How long to do EV batteries last? Lets look at a 6 year old Renault Zoe 22kWh electric car. 

I tend to disagree on that one. EV's with very good battery temperature and charge management systems, don't show this trend. General Motors Spark EV and Bolt, do have liquid cooling and heating system for the battery pack and the inboard charger never charges the battery passed a threshold that would accelerate its degradation. I own a 2016 Spark EV and it had only 19 000 kilometres when I bought it in 2020 and its battery is in top shape now in March 2022, with 35 000 kilometres. I keep it plugged whenever I don't use it so the battery management system takes good care of its protégé

@@JacquesPPage Yes it’s incorrect. Most modern EVs have a buffer at the top of at least 5% and sensible EV owners only charge to 80% unless they’re planning on a long trip the following day. The Zoe might be an exception being a short range EV. It’s cycles and calendar age that degrade batteries. A 22kWh Zoe with 150,000 miles on the clock is going to be a lot more degraded because that’s a minimum of 1250 cycles of such a small battery. The proof is in the video - this battery is close to 100% after 6 years of. light use. 25,000 miles = about 210 cycles - 250 cycles.

If the cells are type Li 18650 cells or similar construction leaving them at 100% literally destroys. Got lots of experience with lithium packs for rc aircraft and drones. Cars should have protection to discharge the cells to 3.7v volts as leaving them at 4.2v is not good

Looks like they dont fully charge the cells anyway

So its not really the mileage that is a factor but the user charging routine of the lower mileage vehicle that is the degredation reason for lower mileage cars. Lower mileage cars that are only normally charged to 80% except when balancing charging or going for a run won't deteriorate any more than a high mileage car?

Sounds like we live a bit south of you in the Deux-Sevres. Good to hear the Zoe has performed well. Renault generally have not had a great reputation for reliability of their ICE powered cars, the Zoe seems to be repairing that and the new Megan e-tech looks great and is getting favourable reviews. We’ve had a Kia e-Niro since March 2019, so one of the first batch into France. We got it from the main dealer in Niort (Cachet Giraud) who subsequently dropped Kia but this hasn’t been a problem as Groupe Barbier (La Rochelle) opened a Kia dealership in Niort next door to their Hyundai franchise. The car has been great with only the passenger side wing mirror being replaced under warranty when it failed to fold back on locking the car. I am taking the car in for its 60,000 km service this afternoon. If you are looking for something a bit bigger and longer range then I can recommend the Kia...You are welcome to look at Kia e-Niro Diaries Encore on RU-vid where I record the long term ownership experience..on road trips around France, to UK and Germany.

Hy! Do you want to sell the car?

Good buy. That's the way to get them.

Yup, you did well. People have paid that much for the car without the battery, which they then need to lease or buy for a large amount of dosh.

Ah the fabled 98%. You know they all do that after the BMS update.... its a lie. You'll soon see the SOH dropping.

Hi. After the bms update your range went up too?

@@suatsert3523 It seems to be calculating the range correctly. It's been getting 3.5 miles/KWh and about 80 miles to a charge which is about right for the 22KWh battery.

It needs to be user settable for us geeks. So for example i could set my ev charger to only charge to 90% unless I'm going on a long journey. True the manufacturers BMS will not go to actual 100% but its always a compromise between battery life and headline range.

Can you set it so it switches off at a certain level of capacity? (eg 90%)

ZE 40 has 150 miles plus or minus 20 miles. If you can get a 3-5 year old one, battery-owned (ZE40i) you will have enjoyable and inexpensive motoring. Just remember that many of them will only charge at maximum of 22kW, so if you go on a long journey, it is 1 hour charging for every 60 miles range you need.

Glad it helped. Other Zoe videos you may find useful ru-vid.comsearch?query=zoe Also www.gogreenautos.co.uk/buyers-guide/renault-zoe-guide

Most battery myths come from those with zero EV ownership experience, and can be debunked easily.

@@Brian-om2hh Like?

​@@Brian-om2hhbut so much bs from ev enthusiasts.

