@@pikminman13 ferrothorn is every trick room player worse nightmare since he's actually slower than most trick room mons and can stall out the trick room.
I actually encountered this in the wild. I wanted to check out Pure Hackmons, and I made a team of a few Zacians with Double Iron Bash Serene Grace. Encountered a team of a bunch of these, and couldn’t touch them. Yeah...
Beat up kings rock Was my go to strategy to beat them. Sometimes 6 HP at a time, but with a practically guaranteed flinch it was to annoy them out of the game.
It's actually crazy how op neutralizing gas is, like you cant use something like sturdy stall ghost type (no final gambit, no OHKO moves) or even just corrosion toxic. Can't arena trap it either to guarantee final gambit knocking out the right pokemon.
@@GabeLucario Mold Breaker and friends only negate abilities that trigger when using a move against the opponent. So something like Sturdy, Levitate or Magic Bounce. Neutralizing Gas negates *all* abilities which includes a lot of important ones Mold Breaker doesn't cover.
@content Ah right, so Neutralizing Gas would negate all Abilities from working at all. So it could stop things like Slush Rush, Drought, and Speed Boost too
I don't see what the surprise is. we are talking about the only pokemon designed to be a punching bag of 4 pokemon at the same time for 5 minutes (two of those two pokemon are legendary with a 200 base power move)
The first time Pokemon has broken its symmetrical battle system to make an actual "boss monster" like something from a more traditional RPG. Except they take all the challenge out by letting two legendaries, one of which is AG material, carry you through the whole thing.
Pure Hackmons has always been less popular than Balanced, but gen 8 Pure was an awful format. I remember running Parental Bond with Super Fang to quarter opposing Eternamax's HP, followed by Night Shade to chip the rest away. Also using Gastro Acid to negate Neutralizing Gas
To be fair, hackmons has ALWAYS been plagued by very op and unfun stuff. Eternatus was the drop that spilled the glass. Balanced hackmons on the other side has always been fun as fuck
There are actually a lot of pure hackmons formats that are fun to play. Example would include gen 6 and gen 7 hackmons. There are actual strategies to be used and checks to those strategies. For example, in gen 6 pure hackmons you see the ability Mold Breaker used a lot, because it has the capability to hit Pokémon through their wonder guard ability. You also see combinations like Fake Out + Extreme Speed to deal with these Mold Breaker sweepers once they set up. I personally think gen 6 is very balanced once you know how to play it
@@Pascal2718 well, this is true too. Some gens were pretty fun. However, and this might be personal bias. I always found balanced hackmons the more fun and varied ladder. The pure hackmons ladder felt costrained around certain kind of very broken things and its counters and checks.
@SilverAlex Yeah I can see how that could be the case. The thing about the pure hackmons formats are very matchup-dependent. As a result, it becomes more of a builder’s format in that the goal is to design a team with as little bad matchups as possible. I personally like the team building process more than the actual playing, so this appeals to me, but I can definitely see how many people prefer the balanced hackmons format
@@TheRandomshite123 Gen 6 BH was literally garbage. Gen 7 checked so much unfun stuff that over centralized the format. If you want a balanced BH with not much banned, Gen 5 BH was the peak.
that's a real shame, because SS pure hackmons had a lot of interesting things going for it eiscue being the best physical wall in the tier with his ice face together with hail ditto being an amazing early game threat with knock off and quick powder cramorant being able to switch in immediately to fast threats and guarantee paralysis on them giratina and spiritomb shananigen the meta had a lot of undiscovered potential before it was abandoned
Now, you're missing the obvious issue: Neutralizing Gas. It singlehandedly caused the PH meta to be limited to a few main abilities: Ngas, Comatose, and Magic Bounce, and No Guard. It made most staple abilities from old gens (Pure Power, Wonder Guard, Innards Out, etc.) completely unreliable. Even when Overflow didn't exist, the meta was still completely horrendous.
everything you named there other than cramorant is available in bh. not sure why you feel the need to name things ph had going for it when most are available for the meta of bh.
