You didn't cover this, but in addition to the S1, the Franklin company who designed the poppet valves for the PRR T1 had a staffer ride and covertly time PRR trains to determine why the valve gear kept failing on the line between Crestline and Fort Wayne. He did so for a month and timed by mileposts and stopwatch to determine if the PRR was exceeding the 125 mph designed top speed of the valve gear. Over the course of the month he timed multiple occasions where the train exceed 135 mph clocked over several miles, and on one occasion exceeded 146 mph. This is from William Withuhn's book American Steam Locomotives, Design and Development, 1880-1960.
@@nostalgiccameralife I don't have the book in front of me so I can't recall the first name, but Withuhn got it from an interview he conducted with Kirchoff, the head of the poppet valve gear program at the Franklin company. He's the one who tasked the staffer to ride the PRR trains and clock speeds, and he personally verified the accuracy of the staffer's watch and his speed calculations based on the recorded milepost timings. As you can imagine he wanted to be certain of his data before he informed his customer (PRR) that the breakages were their fault.
This is literally the same case as city of turo. Even it if had reached 100 mph first. It wasn’t recorded but then flying scotmans was and is officially the first engine to reach 100 mph (or something like that). If it ain’t officially recorded it ain’t gonna be official.
@@ludwigtails Flying Scotsman's ton, like Mallard's 126, has been somewhat debunked by careful analysis. Scotsman likely only did 97 and Mallard 120. The real record belongs to DR 4-6-4 05 002.
My father and uncle both fired steam locomotives for the B&O. My uncle told me that if an engineer, for some reason, kept the Johnson bar forward as the engine gained speed, he might wind up with a shovel-full of coal on his lap as a message from the fireman trying to keep up with the increased demand for coal in the fire-box.
@@trainnerd25 Baltimore Division, west end. They fired Pacific's on the Washington Branch, and Mikado's up the river and over the hill on the Old Main Line
@@andywomack3414 man that's so cool. I always heard that they would come out of Baltimore or D.C with a Q then switch over to an S class shortly outside of the city and take it to the west. The Pacifics were really neat and seemed to handle the best over the plains of the west with those big drivers. Its a shame we didn't get an S class preserved even if they were bumpy.
@@trainnerd25 The Santa Fe's were call "Big Sixes" back in the day. They called the Pacific's "Beetles" or "Bean Beetles." The Mikado's became "Mikes" after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Washington Branch is fairly level, but since it was built before the Civil War there are some sharp curves that limit speeds between St. Denis and Elk Ridge. By dad said he rarely saw a Big Six as they were mostly used on the Cumberland Division over the Allegheny.
My only comment on this topic is a quote I heard from Doyle McCormack when a kid visiting the Oregon Rail Heritage Center asked how fast SP 4449 could go. "The speed limit of the locomotive is the guts of the engineer." Actually, secondary comment: look at a BNSF track chart. There's a lot of mileposts that are less than 5280' apart. And some that are more than that. Line realignments will do that.
Yup. I had to deal with that while working at sound transit. We had to re do a bunch of stuff on the Lakewood sub. Lol There's video of a GS doing 115. I'd bet they went faster
Doyle’s comment is the thing about these speed claims I stand by when it comes to record claims. Crews with balls of steel pushing their locomotives to the edge for fun probably exceeded 100 and well beyond. Mallard has it officially, but no doubt it was beaten several times over.
I know the PRR T1 is more than likely capable of besting it. Watching videos of T1's doing high speed runs that have been uploaded onto YT. Seeing the amount of poles and counting the time it takes the train to pass by a handful of them within a certain period of time. Then researching the distance between poles that ran next to railroads like that usually. You can almost accurately find the speed the T1's went and I got around 118mph in one video I watched which is very damn close. And if thats possible I can imagine them going much faster than the LNER A4.
I think what I'm comfortable saying is that Mallard holds the official speed record, and that the S1 holds the unofficial speed record. It takes nothing away from the crews, the designers, the railroads, and the companies who made those amazing pieces of technology possible to acknowledge both locomotives as the magnificent feats of engineering that they are. Both deserve recognition for not just their records, but their every day running that kept money in the bank and food on the table for all who worked on or with them.
