Missed Dialogue (+ context lines around it): Garen: He's still a murderer. Lux: And a liar, and a traitor. Lux: He's also saved many lives, and he's changed the minds of many Demacians. Including yours. Lux: People can be many things. Garen: You've certainly shown me that's true. Luxanna the rebel, the exile, the leader. The mage. My sister.
They could have had J4 self-exile to live in the mountains with Shyvana. Would have given consequences to his actions without making him not feel "heroic" enough for a league champion. Also could have set up the classic "return of the failed leader after he learnt that his ways were wrong living with the people" story in a few years if Riot wanted to revisit his story.
I though the same thing forawhile, although it arguably puts demacia in even worse condition than before. I wish he had been both cowardly enough to run away from the country he himself left to ruin, but to also do it because he doesn't believe he deserves to keep his position after he drove someone like Shyvana away.
I wish Lux would come at Garen with at least HALF the energy she came at Sylas. Why should Garen be instantly forgiven by her for showing up ONCE, despite actively participating in a g*nocide against people like her, when she still can't forgive Sylas for using her magic as a last resort to *literally save himself from an unjust execution?* That you know, Garen *personally* ordered? For the crime of… talking to his sister?? Like maybe the problem here is Garen and not Sylas saving himself from her murdering brother wtf Lux???? Like if they HAD to write Lux as anything but understanding to Sylas, I wanted see Lux tell him that she still has a hard time trusting him- since he did put her in a very dangerous situation when she was simply trying to help him- but still acknowledge that it was his only option. That- after months of hearing horror stories from fellow mages firsthand (who weren't shielded by their status as she was) and being for the first time on the receiving end of the mageseeker's fanaticism and violence- it was naive of her to think she could have successfully stopped his execution on her own (because it was) and that she gets why he did it and is still glad he wasn't killed. It would have been a good character moment for both of them I think, for Sylas' "I don't regret living" line to be met with "neither do I". Unfortunately that’s just not the Lux we got. Wake me up when her privileged Crownguard ass no longer has the audacity to whine an escaped mage’s ear off for using violence and instantly jump at the chance to whitewash her family despite holding herself up as a revolutionary. Also I wish they would stop doing my girl Shyvana dirty. I resent the implication that she returned to Jarvan the second he stopped persecuting mages so much. She’s written like she doesn’t have a single thought in her head. She deserves so much better, please Riot stop making her fawn over the douche without even giving her any reason to.
Yeah, that's my issue too. She is pissed off at Sylas for...breaking out and saving his life because it forced her out of hiding and made her leave her family. However, Sylas isn't the one keeping her away from her family --- her family would either murder her or do nothing while she is sentenced to death. Sylas didn't make them that way. So I'd like it more if Lux started her little "My life is ruined" rant but ultimately ended it with "...and what is worse, I can't even be angry at you because it's not your fault!", signifying that she ultimately understands why Sylas did what he did, but at the same time she is scared, conflicted and coming to terms that she can't go back. She can still refuse to join forces with him because she only decided to protect the mages who can't/don't want to fight, and she isn't sure she is ready to participate in a violent rebellion, especially if it means facing Garen. Also, Garen is entirely at fault because he was the one who arranged for Sylas' execution in the first place -- JUST BECAUSE Lux started confiding in him. But Lux isn't mad at him for trying to kill her friend? I'm kinda glad that at least she jabbed at Garen's pride by saying "If you truly were the protector of the weak", but I wish she told him off more. Like, all that time helping mages and hearing their stories made her less worried about "What if my family hates me?" and helped her guess that Garen KNEW she was a mage --- so in her speech to Garen, she points out that all those mages he helped persecute were someone's sisters, brothers, mothers, and fathers too, she wasn't any different from them, and she is tired of being kept safe while somewhere a family never gets to see their daughter again. (EDIT: As for Shyvana...I really wish they didn't retcon her lore, the one where she was born to a couple of dragons but looked human due to a mage tampering with the egg. The idea of her having a dad dragon who accepted her and loved her, and protected her with his life is super cool -- while the idea that her mother hated her and tried to destroy her just for being born different perfectly explains why Shyvana stayed around J4 and Demacians for so long. First of all, J4 helped her avenge her father and offered her a place to stay -- so Shyvana felt like she found the place where she was wanted and needed. So, she is thankful to J4 and values that he likes her for what she is. But back then, J4 was written as a gigachad who initially met Shyvana when he exiled himself to the wilds of Demacia for intense training to regain his confidence after Noxian capture, so we can't have that anymore XD )
I think on garend part it is understandable ? Like for the most part garen is not even in the country. That guy is about 20 years old, born and raised to be a commander in the army. He has 2 focus points. Protect the family and SERVE. I mean look at the American army and the glorification of military service. Second: garen is part of the vanguard, meaning mostly he fight against noxus, no ? Further, it was explained that the mageseeker basically acted on their own accord, experimenting. Marvin himself seemed convinced that they were locked up and that’s it. For me this simply shows garens youth and insecurity, masked by the image of the trained soldier. Garen did not actively partake in g*nocide against HER people. That’s the whole point. There is no her people or his people. He noticed it and did not act the same way Lux did not act until she was forced to. And in the comics garen actively lets her escape with other mages, preventing their execution. Idk this game paints a very simple story of some frat boys with 1 dimensional motives and insecurities while the mages appear to be the only real characters
@@Roxas1996Simon Garen was shown assisting Mageseekers who pursued a runaway mage. He was so eager to catch her, he destroyed a piece of building. So, while Garen isn't a Magesseeker, he will kill or catch any mage he comes across. Also, he was the one to show Lux how mages were treated in prison -- locked to rot until they die of old age, forced to drink poison -- while claiming it was necessary "to same them from themselves", which was a big fat lie. If Garen truly believed that Mageseekers were doing it to cure the mages, that it was even possible, he wouldn't have objected to Lux being treated, right? But no, he flexes his status in any way he can to hide her from Mageseekers --- because he KNOWS that mages are slowly killed off in those prisons. He just chooses not to think much about it -- in the "For Demacia" tale, he himself admitted that he doesn't care about nuances because nuances may shatter his ideology and resolve, which he can't afford. So, just like he didn't have any pity for a man who was made to kill his family by Nocturne, he never cared or felt pity for mages dying in prisons -- and he would kill thousands more without batting an eye. He may not have known the full extent of things Mageseekers were doing to mages, he may not have known about the experiments, but he KNEW that mages go to dungeons to die or to basically be enslaved (after all, he didn't even entertain the thought of Lux working for Mageseekers like Wisteria did, which means he knew that Wisteria was broken and brainwashed). And he didn't care. Also, no mages ARE his people. They're citizens of Demacia. People of Demacia. Unless Garen's oath had lines like "...unless they're mages. If they're mages, fuck them", these mages are also the people Garen swore to protect. Which makes his hypocrisy and inaction even worse than Lux's. Plus, as for just a soldier, Garen commands a lot of power: he orders Sylas' execution without any prior tribunal or procedures just because he didn't like his sister talking to Syals, and the Crownguard estate lady isn't surprised that Garen would send an assassin to keep an eye on Lux and "make sure there is no noise". So, Garen has influence and isn't above using it when he needs it -- while countless other people without his privilege lose their family members and loved ones to Mageseekers. So, Garen wasn't "just following orders" or "obeying laws" he was working his way around laws when they inconvenienced him personally, which is another blatant example of hypocrisy. Which is why I think that Lux should have called him out on all that, WHILE admitting that she, too, was a coward and a hypocrite, but she is doing something about it right here, right now -- and if being a Crownguard means letting countless other people suffer and die just to protect the public image or provide special treatment for family members, then she is no longer a Crownguard.
There may have been a way to write Jarvan and Garen as possibly forgivable, but the game portrayed them so convincingly as complicit that they pulled a punch against someone we really wanted to see punched.