mans just entered the pure hackmons discord asking for ss replays, someone posted some, he said thanks and dipped absolute madlad edit: the early gens of pure hackmons are really fun since nothing on the level of eternamax or neutralizing gas exists, so strategies like huge power, wonder guard, shadow tag, even balanced hackmons strategies like regenerator and poison heal are all viable strategies oras pure hackmons has its own permaladder on showdown and there is a forum on smogon that revolves around old gens of pure hackmons i really suggest you check it out
Starmie was ranked OU in the first six generations and only finally fell to UU due to power creep in Gen 7. But then in Gen 8, it suddenly plummeted down the tiering list. A video on why would be fun to see 🥰
Heavy Duty Boots and Defog make Starmie less necessary for hazard removal. It's still a great offensive Pokemon though, but its utility is no longer needed in OU.
one of those usage anomalies, Starmie has been above-average in UU for the entire generation and is currently excellent in RU, but bafflingly never received enough usage in either tier to rise from NU (where it's also excellent). silver lining is that you have a mon that fits great into 3 tiers and can be used in all of them
Heavy-Duty Boots and more access to Defog meant it was less necessary as a Rapid Spin user. Also, you had Weavile, Dragapult, Kartana and Tapu Koko as some of the premier OU Mons.
Interesting that it works like this, as this is not the only divide by 0 failsafe in Pokémon. If you use Electro Ball on a target with 0 speed, it will deal minimum damage, same thing if a Pokémon with 0 Speed uses Gyro Ball
It might be related to the fact that I think every damage calculation in Pokemon uses "But not less than one," in the calculation. So, if you attack into literally nothing, perhaps the calculation becomes zero due to the multiplication involved in the damage calculation, which makes the entire equation = 0. But, that little bit of code at the end is unaffected by the equation no matter the outcome, so it essentially becomes: "According to the calculation, the damage is 0. The damage cannot be less than 1. 0 Is less than 1. The damage should be 1."
Yeah but then you'd just make it so that you have 1 speed if you want to use Gyro Ball, or 0 speed if you want to avoid Electro Ball. But the chances of your opponent specifically having a pokemon that uses electroball, compared to *literally any move in the game that deals damage* is uh.....lets just say a lot more niche.....
Case study in the danger of centralized metagames Btw these short-form competitive snippets are a breath of fresh air in Pokemon content, so keep it up
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 an ideal metagame for casuals and semi-competitive folk is one where a variety of strategies and mons are legitimately viable. A metagame becomes centralized when it becomes clear that one or two strategies, cores, or Pokemon are significantly more effective than everything else out there. Centralized metas often occur in OU at the beginning of the format and are diagnosed by garbage mons rising in popularity solely for their ability to check the OP stuff. See Ditto in Gen 8 pre-Dynamax ban or Seismitoad pre-Dracovish ban.
@@amlothi9043 That's why I can't call gen 1 a good competitive generation, because it is the definition of overcentralized with only 3 team slots due to being forced to not just use Tauros, but also Chansey and Snorlax due to no longer being vulnerable to body slam paralysis.
I mean it's a pokemon that was meant to go against 4 pokemon... two of which have a BST of 720... who have a move that deals double damage to dmax pokemon... one of which is Zacian
imagine watching a 2 minute pokemon video of a really big dragon being very good and all you can think about is "this is why anarchy can't work IRL!!!111!!!!!11"
@@chainsawbussyfuck what. He was pointing out how despite pure hackmons being anything goes, you dont have many options due to the big dragon, he didint mention anything irl
@@thanoid2373 explain to me what is anarchy then edit: he also said this was a videogame example, meaning there are other examples of anarchy not working
My only solution for emax was stall aegislash with leech seed and anchor shot. The eternatus would prctically heal me to full each turn due to health differences, and poison immunity was useful.
