I went from 34" 500 spine 8gpi arrows with 100gr points to 30" 600 spine 7.09gpi arrows with 120gr points at 34.5# and my 18m crawl barely changed (about 3 tenths of an inch). However my point on moved from 35 yards to just under 50 yards. Re: bounce. Yep. I believe I commented that in your initial barebow tuning video. It's a pain. It's why the Zniper and Spigrarelli MAP rests are becoming popular.
This is a great comparison. This would also apply to gap shooting, I know it does, because this is what I do. I draw 46#@30", I went from a 500sp with a 100gn point at 31" long, to a 400sp with a 200gn point at 32" long. The shaft weight gn per inch, also affected my impact point and my tune. 500's were 6.9gpi 400's were 8.1gpi or there abouts . Had to move my nocking point up and then bareshafts were great. This gave me a 30yd point on, and dramatically reduced the size of my gaps at all distances. The extra arrow weight, is akin to shooting a lighter poundage bow, all things being equal. This explains the jump in point weight, for me anyway. Great video!
Hey Jake. Your experience matches my own. I use the longest arrows I can for indoor (currently RX7s) to minimize my crawl. I use much shorter VAPs to get my point on further out for field archery. Same bow weight. The only thing you can do to shrink your crawl any more is raise your anchor, which, if I recall your earlier BB videos, felt awkward. After all your years of Oly, I’m betting putting the hand on the side of your face and string beside your nose would feel super weird! Keep at it though. Barebow rocks!
Two things. I had an arrow/crawl combination where the nock hit my nose at one point. More than one time the pressure against my nose pushed the arrow off the string. Never had a dry fire but it was close. Sure did disrupt the shot sequence though and would be a disturbance on the line you don't need. Second. You are getting a big difference because your anchor is low. A higher anchor will not result in much difference in crawl. The higher the anchor, the less difference there will be because of arrow length. Great to hear you are doing State.
Alternative solution: higher anchor (forefinger metacarpal under cheek bone) which is really solid BUT gives you new problems: release and follow through and head tilt. Glad I could help 😂🥈🥈
The longer the arrow and the higher the anchor will decrease crawl. I wouldn't cut the arrow at all and I would adjust the spine with the point weight and maybe even longer feathers especially indoor. Feathers are your friend. if you're worried about wind short feathers are better.
Tuning for a specific distance, usually 18 or 50m, is doable, sooner or later you work it out. The real problems start when you have to tune for varying distances as in field and 3D
Thanks for these videos Jake! Try a higher anchor...that will definitely decrease your crawl. Good luck at your indoor competition! So happy to have you in Barebow Nation.
The amount of change in required crawl for different arrow lengths is heavily influenced by your choice of anchor. As you’ve chosen a low anchor, for good reasons, you will have a larger effect than most shooters. The bare shaft issues you see may well be shelf bounce, many bare bow archers (myself included) run the zniper shelf to reduce/eliminate that effect. Well recommended. Basically picking arrow spine and length is an exercise in ensuring a long enough point on - if you have that, which you do, the other part is ensuring that shortest distance is placed on the tab (that would be 5m!!). Then play as you do now to try to move up the shortest distance while still keeping long enough point on for longest distance shot. You are drawing a heavy enough bow with such a low anchor that all focus will obviously be on moving up the short distances. I’d heavily recommend getting a zniper rest to get rid of the bounce effect. That eliminates one parameter at least. Basically it acts as a “fuse” for downward pressure.
What about just tie on a very lightweight, nylon thread nock point, located at the 5 meter mark below where the tab measures to? That would allow other readings to be measured with the tab, but have a definite point to locate on for the close up shots.
@@yewahkem I wasn't aware of the two nock point locator rule. I haven't tried it. Kindly share the link of that rule so as I can read and even possibly experiment on a two nock point location. It might have some benefits.
I'm new to string walking ... but I'm getting more consistency now thanks to your guidance. I'm shooting #40(ish) bows, using 400 to 500 spine arrows (different lengths) and I am happy with results. If (at 20 M) I had shot your first grouping (all 2" below centre target) I would have been happy... I'm not as good an archer as you, but if I had been shooting for dinner, I would have eaten that night. There are so many variables for accuracy in Trad archery (spine, weight, point weight, FOC, distance, Modern Vs Archaic bow design (I shoot both) It's hard to tell where modern 'accuracy' overtook ancient principles (In history, archers were needed to put 'x' number of arrows into the massed enemy 2 to 300 meters away, within a minute)... or in the case of horse archers to sweep in and rake the enemy with arrows before withdrawing. Accuracy (to this degree) is a modern invention.... and I'm happy putting an arrow within 2" at 20M, it would mean dinner. Sometimes I'm still trying to figure out if my nocking point is consistent!!!