I guess what I personally lacked was them getting hit by the weight of all the atrocities they committed and allowed to happen. Garen participated in capturing runaway mages. He LITERALLY gave Lux a tour around the dungeons, where she saw mages locked up and forced to drink poison (given that he KNEW that his sister was a mage, it was beyond fucked up). In the tale "For Demacia" it was also hinted that Garen was perfectly aware that Demacians were too harsh on those they condemned as criminals. In the tale, Lux saw an execution of a man who killed his entire family because Nocturne messed with his mind and made him see his wife and kids as monsters. Even when it became clear that the man was just a victim of a demon, Garen doesn't feel sorry for him because he still sees him as a murderer who paid the price, and he even states that Demacians "don't need the nuance" because it will make them vulnerable to threats. And that explained why he allowed all those horrible things to happen -- he knew what they were doing was wrong ALL THE TIME, but he CHOSE not to think much about it. I wish the game elaborated more on that aspect: how Garen admits that he used to rationalize all the horrible things he did and believe it was necessary to stay strong; how he realizes that, in fact, it didn't make him strong, it made him weak and blind to real threats -- and it also cost him his family. Same with J4. His realization of his treatment of mages could've dawned on him not only due to Shyvana leaving but also because he realized that mages *didn't* kill his father and that Noxians did it, using Demacia's anti-mage policies against it to cover their tracks and spread chaos. He realizes that all that time in his bitterness and anger, he was assisting the real enemy while hurting his own citizens. Moreover, he sees that the damage is done -- by encouraging Mageseekers, he caused too much of a rift between mages and non-mages, and now Demacia is weaker for it. It will take years to undo the harm -- and with Noxus being ready to topple the fragile balance, the task is highly complicated. And *he* only has *himself* to blame.
I think there’s still that underlying fear of fully casting them (two champions frequently marketed as good guys) as the villains Especially Garen who’s basically the poster boy hero man of Demacia and to an extent, League of Legends as a whole
Garen should have just been portrayed as a super hero. Someone so completely for his king and country that he cannot see another way. That way he could redeemed by coming to realize that mages are actually a boon to Demacia. That they can't ignore magic in a magical world, nor can they suppress it. The way Garen would live with himself after realizing he stifled Demacia, killed people, and hurt his family all on a false premise would be like this; Silent acceptance. Garen doesn't seem to know how to process a lot of emotions. But he knows, intuitively, what is right (that's what you'd really lean into). So if someone called him a monster, he would silently agree from now on. This way he's still an antagonist, still a hero, still repentant. All things you want out of a continued story. Now Sylas... Good lord. He's not in the wrong at all. Which is fuggin weird for a guy who wants to kill every single character in Demacia, a place known for fighting of the horror that is Noxus. I think Sylas should have realized his rebellion, his full scale subjugation of Demacia isn't actually good for literally everyone. A pivot in the lore would achieve the 'two-side-ed-ness' they were... barely hinting at a million years ago. And it's simply this, Sylas wants to destroy everything anti-magic in Demacia, but Demacia really IS a bastion from magic. It's the one place that is quite safe from random magical nuclear bombs dropping on people's heads. And the things he's doing will free all mages, but pretty well and set mundane folk into a terrible place. Just make their fear well-founded. Something for Sylas to realize eventually. I mean, he literally made everyone see that mageseekers were created on falsehoods, and everyone in Demacia heard about the mageseekers doubling down and trying for immediate public executions. ... And J4 endorsed them implicitly two seconds ago... Like. This isn't complex. The entire SOCIETY should hate J4 now. Idk what they were thinking writing this. But tbf, idk what they were thinking when making Sylas originally. I mean everyone was looking forward to Demacian lore, since Riot makes jackshit-all for that region, and they decide its wholly irredeemably evil. And so is every character participating in it. I know they always said Demacia aren't the good guys. They always said that just because they fight Noxus doesn't mean they don't have shady thing going on, but good lord. And I just want to point out that Lux is a piece of garbage too. Just because she isn't a mouth breathing neandermoron like her brother, doesn't mean she good at all. Sylas should have killed her too. But then you might find yourself thinking, "why is one character so RIGHT in killing literally everyone he meets?". And then I think you have to realize you made some really bad decisions with story telling at point.
@@LastFrostman the thing is, it's hard to achieve "both sides are right, both sides are wrong" in this scenario because mages have never been a threat to Demacia. They also fled from Rune Wars because they weren't immune to magic nukes. They used petricite for magic purposes due to its ability to store magic energy -- and nobody had an issue with that. Most of the common folk has mage relatives, who are just like them, but can heal wounds or make crops grow, which is actually good for the country. There is no downside to stopping mage persecution. What could have been emphasized in the story is that while Demacia goes hard on mages, it does next to nothing about demons who prey on people. Petricite does jack shit to stop them -- Nocturne had fun at Fossbarrow, and Evelynn invited herself into one of the Demacian mansions where she tortured and murdered its owners. Fiddlesticks is also prowling around Demacia, unrestricted. Demacia is NOT safe; it needs mages to protect itself from magical threats.
That last scene in the final boss fight was so gorgeously animated and I love the visual references between Kayle and Morgana's ideals/ powers clashing against each other.
41:10 oh no I thought I wouldn't cry again about this but LEILANI'S SPIRIT PUTS HER HAND ON SYLAS IN SUPPORT 😭 just as voice over says "their actions may have altered the lives of only a few, but stand to change many more" BECAUSE SHE'S THE ONE THAT TOOK ACTION TO REACH OUT TO SYLAS AND ALTER HIS LIFE SO HE COULD DO THE SAME TO OTHERS 😭it's such a simple visual storytelling trick but I'm a SUCKER for it. Leilani needs to be in the main lore
@@GoldLight73 wall, I now have the notion of a Viego-focused harem anime stuck in my head and will have to live with this cursed knowledge in this life and the next…
@@GoldLight73 Surrounded by hot people begging for the D while he blindly chases after the one character who wants nothing to do with him. Yeah. Sounds like a set up for 26 episodes of frustration and no resolution. So a perfect harem series.
34:07 "Rayn... She needs help" being the last words of Wisteria before she turns into ash from inside out is. damn. still kind of punches me, not going to lie. like, all of this indoctrination that ruined her emotionally and socially as a person, that fueled her anger and the need to exercise control against those she believed were wronging people around her - and the one things she truly wanted was to keep a child, so much like herself, safe. despite the fact that this could be a reading of "this marginalised character gets the blame shifted onto them to have a cool boss battle"... I really liked Wisteria. she's complicated in a way how one is manipulated by propaganda, which feels almost religious in its fervour, abused by the social rules and the people who saw her as a tool, and *experiment* like Hesbeth did. fight with her, in the end, is how Sylas could've ended up - blindly believing in propaganda, not helping the people around him, not surrounding himself with those who better him. Rayn is a bridge towards that possible future - one that, unfortunately, the combination of that absolute belief in propaganda and the chemically altered magic control of her body took away from Wisteria. wish we had more time with her and many other new characters in this game. thank you for this playthrough once again. I thoroughly enjoyed this, surprisingly for me, since I didn't expect Sylas and his story, from your previous discussions of him, to hit me as hard as they did. looking forward to the post-game video about the plot and characters, if you're able to make it! 💛
I felt slightly less bad about forgiving garen, because when his line was crossed he decided to go down there and put his own life on the line and take on the Mageseeker army to save lux and the other mages. If not for that last scene where he went "okay are we killing sylas now?" i might be able to see a redemption arc, but that line just comes across so boneheaded stupid to the point of bad writing. When Jarvan has his personal line crossed he just mopes around "woe is me my waifu left me 😢" You had an EXPRESS ORDER from the FATHER YOU LOOK UP TO SO MUCH with STOP THE GENOCIDE written on it in BOLD LETTERS and you decided "Ehhh thats probably not important. Toodaloo off to start killing again!" J4, you get the adventure time glittery facist sign out of 10, get the fuck out of my sight.
Leagues better than the Lux comic, but the way the conflict was handled still leaves much to be desired. At some point Riot will have to realize that no one forced them to write about such a heavy topic. If they wanted Garen or Jarvan to still be characters we can root for, they should have considered that BEFORE making them uphold and participate in a g*nocide. Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too with this subject matter. Better luck with the re-writes now that you are trying to build a canon, I guess.
I thought the ending was good, even though it ended up being a bit Disney. I understand that garen and jarvan did things that are unforgivable, but in the context of an almost medieval fantasy world, I can see how they could still be viewed as redeemable. I loved watching the series and hope you had alot of fun! I really hope we get more games like this in the other regions
Yeah, while they were involved in all this i think his take on Jarvan and Garen is a bit harsh. Unforgivable is a harsh word, if something is unforgivable there is no reason to stop doing it.
@@perfectdoll4112 To be clear, I do think what they did is completely evil and immoral. I just think that in the setting, I can see why other characters would be willing to forgive them, because it is such a high body-count world
A lot of what the mageseekers did was on their own, I don’t think either had much to do with the horrible things Hesbeth did and we saw how long it took to push Jarvan to unjust executions and even then it only lasted like one day before he went back on it. Yes he was horrible here but it’s mostly not his fault at least if you ask me.