17:30 its not being rebuilt, its being BUILT, from scratch, using cad and original blueprints. Its gonna be numbered as the next locomotive in the class, which is 5550
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the ATSF 2900 class was in the running for beating mallard but probably not the fastest in the world. They were cleared for 110mph
A story I've heard from one of the old heads that works on the 2926 is that there was an engineer running late. Now he didn't like that to much, so he was running as fast as the engine would let him. He only saw how fast he was going when he started slowing down for a station, when he looked at the speedometer and saw it reading 120. As you can guess he made up the time pretty quick.
The Milwaukee road F7 Hudsons also may be contenders. The route between Chicago and the twin cities was one of the most hotly contested routes in the country, and the Milwaukee road often claimed it was the fastest, and it definitely had the fastest timetables. Often requiring start-to-stop speed averages north of 80mph, which in practice means top speeds in the low 130s. And these trains, when they would take delays, would often fight to make up the time, which has led to anecdotal stories of those locomotives into the high 140s and low 150s being relatively common.
the Milwaukee road engines also did it without a specialist crew, so without preptime or specialized crew the Milwaukee road would kick the absolute crap out of the A4s
@@Hyce777 yeah, the Milwaukee road has much less viable sources compared to the Pennsylvania railroad. Everything about them is word of mouth or is soft evidence based on other info. The timetable between Chicago and Milwaukee for example was a little more than 30 minutes faster than today's Amtrak service, which already is scheduled at 90mph and the track speed limit is rated for 110mph when it falls behind schedule.
Also the Chicago and Northwestern E4s could also give the MR a run for it's money. The CNWs call tagline was Chicago to Minneapolis in 400 minutes. And they took the long way around that made more stops.
The fastest I have gone by steam power, 160+ mph from a ship catapult. That is over 1,600psi of steam if people wanted to know. Thanks for the shows Hyce.
@@TheOneTrueDragonKing Not a pilot, or in the AF. Used the AF and pilot to fly us in Iraq you know it as "Desert Shield". A night jump during a sand storm in June 1990 got myself and 64 others on the ground, that is pre-war by the way.
@@ducewags If you were an actual naval aviator (steam catapult shot off an aircraft carrier), you would know the term "Bravo Zulu" is universal - it's fighter pilot lingo for both navy and air force for "good job" or "well done". Now you're saying you were infantry? (Who don't take catapult rides.) Something's not adding up here. Are you pretending to be military? You do know that's a crime, right? Stolen Valor...
@@TheOneTrueDragonKing Did you even read my comment? NOPE. I was NOT a pilot, and did NOT serve on a ship. The AF was used to drop us in a zone. Is that hard for you to understand?
I love that one of the anecdotes is from your grandfather. absolutely gives me chills to think of those iron giants pounding the rails at 140+ would make grown men cry to see it in real life
I remember watching a UP video where Ed Dickens was sort of doing a Q and A about 844 FEF 3's. He did mention that Railroads during the late steam period with American Railroads didn't advertise or officially recorded top speeds for their locomotives. This was because each railroad had different locomotives to perform a specific tasks. Also that with American Railroads each of the railroads were competing for passenger service. Each railroad kept top speeds of their locomotives secret so the competing Railroads wouldn't steel designs or one up them. I personally believe there is truth to this. I definitely agree about the differences in Railroad requirements between USA and UK. I think there were several American engines that could easily competed with Mallards. You had NYJ engines the J class Hudsons, and Niagra class 4-8-4. NW J class, UP FEF, of course the Pennsy S-1 and T-1, the Daylight GS4, ATSF 2900's. In my opinion all of which are contenders for Mallards title.
German 05 002 reached 200,4 km/h and could sustain that speed at that day in 1936. Several Nazi bosses were on the train. And she didn't break down like the Mallard.😂 BTW: her wheels were 2,3m in diameter.
The East German Reichsbahn later built the BR 18 in the early 1960s, because they needed a loco to test high-speed rail carriages. BR 18 201 is still operational and although she "only" did 185 kph, she would now be the worlds fastest operational steam loco.
@@23GreyFox we can do some maths to work it out we just need to know how fast the RPM could be: Since the formula is (driver diameter*pi*60*revolutions per minute)/whichever unit you want to convert it to - km/h or mph At 300 rpm (very easy to get this) it is a modest 130 km/h. At 350 rpm (could reach this) it is 151 km/h At 400 rpm (probably stretching) it is 173 km/h At 450 rpm (likely the max) it is 195 km/h At 500 rpm (perhaps beyond the max) it is 216 km/h - much faster than Mallard but might blow a valve or connecting rod before we got here. Obviously it isn't the only thing but getting that RPM up is the real question.