I've always been like "Oh wow I just thought of an overpowered strat for Pure Hackmons" and then realize that there are even more overpowered strats for Pure Hackmons that would instantly negate it... ugh
I once played a tour on that tier with a sample team. It was the most boring tour of all time. It was basically a war between who could horn drill all the opposite eternatus first
Gen 8 hackmons has to be the worst format ever created, I remember checking the metagame thread once and every team had multiple eternamax eternatus and regieleki. Cramorant, shadow calyrex, giratina, and kinda obstagoon are also viable and that's about it from what I saw
@@EpicFail7777777 in hackmons you can send in cramorant in gorging pikachu form which has a 100% chance to paralyze when it gets hit. this was so broken balanced hackmons banned it and freezai has a vid on the channel that details it more thoroughly
I disagree, pH has always been, and is (yes now its back) very unique, of course u could just spam eternatus and regieleki, but there were so many more strats u could use, Eiscue, zacian, cramorant, are very viable, followed by calyrex and giratina and a few more, since eternamax eternatus is there the whole meta is much more passive, but u can be reaaaallly creative with it
I am not familiar with eternatus, so when you explained his bulk problem I immediatly thought of a couple options. For starter, I thought about stalling strategies, but as soon as I realized that it is a poison type I dropped it since you'd need yo burn him in a consistent way. Then I immediatly thought of using a choice scarf no guard regieleki with a ohko move. But neutralizing gas makes it so no guard cannot is not in place. Then I stopped thinking and surrendered to the idea that this pokémon can only be dealt with with chance depending strategies.
I can certainly see why this is the case I mean, the appeal of hackmon is to try out all sorts of whacky cool stuff with your favourite pokemon and just go wild + seeing what others come up with Seeing the same pokemon with the same thing over and over again is boring and makes things stale real quick. Now imagine there's very little you can do to counter that thing and it becomes too controlling of the scheme that used to be something completely different. Yeah, of course you'd want to take it out
what is? a single extreme example? smogon are way too ban happy, and tier happy. it discourages creative team building, this is why OU teams are the same 20 pokemon over and over and same for every tier except PU. in particular their crusade to remove luck from the game is extremely detrimental to fun teams.
They banned drapult for literally no reason, it wasn't even that oppressive, lando to me feels like more of A threat, this is one extreme example, ou literally bans everything that is good, I get bans on cinderace and darmanatain-g but a lot bans don't make sense, ou now is just lando and rillaboom spam, that one annoying rain team with ferro, and stall.
People were seriously expecting a Pokemon with a 1125 BST to be anything but broken to the point of destroying an entire tier? Especially with a stat distribution where it has the HP of Blissey, better defenses than Shuckle, AND still having very good attacking stats and Speed?
I mean, what were you expecting was going to happen when you hacked in a Pokemon that was supposed to be fought in a 4v1, where two of its opponents are legendaries?
Not true, level editing ruined it. Eternatus warped the meta but it was playable, what ruined the fomat are other changes like pre-dynamaxing and HP editing that allowed for base 999999 water spouts.
Tbh the super powered water spouts didn’t do much, what’s the use in a super strong special attack when eternamax will just eat it up taking 1 damage and 2 with a crit rip
I remember right when SwSh came out I was trying to find out how to get eternamax eternatus and found its stats on bulbapedia. I was blown away, no pokemon has broken 800 stat total before, let alone 900 1000 and 1100. If they do release it I hope it gets nerfed, its weird that unlile other Gigantamax pokemon its much more like a mega evolution than just a dynamax with a special move and model, it gains HUGE stat boosts. I was worried it was going to be even more broken than mega ray and zacian I am SO glad it was never released. If im not mistaken the defense overflow could happen in a normal game right? If you had mqx ivs and the same evs nothing about that needs to be hacked
it can’t happen in a normal game; the reason the overflow works is because the game can only reach 654 when using a stat boosting nature; due to the way natures work a boosting nature would cause an overflow when said boosted stat reaches 655 stat boosts don’t count towards that equation, they’re just flat multipliers meaning they can go really high without ever overflowing the reason this was never found until recently is because nothing had a non hp stat over 230 before eternamax
@@TheDunsparceGames they meant a normal game (ie not a Hackmons) where you could use EMax Eternatus. As long as Smogon has the same overflow threshold as the game, there's no reason an EMax Eternatus wouldn't be able to do this under "normal" circumstances.