@@chainsawboy2388 he sanctioned a genocide.he destroyed his father's letter to free the mages. It doesn't matter if its a "light" genocide. He was putting people in what were basically concentration camps. Yes he is definitely as guilty as Eldrad or hesbeth. Garen only slightly less so because he's a himbo idiot
Yeah. Aside from hoping for Jarvan and Garen having more consequence for their past atrocities, everything was good. Plus, it fill in the gap for the question as to why they were somewhere in Freljord in the music video and why was Lux able to use her magic so openly in front of the soldiers. Also, I love that Demacia is slowly moving forward from the mages having to hide and suffer. Now, the only big event left for Demacia is Morgana vs Kayle. I wonder if we'll ever get that.
Honestly it's a small miracle that this game *basically* everything stayed Lore-Accurate 100%? Maybe there are small elements that don't perfectly line-up but it's never possible to do. Like on twitter Q&A they said this game was concepted basically since Sylas' release day, and started development 4 years ago. And despite that everything was kept in the boundries of current canon. The biggest thing I can think if is Wiseria resemblence to Kayle despite it being quite unlikely she is actually blessed by Kayle. But I atribute this to more of a symbolic choice to give her Kayle form that something she actually has as abilities cuz it just matches so well. Kayle and Morgana fight over brutal execution of the law (here: Wisteria is basically brain-washed to hate mages despite being one herself) and redemption (Which is explored more in-depth with Sylas going from this revenge-seeking bloodthirsty person to more reasonable one with 2 encounters he has with Morgana). It just makes more sense as Symbolic choice I reckon and im perfectly content with that cuz it fits so well. Besides that, I feel so much more at peace than I did after Ruined King didnt line up with anything that Ruination even fucked up before it (it wasn't Ruined Kings game fault but it felt a bitter taste in my mouth for sure)
There's definitely way more mageseekers casting spells at you than there would be under normal circumstances, but it makes sense considering they needed people for Sylas to steal spells from as it's his main game mechanic.
@@astranger934 Same with graple points and boss abilities - like I doubt Jarvan actually makes wall as he jumps or even giant helmets that cast different spells. Some elements are purely to serve the gameplay.
well half of what happened in the ruination isn't canon anymore anyway, Ruined King also happens around a year in the timeline before the ruination. But in regards to Shyvana, Ruined Shyvana (at least with how it was presented) is without a doubt no longer canon.
I mean there’s like four different versions of arise of the Sentinels, but I’m pretty sure Ruined Shyvana still happened. It’s just the finer details that are unclear.
@@GoldLight73 When riot released their response to the SoL backlash they made sure to not to name any champions that got ruined or became sentinels in order to not trap themselves into a corner with how they use the champions in the future. Atm only Sentinels Vayne and Graves are 100% canon, while Olaf is implied to have done "something" during that time period. We know this cause of LoR and short stories released fro them. Shyvana and Riven have continuity issues, and everyone else went back to where they were before it started. We'll see how Riot handles it with future stories, but atm its kinda just something they want to sweep under the rug as much as they can.
Just want to throw my hat in the ring here. Skyen, you did a wonderful job pointing out the clear metaphor for LGBTQIA+ people in this game/story. The big problem I had with the ending, the parts trying to show that "Hey! J4 and Garen can still be heroes even after being complicit and active participants in this genocide! You can forgive them eventually, and they can still hold positions of power and be trusted!" reads as totally inappropriate to the the metaphor at hand. I'm only speaking from the perspective of a trans man, but this can be applied to any marginalized/oppressed people. If we are to see ourselves in the rebellion, then the message at the end (if we are to take that lesson to the real world) is exactly as you said: the people who participated in this can never be trusted again in a position of power over the people they helped genocide. We shouldn't forgive these people, and we shouldn't trust them, even if they say sorry over and over. The trust can't be there again. I understand (like you said at the end) that the game can only go so far because of the limitations, these characters still have to read as heroes in their story. But it just feels like such a shortfall in the end if LGBTQIA+ people like myself are following the metaphor closely. The games themes also felt impeccably timed for our community, given everything that's been happening. Love your work, keep it up :)) Can't wait to watch Tears of the Kingdom.
They turned Sylas into a blorbo but I honestly don't mind it. It makes his current voicelines in game feel a bit awkward though, because now having seen that he in fact, has the capacity to be nice to people, it makes the smugness that like we're supposed to associate w him a little weird if that even makes sense lmfao. I find it hard to reconcile personally but that is in fact, just a personal thing. Sylas is so silly, love him.
The Sylas in rift is the Sylas who just broke from the chains. Full of hate etc. He had character development in this game. He is after all, a human who was wronged
As much as this story has been so so much of an improvement over the way Sylas has been depicted so far, it is still disappointed to have the ending constrained like this. Like man I keep thinking of how cool it would have been for Lux to have her own journey through this where she gets radicalized, instead of just being basically the same boring centrist at the end. It would have been a nice counterpart to Sylas's arc - he learns how to care about people again, and she learns that sometimes you have to fight the people you used to love.
Me, finishing episode 10: No, I need more! Episode 11, came out 1 hour before: YES! Me, finishing episode 11: NO. I. need. MORE. Episode 12, uploaded 16 minutes ago: YEEEEESSSSSSS. This game is good! :D
How would you feel if Jarvan had a similar treatment that sylas had at the beginning of the game, where he just wants revenge? What if instead of being actively complicit, he was closer to a puppet under Eldred's influence and had to be convinced that Sylas didn't kill his J3 before he realized what the mageseekers were doing and started dismantling their stranglehold on power? Would that be enough to make that ending of his storyline specifically good, or at least tolerable?
@@chiefpurrfect8389 I'm not trying to change that aspect of the story, but the status of Jarvan of a heroic character, even though he is in the side of the atrocities being commited.
Honestly that wouldn't be enough. If anybody can be convinced of a genocide of any kind, their moral compass is fucked. Sure he can strive from redemption, but he can also do that outside of the throne
@@zyibesixdouze4863 And especially so when he has the power and authority to prevent it. It's one thing for "Jim, the guy who lays paving stones" to be pro-genocide. It's entirely another for "Jarvan, the guy who has to sign the laws into effect" to be pro-genocide. Both are evil. But only one is proactively making that evil manifest.
46:54 Just a little fix there, but I think it's important to mention - Adolf Eichmann WASN'T sorry for his actions. His only regret was not finishing what he started.
The issue is and always has been that Riot has wanted their cake and to eat it too. Riot wants Sylas as the Demacian villain, but he's also representing the Mages and the way they're actually mistreated. Jarvan IV and Garen are Demacian heroes, but since Demacia does a Bad With Mages they have to be complicit in it because of their positioning. Which means you have to pick a path, you have to choose which it's going to be. And Riot wont they'll say Both and Neither. And like... the follow up to this story is "Then Sylas goes to the Freljord and joins up with the Winter's Claw to murder Demacia." Leading to the Warrior trailer. Okay so now we've take the position that Sylas is a villain, that the point of this game is even if Demacia can change, Sylas refuses to see it. We're running into what I call the 13th Black Crusade conundrum (before Games Workshop finally pulled the fucking trigger on that) which is that we're establishing all these points where things can go and just refusing to move past it. Because MOST NARRATIVES MOVE FORWARD. Like this is canonically before Warriors 2021, so is Garen: First Shield, which is also mid-this after this? Then there's the Lux Comic which was supposed to cover These Exact Events and now the Katarina comic doing the same and the more we try to look at this the more fucked it is because See now we're going to wait for this Noxus invasion that'll come in the next 10 years maybe depends on what happens and meanwhile they wont commit to anything, so Sylas is still the Demacian "Villain", At this point, they've fucked the Demacia storyline because they've never moved past Sylas and they've let Sylas define the nation. Like what do we know about Demacia? Jarvan III is killed, Mageseekers, Bad. They wanted their goody nation to have a dark past because Shades of Grey but fucked it in that nothing exists beyond Sylas. Like Imagine if you're a fan of a Demacian champion and you don't like Sylas or don't care for this plot, what the fuck has been given to you?
i'm a bit late but for me the game had made it clear that garen wasn't okay with the genocide idea? he tells jarvan he can't just kill any mages he comes across. i really like the game and how it pushes the story forward but some league characters were done dirty. the garen from the first shield novel feels like an entirely different character from the one in this game, and it's such a shame because he is an actual good character there. i feel like this game wasn't really thought to develop jarvan, garen or shyvana, which is okay because it's sylas' game but it's still unfair to these other characters.