Yes, deep crawl without a drop rest is going to make your arrows bounce off the rest. It also affects crawl spacing at the shorter distances. You really want the spacing to be predictable and linear, meaning one mark equals a fixed number of yards, no matter how deep the crawl is.
Great insight. Especially for beginner barebow archers like myself. The only comment I feel could be useful was your observation about the arrow nock as a reference point which has proven popular in compound with nose buttons. To be honest, anchor seems like such a personal thing. As long as you (we) are doing the same each time with an anchor then we’ll see consistency (assuming good alignment etc etc etc). Thanks for the content Jake. I’m going out roving tomorrow during covid lockdown. Bought a 200mm foam ball target so I can keep my practise up. I’m hitting it at ~15-20m so that’s encouraging. Just need to remember the arrow lube next time! Haha
This confirms the change I recently made to a fixed crawl. I shoot 3D. It’s all a balance, a nice comfortable fixed crawl for a good point on distance all balanced with arrow performance. For me, I shoot a 1 1/2” fixed crawl with point on at 20m. Gaps up to 40m are not extreme and closer than 20m the gap under the target is very minimal.
This is something i am doing at the moment, i am used to 28" arrows and just got 30" set, the difference in crawl is about 1.75 cm on the string. Interesting stuff thanks for doing this.
My Barebow 3D setup (Gillo GT27/Uukha XX 46lb longs/48lb oft shooting Victory 3DHV shafts) has a point on distance of 97yd with a corner of mouth anchor. That means that at 20yd my craw is around 47mm, I tune for a 30yd crawl. I wouldn’t worry about the deep crawl 🙂
From what I have seen adding inches to an arrow to lower the crawl or point on varies depending on where your anchor is. A very high anchor will have less change than a lower anchor since the angle between the nock and the eye is very small with a high versus a larger angle with a lower anchor. So arrow length will help you more than it does than a person with a very high anchor. Don't forget to factor in the lower speed of the arrow when going to a heavier spine when shot at the same poundage.
Good stuff Jake! I was just discussing this subject with a buddy last week. Was wondering how long a fied bottom nocking point would affect his point on distance at 15yds. Found that .5in long bottom nock will lower his arrow 4-5in. Have you tried anchoring with your thumb knuckle under your earlobe. This alone would raise the arrow closer to your eye and remove the large amount of crawl that you are having to use. Give it a shot and see how it works for you.
I cannot wait to get back to shooting BAREBOW!!! Glad to see you having fun and looking to compete again as well, super cool... and good luck! Also, I had a good chuckle thinking again of that funny clip you included with Heather in her arrow video... after seeing you experiment here with literal arrow theory and tinkering with spine and length tuning for the purposes of taming crawls, it made it even more comical just how much you had to reel yourself in to simplify your explanations there. XD
Hey Jake, can not commet but like your demonstration …it will help me giving ideas to try and figure out my best setup... as soon as we can use the range again regular which is currnatly closed down doto the covit situation in Germany. Greatings Rg Bernd
The deep crawl is why I use a Zniper rest. It removes the bounce effect of the arrow on deep crawls. Having said that your crawl at 18m on a Yost tab seems to me to be excessive, but I've no idea why you have it.
I think your anchoring point is at least part of the reason for the huge crawl - I shot barebow (compound) with a lot of experienced archers all through the 90's and for the most part the anchor was the corner of the mouth (some would have to drop their anchor for 80 yard shots in an NFAA field round) but most tried to have a point on at as close to 70 or 80 yards as possible... while still anchoring fairly high on their face. Just my thoughts.
Absolutely 100% however I don't want to put tape on my nose and I don't want to lose my alignment I have with this anchor. I explain it more in detail here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Cwag9sQpFr8.html
Adding or removing an inch is basically like moving your sight bar in and out ( the more in the sight bar without moving the block the higher the arrows impact and the further the arrows impact a bit low) & longer arrow basically means that the overall weight of the arrow increase but the length of the arrow makes it weaker and thus putting lighter points so idk just shower thoughts
I switched to 8125 string from B55 and the crawl went from normal to extremely deep. Shoots faster for sure but with much adjustment my 20 yard anchor went from tooth with B55 to under my chin with 8125 string. Never thought it would go that way and don't really understand. 31" 500 spine carbon arrows. ... Thought about it. Just didn't think some extra feet per second would make that big of a deal.
