thoughts. The problem is that the seat and legs are very crude and imprecise aids compared to a feel through the reins. A change in the smallest rein contact can have meaning to a horse in a way that seat and legs can not. When you start too early with directing a horse using a rider's seat and legs there is a lack of clarity to the horse. But the reins can be very precise and quiet, yet provide superb clarity to the horse. So I always advise that we should first establish brilliance off the reins and after that we start with teaching the feel from the seat legs. In that way the reins can help create clarity of what is being asked when we do use seat and legs as aids. The reins transition from being the primary aid (in the early training) to being a supporting aid to the seat and legs (in the more advanced training stage). I can tell you with absolute certainty that establishing brilliance from the reins first creates the softest and most comfortable rides for a horse. I've tried it both ways and my experience (and the experience of my students) gives me no reason to go back to training with seat and legs in the beginning. That comes later. I would like ask if you think it damages a horse to follow the feel of the reins before teaching them to follow the seat and legs. If so, how does it hinder a horse's training, performance, and/or welfare? Thank you for your thoughts

@@RossJacobs I very much respect you as an honest and dedicated horseman. I am glad that you are achieving your goals with your approach. However I believe you should respect the discipline of dressage which you certainly have given evidence that you do not understand and are not able to practice.

@@rauldeleon4863 on the contrary I respect dressage very much for what it can do for horses and riders. But I don't respect a lot of what is passing for dressage these days - particularly in competition. The ideals of dressage are fantastic, but the practices so often are a disappointment and don't come close to the ideals. A lot of what is called dressage nowadays has lost its way. I am a person who questions everything and something has to be proved to me before I accept it. It is not enough that somebody says it is correct - whether Baucher or Hester. So for you to say I don't understand dressage is to me just a silly thing to say because I study and practice and test everything before I comment on it. Maybe it is you that does not understand. I'm happy to debate a topic, but I don't see the point in you simply accusing me of not understanding. That is not productive and you have no idea if its true. If you have a criticism then debate the point. If you can't rationally defend or debate or explain your point what is the purpose of even commenting?

@@RossJacobs This is my last message on the topic. None of the videos that I have seen of your training show a supple horse and rider moving together with impulsion and demonstrating correct training exercises. That is the reason I do not think your critiques of dressage have a credible point of view., I have sixty years of experience teaching Riders and training horses in the disciplines of dressage, jumping and eventing. I count among my students the youngest Rider to win an Individual Olympic and Panamerican Gold Medal in Eventing and several other students who represented their countries in the Olympics. Have given dressage and jumping clinics in seven countries sponsored by the FEI and Olympic Solidarity.My students and horses were selected as demonstrators in the De Nemethy Method video series.My training has received world wide recognition and acclaim.All serious dressage practitioners enjoy progress but always aspire to improve their skills.Today's top dressage Riders, Trainers and horses are superior to anything that preceded them in history.All equestrian disciplines are evolving to a better standard as is the breeding of sport horses.

@@rauldeleon4863 your list of accomplishments is not of interest in a world of modern dressage. Even many heroes of the sport are modern dressage's strongest critics. Oliveira, Mendez, Klimke, de Kunffy to name a few. You seem unable to explain why you are correct in your approach, but instead just try to boast about your students. Explain to me why your horses think you are right and not why somebody sitting in a judge's box with the FEI rule book in their hand think you are right.