I’m trying to think of how J4 and Garen can be redeemed. Cause we know this is where they want to push this story, and like you said, death is probably not an option. But I don’t know if anything else short of Sylas beating them and overthrowing the nobles. I don’t think anything else will suffice. Idk, let me know if there’s something else. Maybe they can die if/when Swain and/or LeBlanc and/or Sejuani decide to take Demacia on and they do the stereotypical sacrifice for their nation. Idk I’m also trying to think of how they can explain the absence of some ppl. Specifically Xin Zhao. Fiora’s a noble, but her story never tied into anything. Dunno if that’s a good or bad thing. Sona and her adopted mom left after Lord Buvelle’s death, I believe. Think they were heading to Ionia, I don’t remember. Your explanation for Quinn last episode makes sense. So too Galio’s. Lucian’s Demacian, but is barely associated with it. Figured Vayne might be an antagonist, but she might just be off somewhere else. Also, I think this happens before she became a Sentinel, so she probably would have had her default look… might be a good thing she wasn’t in it, I guess. And Poppy’s off doing things outside Demacia or in Bandle City, who knows. Lastly, Lux. I like how she’s taking it upon herself to take care of the mages and is now governor for a mage safe haven, but I also like your analysis on not seeing others for the atrocities they’ve done since she’s still part of that group. Maybe the brief interaction with Kat is leading to something that will detach herself from the nobles, maybe it’s nothing. Just wanted to point that out.
I don't really think that Garen actually killed anyone here, though. I thought the story was trying to tell how Jarvan in his anger gave over pretty much all of the power to the mageseekers, exacerbated by Wisteria's cunning. I do not think that Jarvan really knew about the experiments, as he seems to think that prisons for mages are just like normal prisons, sort of like the situation in the Dragon Prince (IDK if you heard about that show but basically some dude seized power from the young king just a little bit after he was coronated in a plot line spanning a few episodes.), or Mussolini taking power in Italy by gaining way too much power over the current ruler, y'know what I mean? But I digress. I'd really like to know where Garen killed someone or tried to kill someone that is not named Sylas, as it was the mageseekers that were doing all the prosecuting and killing, not him. Of course, I don't think he did anything to stop the mageseekers before joining Lux, and complacency is bad of course, but it is not as extreme as actively committing genocide. I do not think that Garen is irredeemable because of this, nor do I think he is a hyprocrite, but if you do have examples and links for evidence that he was actively committing genocide I will change my mind. Jarvan needs to be out of the throne, though. I think his quote about not wanting to be king probably foreshadows him stepping down or being imprisoned after Sylas wins. As for Lux, she wasn't really there for the discovery of the experiments, and because the execution decree was declared after Wisteria took command of the mageseekers, plus the fact that Wisteria seemed coocoo wanting to kill her entire city, she thinks that the mageseekers are the real puppet masters and the true perpetrators behind the genocide. I don't know if she will find out about the experiments and stuff, but I don't think she will, because I don't think Jarvan knew that either, as the mageseekers are a shady organization, maybe sort of like a parallel to Noxus and the black rose where the ruling party(?) (albeit Swain knows LeBlanc's power and influence and is ready) doesn't know a lot of what is going on behind their backs. Just my two cents, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
@@awesomel4206 You are correct in everything you said except for Sylas winning, as it stands there is almost no chance he wins because mages are gonna have peace so most will no longer want to fight. The game makes sure to clearly point the blame at the Mageseekers, and they are gone now. The idea that Jarvan needs to immediately step down is also ridiculous as there is literally no systems in place for people to rule the nation, which would put everything into anarchy. He also isn't gonna step down regardless as from the games perspective they paint him as redeemable and has Lux and Shyvana to help him. Also the execution decree was almost instantly stopped and repealed, so its once again the game keeping all blame on the mageseekers.
@@HydraneousHadokenPent-Striker Yeah, I guess so, but I do have to wonder if the Warriors animation was the sequel to this, as Sylas was leading a group of Frejlordian(spelling:() warriors and facing down Lux and Garen. I think he could possibly have the personnel available, but public sentiment could rapidly shift against him and his group due to the destruction on innocents (mages and non mages) the Winter's Claw will surely inflict, as well as the fact that they are enemies of Demacia. I also said that perhaps Jarvan might step down in the future, as I mentioned foreshadowing, not right now. About the execution decree, I think it has been a few days or something that it has been running, so there definitely has been some number of killings. Also side note, are you happy that the game clearly points at the mageseekers being the problem? Bc that's in the lore now, and I assume you're fine with it, but you keep mentioning it, so just to make sure, are you fine with it?
@@awesomel4206 I am very happy with the mageseekers being the problem. I personally wasn't a fan of the mage plotline to begin with. It was stuck in limbo for years, so i'm happy its over. Luckily the game gave it a pretty good conclusion.
@@HydraneousHadokenPent-Striker First of all, thank you for answering my question. I was interested to see how the plot line will turn out, but it seemed like Riot tried a little too hard to push Demacia into the gray zone, ultimately making them borderline genocidal, and I am glad that even though they made Demacia a genocidal through the corruption of the mageseekers in this game, it wasn't for too long and the culprit was clear. How do you feel about 2BSkyen's take on this, though, as he seems to think that Jarvan initiated the atrocities and you do not support that I assume.
To respond to the Afterthoughts from credits and beyond: Sadly (or not sadly?) I dont think Riot can never go beyond *that*. - Like I dont see logical problem with them killing off champion-characters. Lore is all over the place timelines wise so even in the event where they want to do lore for that character still, it can still expand at different point in timeline. In better case, Lore is never rly expanded with many crossovers between champions so it's completely plausible for champion-character to die for the sake of the story without breaking absolutely anything lore-wise. League of Legends, the Game has never cared about the lore less so who would care if X champion died.. it doesnt affect it. - Likewise I dont see logical problem with them actually vilifying characters like Jarvan. Leagues Champion-Characters already include some undeniable, not redeemable villains among them - most notably tilte character of previous Riot Forge title - Viego. Jarvan and Garen were invented as characters long before entire plotline with mage opression for Demacia was a thing. Why would it be not possible for it to happen? It's incredibly unlikely, true, but it's entirely possible and it again, wouldnt affect league's IP in any harmful way to the company of Riot. - Sadly, it would probably take some balls from people in power at Riot to accept such change cuz change to IP is always somewhat scary so we will probably never see it.. but logically there is nothing preventing it from being the case besides that, right? Characters could be killed off cuz it wouldnt affect other league IP projects in the slightest. Characters can ve villains, and some of the best characters to come out from riot IP are villains: Like I doubt anybody will argue that Jhin is 'too evil' to be good character. Viego despite being extremely harmed by Ruination Summer Event is still great as a story in a vaccum. Silco is still my fav character from Arcane.. I dont think it would be too far fetched for Jarvan to lose the war with Sylas in a long run and having to be exiled or something to atone for atrocities of the past that cant be undone. For Garen OR Lux to die for the sake of another one's story. *Sadly it would take something that Riot managment themselves will not approve** despite technically not harming their universe in any way
Riot really tries not to vilify anyone these days. Aside from exceptions like Jhin (literal serial killer), Evelynn (a demon), or Tahm Kench (another demon), writers give a humanizing background for almost everyone, including even Katarina, who used to be a cold-blooded, ruthless, and sadistic killer.
@@pokerface4396 They are not mutually exclusive. "Bad cuz Bad" is boring unless executed properly and it's not like Jarvan and Garen here are breaking something. Like Skyen said in outro - in universe their actions are exactly what you'd expect from them as characters, they arent rly badly written. The worst offence they commit as to 'me - person learning of their story through reading or this game' is that we are denied this Catharsis moment where they are punished for their wrongdoings. Redemption like one jarvan got completely passable and reasonable from his pov as character to fail to realise greater picture as privileged but we as readers simply dont get the sense of finality out if it. And I believe there is nothing 'technical' stopping riot from giving us this sense. It wont break their universe for future, it wont affect their other projects rn.. but sadly Riot Forge is left to play only within status quo boundries.
I mean I think part of the issue is that the champions aren't just characters - they're power fantasies sold to the audience, and I'd argue that you're kind of expected to identify with them as part of your identity within the community. Like, there's a reason there's entire subreddits dedicated to Garen mains or Jarvan mains, there's a reason people get upset whenever their main gets overlooked in favour of the 10 millionth Lux skin. People have deep investment in these characters and the power fantasies they promise. And that raises an issue when it comes to character development, because if you develop a character too far from their original conception, it risks flying in the face of their established power fantasy. Like yeah, there's evil champs like Mordekaiser or Viego, but we knew they were evil from day one. That's part of their power fantasy. It's a different issue when it's a character like Jarvan or Garen who were traditionally portrayed as good and noble... until Demacia was recontextualised into a genocidal dictatorship and suddenly they're both complicit in genocide. I imagine that would have been kind of huge slap in the face for Jarvan and Garen fans, kinda like the feeling of paying (in emotional investment) for a product that turned out to be something wildly different than what you paid for. That's also why I think Riot is afraid of killing off champions - there's the fear that engagement with the lore from that champion's mains will steeply drop if they just went "This champion is dead, their story has concluded, and there will be no more story for them ever again." For the record I think the idea of a story where Jarvan falls into a tragic descent into villainy, while Garen is forced to actually reject Demacia in favour of protecting his sister would have been a great story. But for the above mentioned purposes, I think Riot believes Garen has to remain the Demacia poster boy and Jarvan has to remain the flawed but ultimately noble king/prince.