My grandfather remembers riding behind a T1 when moving from Ohio to Pennsylvania as a boy. Even after flying in helicopters in Vietnam, he said that riding the Broadway still felt more like flying.
@@theimaginationstation1899For someone who’s got imagination in the name, I’d expect you to have a bit more of it. Also, anything can “go for a record”, that doesn’t always mean it will break it. (It likely will though)
If you look at their website and keep up with the news they have 2 set goals In mind for this locomotive. 1. Have the ability to run mainline excursion trains with it, and 2. To break the steam record. They are working on getting permission from 2 different places so that they can test the locomotive properly. They're hoping to get Amtrak to let them use the Northeast corridor for it or there is a test track of some kind out in Indiana I think and they're certain they can use that.
I'm a bit biased being from southern Virginia lol, but the N&W J class locomotives should be considered for this speed list as well. Eventhough they only had 70 inch drivers their counterbalancing was second to none and "mathematically" they should have been able to reach 140mph although this was never tested. Their are several accounts of the J's running 115+ mph on good track, mainly the stretch between Suffolk, VA and Petersburg, VA, I would love to see a video from you on your take on the J's at some point.
I've heard multiple locomotives in the US are contenders for the speed record. The Milwaukee Road Atlantics were purpose built for the speed record but the Hiawatha train service became so popular that they never officially went for the record. And the trains got so heavy they built the Hudsons to take over the service that couldn't run as fast as the Atlantics.
I think the S1 getting ticketed for speed would be great publicity for the railroad and that may have lead to the spreading of some accounts :P Gotta say, mallard did hit 126 in the most british way possible, Going those speeds for as long as she did caused a stink bomb to explode in her valve gear, one that had been put there to say "HOLY CRAP YOU'RE GONNA DIE, THE VALVE GEAR IS MELTING." I believe the attempt at 126 was actually kept a secret at the time before the run started. She almost derailed at the bottom of the incline and limped her way to the station before they made her safe.
The S1's run happened after the ICC implemented stricter rules to prevent passenger trains from exceeding the speed limits. The PRR publicizing the run would effectively be them admitting to a crime.
@@Antimatter1207 The ICC didn't implement those rules until after the S1 was retired from service. The 79mph limit was instituted in 1947. The S1 did not run after 1946. If you have any, and I mean ANY contemporary evidence for the PRR being fined by the ICC for exceeding a speed limit *with the S1 specifically* I would love to see it.
Mallard's speed test was disguised as a brake test until the last minute. These speed tests had been disallowed and Gresley even made a gentleman's agreement to not do anymore with his main rival after a speed test almost derailed a locomotive and full passenger consist. Of course once Gresley had the A4 Class and was convinced he would definitely win that agreement went right out the window. I think it's also worth noting that the record was achieved on a downhill grade and there are some experts who claim only 124mph can be confirmed because of inconsistencies in the paper roll speed on the car used for measurement, but I obviously don't know enough personally to weigh in on that last part. That extremely short period at high speed, going downhill, did severe damage to the locomotive and it had to limp to the station at the bottom of the hill and then be towed to a repair facility. It could not maintain that speed for more than a minute or two. Personally that makes me slightly more impressed by the DRG Class 05 records, if we're going to just talk about verified, measured records. It did 124.5mph, but did it on a level test track, not downhill. Furthermore it set the stop-start-stop record, which measures average speed from full stop to full stop over a length of track. It made a 70 mile run from full stop to full stop in 48:32, which is an average speed of about 87mph. All that said, just as an enthusiastic layman, I find it perfectly reasonable to believe the S1 could have performed at these speeds as well. I'd be even more willing to believe it ran at higher average speeds under normal conditions. We'll never know, and I think even if the T1 build breaks these records, I think most people still will in many ways reject the new record because it was built with new material and building standards even if it's using an old design.
@@FirestormMk3yeah but the record isn’t just “old steam go fast”. It encompasses all steam trains, new and old. People are enthusiastic about breaking records, especially in this community
@@noahhorinek To be clear, I wouldn't be one of those people who doesn't care and disregards anything this new build will do. I'm pretty excited to see it even if just in video if it becomes real. I just understand the point of view of purists who will say it doesn't count if it isn't an actual locomotive of the time period.