I understand what you are saying because it has been the mantra of dressage for decades. However, as I point out in the video, the problem is that the horse does not think where it is being asked to go, so it drifts to the outside. Applying the outside rein does not fix the problem that the horse is thinking of turning in the opposite direction to the feel of the inside rein. Dressage is interested mostly in the mechanics of movement and obedience (as are most disciplines despite the rhetoric to the contrary). Good training and riding is about the horse's idea and the rider's idea being the same and involves directing the horse's thought so that his feet flow with minimum resistance. As for the outside rein controlling the bend, again this is a misunderstanding of the inside rein. If a horse has learned to follow the feel of the inside rein the bend is proportionate to the feel of the inside rein. A horse does not bend any more or less than the inside rein is asking because if it does it is not following the feel of the rein, but instead reacting to a cue. The issue with bringing the horse together with help from the outside rein is valid, EXCEPT that first the basics must be covered before that can be achieved. In this case, the basics of following the inside rein are missing and need to be established. Later on, a more sophisticated style of turning can be taught, but not before the basics are consolidated. Never lose the basics.

Thanks for your comments. I will do my best to respond to your main points. However, I do find you comments very jumbled and I'm unsure what points you are trying to make sometimes. But I will do my best. "The original intention for Lateral Flexion, was to release/stretch the horse's poll so it isn't so stiff." I agree that the flexion can be an aid in stretching and softening the poll. But I fail to understand why you feel it is important that a horse stand still through the flexing. You don't clarity why flexing AND yielding the hindquarters hinders relaxation of the poll. I see no benefit to locking the feet while flexing and see a few problems (as I stated in the video). If you want to explain why movement hinders the benefits of the flexion, please explain. # "However.. I feel that Flexion, Rein contact, and movement of the feet.. should not all be linked together. " # # Okay, but why? I have explained why they should be linked (at least in teaching the basics of rein control), but you # don't say they should not. # # "You also mentioned long ago in previous comments: 1• "..The rider, with use of the reins, seat and legs control the # balance, movement of the feet and posture of the horse. None of that is true." # #2• "..if you teach one thing, a horse is incapable of also giving a rider the other. This is not correct."" I am not sure the context these quotes came from. However, with regard to: 1. The rider does not control anything regarding the horse and its movement. The rider only conveys intent of what the rider would like the horse to do with its balance, movement, posture, etc. It is the BRAIN of the horse that controls these things, not the rider's cues. So I can teach a horse to go forward by apply seat and leg pressure if the brain of the horse interprets that 'forward' is my intent. But I can also teach a horse to go forward by pulling on the reins (and no leg) if the brain of the horse interprets that 'forward' is my intent. 2. This quote seems out of context and I am unsure what particularly I was referring to when I made it. But I will say that a horse can learn a single response to many cues. For example, application of a rider's leg can mean 'go forward'. But also a cluck can mean 'go forward. So too can a pull on a horse's tail or twist of the left ear. I can crack a whip and bring a horse towards me and I can also crack a whip and send it away. It's all dependent on the clarity of my intent. So I can cue a piaffe by doing the exact opposite of what Charlotte Dujardin does and if the brain of my horse understands my intent clearly enough it will happen. # "In actuality - the head is the most sensitive body part on the horse. If anything, we should focus on it a little less. # # m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hGL-X1gNcFc.html # # (Btw, 2 people I look up to the most - Yourself & Warrick Schiller! You see the horse's mind, without viewing them as # an object. I love that.) # # So in short; # By using only the reins to turn the animal - you are applying a command through pulling, rather than "directing or # guiding" him. Simultaneously, this causes the horse to focus solely on his direction (What you are "telling" it), so much # so that he can lose his balance. " The head is not sensitive. The eyes are sensitive. The brain is sensitive. But the bone, muscle, and skin of the head are no more sensitive than the legs. # "By using only the reins to turn the animal - you are applying a command through pulling, rather than "directing or # guiding" him. Simultaneously, this causes the horse to focus solely on his direction (What you are "telling" it), so much # so that he can lose his balance. "" I could not disagree with this statement more strongly. Again, you seem to believe that the rider is controlling the horse's body. It is the fundamental basis of all that I do that this is not true. The rider only can influence the brain. A rider's aids (reins, seat, legs, whip, voice, etc) are only to clarify the rider's intention to the mind of the horse. They make nothing happen IF the mind of the horse does not interpret them as we wish. So applying more inside leg does not create lateral movement or cause the inside hind leg to reach further if the horse's brain does not interpret them to mean those things and create a new thought. Without our aids triggering a new thought in the mind of the horse we are riding a boat without a rudder. Using the inside rein to ask a horse to turn is intended to get a change of thought in a horse to change direction. If you don't do that you are bullying a horse around a corner and it will definitely be unbalanced and not following the line of the turn. The only way to create a correct turn is for the horse's thoughts to follow the line of the turn - since a horse is always trying to do what its primary thought is thinking. In Warwick's video, he is talking about using pressure to encourage a horse to go away or go with the feel. We should always be trying to teach a horse to go WITH the pressure. It's the difference between what I call driving versus directing a horse. You might watch this video to get a more detailed explanation ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rRKgW7TbUuw.html I know I probably have not answered all your concerns, but I'm not clear about what some of your points where. In any case, I hope I cleared up my views on some of your comments. Cheers