@@cartoonishidealism582 I kinda understand what you're alluding to but characters like Jarvan were already transformed into those evil version of what they originaly were the moment Sylas was released years ago. In this game, they are acting as villains too and seems like this is not the problem. Jarvan already is in big part responsible for shit going on in demacia at least since Lux comic which was years ago. So that "Slap to the face for X champion fans" has already happened and world didnt explode for them as far as Im aware. So the barrier of what they are willing to do in-universe is somewhere deeper than this... and it's with paying off those established themes. And about character deaths - I'd argue that I predict people who even know the latest lore of their favorite champions is not as big as you might expect. And I dont think progressing character stories somehow strips them of what they once in the story, were. Sadly there is not rly any good argument I can make FOR making those choices cuz Status Quo of nothing changing is 100% fail-proof. Only simlar thing of bold choices is still a semi-cowardly one of Burning Tides event when GP was basically dethroned by MF and fake-killed. And I wasnt playing league then but currently I think memory of this event is as one of the best lore-events progressions in history. Also some champions reworks kept their old lore canon and progressed on it. Pantheon is no longer being a god of war, and most recent lore is in jarring contrast to what he used to be.
@@baxland2539 But isnt that something shown in the epilogue already? Clearly Riot do NOT want to show them as villains, that is why they do the redeeming move. So I am a bit confused about your question. Do you mean "Why Riot still not want to show them as villains"? Because the answer is like CartoonishIdealism said, that is not the fantasy initally sold to Garen/Jarvan mains. If not, then there is a real chance that your sense of value and Riot's is different. What to you read as "completely unredeemable villainous acts" is to them "a mistake committed by a flaw but ultimately good person".
I wonder if riot forge games will be generally more progresive then typical lol content (since they come from smaller developers), like compeared to even arcena this was a plesent suprise, and I don't even mind them making Sylas a bit too much of a teady bear, because if they later want to come back to his story they can't pretend anymore that he is an unresonabel moster.
What's the count on people who have committed or partook in genocide in League? Jarvan Garen Vayne Xin-Zhao Leona Swain Singed Riven Darius Draven Azir Renekton Nasus I was lenient on a bunch of champs who would still be considered mass murderers, but I don't think it would be specifically genocide (like Mordekaiser). They kill indiscriminately. Also, I think a lot of other Noxian champs could fit into this, but I'm only counting those I know for certain were present in the invasion of Ionia. To be honest, not sure if this was more or less than what I was expecting.
@@pokerface4396 Vayne is a scarred person that saw her parents be killed in front of her by a demon [Evelynn] (just like the Batman, that she is a representation of). Because of that, she hates anything that is magical and has no empathy for mages, yordles and such, be they evil or not.
@@jeffmadmastermind3907 Thank you. Vayne is my favorite character, so I know that part of her bio -- I initially loved how the writers didn't pull any punched with showing how her trauma affected her, and I liked how she became that Punisher kind of a hunter for evil creatures and demons. What I don't like, is that Riot started showing her as "hates magic, evil or not". Like, the first Ruined King trailer made it clear that it wasn't the initial idea since Vayne teamed up with Poppy, and they stayed partners even after thwarting a threat. So, she certainly wasn't against all magical creatures. She was even shown to have empathy towards the turned victims of monsters as she took her time to bully the monster just so she would feel as helpless, deceived, and toyed with as her last victim did. There was a dangerous, visceral edge to her character, but there also was something else that made her interesting. But Riot decided to simplify things and go "hurr durr revenge bad".
@@pokerface4396 Well, her reaction to Poppy is one of the many inconsistences that the ruined king event has. There is, for exemple, the version of Vayne that not even become a light sentinel, cuz she dont trust "their magic weapons". She only help Lucian and Senna during their time on Demacia and then she leaves.
I'm pretty sure Garen doesn't actually kill anyone in this game? He stands by and watches like a big dumb idiot, but I don't think he actually does any murdering? Well except during the defense of the mage camp, where we see him kill one mutated mage. Jarvan did in fact order mage executions, but Garen kept missing his ult.
Garen has been killing and capturing mages before Sylas broke out. He isn't a Mageseeker, but he would do his part if he happens to come across a runaway mage.
I think they gave the story some much needed depth. And it was a beautiful game, reminds me of Monkey Island and Heart of Darkness with the animation of the pixels
I think what could be done with Jarvan and Garen is that they could be dethroned and sylas succeeds and they are forced into exile and help that serve to be a reality check for what went on under them and their actions/inactions. Have Jarvan realize that he isn’t worthy to be king and decides to leave Demacia completely and just become a roaming disgraced king trying to do penance by never having power and roaming around runeterra to do good by everyone but himself and garen may follow him or split from him and find his own path. They can become heroic but they need to have their true fall and foil to do so.
"The approach to difficulty seems to be just throwing more dudes" Yeah, if only there was some sort of mode that made your attacks bigger and gave you access to a big aoe spell, and the more dudes you hit the faster it builds up. I think the game would have been way better if such a mode existed...
I've found you by one of your tiktoks, don't remember about who was. Anyways, good thing I did! I absolutely enjoyed this PT, your commentary and ideas about politics and character writing. I just have to finish the extra one and that'd be it. Until we meet again!
Honestly watching your let's plays of the game was fun to see. This game actually made me like Sylus and made him a better character (To me he was too much of a guy who just wanted to hurt people for the sake of hurting them. That was my read on the guy and I'm glad they actually addressed that in this game and made him see the mistakes he made and had him grow). As for Jarhvan and Garen, well I disagree with you only slightly. I think they can get some redemption, BUT (and this is the important part) I do agree with you that they should never, EVER hold any form of power ever again. I do agree the honorable thing to do is to abdicate, and I do agree with you about Sylus' speech at the end there. Honestly I would be glad to join his side over the others. Bring democracy to Demacia.
Yops skin for Poppy? The weapon silhouette is the main visual distinction and her big pole-sword could be modelled with a close enough silhouette to fit.
I don't quite know how canon this is. I would prefer to see this game as the "Sylas view". Because from the Lux comic i get a different Garen vibe at least. And i am pretty sure Xin Zhao would also not let Jarvan deal with this situation and probably stop him at the point where he orders non trial executions. The whole genocide part eggs me, as we know from a short story that parts of the main city are already quite against the Mageseekers. Maybe this is just how Sylas and the Rebels expect the conversation to go ? Like honeslty it would make more sense for garen, as a simple military elite commander, to not even be involved in politics AT ALL. While jarvan just takes the throne and give the whole control to Garens uncle the Mageseeker Leader, missing out and actually not caring for the treatment of the mages, as he believes they murdered his father who wanted to free them PLUS burned down half of the city, quite willing to injure civilians. So not only would they be unaware and quite young, but their perspective would be more believable. And garen should not act as if he had only one braincell. He even helped mages / let them escape in the comic. Like common.
Ummmm...there's a bit of fridge horror here. Remember the story Shackles of Belief? Everyone that joined Sylas on his journey to the Freljord died horrible deaths. The oxen, the people that joined him...if any of the named characters here joined him, RIP forever. Also, when did the Ruination happen? Before or after this game, chronologically? Because it seems that the nightmares are far from over for Shyvana.
About Jarvan IV, Garen and Lux,League of Legends lore is hardly new to having champions be villains - Xerath, Azir, Swain, LeBlanc, Urgot, Camille and, well, you know, VIEGO. So I would love to see Jarvan as a villain and Garen and Lux as his supporters. Because it really does makes sense for their characters and the story of Demacia. Even with Morgana's vision, Demacians aren't going to stop believing in king's and nobily's divine right to rule overnight. It makes sense that Jarvan would remain in power even after he did a genocide against his own people. And it makes sense that instead of decreeing the acceptance of mages in demacian society he would segregate them to Terebisia, which just so happens to be run by Luxanna Crownguard, an aristocrat loyal to him, who doesn't support his primary opponent - Sylas, and who can convince many mages to side with her instead of joining the revolution. Sylas is right, he and Lux will never truly be allies. And this puts Lux's character in an interesting spot where she has to choose between her family and her privilege as an aristocrat and her freedom as a mage is an oppressive fascist state. Unfortunately, this is an angle that I am 99% sure Riot doen't have the spine to pull off. I'm pretty sure some of the high-ups in Riot would consider Jarvan, Garen and Lux to be "the sensible centrists" of this story. Which makes me really happy to see Sylas's final lines where he said that there will never be peace until the current rules, and the current system of government, are no more.