I have not watched the video when making this comment. Mallard is official in terms of being documented. I have heard the Pennsy T1s regularly went over the speed but nothing was officially recorded. When talking about such things, to not confuse non-railway people, I just keep it to Mallard. I am now watching the video, LOL. EDIT: Wow! I never knew the S1 was so cool! Thanks for the technical info, Hyce, always awesome to hear! If you are not releasing another video before then, Merry Christmas and a Prosperous / Happy New Year to you and your family Hyce!
The thing that most annoys me about all of this is that the Milwaukee Road had a dynamometer car. They could have gone for the record with the F7. And yet they didn't.
My own personal anecdote of steam speed revolved around a neighbor of mine who was a retired Milwaukee Road engineer. He operated out of Savanna, Illinois but had been around the system and at one point was running with MILW 265 (currently at Illinois Railway Museum, Union IL). He had claimed that 265 had done 120 MPH under his hand to clear the lane going through Wisconsin (Between LaCrosse and Portage).
The PRR and the Reading were doing the speeds of Mallard decades before. Gresley just did it officially with a dynamometer car so it was deemed official. But the Readings Atlantic City Flyer with its 86” drivers Camelback P5 Atlantics and the PRR E on the Boardwalk Flyer. PRRs E6 was Pennsy’s smoothest high speed loco for ride quality and crews felt safe taking it to its limits.
When we talk about the speed-rekord its funny that noone thinks about the Class 05 from the DRG when you make just a little more about 125 mp/h but in contrast to the Mallard the 05 002 didn't broke a bearing and when they reached the record. The Class 05 had 90,5 inch drivers and 290 psi boiler-presure.
The unofficial record I like to point to as relatively plausible is the Milwaukee Road's streamlined Class A Atlantics used for Hiawatha service. Lightweight running gear on 84 inch drivers seems incredibly plausible for the unofficially recorded speeds of around 132mph on the Twin Cities Hiawatha.
like every comment here, grab your salt pinchers... Mallard holds the 'Official' record, as it was an organized attempt at the speed record, using recording equipment onboard (under the pretense of a 'brake test' to not arouse Ze Germans) while the S1 claims are an unoffical record, in that there was no declaration of going for a speed record, just a case of "hmm, we appear to be going a bit quick here... Driver must be in a rush, oh dear we're doing 130+mph and now we're in trouble" which would probably be seen more as a PR nightmare of "we can't be doing these speeds as we may be seen as careless/reckless, so shut up about it" So yes, the S1 was probably going faster than 126 on the regular, but more of a hush hush campaign to stop getting loco crews in trouble. Mallard's run was pure PR for the LNER and to stick middle fingers up at Ze Germans.
On an interesting side note the BR standard class 9F freight locomotives proved that dispite their 10 small 5 ft 0 in drivers that they were very much capable of pulling fast express passenger trains if called to do so. "On one occasion, a 9F was set to haul an express passenger train, in place of the normal LNER pacific, from Grantham to King's Cross. An enthusiast aboard the train timed the run and noted that twice the speed exceeded 90 mph. The driver was afterwards told that he was only supposed to keep time, "not break the bloody sound barrier!". He replied that the engine had no speedometer, and that it ran so smoothly at high speeds that he just let it run as fast as felt safe. Nor was this the only instance of 9Fs reaching high speeds. However, concerns that the high rotational speeds involved in fast running could cause excessive wear and tear to the plain-bearing running gear prompted the British Railways management to stop using 9Fs on express passenger trains." To give you an idea just how high the rotational speeds were the wheels and valve gear were doing 6 rotations every second!
Why tho? Mallard got the speed record when steam was still in wide use, and when so many railways were competing, trying to break the record now would just kinda be...lame
One might argue that the US railroads, given the fact that they rarely used dynamometer cars or even equipped their locos with speedometers, weren't competing at all. Better late than never to see who was really the fastest. And alternately, you can never REALLY go wrong with "big chooch go fast".
My understanding is that the Germans (who held the record directly prior to Mallard's run) do tend to take Mallard's record with a pinch of salt, in that their own records were achieved approximately on the level as opposed to Mallard hitting its top speed on a downhill stretch... I've heard that Germany was due to make another attempt at taking the record, only for the events of the late 1930s and early 1940s to get in the way of doing anything of the sort
Very interesting explanations. Similar claims are made for the Milwaukee Road Hudson class F7 (6 units built 1937/1938 by Alco), there it was passengers with stopwatches taking times between mile posts coming up with speeds up to 205 km/h. On a line without cab signalling, probably with road crossings, with a regular Hiawatha train ... Crazy times; nowadays the safety regulations are much stricter.