@@researchinbreeder by that definition yes the overflow will happen, his comment made it sound like he was talking about any other random mon in a game
@@TheDunsparceGames They directly mention hoping it gets nerfed if it does get released, and the comment as a whole is talking about EMax and how wild it's stats are. If you read the last paragraph in isolation I see your point, but you shouldn't be reading comments like that.
The solution is simple and I'm frustrated it's not implemented. Ban Eternamax Eternatus from Pure Hackmons. The base game literally will not let you use Eternamax. Ever. You are physically prevented from sending it out. I made an Eternamax Eternatus ysing PKHeX once (wanted to try it on the battle tower) and no matter what, the game check to make sure your Eternatus is the base form when sent out and reverts it if it has to. The base game doesn't actually allow Eternamax Eternatus to be used, so the mode that is explicitly "only things technically allowed within the game" should not let you use it. Plain and simple.
pure hackmons doesn't implement bans, that's what makes it pure hackmons, and ultimately it's why the tier failed: when there are no rules, everyone just goes for whatever makes them invincible
@@bruhbruh4329 i think in this case is ok since pure hackmon is a tier where you could do anything as long as the game codes allow it, if eternatus eternamax isn't allow in the games code it's isn't so different with mega evolution or pokemon past gen 4 in bdsp pure hackmon which are banned.
@@bruhbruh4329 i don't know a lot about but if the game code is similar to hoi4 game code then the line that controls the pokemon is in a different line than the abilities than if you change it the game still can process it unlike eternamax or megas in gen 8, maybe its true you can't change eternatus pressure with neutralizing gas, if that's the case i would also want to ban eternatus neutralizing gas since the game can't process it
@@jayq2571 game code DOES allow you to if you just give eternatus neutralizing gas in pkhex. But the game physically cannot have an eternamax outside of the bossfight cutscene
If you ever wondered why you couldn't use Eternamax Eternatus outside of seeing it when you use its signature move Dynamax Cannon, _this is why_ LMAO. Another case of what happens when you unleash A GOD!! EDIT: It's actually _Eternabeam_ NOT Dynamax Cannon.
I do have to applaud game freak on that front. For the longest time it seemed like they were terrified of putting a form of a pokemon in the games that the player could not obtain.
@@TheWrathAbove gens 1-6 had tough fights but gen 7 onwards have actual boss battles. Totem pokemon, Eternatus and the post game PLA fights cheat to put the player on the backfoot which makes it more fun when you come out on top.
The damage calculation uses Defense as a divisor at one point, so while I can't find any sources to back this up I'd assume the way Pokémon handles it when Defense is 0 is to treat the result as also 0. This is then carried on through the rest of the formula which only has multipliers and a tiny amount of flat damage left so the end result is incredibly low single-digit damage totals.
@@ShawFujikawa wouldn’t it make more sense if at some point in the damage calculation it multiplied by the defence which if it is was 0 would make the result 0. Dividing by zero would not give you zero: let’s say there is a point where 8 is divided by 0 in the formula. This would probably either have a set result that has been coded in so that the calculation does not break anything. Or it would crash the game because it would try to divide by 0, depending on how the game actually calculates division, it might be stuck in an endless loop of trying to do 8 divide by 0.
@@despacitosalad_144 I'm not speculating though, the damage formula Pokémon uses is public knowledge. It takes the (Sp) Attack stat and divides it by the (Sp) Defense stat. It's right there on Bulbapedia if you want to look it up. You say 'this would probably either have a set result' when I just said the game likely treats it as a 0 as a failsafe. In Pokémon Showdown's case it obviously doesn't crash so treating an undefined number as 0 is the simplest explanation for it.
So I looked up the formula that Pokemon uses to calc damage. It is: Damage = ( [{2 x Pokemon’s Level / 5 + 2} x Move Power x Attack Stat / Defense Stat] / 50 + 2) x All the extra stuff like STAB, Weather boost, etc. Srry it’s kinda incoherent. Basically, by adding the 0 in there, it effectively removes everything before the + 2 at the end. So, for example, a STAB Hyper Beam would deal (2 x 1.5), or about *3 damage*.