I had a whole long comment written out but decided not to write a freaking essay. Summary it is. All of these characters are well written as what they are, and it's incredibly frustrating. On Garen: He is that college football jock who has spent his whole life being pointed in a direction and told to do what he is already good at doing and then praised for it. He has never had to make an actual decision in his life. He can stare down a charging army but hasn't the spine to even stand with his sister against a genocidal army coming to kill her until Jarvan tells him he's free to. Lux: I want to love her as much as I do in fanon. I can't. She's not naive. She's banking on using her privilege as a get-out-of-genocide free card and smoothing things over into a status quo she can work with. We see her literally set off to do this in the end and she knows it will work. She is a Crownguard. The only way she loses that as a trump card is if she actually sides with Sylas' rebellion and fights the Demacian state. Which is exactly why she won't. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's not naive, she's an aristocrat thinking like an aristocrat. The only reason she needed Sylas' help was because she did not bank on Jarvan's dumb ass handing power to a fanatic like Wisteria whom she couldn't leverage her name with. The problem with Lux is that the story wants to paint her as a compassionate leader but she ultimately acts out of self-protection instead of any actual selfless motive. It's why she'll always go back to her horrible family. She won't really go anywhere as a character until she hits an actual breaking point she can't Crownguard her way out of. speaking as a hopeless lightcannon shipper, this is why she needs Jinx. She needs to lose all of her privilege and all of her assumptions and spend some time in the gutter with someone who is a dark mirror of all her poor decisions, someone who can show her what 'suffering the consequences of your actions' really looks like. Don't get me started on Jarvan, I have so much to say about him but it's all stuff Skyen already covered better.
Although I very much agree that J4 and Garen have done horrific deeds, that they need to be held accountable, they need to step down immediately, they can no longer be casted in a heroic light, but I don't really know if they have all they need to realise the severity of their actions and in turn take the appropriate actions to be accountable. They remind me of Rameses of Prince of Egypt, so engrained in what person they should be and so disconnected from the lives of the oppressed, it may take them to lose everything they have or to lose the person they hold dearest forever (unalived by their very own actions) or for their loved ones they trust to strongly confront them about it. In that light, I'm a tiny bit hopeful that there could be stories in the future to address the atrocities J4 and Garen enacted and they can grow to be better characters, and that means mercenary Garen and tavern keeper Jarven, but who am I kidding, it's never ever happening, unless... Arcane season 200?
The biggest problem I see is that they can still play as heroes, because they believe their self heroes both Jarvan and Garen, and most of demacia believe them heroes as much as right now a lot of people see Aatrox as much of a hero because of the new content in LoR but he is still a genocide killer destroyer, but as long as theres a someone, may it be themselves or the fandom or their people, they will get their own hero like spotlight, and will happen with a lot of champions except those that are only meant to be villains for one horrible event (Viego and Bel'veth suck, cough cough)
Yea. I kinda agree. I didn't like how they made jarvan and garen to be the hero sorta at the end. If they really wanted to make them look like the good guys. What they should have done is create a short panel story were jarvan and garens batallion. Invaded the mageseeker facility through a tip from someone and found the atrocities they commited to its people. Jarvan had all them pulled out and stop all actions but the mageseeker follow the main villian's order to invade lux's camp. They way it sorta make them look like they didn't know how bad the mageseeker is and would still look like the good guy. Also just to continue with sylas lore. Sylas ending should be, All of it's main support died from garens team. Like totally annihilated and he hated demacia and wants a total revolution where every royal must die/replaced so that it would still make sense. Also it's annoying that jarvan had a change of heart just because he couldn't clap Shyvanna's cheeks anymore.
So the whole story is kinda like this. Garen and westeria defeated sylas team like almost all of them died > one of the mageseeker could no longer handle everything after seeing all the genocide and sent Garen and Jarvan a tip to go to one of the mageseeker's facility> Jarvan found out about all the experiments and decided to stop everything > westeria didn't agree and proceeded with the order to destroy lux's camp > Sylas who's still in grief found out about the invasion and went to help > mageseeker arrived > big brother Garen arrived and help Lux > Sylas faced Westeria > ending would still be the same. Jarvan and Garen being a hero Lux incharge of a mage city And sylas wanting to kill every royalty no matter what and left for frejlord for power.
Man, I don't get this game. If it wanted to redeem Garen and Jarvan at the end, why didn't it try to do it through the whole story? Why the fuck did developers DECIDE to show us an actual decision of Garen and Jarvan to participate in genocide just to later try to redeem at the end? They are already in a pretty deep moral swamp at THE START of the game. Logically it would seem that you would try to spent the whole game to somehow get them out of there. But no. It's this. I kinda hate the game for that, not gonna lie. I feel like Jarvan could have an actual story where his mistakes and blindness and good intent could be made adequately and be fleshed-out through this game and would make him more of a sympathetic character, not just an evil stupid hypocrite. But now I guess it can never happen, thanks to this game. Jarvan now is this, no coming back.
Jarvan is just how i thought he'd be, a hypocrite who doesn't care about his people. I disliked garen even more, he cared more about what everyone would think rather than his sister, he is a brat literally, he is just a jock that supported genocide until it affected him
They can't exactly condemn their champions entirely because lots of players had started maining Garen and J4 long before Demacia was established as the mage-genociding kingdom. There was a huge backlash when Riot tried to turn Varus from a heroic figure mourning the loss of his family into a sadistic demon -- in fact, it was so huge that they had to rewrite his bio several times to give his dignity back to him. So, I guess people won't be happy about suddenly finding themselves maining genocidal fascists instead of valiant knights. To be honest, the writers wrote themselves in a corner straight from the Lux comic by trying to say "Both sides are wrong" (when one side is literally committing genocide and the other side is represented by a man screwed over by the Demacian system), and trying to present Lux's spineless pacifistic approach as the right way to go, while demonizing Sylas for resisting his execution and planning his escape. It was a hot mess, which game partially tried to fix -- and probably didn't have enough time to give J4 and Garen some proper arcs to make their redemption feel more impactful (they also had to take into account that Garen and J4 were huge assholes in the Lux comic, which complicated the matters further).
In some ways, it's unsurprising. Some people desperately want to love fanon Lux but canon Lux is not that. She's not naive. She's banking on using her privilege as a get-out-of-genocide free card and smoothing things over into a status quo she can work with. We see her literally set off to do this in the end and she knows it will work. She is a Crownguard. The only way she loses that as a trump card is if she actually sides with Sylas' rebellion and fights the Demacian state. Which is exactly why she won't. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's not naive, she's an aristocrat thinking like an aristocrat. The only reason she needed Sylas' help was because she did not bank on Jarvan's dumb ass handing power to a fanatic like Wisteria whom she couldn't leverage her name with. The problem with Lux is that the story wants to paint her as a compassionate leader but she ultimately acts out of self-protection instead of any actual selfless motive. It's why she'll always go back to her horrible family. She won't really go anywhere as a character until she hits an actual breaking point she can't Crownguard her way out of.
Respectfully I disagree when you imply Garen and Jarvan should not and never be redeemable. I think honestly by the end of this story albeit they have a long way to go, they are still well written characters. I think that's the point, these are characters, they are written to be characters with depth and complexity, and when you try to take away that from them and turn them into characters who should only exist to be cardboard genociders with no redeeming qualities, it kinda takes away from the story of runeterra as a whole. I think a huge point of this game is that a person can be many things, Lux herself says this and this includes all the characters involved, so I disagree when you say Garen and Jarvan should've stayed evil and had no redeemable qualities. They are three dimensional characters, as are everyone else written in the game.
I think, what they need is a really cathartic moment. Not just "oh no, my dragon waifu left me" or "oh, my sister doesn't hug me anymore," but an eye-opener that hits him like a truck and makes them actively put himself in harm's way. Maybe, Garen sees what's inside of those creepy petricite machines, is sickened by it, and throws himself between Lux and Mageseekers or, heck, even takes a hit meant for Sylas because he recognizes that all that time he was the want who failed to represent the virtues of Demacia, while Sylas didn't. Maybe J4 learns about Hesbeth's experimentations, and it snaps him out of his anger: he realizes that he wants justice for his father's murderers, not *this*, so he tries to shut it down, but Eldred (who gathered enough political influence) poisons him or incapacitates him, and then presents it as another assassination attempt made by mages while posing as a temporary ruler. So, J4 gets a taste of the medicine Demacia dispensed to mages: he is the one who is poisoned, locked up, and helpless (and maybe Shyvana is the one to break him out, even though it leaves her wounded, with J4 having to seek help from mages, and ultimately see their truth). What I generally mean is that I think their redemption is possible, but, just like Morgana's philosophy points it out, it has to cost them something, so they would feel the pain of their errors and will remember it.