No, neck reining is different. To turn a horse from a neck rein is to apply a cue, not to follow a feel. Before a horse can learn to correctly neck rein, it must first learn to correctly follow the feel of the inside rein with its thought. Once this is established, first ask with the indirect rein against the outside of the horse's neck and follow with the inside rein (which has already been taught). Do it again - first outside neck rein and supported by direct inside rein. Again and again. Soon the horse will connect the dots that application of the outside rein against the neck means think to the inside and turn to the inside. Be aware that neck reining is not putting pressure on the bit or horse's mouth. It is simply the touch of the outside rein against the neck. Whereas in dressage, the outside rein exerts pressure on the bit and horse's mouth. The way these two techniques are used and the feel they offer to the horse are very different. I hope that helps.

If a dressage horse can't even follow the feel of the inside rein, why do you care about it doing a canter pirouette. What is any movement without the basics being in place first?

As I said in the video, if the horse is not thinking in the direction of travel it is wrong. In most cases, it takes the inside rein to direct the horse's thought. The reason people are taught to apply the outside rein is to prevent the shoulders drifting to the outside - the outside rein acts like a fence. But the horse drifts to the outside because of poor training to follow the inside rein with its thought. The outside rein addresses the symptom, but not the cause of the problem. Therefore, using outside rein to stop the outside drift will perpetuate the conflict between what the horse is wanting to do (drift to the outside) and what the rider wants it to do (turn to the inside). With regard to being on the forehand, using inside or outside rein does not address that issue. That is a matter of balance that is worked through by helping a horse to understand to re-balance in preparation for a turn - such as using a halt halt.

@@RossJacobs Thank you for the reply. I will take your advice and practice this. Thankyou.

If the reins were not very effective to relay your intent to your horse, then there is a hole in your horse's education. The reins are the most accurate and precise tool we have to talk to our horse when riding. It's great that your horse works from your seat/legs, but it is not enough. When you need to make minor corrections to ensure precisions and accuracy of a movement there are no alternatives that are better than the reins to do this.

@@RossJacobs The reins work fine but riding him tackless works just as well. I've had him long enough to have reached a good understanding with each other. He's not really a riding horse due to a serious paddock injury as a six year old so you're right. His training as a riding horse is pretty much non existent. He's only been used as a breeding stallion that I get on now and then.

The horse belonged to the lady in the helmet and was at the clinic because of problems. It was only slightly behind the leg, but that was the least of its problems. The bigger problems were it's heaviness to the reins, crookedness and worst of all its anxiety anytime the reins were touched. Quite an unhappy horse. The video was edited to focus on the one problem of leaking to the outside. The other issues that we addressed during the clinic were not part of this video.

I’m not sure what your point here is. Of course if you pull the reins left and right the horse will fall out through the shoulder. That’s why you never do that. The bridle is a guide, the steering comes through your body. If there’s crookedness etc etc, it’s rider who’s causing it. Subtly is the key.