Hi John. Been pushing the Zoe to the limit then!

@@GoGreenAutos just the once. Rolled onto our driveway with 0 miles 🥴

Don't be scared. Have an EV since ten months, basically I switched from paying to the petrol company to paying to the bank but the grand total is definitely less (on 28000 km/year). The running cost is ridiculously low. Longer journeys is more of a hassle than with a petrol car, but in no way unbearable. The worst part is the payment for fast charging (you need one solution per company, generally you can't simply pay with a bank card) and the rate of broken fast chargers. The driving experience - you realize how it must have been on the railways when the steam locomotives were phased out... you won't regret going electric! No way I'm going back.

@@altoclef6688 Thank you for this reasoned reply. I still feel I would keep the dinosaur burner for the longer journeys, and use an EV as a local runabout. Aside: Are you a viola player?

@@Soruk42 I am a very bad viola player but yes, I play the viola. Main instrument is the piano. But I want to promote the viola, it's an often overlooked instrument with a very pleasant sound.

Haha you’ll not want to go back to diesel after driving an ev!

The cost diesel scared me, driving EV since Nov 2023 after my old diesel failed beyond economic repair. So far in 8 months and 12000 miles I have had 1/3 “fuel” costs and that’s with public charging as well as about 50% peak rate home charging. Literally a game changer! Oh and so much more enjoyable to drive.

Plenty of similar videos on the channel too.

Plenty of other videos on this channel about battery life. See ru-vid.comsearch?query=battery

Gom isn't a good indicator of much. Don't rely on it

That isn't a reserve....

This is unusual to need a new battery on a ZE40. But yes, leaving the car for long periods at 100% SoC is the worst thing you can do to a pack. That is why I always buy high mileage EVs for my own use - they're cheaper and have better packs.

@@GoGreenAutos that's really good to know that higher mileage is probably better (if SOC is still high) As I am unsure how long my car is going to last (turbo oil feed pipe had cracked and let all the oil out was driven for shot time with no oil, I had engine wiring loom problem a the time as well didn't alert me of the low/oil low pressure condition until my brake booster assist stopped working because the vacuum pump wasn't to happy not having oil, all fixed for now but no oil for short time is still isn't very good for a engine and can destroy it self at a later date as the bearings eat away if they got damaged when there was no oil) so looking at an ev car to reduce fuel costs and impeding "emission 50 yard zones £12 day when you cross into different areas" so need a car that can do 100-130miles a day ideally from one charge (ideally with heater use included if needed) i got a bit of research ahead I guess Battery's usually have slightly more capacity than what they actually sell them as (the lower end of the battery is usually reserved so not to discharge the battery to much and damage it)

There are a few RU-vid videos posted by Mitsubishi iMIEV owners who have fitted a heater with good results. Sounds like a sensible idea for a 22kWh Zoë but not seen it done yet.

It’s one of those mysteries in life along with why instruction manuals are incomprehensible to human beings! 🤷‍♂️

Yes that is good for an older Leaf...but its because yours has had more use than the typical.

@@GoGreenAutos Yes it is my main car, I use it for work and going out to town shopping etc etc. It gets charged to 100% everyday and goes down to about 30-40% battery everyday.

Yes correct. Californian cars are the same too. We're lucky in the UK that we have a EV friendly climate....for now!

@@GoGreenAutos I live in the SF Bay Area and my 2017 e-Golf (~40,000 miles on odometer, purchased new in March 2018) is at about 29 - 30 kWh usable capacity since 20,000 miles. I rarely charge to 100% and in super hot temps limit pack to 80% SoC. But if I lived in Southern California I am sure the degradation would be worse.