It is character development and they are well written characters, you are allowed to like it. However they aren’t supposed to be likeable or heroic at all and nothing will ever change that
I hate how they dumbed down both Garen and Jarvan so much that they basically have no empathy. They, at least in their charactirization, are people who want to uphold what's right. And that is a complex thing because their society and the objective morality clashes. I understand that they aren't really the focus, it just sucks because this might be a reference to be used to make the collective "canon" lore, and in my opinion, it didn't give justice to both of them and didn't respect their intelligence.
Yeah because garen just doesn't give. A shit about the suffering he causes and which he participates in, he is an idiot that doesn't even think other than his sister he would let a kid get his head cut off in front of him, as long as he isn't affected, this honestly made garen such a bad character that i will kill every garen i see in game. Jarvan is so lame as a character, i thought the king of Demacia would be a retarded idiot that would justify genocide with something stupid, the game did not disappoint on making jarvan be the king of Demacia, shyvanna is one of the characters from their side that has a brain.
sylas is a revolutionary that wants to abolish the aristocracy, he is fully a hero now, there is no way around it anymore, i kinda wish the game was a little centrist and gave him a more extremist edge, made him more an ambiguous character, but i am also happy that they really treated the mage genocide for what it is, there really isn't much that could be done against demacia that couldn't be justified
I think its important to remember that in runeterra the Geoneva convention doesn't exist. Apart of that I agree that the game should be more harash on Garen and Jarvan in the end, buy we can understand them as products of their time and place, for centuries mages were concider inhumane and dangerous, it's normal that they seem them as momsters. It's by their relationship with people with magic that they realize that it's not true. The same way you cant condem an English man in the 1700 for being raicist, homofobic (for the case the would also consider modern heterosexual relationships degenerate), or sexist. That were topics that their society didn't had discussed in that poin PD: Sorry for my broken english, it's not my first language
The petti king and the lawful-stupid paladin could be redeemed but it would take another couple of stories to do it. Garen is easier, he's a total meat head and I believe he did what he out of shear stubborn ignorance. He also had less power in the first place and in order to keep being a defender of Dimassia he doesn't, technically, need to be in a position of power. Of course he still needs to do a lot work to make up for what did and he has to realise that he was part of the problem and own up to that. Lux forgiving him for betraying her is fine, it's her prerogative, but if she wants to be a good leader she is going to have to hold him accountable for what he's done. Jarvan needs to stand down. He can't be king and a redeemable person. This mess is his fault and it was coursed by his bad intentions, his desire to hurt people becuase he had been hurt himself. He isn't fit to rule anything on a practical or moral level and he needs to f*** off and have good hard think about what he's done. He can not be redeemed as a figure with any kind of power but if he work very very hard he may be able to redeem himself as person. It's going to a Akali / Miss Fortune level of shift in his story for him to come out this as something even approximating a hero.
The mocking of Jarvan for his response to his father's death (specifically the "he wanted to hurt everyone who took his daddy away from him WAAAAHHH" bit) felt much. Jarvan is a bigot and I hate him, and I hate the whole "you're hot and I wanna bang and that magically cured my bigotry" trope. But specifically making him out to be a "crybaby" because he felt grief for his parent's death or even that he wanted to hurt the person he thought murdered him feels... wrong, I guess, since I can't come up with a better word. Maybe I am too overly sensitive about these things since the whole crybaby mockery thing has been used on me whenever I've been hurt about something (when I was young it was out some form of toxic masculinity, and now its out of some attempt to infantilize me as a "triggered baby" if I try to fight transphobia). Anyway, I thought the other call outs where much more to the point in laying his rampant bigotry bare.
My biggest problem with Jarvan's revenge was that Sylas explicitly told them, several times, that he didn't kill his father. And Jarvan was there to witness it because Sylas dragged him along to kill the king, and they found him dead together, with Sylas being sincerely surprised by that -- J4 doesn't have to like Sylas to admit that he wasn't the murderer. Also, in Katarina's comic, Garren encounters Katarina right after she kills the king, and they fight (and while Garren suspects her to be Sylas' accomplice, Katarina affirms that she is NOT a mage). So, it's not like they don't know who is behind the king's death, and Garren never brings up a non-mage assassin woman with red hair and a scar (those are like very memorable details). I mean, it's not that hard to suspect Noxus' hand in all of this. Therefore, I personally don't blame Jarvan for grieving, but I do blame him for taking his rage out on mages without actually trying to investigate his father's death and ensure he knows the name of every participant.
Yeah, listen, it's reasonable to be immensely distraught about a family member dying. If he went and punched a wall and got drunk and yelled at strangers or got in a fight at a bar or something, I'd be a lot more sympathetic. Even if those responses are not okay, they are understandable and reasonable. It is _not_ reasonable to express that distress by using your power as a head of state to send thousands of innocents to concentration camps to be tortured, experimented upon and executed. Jarvan believes that his personal pain and the transgression against his family justifies an ethnic cleansing. A member of a particular ethnic group killed someone he cares about (he thinks) - and therefore he believes it is justified to engage in a genocide. _And too that is bigotry._ Jarvan treating the death of his father as a legitimate reason to do genocide is _an expression of bigotry._ While it is obviously not equivalent, one thing being fantasy fiction and the other being real life, Jarvan is essentially operating on the same logic that made white people in the US during segregation believe that it was reasonable to lynch a black person for being rude to a white person. That _extreme_ disproportionality, that immediate jump to death and extermination in response to perceived wrongdoing, _that is bigotry too._ It comes from bigoted thinking. The only way you can possibly believe that genocidal oppression is a reasonable response to a personal tragedy is if you do not believe that the people you are targeting for destruction are human beings. He can only reach that conclusion because he already believes that mages as a group are sub-human non-persons whose lives are inherently less worthy of protection and respect. Hence why I call Jarvan a big pathetic crybaby. Because he believes that his personal pain matters more than the human lives of other people. Because his grief is slathered in bigotry.
@@2BSkyen Yes, clearly he is a bigot. His forgiveness is not on the table given the scale and consequence of his bigotry. His decision to commit genocide - irregardless of personal events in his life (how did you italicize?) - is horrific. I disagree with you entirely btw that it would maybe be OK for him to be merely stripped of the crown and live his life farming - he needs to be incarcerated because he is a murderous bigot. But the section I talk about specifically, in the video, feels like it sits on its own. It doesn't have this background essay of supporting detail and reasoning. Its just hanging there by itself. It sounded to me like you hated Jarvan (which I do too!) and so you decided to attack him somewhere else entirely. The problem isn't the grief. The problem isn't that he wants to hurt the person that "took his daddy away from him." The problem is he generalized this to an entire group of people and then proceeded to abuse his power to inflict death on them on a systematic problems (the way I write it doesn't make it clear, but that is multiple problems of increasing scale that eventually reach the point of being entirely unforgivable). But the video doesn't make that relation. The closest comparison I can think of is when people refuse to gender transgender criminals correctly claiming they "lost the right" or whatever else. In some sense it conflates two things, when only one is the problem. As you put it, Jarvan reacts as he does for two reasons: he grieves and he "do[es] not believe that the people [he is] targeting for destruction are human beings." The second one is the problem. The genocide is the problem. Not that he is a crybaby about daddy dying. The problem is he committed genocide. Fundamentally his grief doesn't factor - it doesn't somehow make the genocide worse (and to be very, very clear, it sure as hell doesn't absolve him). Taking pot shots at him for whatever other reason distracts from the actual issue that he is a mass murderer. I would have preferred if we stuck to what made him deplorable, not him being a "crybaby." Still I'm quibbling over some detail when your mockery of him is otherwise entirely on the money in my opinion - I should probably stop.
Maybe it was too obvious to comment on, but the endgame fight was literally a mirror of the fight between the two sisters. I feel like there was something more to that, that maybe Wisteria was possessed/blessed by Kayle, (it would explain why her side of the duo-statues glowed as well during the reveal,) but the devs clearly ran out of time before being able expand on the idea. I also felt Rayne's adoption was forced as all hell. She has no reason to be loyal to Sylus, especially after killing her mother figure. There should've been some post-game content where you have to chase her down and convince her to join your side, but again, there was no time. An amazing title that was long enough, I suppose but didn't feel like it. Definitely want more out of this and it's characters.