I like your fancy sweater :) I love this camera angle @10:01!!!! It shows your draw so well :O I feel like I can fix/adjust my entire draw because I keep slapping my bow arm slightly, but at least it shoots consistently? lol @15:15 omg I love chickens, they're cute :O Also happy comments for youtube algorithm :)
In the same logic, I want to do the exact opposite ! As i install a Zniper rest, my arrows fall down, i shoot 30 m with my 40m setting, so at the top high, i can only shoot 45m . so i planed to choose one spine softer et reduce the weight of the point to crawl down .... hope it will works !
I am just a beginner, but shoot more arrows in your testseries! And try the Zniper rest and show us your experiences. I also shoot a lot indoor in wintertime with 18 meter distance. 31.5" arrowlength. 70"/34# barebow. The 18-meter-crawl with anchor under chin causes bouncing on every tested rest. The Zniper removes bouncing a lot. Now, will you, as a Pro, also have spine and bouncing effects by using different arrowrests with stringwalking and huge crawl? Lighten me up with another video...please.
who needs a hooter shooter when you have a Jake Kaminski. another excellent video. you really need to drop your bow weight my friend and do the same thing with arrows longer again. i know you said you do not want to drop your weight although if you are serious about competing you should be around 30 to 34 pound and 33 inch plus arrow length. you have a low barebow anchor which means a drop in bow weight. as unhappy as this sounds it is the best and only advice i could give you. stay alive and barebow.
I hear you there. I think at the moment if I scored I would be in the mid 270s range at 18m with minimal practice and bow setup adjustments. I think with a reduction in my crawl that will go up.
i was saying to my mate last night that if Jake Kaminski takes barebow on as a challenge he will dominate the barebow scene. arrow bounce from rest and looking for anchor and gap shoot around the 10 spot is something you will master easily in time with your skill level. no worries. enjoy your journey as much as i enjoy your videos and knowledge and if i can ever leave the uk again i hope to see you at the lancaster with the big boys. take care
Jake , just to give you some direction on how you can get more forgiveness on nock height I have shot barebow all of my life literally I won five IBO world championships from 2000- 2003 many wva state championships and placed forth in the nfaa nationals after a bow breakage. But all that said to get the best tune for barebow please hear me and try this you will not regret it. Use an arrow rest that has a launcher plate such as an hunter supreme or star hunter style rest this type of launch system will far out tune any spring or flipper style rest for barebow and will give you a much shorter crawl.
Jake! I’m lovin the new intro! I think lighter weight limbs would reduce the crawl. I’m shooting 400 spine 32” arrows with 32# limbs @ 30” DL and have less crawl. Although I’m no expert at all just a noob.
The absolute safest way to reduce the so-called cralw is to raise the anchor point on the face. And then determine the nocking point. Then you get down as far as 18m. how far down the string do you get in 5m? My assessment is that if you move your anchor up about 12 - 15 mm (the index finger in the corner of the mouth) you will raise the cralw by at least the same amount. The way you shoot now, the risk is very high that the bow will become very unbalanced.
Nice info! But im shooting trads korean. At 30m im using 38" 125g arrow anchor at right-end of the mouth/lips. I can get the arrow point just under 9ring @6oclock. Wish i can get more help to just decrease my gap/aim off.
I’m curious to know what you think about how the button pressure is affected by longer arrow. With the longer arrows the button affect the arrow further from the tip of the arrow. Which means the button would be closer to the node point as the arrow oscillates.
I'm thinking of looking into victory vap's. 30.5 inch or maybe even 30 microdiameter and start playing with point weight & their fact weight system. get one spine stiffer & get it to tune by adding weights. A heavier arrow should technically minimize wind drift aswell while keeping the same size & reducing it's lenght overall. Right now i feel like i'm shooting spears at full lenght but they tune so ehhh?
Why not just take a higher anchor? It would massively reduce your crawl and it would make a proper barebow head tilt easier, thus reducing your left-to-right variability.
Because I refuse to wear tape on my nose and this anchor I can maintain my alignment that I use in recurve. Guess I'm not a die hard haha... I explain it more in depth here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Cwag9sQpFr8.html
Also, I get great string alignment/sight picture with this anchor without having to crank my head too much. I don't seem to have much of a left to right problem, or at least the groups are relatively round at the moment. The High anchor is just so uncomfortable and I don't see the repeatability in my draw length based on always fighting the improper alignment. However 45ish# draw weight might have something to do with it. I suppose if I dropped down to 38# like many are, it would help a lot as well.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery 45 isn't too low. A lot of the swedes (one of the top barebow countries) shoot around 50lbs. I don't know if you intend on shooting competitively, but if you are that Olympic anchor might be a big hindrance.