Well that's interesting and goes against what makes sense. I charge my model 3 to 90 once or twice a week but often wonder if that's a bit hight especially when leaving it at 90 for over 24 hrs sometimes

@@hibbs79 The battery chemistry & cooling on the model 3 is different to the Zoe , plus the Zoe only has air cooling to cool the battery. Tesla say charging up to 90% on the Model 3 is ok. But Renault do not give any information on what to charge up to at all on the Zoe. That's probably why they went down the battery rental route when the Zoe first came out . And the battery degradation effects of long term usage was still not known back then. I know other Zoe's owners with same age car but low mileage like Matt's shown in the video above don't seem to suffer much battery degradation over time. When the Zoe first came out the battery was leased and the battery warranty for a battery leased Zoe was covered all the time the battery was leased. My Zoe is battery owned so comes with a 100,000 mile warranty or until the SOH goes below 66%. I purchased it to drive it till it dies or I win a Tesla model 3. ( Driving till it dies is more likely)👍

The vast majority of EV owners will charge at home 95% of the time, mainly because it's cheaper and more convenient. Rapid charging usually only gets used on those longer trips, which happen 2 or 3 times a year for most.

The reality is that for the vast majority of cars (i.e. in the real world), rapid charging makes no measurable difference. I know of ex-taxi EVs that have had over 6,000 rapid charges and their packs are no worse others.

@@GoGreenAutos But what about Teslas, Porches etc. that the owners charge in 350kw chargers from 80 to 100 percent because of “range-anxiety” on their way home from work? Surely that would have a larger impact?

@@joelcarterramadge183 Yes that probably would have an impact. Only time will tell. But owners shouldn't be rapid charging over 80% SoC as that is just inefficient use of time and also blocks the charger for others.

@@Brian-om2hh big generalisation going on there. I commuted 320mi round trip each weekend for 3 years, plenty of rapid charging 😁

I think that's OK- they were probably being cautious and waiting to see how real world use would affect batteries. Now they have more data, they have the confidence to unlock a bit more capacity, which is helpful for us as owners.

I suspect you've seen, but I did do a video about solving the water ingress issue with the Zoe, see ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5Fhj1nY2-Uc.htmlsi=YlgLddcpLSI6WHOu

@@GoGreenAutos Yes I’ve seen it - thanks.

Good to hear.

What is the minste of that zoe? I am interested to buy an old used Zoe as cheep as possible

A good question. Recently, I’ve come across one or two RU-vid entries to do with outfits that use various components like traction batteries, motors and so on, that were recovered from “written off” EVs, so as to convert old cars and vans into electric traction in lieu of their old engines. So there appears to be a second hand market for items like that. It’s not clear if EVs are more likely to be written off compared with other things, though.

Thanks for that!

Mine never dropped below 97 miles on the GOM but rearly would only get about 80 miles to a charge, but I live in a rural area and zoe rearly goes above 50mph and I only drive in eco

@@simonupton-millard I too do mainly rural roads in eco for 90% of the time, so it's looking like I need to get my car checked out. I've just checked it today and it's showing a range of 41 miles at 60% charge. By my reckoning, that works out at 68 miles for a full charge.

I have a 2013 22kw Zoe and this time of year the max I have is 68 miles range on a full charge. When I had it from mew it would be around 95 miles range. Had the battery checked by a main dealer and they said it was still at 100% capacity.

@@gr6075 That is strange. If the main dealer is right, it seems to defy logic! I definitely think I will visit my dealer and see if they can offer any advice. I was intending to upgrade to the ZE40, but they scarce at the moment and prices are high.

@@gr6075 there is an app called CanZE with a Bluetooth dongle it can read the battery SOH might be worth a look as that is deferentially not right

Yes so much rubbish is published in the mainstream media.

Scaremongering and lies is what msm does.

Glad it was helpful!

