Não. /slashes/ represent the way that sound is pronounced in the language. [brackets] represent the actual sound being said. So, /r/ = [h] in some dialects of Portuguese. But /h/ in Brazilian Portuguese is [#], because the letter H is silent. I hope this makes sense. Desculpe!
@@caseygreyson4178Well no the IPA isn't supposed to conform to writing nevertheless I used /h/ because even within the /h/ phoneme there are multiple realizations like [h], [x], [ʁ], [ɦ] sometimes even [r] hell sometimes when I emphasize /h/ it becomes [χ] also /r/ is already used for the tap [ɾ] so for /r/ to be /h/ you would need to analyze it as a geminate /rr/ that isn't actually a geminate.
@@SynchrodepityNope I was born in Minas Gerais spent a good chunk of my childhood in Brasília and nowadays I live in São Luís combining that with the fact my dialect does some really weird things (Like turning the denti-alveolars into alveolars, pronouncing /kʷ/ and /ɡʷ/ as [kʷ] and [ɡʷ] instead of [kw] and [gw] and pronouncing /tr/ as [t͡ɾ̥] AKA voiceless alveolar tapped affricate) I would say my dialect is close to or completely unique to me
@@ExzaktVid as a native spanish speaker, i hear "beder" There are only few times when i hear an r and only certain accents, like city, majority of people say "cidi", but someones say "ciri"
a rhotic is only a rhotic if you don't look at it. and the "water" example is even funnier in an Aussie dialect (provided it's followed by a consonant.. or maybe in pausa, but i noticed Aussies tend to use a preemptive linking R)
fun fact: in brazillian portuguese [h] and [x] are rhotics, the reason for this is that the original was [ʁ] became [χ] which later on turned into [x] and [h]
There are actually two "r"s in French! Well, actually, only one, but some people pronounce it differently. Usually, it's produced at the top of the palate, but it can also be produced at the attachment of the tongue to the throat. The best example of that? Go listen to Édith Piaf, especially "La foule" or of course "Je ne regrette rien"
@@nekhumonta Depends on where you are. The Dutch R is either a uvular trill or an alveolar trill, but if you go to Amsterdam you'll hear more people use the English R, probably on account of it being the closest to England.
@@LennyQUMFIFThat's interesting. I've never met a native English speaker who struggled with common English 'R' sounds but you're the second native Spanish speaker who admitted to difficulty with pronouncing Spanish 'R'. Still the aforementioned person was recognizable as Mexican even when speaking to other Spanish speakers.
An interesting thing about the rhotic /ɽ/ (and its aspirated form) is that in devanagari, they are represented by adding a dot below the letter for d (and of course, the letter for its aspirated form), which implies that they must be linked somehow. Now, the two sounds don't sound related at all for an English speaker, but the thing is, the d sound in most Indian languages is a retroflex d (ɖ). If you look at the tongue positioning for the two sounds, /ɽ/ is basically /ɖ/, but with the tongue very slightly further back and not touching the roof of your mouth. Thus, if you ask a Hindi (or any other language having these sounds) speaker, that person would say that the sounds /ɽ/ and /ɽʱ/ are much closer to d and dh (ɖ and ɖʱ), than to any form of an r sound.
One thing that contributes to it is origin and writing system. The use of the Latin character Rr long evolved in its descendants in terms of phonology as other languages who borrowed the writing system did as well as those who romanize their spoken languages. The French R used to be much similar to the Spanish and Italian /r/, and we can see a remnant of that in one of its dialects. It just so happened to be similar to the Arabic phone because it evolved that way but the spelling pretty much remained an Rr. Eurocentrism? Probably?
It's strange when I read something in Russian (I'm learning Russian) And the letters " п ", " р " and " г " Appears next to each other, I always end up reading it wrong lol
in other words, rhotic is where linguists decided to cal it a night because they had a life to which return and lumped r sounds amd all others they hadn't well defined yet in that bag
Can [d] be rhotic? [d] and [ɾ] in Tagalog were allophones in the Philippines' pre-Hispanic period. In the affixation of native Tagalog words, [d] becomes [ɾ] between vowels (dami -> marami, dinig -> dinggin -> diringgin, doon -> paroroonan, hangad -> hangarin, hatid -> hinatiran, talikod -> talikuran, sunod -> sunurin).
not really on a personal level more of a culture or society wide thing if the teachers of x language teach the students to think that a rhotic sound is an r sound or not is what determine less of individuals thinking in different ways
The auto - aro example you gave sounds a little off to me as an Spanish speaking, but I definitely agree with the premise, there are many cases where the English d sounds like an r to me.
Even after many years of speaking English, my English R sounds often like a W, but I mastered the German, French and (EU) Portuguese R quite fast Make it make sense
Southern Vietnamese People used to commonly use the French R in the Colonial time when Vietnameses just start to get used to the Vietnamese latin alphabet.Nowaday, only a little southern Vietnameses in the rural areas , especially the elderly people , pronounce the r like French r .(Standard Vietnamese use the R sound that is similar to English R.)
could you also include the language where the R is more of a mixed R and L sound? off the top of my head, ones like Pacific Island languages and some East Asian ones too!
Well, it ain’t pronounced like the English ‘r’, so that spelling would never work in English. And the ending ‘er’ is also not the same in Spanish either, so it wouldn’t be pronounced ‘water’ in either language.
Today I learned that Arabic غ is also considered rhotic. I always thought only ر fits that. So Arabic has a superpower that it recognizes 2 distinct rhotic phonemes, while CJK is the opposite, having the handicap of not distinguishing Ls and Rs.