Just like they had a Morgana's feather, so they could have something from Kayle as well. Rayn's power are derived from Morgana's, so they just did the same with Wisteria and Kayle's power.
Yeah I really just don't see how Garen and Jarvan are at all redeemable as characters. Maybe if they went with they did not support the Mageseekers but Lord Eldred had accumulated enough power and personal loyalty of Mageseekers to continue his operation anyway. Would have added another layer to the civil war and made it so Jarvan and Garen are not so terrible. They went with this anti-magic bit when they released new Galio and I didn't like it then. Since then the trajectory has continued to be bad. Combined with a constant stream of rewrites upon rewrites and retcons upon retcons the setting and history of Runeterra is so mangled. I can understand they wanted a bit more nuance than Demacia=mostly good and Noxus=mostly bad, but the new paradigm is all nations in Runeterra are terrible. They are all awful. Everyone sucks. There is no nation to root for. So it is sort of hard to be invested or care about these characters. The whole characterization of every important Demacian character has been mangled ever since Galio's rework. Demacia is literally a Nazi Germany parallel and every one of the nation's "heroic" characters is complicit in it. It tarnishes the moral character of every single one of them. Is Demacia supposed to be a villain nation full of villain characters? Riot certainly doesn't depict them that way, but it is the sensible interpretation of the worldbuilding. Look at Cithria's art and voice lines. She's a hero who undergoes a hero's journey. She also fights for the military that helps maintain this genocidal state. So I can't just root for Cithria, she is complicit in the problem. Every story, every character, everything Demacia is about is tainted by "Oh this character is part of a system that commits genocide." It pretty much ruins all the important Demacians.
In my opinion, IF they NEED to be redeemed, you need to see them step down and resle with their past in a separate work. I mean proper, "I now see the blood on my hands and feel as though i can never atone" shit. Even then, it's still f*cked they need to regain their post cuz the status quot must be restored, that would at least something.
Yes terrible things were done under orders, but most of those were orders from the Mage Seeker order, not directly from the Crown, and both J3 and J4 realized that the mageseekers had too much power and were going too far. In fact the lab where experiments were done and what exactly most of those experiments were was hidden from almost everyone. J4 and J3 made bad decisions but not 100% of what was done is their blame. But uh...idk if Lol is going to change things enough to make J4 not be the king. So Sylas next goal is to take the fight directly to J4 and force him to give up power? But did u srsly think they weren't going to at least start Garen and J4's redemption arc? Idk part of the problem is that Demacia was retconned INTO having a mage genocide...so idk it doesn't feel fair to their characters or their fans to outright deny them part redemption. Bc b4 the lore changed they WERE decent enough people at least they didn't have closets full of genocide skeletons...NOW they do...so they need to return to having SOME redeemable qualities. Like they aren't characters i like, but it would SUCK if all of a sudden Poppy was revealed to have genocided a bunch of other fae in her past... bc the lore just changed. Like how do poppy fans react to that? All of a sudden their previously good aligned fav silly lil yordle is now a genocider...Back to J4 tho, if the king is elected...then just hold a new election, hopefully all the people with their new insight pick someone else.
Is it just me or have we seen way too many stories lately where we're supposed to relate to and forgive genocidal men? Kratos, Jarvan, Garren, Joel from the Last of Us... it's getting creepy
Kratos was evil and we still treat him like someone who cannot atone, just do better. Jarven and garden I agree. Joel... well, Joel is complicated, and it don't want to explain why I agree with you but also weirdly don't. But your broader point still stands
I don’t get his stance on the murder thing. Garen is a soldier first of off so murdering people because it’s his jobs and he was ordered to comes with the territory. Sylas also murdered a lot of people, a lot of those were for revenge. He indiscriminately killed a lot of mage seekers. Hell if he met Gideon not behind bars he would have attempted to kill him too. And Gideon probably killed a lot of innocents too.
Soldiers still don't follow orders mindlessly. They can refuse to carry out orders under the "war crime" category. This is why there are war tribunals. Also, Garen uses A LOT of his influence to keep Lux safe -- in the Katharina comic, the head of the Crownguard estate guard isn't at all surprised by the fact that a random assassin chick jumped out, knifed all her guards and said that Garen sent her and he wants to keep things quiet. So, not only does Garen not extend the "kill/imprison mages" order to Lux by pretending he doesn't know that Lux is a mage, he isn't above using dirty tactics or hiring assassins to make sure nobody executes the "kill/imprison mages" in regards to Lux. But at the same time, he would kill or drag someone else's sister, his fellow Demacian, to prison for the crime of being a mage. That's hypocrisy at its finest. Sylas and Garen parallels aren't comparable because people who become Mageseekers are usually the people who choose to dehumanize, torture, enslave and kill mages. They literally choose to be that way. Mages, meanwhile, don't choose to be mages. They're born like this -- and aside from their magic powers, they aren't any different from any other innocent Demacian citizens. So, Sylas kills Mageseekers indiscriminately because they couldn't have joined the "kill all mages club" out of good intentions -- he kills them before they kill him or someone close to him. Yes, Gideon was lucky to meet Sylas when he was behind bars --- and Gideon risks his own life to right his wrongs and save the man he loves. He doesn't expect a happy ending for himself. He wants to use his skills and knowledge to help those who suffered from his colleagues and uproot the system he took part in creating. His actions speak louder than his verbal regrets.
There's a pretty big difference between imprisoning, torturing and murdering innocent civilians, and killing members of the organization that is imprisoning, torturing and murdering innocent civilians.
@@2BSkyen I agree completely. But Garen (for what the story showed) Did none of what you said before. Gideon being a mageseeker for many years probably participated in or turned a blind eye to, at the least, of what you stated. But he doesn't get the same hate as Garen from you.
@@ShamPenny The thing is, Gideon paid the price. His husband got taken by Mageseekers, and he lost his freedom. So he already got the taste of his own medicine -- and he chose to act against the Demacian system, together with rebels, sharing everything he knows and fighting against his former colleagues. He doesn't expect forgiveness. He doesn't do it to show that he is a good person. He does it, because he feels responsible for what happened because he failed his beloved person and himself. Garen didn't go through such losses -- and his "Lux, let's go home, send those people away, they're not your concern" speech sounded so...childish and infantile. After all, he is the fucking Dauntless Guard. He gave an oath to protect people. Those people are HIS CONCERN because they're citizens of Demacia he SWORE to defend.
Man I love Jarvan and Garen. Both got blindsided by their version of Justice. I mean they'll get what they deserve someday but man skyen who hurt you to be that passionate about hating 2 fictional characters. You got blue balled by riot sure. It's like blaming the hooker because she didn't make you cum.😂 Still it was Fun to watch ngl. And me waiting for your insights was worth it. Riot please make stuff like this more it's hilarious to see superfans malding. Never change Skyen.
@@an8strengthkobold360 Yup because they assume that mages were bad and by eliminating them demacia will be safe. Then truth came out and they're making amends. Of course people will hate them. And also we know the truth early on that's why most people hate them. We are at the finish line and for once in their life they finally ran and we keep pushing them back. Man I love their characters they are a success in my opinion because they create this types of discussion that will never end.
I completely agree for the Jarvan ans Garen part ; they can't change their mindset and who they are, and they made it so very clear that they SHOULD NOT be okay with what they've donne. Other than the gameplay perspective (Banger guys) they made a good choice choosing Sylas as the hero to this story, rather than Lux who would have been a disney princess about it. But the part you accidentally cut tries to explain how lucid she is about his situation. Also, I think that the core message of the game is oh so much more powerful ans revolutionnary with the inclusion of Morgana, because it's trying to speak to us about Empathy ; the fact that people are weak, twisted, complocated, and multifaceted, and that we should see the world through connection and forgiveness rather than wrath and righteousness. I do believe that wrath can be legit. One HAS to draw a line. But unbending values and the refusal of the complexities of life, pain, pity, love, that's Kayle, making everyone pay in one swift cut everyone's head because no one is worthy of mercy. I reconciled with the internal color grammar of Riot, where Golden and Blue is shiny exterior and authority, and Purple and dark not evil, but everything in humain nature that we should look in the eyes and face and, to an extent, accept and embrace. The monster it's okay to be, the ugly far from the ideal... But at least honest. Status quo & change Kayle & Morgana Demacia & Sylas Piltover & Jinx If anything is coded as gross or weird, and really monsterous, it's green, and yet, there is no moral compass to it, more like they are byproduct of their environnement (Twitch Singe Warwick Urgot Jacks in Piltover are retroactively attatched to Chemteck, ans cold Blue and cyan to the Isles of Death)