Thanks, Hyce, for this informative---and entertaining---post. While we don't have 'official' proof that the S1 outran the Mallard, the anecdotal evidence suggests that it did....I like to believe it did, anyway....😉 Merry Christmas!
Hi Mark, finally got to watching this and it was fascinating. Hearing you explain how locomotives operate fast was most interesting and clarified questions I had from my personal readings that I was going to ask you. Speed aside, the fact that engineers continually designed toward the ultra-efficient choo choo (sometimes so much so that they became operational and maintenance headaches) is just mind blowing. And those intense psi’s, OMG. I think both choo choos were beautiful in their streamlined look, but I have to admit British choo choos are most artistic and generally so clean lined. Of course, I’m always a sucker for the American version decorated in the rococo revival style with gilt highlights! There’s so much to enjoy and learn from both sides of the Atlantic. Anyhow Professor, many thanks for your latest and fabulous learning video. As always, cheers to you!
I wish you could have met and talked with Jack Elwood, sadly he passed away in 2020 at 100 years old. He spent 43 years working for AT&SF. He could remember a particular late-night run in 1945 where he was in the left-hand seat of a 2900 class 4-8-4. Still factory fresh and all-roller bearings. The engineer didn't want to be out on the road any longer than necessary, so he gave Jack fair warning and inched out the throttle. Jack remembered the engine bouncing and shaking to the point he wrapped an arm around the firing quadrant in fear of being thrown from the cab. Using his watch and counting telephone poles, which were put a standard distance apart, his best estimate was 140 mph +/- 5 mph.
@@Hyce777 Looking forward to chatting with you! The 2900s were definitely not built for that kind of speed. About 600 RPM. Only the main drivers (Axle No.2) and the tandem pair directly behind them (Axle No.3) were cross-counterbalanced, the other driver sets (Axle No.1 & No.4) were only counterbalanced per AT&SF standard practice. They would have been balanced for a max of maybe 100mph (420 rpm). Hence why it was trying to shake itself apart and throw the crew out the windows. One failed lubricator line to the cylinders or crosshead and all hell would have broken loose. The Pennsy S1s and T1s were higher-quality machines with all driver sets cross-counterbalanced for running well over 120 mph. I completely agree with your assessment that the S1s probably had the potential to be the fastest and that the #5550 may one day hold the world record.
I find it kind of funny that in the UK they went to the effort to prove which engine was the fastest, doing top speed runs with dyno cars and all that, meanwhile here in the states the attitude seems to be, "Oh you want to know how fast we can go? What's it to ya? We meet the schedule, what does it matter how fast we were going in order to make it? You tryin' to bust us for speeding or something, cause I ain't saying nothing." The result of this of course being the "official" record is from the UK, but there are a lot of anecdotes about trains in America going faster, some times much faster. It would make sense for an American engine to hold the record, being generally bigger and more powerful, and being aided by the fact that this country is a lot bigger and more recently urbanized than the UK, especially in the west, this lets locomotives have more time to get and keep speed. Yet in spite of all it has going for it, all America has are anecdotes and some speeding tickets, nothing as precise as a run with a dyno car like the Brits did. Now that is not to say the anecdotes should be completely disregarded, I for one am convinced by these stories and think that an engine like the S1 or T1 beat mallard, though to what extent is unknowable, as good as they may be, railroad clocks and mile posts are not as accurate as a dyno run, though not inaccurate enough, by my guess, to completely account for a nearly 25 MPH difference in speed.
All is relative, the only reason mallard got into the books with bells and whistles, is the rivalry between those UK lines. Where the large locomotive in the states could do similar speeds or better, but didn't feel the need to brag about.
This all sounds to me (UK) like sour grapes. When jet engine powered cars go for the land speed record, incredibly exact measurements are taken. Any 'unofficial' numbers are ignored.