Lol, funny that the root cause of this is likely a simple ‘Overflow Error’ that one learns about in many Computer Science classes. Good ole edge cases…
I used to play Balanced Hackmons back in Gen 6 before the Prankster nerf. It was probably my favourite format because I had a team of awful 'mons like Dunsparce all working together to create a convoluted stall chain that eventually made a colossal Magikarp with max attack. It was never the best, but it was fun. I barely play it any more after the Prankster nerf, and I'm convinced my departure ruined the format for everyone else 😂
Here is the PERFECT counter; Ninjask Turn 1. Use Will o Wisp. Turn 2. Use Guard Swap. Turn 3. Use Protect Turn 5. Use Dig. Turn 6. Use Protect. Turn 7. Use Dig. Repeat. I've just fixed Hackmons 😎😎
What about Seismic Toss or Night Shade (or even Sonic Boom or Dragon Rage)? Wouldn't these always do a fixed amount of damage? I guess the meta would just shift to Eternatus running a recovery move as an answer, but still.. I wanted to add Corrosion / Toxic, but I guess Neutralizing Gas prevents that.
If you looked at the stats of Emax at 0:33, you would see that it has an HP stat of 714, which makes Stoss an 8HKO (even more if you are holding Leftovers, and forget about the move Recover). Since other Emax use Substitute, Stoss won't break the Substitute in one turn and this gives Emax a free turn to do whatever it wants; throw out an OHKO move, heal with Recovery, use Rapid Spin to boost Speed, or use Knock Off to remove the opponents item.
@@malakimphoros2164 well this thing isnt technically something somebody should be able to use in modern pokemon and i dont think u can use it yourself so it wouldve still been pure
Fun to think that, if fairy types didn’t exist, this mode would be even more unplayable. You could just do Wonder Guard Spiritomb with recycle, a berry that cures burns or poison, and other fun things like Aromatherapy and Heal bell for double PP
They really could have just banned this thing. Yeah, then it wouldn't be "pure" hackmons, but at least it'd be a playable category with enough distinctions from balanced hackmons to make its existence worthwhile.
i guess i could see tiers of hackmons, with balanced, unbalanced and pure, but i feel at some point it may be spread too thin. Pure Hackmons has always been gen 1 levels of requiring the same few things on every team, right? i think always having a pure hackmons category without any restrictions is always cool, if for no other reason than as a “what if” type thought experiment
If this is hacked mons where everything is legal. Why isn't Regieleki using no guard ohko moves to simply k.o. everything before it can go at all? Or maybe it is doing exactly that and I missed something? Edit: i watched five seconds more of the video where you mentioned neutralizing gas. That explains it.
Even regular eternatus is pretty good. Give it dragon maw, choice specs, and the move dragon energy and it can oneshot pretty much anything besides a fairy type and which is slower than it and with no priority moves. Obviously that's not broken but being able to oneshot dialga is pretty cool
Kind’ve like saying “Huh. If we let Final Fantasy players use Pandemonium Warden is broken” well yeah, it’s a Boss it’s not supposed to be fair or used like this.
for balanced hackmons i'd like to see certain banned abilities be allowed on certain mons that wouldn't be busted with them (like for example wonder guard for parasect)
I don’t really get why they simply didn’t allow eternamax I get it’s pure Hackman but seeing as eternamax isn’t even useable or a “true” form And is really just a boss they shouldn’t have included it
funny seeing a bunch of comment saying jt was a terrible format because it was unbalanced. its hacks though so like yeah obviously, the entire point of playing hackmons is to Frankenstein the most broken combo you can imagine. that was the fun part.
Even in hackmons there should be a limit to forms and EVs. I mean if you're gonna hack you could just literally set all stats to 0/ 999, why stop at max EVs?