I find it really funny when people think learning about things is supposed to make them *more* straightforward and simpler to comprehend. In reality education is more like giving you the tools neccessary to understand when your confusion is justified, and when you just need to do some more reasearch.
The same applies with Urdu and Hindi. In Urdu, the letter ڑ is thought to be a retroflex 'R' sound, but in hindi; the same sound is written in the letter ड़ which is thought to be a retroflex sound of the retroflex D letter, which is ड
Rhotic is a manner of articulation. If your tongue or "tonglet" (that thing in the back of the mouth, I don't remember the name) vibrates, then it's rhotic, a single flap also counts. True rhotic are Spanish ere, erre, Arabic ra, r in any Slavic language, Italian and Romanian r, Greek r. English has no rhotic consonants. The closests is the American flap. It is rhotic. Linking r is kinda rhotic. American r in nurse is an approximant, not rhotic. Room is not rhotic. It's an approximant. French r is sometimes rhotic, sometimes not depending on the dialect and/or position of the letter r. When it's like arabic ghain, it's not rhotic. But when it's like in Mireille Mathieu's songs, it's rhotic, far from the Arabic fricative ghayn.
@@cubing7276 , they are not rhotic at all. Both are voiceless fricatives by manner of articulation. Rhoticity is not defined by the letter but by the way you pronounce the actual sound. Rhotic r developed into fricative x and h in Portuguese. First the rhoticity must have shifted from the tip of the tongue (the tip of the tongue still the case in Spanish, Italian and Romanian for example) to the "tonglet" at the back of the mouth. Then that rhotic lost its rhoticity (doesn't flap any more) and modern Brazilians use fricative x and h instead. The Portuguese in Europe still use the back-of-mouth rhotic r although might shift to a fricative as well. Rhoticity is characterized by a single or multiple flaps. Using the term "a rhotic accent" for American English is somewhat misleading. There's no rhoticity in car, far, nurse. The tongue is still, just slightly curves backwards (and is not curved in British English). But the term stuck. Both British and Anerican English can be rhotic when r comes between vowels: carry, sorry, barista. R is pronounced with a flap (then it's rhotic) or the tongue just curves (glides) back without a flap (then it's non rhotic). Word-initial r is also rather a glide in both English variants than a flap: room. French r can be rhotic or fricative. Mireille Mathieu's r is back-of-mouth rhotic. But most modern French tend to pronounce a voiced fricative instead, like the Arabic ghayn or a voiced version of ch of Loch Ness. "Rhotic" is often used to describe sounds that used to be actually rhotic but then lost the flappy articulation only remaining in writing like in American English and Brazilian Portuguese. I'd add German here too: für - the r here isn't rhotic, the "tonglet" rather glides than flaps. IPA uses various symbols based on R and r to represent rhotic sounds. As far as I know, they represent actual rhotics and some modern sounds that developed from rhotic consonants but lost their rhoticity, like r in car and für. So "rhotic" can refer to true rhotic consonants (single or multiple flaps of the tip of the tongue or the "tonglet"), to glides (of the tongue tip or the tonglet) and traditionally (but erroneously) to fricative vowels that developed from true rhotic consonants
Rhotic is not a manner of articulation, this is wrong. The IPA does not recognize a manner of articulation such as "rhotic". What you described are trills and taps/flaps, which are indeed classified as rhotic consonants, but rhotics themselves are by definition not bound to any single manner or place of articulation. Rhotics are a class of phonemes unified by their common attribute of being "r-like", which is a very vague and sometimes even contradictory concept. Nothing about the acoustic properties of a phone contributes to it being a rhotic, because rhoticity is at its core a phonological category which is defined by a phoneme's distribution and/or its sonority. The English /r/ is absolutely a rhotic, because it's more sonorous than the lateral approximant /l/ and is allowed after obstruents in the onset of a syllable, just as /l/ is (which is also why rhotics and laterals are grouped together under the umbrella term "liquids"). From a phonetic standpoint, English /r/ was historically a trill, and since it's articulated with a butched tongue, is acoustically similar to the retroflex approximant [ɻ], which is commonly the surface articulation of rhotic phonemes cross-linguistically. The French /r/, while not sonorous, is also classified as a rhotic due to its distribution, which is typical of that of a liquid. Not to mention, not all varieties of French realize /r/ as [ʁ]. In fact there are French varieties that even realize it as an alveolar trill [r]. Now, if French [ʁ] is a rhotic, does that mean that all instances of [ʁ] cross-linguistically are rhotic? No, as the original video said - not at all. Take the /ʁ/ phoneme present in Tatar - it predictably alternates with /g/ in native words and also occurs in Arabic loanwords. As such Tatar /ʁ/ is not a rhotic - phonologically it behaves like a regular obstruent. The Arabic /ʁ/ (as mentioned in the video) also doesn't pattern like a rhotic. This is also why English [ɾ] isn't a rhotic - it simply doesn't behave like one. Its distribution is very limited and alternates with obstruents (and many speakers of English do in fact pronounce obstruents in its stead - [tʰ ~ tsʰ], [ʔ], [d ~ dz]). This should make it clear that the distinction between what is a rhotic and what isn't is not a matter of how it's pronounced (which is a question concerning phonetics), but is instead a matter of how it patterns and behaves (which is a matter concerning phonology).
Other examples of unexpected phones being the surface realizations of underlyingly rhotic phonemes are [ɖ͡ʐ], [h], [ʋ], [ɾ̝̊] (which ends up sounding kind of like a short [ʂ]).
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