For me 05 002 deserves the record since 1.it was going on level terrain while the mallard was going downhill 2.it sustained that speed for a longer period of time 3.it didnt break down 4.it has gone over 176 kmh multiple times while the mallard only once
14:25 Milemarker and Milepost are not interchangeable. Mileposts are a function of the stationing of a railroad (0+00.00 , 1+00.00 , etc. basically the length in feet along the centerline of the tracks from a starting point) Milemarkers, however, are the physical signs along ROW that are generally where their corresponding milepost is, but section crews have habit of using some creativity in where a milemarker is placed. If anything, this distinction should make the S1’s claim more credible since timetables are using milepost and also were likely revised significantly after the 1918 ICC valuations, which produced very detailed and accurate maps of RR ROW which civil engineers for railroads still frequently use for projects.
Very good point; and I should've remembered that from dealing with mile markers not matching mileposts and the proper stationing on the sub I worked on. Lol!
I hear the A.T.S.F. engines in the 3751 class 4-8-4 (heavy mountain) with 80 inch drivers were pretty quick also. My great grandfather who worked on the railroad said these passenger steam engines would routinely go 100mph +
The NEC would be straight enough for the T1's run if it was allowed. Also, if the S1 did hit 156 mph, the engines had to be running at least 620 rpm (per crude calc). Which is fast.
There is another potential for the American locos, the New York Central J class. 4-6-4 Whyte arrangement. I've seen some books and former drivers claim them capable of 130+, either way it's just a cool thought to have, to enjoy talking about these various locos and their stories so they're never forgotten.
The PRR was fined though for this stunt at 156 MPH. PRR 7002 might have gone 127.1mph as well. If only someone could find that. I hope T1 5550 will beat mallards record that will be nice.
I just keep thinking about what I read somewhere once that stated that one of UP 844's older sisters was clocked at 123 mph during one run. Granted, I don't know all the specifics with the piston and back pressure and all that, but if an FEF could achieve that speed, when she wasn't really intended to go that fast, how fast could the S1, that WAS built for such speed, get up to? I figured that Mallard's record was smashed long ago, but since no one in the US was too bothered about it, Mallard still holds the official title. We'll probably never know for certain, so the Brits get to keep their bragging rights - for now at least.
As a Brit, if we are talking unofficial speed records. I would like to say in the 1950s when British Rail was formed, engineers from former rival Great Western visited and worked on the North Eastern, and corrected the timing issue, or at least improved, on the A4's middle cylinder, so it did not overheat or overloaded as easily. But a story goes, that Mallard's older sibling Silver Fox broke the record going 130 mph, and its driver and fireman over drinks and blurted out what they did, as there was a secret between crews, not to speed or go over Mallard's record. And their bosses overheard this and fined them. So to me.. Mallard is not even the fastest A4...its older sister Silver Fox was quicker. But one is in preservation and the other is not. It may not be much but, this is my ten pence or fifteen cents on the matter.
Two aspects of these PRR claims have always bothered me, and don't get much comment. First is that, at the time, there were still many cars running with friction bearings. There are no hotbox anecdotes in the literature. Second is the timing at grade crossings. The circuits were not set up to handle these speeds, so there must have been instances of trains flying over grade crossings with the gates still up, if there were gates at all. Again, no stories of great collisions in the literature.
Another locomotive I'd like to point towards being a contender for the speed record would be the Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha streamlines. Specifically, the F-7s. They had the same driver diameter as the Pennsy S1 (84 inches), a 300 psi boiler, and 23.5" x 30" pistons which made them capable of their DESIGNED service speed of 120. With a service speed THAT high (in contrast with the LNER Class A4's 90 mph service speed) I don't doubt that at some point they very well may have surpassed that 126 MPH mark! Of course, this is entirely just speculation. Loved the video anyhow! P.S: Did you have trouble finding PRR Heavywights? The Amfleets behind the S1 is... jarring
there are only three things i say to this topic: 1. Mallard got damaged during her run, 05 002 didn´t. 2. Mallard never run over 110 MPH again, 05 002 did run nine times over 110 mph, five times over 115 mph and twice over 120 mph. 3. im kinda hyped for the PRR 5550
Grab the popcorn 🍿 this’ll be fun. Hot take: if we’re talking Gauge both in track and loading, Mallard is the fastest Standard gauge on the UK scale. But the fastest Broad Gauge Steam locomotive probably was VR S301 Sir Thomas Mitchell on the inaugural run of the Spirit of Progress. Sadly that engine was scrapped in the 50’s. In terms of ‘Murica, I wouldn’t be surprised if the S1, Streamlined K4, T1 or the NYC Hudson would be the fastest steamer. As for narrow gauge… nothing from the DRGW can top the might of the WAGR S or W class. While it’s not certain how fast they could go, definitely was faster than 65km/h
So what's the story on the claimed fines? Because I'd love to know anything about that. I mean actually know, not just repeat rumors and myth. The ICC didn't institute the 79mph speed limit on passenger trains until 1947 (after the 1946 Advance Flyer tragedy) by which time the S1 was no longer in service. So who issued the fine? Is there *actually* any record of it? Where's the proof? If the fine was real, then we should know what day this happened on, etc. But nobody seems to know.