The point is that if it's something you can hack in the game then it's allowed in the tier. So maybe you can't actually edit the pokemon's stats to be 999 in the game so it's not allowed? idk
pure hackmons doesn't ban anything for any reason short of crashing or desyncing the game, it's what makes it pure. It's an admittedly flawed premise for a tier
I play a meta where both eternamax and hackmons exist and despite what you think it isn’t as restricted, possibly because that form of eternatus had more primal Groudon like stats, so it didn’t cause overlap bugs,
Ok, so im a PH player and i have to say that gen 8 PH is the worst modern PH meta, I recommend playing Gen 7 or Gen 6, BDSP hackmons is as centralized as the only viable pokemon are Arceus forms and not much more as Neutralazing Gas is still a thing and Arceus is so bulky that you have to be at +6 to OHKO oposing Arceuses
Heck, if you could use it normally(regular moveset, stays within its form for the entire battle) it’s easily banned to AG it’s so stupid. heck probably the best Pokémon of all time. while it’s offensive stats are good but nothing too strong compared to other ubers Pokémon, its the best tank of all time not only stat wise but also due to access to recover. Immune to toxic outside of salazle’s ability(even then it gets rest). It has a good movepool.
I don't have an exact bead on the math, but it just doesn't work with stat boosts. It's a programming quirk that occurs when the base stat equals 655 or more, not when it boosts above that line.
crazy how less restrictions lead to less creativity. I seriously want to see competitive formats where the only gimmick is there's only like 100 pokemon, so many forgettable pokemon would shine
Exactly what I loved with dexit. Without the best Mons you could choose a mon that fitted the specific niche you needed in a team (ie: intimidate Arcanine instead of incin)
Eternamax takes basically 0 damage, and pure hackmons allow it to run refresh if it really wanted to. If you setup to +6, an imposter mon would just switch in, or eternamax could just stay there and spam OHKO moves
Is there a reason people didn't just trap then curse Eternatus? I'm not super familiar with this ruleset, but it seems like you'd be able to just use Block or Mean Look then Curse and stall until you win.
the rest of eternatus' stats are ridiculously high so even if you did trap it it could just nuke your team :( if you're also using an eternatus i guess you'd have to wait for one of you to struggle to death
@@squeakboy3666 did you miss the part where I specified that you would use curse? Is curse even still a thing? Curse used to deal 1/4 HP every turn. Is that not a thing anymore? And what about Destiny Bond?
Eternamax usually runs neutralizing gas as an ability. If you were thinking of having arena trap as an ability to trap it, it wouldn't work. I suppose you could try to trap it manually, but I'd be worried that eternamax would kill your Pokémon first. Heck, I've even seen Eternamaxes forgo the usual neutralizing gas to instead have no guard just so they can hit horn drills and other OHKO moves. Though, really, with eternamaxes stats, it can do whatever it wants.
Literally a world-ending apocalyptic eldritch horror capable of causing uncomparable calamaties of biblical proportions 🙏 A small mischief cat and a beagle with diseased mud on its tail Destroying the highest-tier metagame so thoroughly it is completely abandoned
Sort of related, but I remember myself fighting against a salty kid in that tier who had two Eternamax Eternatus. Now I’m kinda glad I never used the tier again tbh
I know it’s meant to be PURE hackmons, but they need to ban that and neutralising gas. Giving mons ridiculous abilities is half the fun of that mode, so almost everything having anti measures is beyond annoying
Or... you know, Showdown devs could just use a long instead of int to store bigger numbers? I get that Showdown is a Pokémon simulator but that doesnt mean you have to copy bugs too, specially game breaking bugs like that
It's not a bug, it's a feature. Pokemon has a lot of questionable mechanics and number operations. If you don't stay true to them, it will cause people to lose when they would have won on console, which is frustrating. The bugs don't make the game any less fun or interesting, so they are allowed to stay
@@puppieslovies the bugs don make the game any less fun to play😐. Etern itself made the tier unplayable. Tf u mean "The bugs don't make the game any less fun or interesting, so they are allowed to stay". Better yet I think having etern on cart would possibly crash the game too.
@@RETAIN3R_347 in normal gameplay they do nothing at all. Showdown could of course change the mechanics, but when it only matters in illegal metagames you may as well just code an entirely new game with new mechanics. It's a sim, not a fangame
See, that's not how Pure Hackmons works. We definitely screwed around with tours that banned either Emax or Ngas, sometimes both, but you can't ban something from a tier when the fundamental principle of that tier is anything is legal.
@@christianp.7675 The fundamental principle of that tier is that anything that can be hacked into the game is legal. The game does not let you use Eternatus Eternamax even if you hack