Glad you found the channel. I've been making hundreds of videos over years now and some only get a few hundred views. Its very frustrating how the channel hasn't grown. I've not had a Honda e in yet, but yes when you charge to 100%, the battery will be at something like 95% SoC. The liquid cooling on your pack probably isn't used too much (in the UK), as batteries run hotter than you'd imagine. Its probably only cooled when doing a DC rapid charge or on the occasional hot summer day. Most of the time, its probably warming the pack (if it has a heating function). But yes, if you leave the car plugged in, it will be at 100% SoC when you disconnect. If anything used power, the charge will be called for, if its plugged in. As for what is a battery cycle, its not when known or documented. But I really wouldn't worry about it. Far too many people worry about battery degradation and battery health. The car has a BMS which looks after the battery for you, so you just need to plug in and forget about it. The majority of people will not keep a vehicle long enough to ever experience any battery degradation, yet spend far too much effort trying to look after the battery for little or no gain. But because most fear change or are weary of things that are new, there is too much emphasis given to degrading battery packs when its not really an issue. Engines have a lifespan and on average it is looking like its less than an EV battery pack, yet most people are quite slack with oil changes (if its out of warranty) and don't obsess with its wear and degrading. I'm not saying you're like this...but this is how generally EVs are perceived and how new EV drivers treat their EVs. The worst thing to get is a app to track the battery SoH. I know many Leaf owners who do this and then get completely obsessed with their battery health.

@@GoGreenAutos Thanks for your reply it. Was very useful. I chose the Honda because of the conservative approach they have always had to their design and their reliability. The car is over engineered in every respect. I know what you mean about Nissan Leaf owners.

You dont account for unusable capacity... lol

@@samusaran7317 my comment is about comparing total capacity and not usable.

_"Each cell have 36Ah and 3.75V nominal voltage, there are 192 cells so 25.92 kWh."_ How do you know that? _"Now you have 70.6*3.75*96=25.416 kWh"_ What do you mean by that? He has a SOC of 63.1%. From CanZe (2325 partial and 832 full loads) I know that - when fully charged the pack voltage is 396V (4.125V/cell) and the available energy at around 20-22kWh. - with a pack voltage of 360V (3.75V/cell) the SOC is at around 30% and the available energy 6kWh. - when empty at around SOC of 0% the pack voltage is at around 330V (3.44V/cell). Are you suggesting here that the Zoe pack has 72Ah*396V=28.512kWh max capacity and only providing 77% of it when new? I don't quite get your reasoning. Please clarify.

@@kullatnunu2087 Each cell have 36Ah of capacity and 3.75V nominal. Nominal Voltage is what is used to calculate energy. Each cell have 135Wh of energy. When new the energy is around 72Ah*360V=25.920kWh. Renault choose that when voltage is 3.44V/cell it shows 0%, in reality the cell have some more energy, as they can go to to 3.0V.

​@@ringone31 I'm sorry I don't get your reasoning. You wrote _"When new the energy is around 72Ah*360V=25.920kWh."_ First of all where did you get that information from? That means a new battery that has a voltage of 360V has an energy content of 25.92kWh and would mean a new battery that has a voltage of 310V which is dangerously low still would have an energy content of 22.32kWh according to your calculation? That would also mean that an aged battery that has 360V but has a SOC of 30% and an available energy of 6kWh as I wrote above has just 23% of it's nominal capacity? I don't think that's correct? I know for a fact that once the battery is at 100% SOC the voltage is 396V. Why does Renault show a SOC of 100% and 22kWh of available energy when according to your calculation the stored energy in the battery E=396V*72Ah=28.5kWh if it's new? Is that the case? The battery voltage is at least a function of the energy stored in a battery or vice versa and in case of the Zoe this function is V(E)=28ln(E)+310 or E(V)=e^(V-310/28). That means for a given energy level say 10kWh the voltage is 28ln(10)+310=375V or 6kWh the voltage is 28ln(6)+310=360V or 22kWh the voltage is 28ln(22)+310=396V. _"Renault choose that when voltage is 3.44V/cell it shows 0%, in reality the cell have some more energy, as they can go to to 3.0V."_ I get that ..... but below 3.44V/cell the voltage because of the logarithmical function drops very fast when energy is drawn from it which means there is not much energy to draw anymore (maybe 1kWh).

It could be that owners drove it really slow ...

Yes this had a two pedal reset when it came in as I do this to judge if the BMS has been updated.