Couple notes... 1) In each test my friends (Toidi & Onyx, AKA minion #1 and minion #2) were using the healing auto "No Hesitation" so Greg didn't annihilate me, but this does add a 10% stacking damage buff so just and FYI there. 2) For some reason there was a HUGE chunk at the end of the Thunderlord test, if that hadn't happened the damage would be far lower.
For some reason that chunk happens for every machine gun. There was a video I saw before Final Shape that compared a bunch of dps options and that happened consistently for thunderlord and Retrofit Escapade. Not sure if it is a visual bug with the health bar at the bottom or if there is some net code related bug that causes this and the machine guns should not be doing this much damage
@@jaredrocha2430 There's some kind of issue with the game where it struggles to keep up with high-RPM sources of damage like that. Unsure how much of it is connection based versus just the game's code being improvable in some way.
@@aidenhutchinson7550 there wasn't quite enough time to fire it given the length of the phase, but given some orbs from Goldie hunters or whatever, maybe?
@@azianderson-it’s not really that bad, also it’s not the best gun compare to grand overture of course, the reason I don’t really use it cause people overrated it too much like in lfgs people said:” use thunderlord, it’s the best gun” 😂
@@azianderson-it's not a bad gun, it's just average. it's a good baseline to see what's "viable". anything above is viable, or barely viable, and anything below is not.
Real benefit to Microcosm is pairing with kinetic specials like Mountaintop or Supremacy with surges and rebuilding transcendance esp on warlock for maintaining debuffs. You can run a recombination on mountaintop as a burst or run FTTC/Rewind - or KT on Supremacy to just turn into a sustain king. With how strong elemental primaries are its just better to run those for general ad clear so if you're doing Warlord's or fighting the Witness with some bad teammates who can't pump damage you can really push your total damage with just your base reserves and still have a good primary which is the weak part about the Nighthawk hunter kit.
side note to make it easier to manage no hesitation healing/damage buff, have them use witherhoard so it'll refresh the energy as hes shooting it, guaranteeing you have the buff up at all times granted, this makes healthbar testing vastely more annoying but if youre going off wipe screen it's fine
On some of the tests (particularly 3 and 4)you lost a few seconds of paracausal imbuement before you started firing, so those numbers could be a smidge higher
would be tough solo to squeeze it in, which is basically what this was...so with a competent fireteam, you wouldn't have time to get a second nova since the boss should already be dead!...unless you have teammates who do zero dmg lol
Man if these weapon had an element attached to it I would have cooked using eternal warrior and star eater to get the surge x 4 plus the buff it gets after using your super, plus the buffed super would be very very good.
Thunderlord is still not great against the witness though, since its too inaccurate to hipfire and you'll very likely have to stop firing somewhere along the way to dodge a witness beam -- which completely nukes the RPM and DPS of the weapon by comparison
Just some personal thoughts. I feel like that Thunderlord Microcasum comparison was kind of lazy. We didn't get any kind of control to compare between the two guns side by side without a laundry list of factors added which affect each. Different people are going to use different set ups for different reasons and having a good read on a weapons power at base and then how different factors could potentially hurt or help it will help a broader audience of players make good build choices based on there person preferences or teams needs.
Was looking for a comment like this. Yeah, they changed it way back in Beyond Light so that Well turning weapon damage into super damage for super-like effects only affects the caster.
I mean, I like running Thunderlord on my titan, my secondary character, with Actium War Rig because I rarely have to reload during a damage phase and it is a king of lazy DPS.
It's great, though all of these options have slightly different drawbacks from each other; in Levi's case it's comparatively weak reserves, a reliance on external reload boosts, and the fact that missing a crit on it is devastating. On the other hand you can hipfire it, which is huge for Witness if you're not used to the attack patterns obviously, but also in cases like Ir Yut it makes it easier to aim.
Would Euphony be better on Prismatic with Apotheosis/Star Eater. I know you won't have access to increased threadling damage but would the beefed-up super make up for this?
In the lazy DPS category, really gotta add Whisper, 1K, and Leviathan's Breath. Whisper in particular is a super obvious shout given the artifact gives it 15% more damage after the first couple shots and scorch to boot. Really hard on Phry'zhia though, maybe you want Avarokk instead? Or Templar
ik this isn't going to be as good as hunter dps, but i wonder what numbers warlock will get with still hunt, apex and rain of fire? mostly asking because not everyone has euphony, so it would be cool to see what kind of damage they could do with that rotation.
It would be SUPER cool to know if a Warlock with StillHunt + Apex + Nova + Star-Eater + Turrets do more or less damage than Microcosm + Nova + Star-Eater + Turrets. Because at this point seems the way to go for Warlocks is Microcosm... Well, at least until we see how crazy numbers are for Whisper (Whisper + Nova + Star-Eater + Turrets).
Apotheosis on strand is stronger than Star-Eater/Apotheosis on prismatic because of the threadling fragment buff, right? Was just wondering if it's worth to run that instead.
Couldve used the facet that reloads weapons when freezing since you were using the freeze turret. Also that euphony rotation was pretty bad, didnt use thread of ascension.
is a star eater + apoth needle storm on prismatic worse for euphony than mono-strand with evolution? idk if front loading the damage of needle storm better than just a flat buff to threadlings
Its better on strand with the fragment that buffs threadlings and the one that reloads weapon on grenade use, needlestorm threadlings don't get the star eater buff
@@thomash8513not true whatsoever but okay… Euphony is best for longer encounters (like the WR final boss, for example) because you can have the top DPS options in two slots of your inventory, using two types of ammo. It’s the same reason lucky pants / malfeasance is so popular. Endurance *with* insane damage = best damage option in the game for a lot of use cases. It’s why GLs are so popular. Ammo economy generally sucks on a lot of big damage heavies.