I once read a paper about a T1 that ran out of Union Station in my hometown of Crestline OH where the T1s began their run to Chicago. I don't remember what paper it was but the claim was she ran in excess of 130mph between Bucyrus and Lima. And again in excess of 140mph between Lima and Fort Wayne. I still remember the PRR Roundhouse with the long bungalow off the one end where the T1s were serviced before it was demolished a few years ago. It's cool to know the town I've grown up in for 23 years was one of the main hubs on their system.
German steam locomotive 05 002 ran 200,4 km/h (= 124 mph) in 1936 between Hamburg and Berlin towing four coaches with ca. 200 t (metric). In 1903 the first three phase AC driven railcar reached 209 km/h (= 129,9 mph), provided via a three pole headline over the line between Marienfelde - Zossen near Berlin, Germany.
coming from the UK here, Tbh im excited to see the T1 return to steam, because well as what 60163 did for Steam newbuilds it ignights the fire (pun intended) interest for new steam locos and inspires a new generation of steam rail enthusiasts. the sad thing is Malard had become the posterchild of speed when it comes to steam, other British Locos like the LMS Coronation class had more power also had streamlining and was the LMSs response to the A4s sadly unlike the LNER the LMS did not have long stretches of "racetrack" lines to test at speed, the fastest was 114mph and the run was cut short was the breaks being applied as she was coming into Crewe too fast almost derailing on the crossovers. the LMS rather sensibly bared any future speed runs. then you have wartime austerity and once you get to postwar the priority was to rebuild and steamlocos were old news and in a world of postwar rebuilding locos trying to beat records seemed well frivolous, it was about the the car and the new Jets and by the time rebuilding had finished it was all about diesels and eletrics. long story short malard and even Flying Scotsman to some extent overshadowed a lot of their comtempories (the LNER marketing was effective), most of them would never get a chance. (the loco that did 114, Number: 46220 "Coronation" would live an uneventful career and be scrapped in 1963), I can't wait to see T1 and ill be excited flying over to see her once complete, And if she beats the record: fair play and ill take my hat off to that and respect the hard working people who worked on her and donated to make that dream a reality.
Man imagine getting a speeding ticket in a locomotive Thats quite amazing considering all the science and technological aspects that go into building these machines, and the concept itself is relatively simple. Always amazes me how powerful steam, a basic element of nature can be.
Mallard got towed back after it broke on its record attempt. The S1 finished its trip uneventfully, until the regulatory bodies wrote it a speeding ticket!
U missed the German 05 002 with >200km/h record in 1936, what's the official record for a "standard loco" manufactured for daily use until the 1950ies, officially on a standard railroad between Hamburg and Berlin. The Mallard record had two things added on top: a) on a sloping railroad!!! and the mallard was prepared for the record with thecial technical features. So the German 05 002 really is the "daily use standard record holder"... ;-)
I find it very odd that after the 100mph barrier was ( officaly ) broken in 1904 that steam locomotives were "only" able to get another 26mph in 34 years and that was it.
Oh dear, will this spark the age old "limey vs burgerman" foamer arguments yet _again?_ 😂 I hold to my standard that any speed record *_must_* be on level ground or uphill, at no point must gravity or any other outside factor be allowed to assist. Dynamometer car or not, Mallards record is imo illegitimate because of the variable of going downhill, no matter how slight.
I've also read speculation that the LMS Princess Coronation Class could have exceeded the A4's if their routes were more flat and allowed such speeds to be pulled off, especially considering it had 4 total cylinders instead of 3 also don't forget that a PRR Engineer claimed to have hit 100mph in a PRR E2 Atlantic, but again mile marker inaccuracies and no record keeping means it was likely running at 75-80 (but the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania won't dispute it on the placard of the surviving E2 they have)
An interesting point is that the US trains were in revenue service whereas Mallard was specially prepared with a light load. So the real thing is how fast did they run with a load of passengers and there I think the US wins hands down.
Something I find unreasonable for the S1 and T1 speed claim is workers are claiming, but none of the passengers confirm this because that speed 140mph the passengers would be notice that
Very interesting topic. I never looked into that argument that much, but I know about a German engine (05 002) which in 1936 was measured to run at a speed of 124,5 miles, just half a mile slower than Mallard which broke that record 2 years later. With DR 18 201, Germany has the fastest operational steam engine (top speed 113,3 miles). Maybe the T1 rebuild will be able to dethrone it
No one mentions the 600 Roanoke class that was built in the Roanoke shop in well Roanoke Va. They are really fast despite having to accommodate the mountainous terrain. These engines have Timken tapered roller bearings in the wheels and rods. You are not going to cook those bearings. One is operational still 611 stored at the Transport Museum in ROA VA.
The 600's are, beautiful and impressively designed machines. The small driver size takes them out of the conversation for me though. Roller bearings, balancing, the whole nine makes it a great, easy to smoothly run fast engine, but it still comes down to that piston changing direction, and with wheels over a foot shorter than the S1; you're doing that a lot more often for the same speed. Were they slouches? God no. Could they do 110? I'd bet so. I don't think they're in record territory though.
@@Hyce777 I think one hundred and teens is reasonable for the 600's BUT I know a guy that has a in at the museum (and owns a parlor car) He will know all the lore. I will ask him.
The S1 is 481 tonnes .. Mallard : 165tonnes ( 316 tonnes lighter that's a mammoth amount difference ) Half the size, narrower, Way way more sleek and aerodynamic then the S1 .. S1 is more Powerful but that doesn't translate automatically in more mph.. And why didn't those who created the S1 not go after the record officially ? who wouldn't want that record associated with their loco.
I think there are tons of US Steam that could have and probably surpassed the 126 that the mallard officially did on a frequent bases, Between the S1's and T1's and the NYC Hudson's, and a lot other, Hell there are rumors that that the UP's FEF-3's could push those speeds if the engineer had a low enough self preservation instinct.
Honestly I probably have the worst opinion out of this, I don’t think either actually hold the record. Yes mallard holds it officially but who knows, maybe there’s a locomotive out there that we’ve never even heard of that went crazy speeds but just faded into obscurity
I would not accept the official record of the "Mallard" because it was measured on a slightly sloping track In return, the officially confirmed record of DR 05 002 is not mentioned for "obvious reasons..."
Locomotive engineers, like all railroaders, are large children. If they are given the “OK lets test this puppy out but you can’t tell anyone” from the road foreman sitting next to them in the cab, they are not going to be the voice of reason. I guarantee that 126 has been exceeded in a steam locomotive both here and across the pond. No one who enjoys driving trains is going to trade their job for the official record.
Fwiw the confirmed (by dynanometer) record on flat track and under load (and undamaged to boot), so the confirmed record closest to actual, everyday revenue service conditions was DRG 05 002. That's not exactly an honorary mention even, that's much closer to what the Pennsy duplexes may or may not have achieved than when Mallard tried for the record.
MALLARD CHEATED!!! When the record was set for mallard the locomotive was going down a hill not to mention the locomotive broke and had to be pulled out of service and repaired after "Setting the record". For it to have broke the record it would have to have done it on flat ground and not broke the locomotive in the process. Change my mind!
We happen to have an entire fleet of unrestored, high speed express locomotives to mess around with and do whatever without upsetting anyone (they are 18 of its sisters in preservation, who cares if we ruin one) I am of corse talking about the merchant navies. Now put aside any stigma you have to them. especially after the rebuild you had a modern, well engineered express locomotive capable of cruising at 85mph with a top speed of 100. Give it a streamlined casing, modify the boiler for its origional working pressure of 280psi and possibly a mechanical stoker and send it down hs2 for the fun of it Tldr: I should stop snorting crack
PRR's little E6s 4-4-2 Atlantic was documented as being pretty speedy. Alvin F. Staufer's 1962 book Pennsy Power recounts an interview with an E6 engineer named Bud Lothar who comments that the locos could develop a tipsy side to side movement around 70 mph and it could get kind of scary - you fixed it by going faster, engineer said it would settle down and the speed would keep right on climbing.
I mean, once the T-1 gets built, I have a feeling that either Amtrak will allow the engine to break and set the new Speed Steam Engine Record, so we’ll wait patiently for that eventually