@@Alex-ug9wx euphony competes with most linears but it’s still ass cause it’s a linear. Linears seriously need a buff you want a good sustain weapon use whisper or still hunt. The difference between euphony and lucky pants is that 1 is doing as much bns rockets with Wolfpack and the other is competing with other linears I’m sure u can figure out what does what. gls do higher as much sustain dps as still hunt. I will say tho rockets are technically the best rn but require a gally which isn’t with it outside of speed runs
you did not pop transendance with Thunderlord, which should give it an extra 5% damage, further lower the gap between Thunderlord and Microcosm to likely within the margin of error
I still feel like I dont truly know what to use when it comes it witness as a warlock...ive seen people use microcosm, euphony, snipers and I just wanna know what is best at this point
He did't use transcendant with TL and he was also able to use his nova bomb again as ThunderLord generates more super energy at almost the end of DPS, this would have surpassed Microcosm by a lot
For game testing purposes, would it be beneficial to proc sniper meditation before popping still hunt’s Goldie shot(with or without celestial) or would it be too much of a dps loss to pop it during a damage phase? Maybe you could pop three shots into ads before the damage starts
I think with the sheer number of Cayde's you can pop (typically 6 or 7 within a full Witness damage phase), having that first one not be fully buffed isn't the end of the world.
Sad to see that you didn’t even tried with the euphony rotation so it makes it look like euphony it’s actually garbage when you can easily do like 80% more total damage with its rotation. Tho good vid 👍🏻
I did acknowledge that I missed a few crits, but even if I didn't, we're only looking at around 2.5/2.7m, which compared to the other rotations is nothing in comparison.
@@LlamaD2 but you manually reloaded instead of reloading with the nade and after the super throw instead of spamming melee and nades it's better to shoot and nade 3 times, that and adding up the rocket as well exactly as the still hunt rotation. One combo i'm looking forward for you to try is class item with apoth + star eater and popping transcendence after maxing spindles, also you can use facet of command for at least 1 or 2 auto reloads in the dps phase, all of that + apex explosive light, i`ve manage to do almost 6m to the witness with that combo in one phase
further proof that the content creators/commenters saying Celestial Still Hunt is the best damage in the history of the game have no idea what they're talking about when its barely 300k above 2nd place with the artifact boosting it, they just saw Hunter with an already optimal damage set up for contest and got whiny.
So thunderlord is better bc you got two supers and didnt proc transendence. The final damage including second nova and transendance might have honestly killed greg.
Can you do a damage comparison with cloudstrike rotation you did to whisper and a still hunt rotation. Bc with the new artifact mods idk what ones better. ON TITAN bc we all know still hunt hunter rn destroys titans cloudstrike but not whisper it’s kinda close with whisper
There's something in destiny code where you get super energy back based on weapon hits, not just kills and I think it is coded per specific weapon archetype. I remember seeing an orpheous wishender nightstalker GM build and the guy would get his super back in like 30-60 seconds because wishender is a bow with a really slow draw time and really high damage but every time it hits it gets 3 damage numbers from piercing arrows, so basically triple super energy generation. Microcosm gave him a little more than half his super bar back by the end of the damage phase, so I guess machine guns in thunderlord's archetype are coded to give more super energy back per hit, but thunderlord also spawns lightning strikes which are basically extra hits, plus it increases it's rate of fire, so even faster super generation
@@voyager3951 you're basically correct. there are a few things that go into it, it's poorly understood and probably miserable to test thoroughly, but assuming they wanted it to be roughly equal across different archetypes of the same weapon category, Thunderlord ramps up to ~720rpm, with a lightning strike every 10 hits on top of that. Makes sense that Thunderlord would generate a ton of super provided the super formula is something like "a flat amount based on the weapon archetype, ammo type, and frame, plus another amount that is multiplied by the damage of the hit"--generally RPM increases are more DPS than damage increases in this game (which is balanced because they don't improve your total damage), and on top of that an RPM increase would give you the full amount more quickly while the damage increase would only give you a slightly bigger amount less frequently. This also explains the behavior of Wish-Ender (which I think did get a direct super gen nerf, but I might have made that up). Microcosm is by comparison a bespoke weapon frame which doesn't get pushed as hard by Paracausal Imbuement as Thunderlord's perks push Thunderlord.
If you hit more crits and rotate between a burst of euphony and threadling nade you should be able to hit around 6 mil with on the witness. Since the damage phase is shorter here It might be less but it's still an amazing damage exotic, definitely better than microcosm if you have it.
i didnt realise microchasm was that good i never even thought about getting it i only do like 2m dps with warlock + any rocket really i really should pick it up huh
Your dps testing is just lazy man. Keep the variables the same; you’re interchanging so much stuff for no reason and the viewer exits with no conclusion made whatsoever.
The stuff he changes is what you'd generally *actually use* on that different setup, though. What good would the video be if he wasn't comparing different setups, and using them in a way that reflects how *_they'd actually be used in-game?_* It's not a video about scientific rigor, it's about showing how different yet similar setups perform against a known target. If you just want plain old apples-to-apples numbers comparisons you can look at the online spreadsheets, no?
i mean realistically if you want lazy dps just run whisper or leviathan, or even 1k like genuinely we need to stop making thunderlord and micro seem good because there are better options for just ever so slightly more effort