Its hardly my olympic anchor, but I can adjust the bow to suit my needs I am sure of that. Many ways to shoot a bow and do it well. Archery is beautiful that way.
one month into a competition is a bit close but I´d say try a zniper rest. it gets rid of "deep crawl bounce". you might get a false reading on your spine/crawl/arrowlength due to the arrow bouncing off the rest and by crawling deeper you just exaggerate the bounce. also, 44# might be too much with your low anchor contributing to the whole isssue. i shoot (indoors) 38# with a higher anchor and crawl much less. i´m sure if you have a chat with JD3 or Dillinger you´ll be on track much faster.
Edit: It looks like the long marks on a Yost tab are 5mm apart. The half marks at 2.5mm. I use a home made tab with index marks at 2mm. I normally shoot outdoor arrows X10 290gn out of a 36# barebow for point on of 50m. Purchased Indoor arrows RX7 21-525 with 120gn point. Started at full-length arrow, then cut off from point end to shorten and stiffen arrow. Shooting at 18m I had the following results, with 30" arrow getting close to tuned. 0mm crawl, arrow 33” 452gn 3mm crawl, arrow 31.5” 437gn 6mm crawl, arrow 30" 422gn
I have been observing that the lower limbs of bows shooting Barebow normally are significantly more bent. My 68" SF Premium Carbon (lower) limbs busted after 2 years of shooting (my draw length is 27"). I'm wondering if using longer limbs and tillering the limbs more extremely could rectify this problem. I hope you would address this issue in the near future...
Especially for indoors longer Fletch or feathers would give you a shorter crawl (slow the arrow and stiffen it a little) ? My vague memories of the compound barebow and bowhunters efforts to achieve the same things .
Thanks for documenting this while you figure stuff like this out, it really helps me trouble shoot my own problems! Side question, which fletchings are you using, looks like gateway rayzr but not sure?
A while back I did a calculation on point on vs arrow length and posted on TT and AT. I have also experiment with different arrow rest base height in my traditional arrow rest.
Great stuff. I want to start with barebow, but currently shoot trad korean thumbdraw. Have seen some asiatic thumbdraw archers starting to use 40 inch arrows. Look at YT 2019 GAA open traditional gold medal match.... maybe something to try...
Interesting that you can string walk in the US, presumably for comps, as in the UK field you’re not allowed, a finger always has to touch a nocking point...
Watching you shoot, if you lower your anchor point to the bend in the jaw line and first knuckle of the thumb on the bend in the jawline your crawl will be a lot higher nearer the nock.
Yeah that is true, but brings on a lot of problems I don't want to deal with. I can adjust my bow to suit me I am sure.. I explain my position more in depth here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Cwag9sQpFr8.html
many (more like most) people have their 5m mark where you have you 18m...that insanely low for 18m. I suppose it has to do with how many lbs you're shooting...perhaps? many don't usually go above 40#. heck, due to draw shoulder injury I had to go back to my very first limbs, 34#, and they could still reach 50m. the norm anyway is between 35# and 40# for BB. as some others have said, a Zniper, or other magnetic rests with vertical movement (Gabriel Bidrop, Spigarelli M.A.P.) could reduce crawls, but only to an extent. it could work. with a normal rest I had my 5m mark more or less where yours 18m is on the Yost, with the Zniper now they about 4 or 5 big lines above (still on the Yost large tab) while the 18/20 meters and above are unchanged. it has literally compressed the short distance crawls.
Ill be trying the Zniper soon. Also my anchor has most of the reason my crawl is so deep. But I am shooting somewhere in the 200-210fps range with those 500 arrows. They are screaming.
Im just getting into Recurve and have been practicing strictly instinctual shooting. I’ve been doing really well, but I want to bring in my accuracy and start practicing barebow while implementing crawling techniques. Any recommendations for a new barebow bow? I want separate bows for different applications. Looking for a good starter bow around $500 or so.
I shoot a completely different setup indoor then outdoor. Indoor I shoot longer heavier arrows and slightly lighter limbs. All of this to get a shorter point on so my crawl is shorter. A way to shorten your crawl with your current setup for indoor is to not aim at the center. Instead aim at the bottom of the red or bottom of the blue or even the bottom of the target and adjust your crawl to hit the center from there.
Do you try to reduce your crawl to zero indoors? I consider using 2315 arrows and 250 grain points almost full length, but its so slow and not as forgiving as OLY recurve as the stabilizers help hold the bow still while the arrow is coming out of it.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery I did try that a few years ago and had a lot of accuracy issues lobbing slow heavy arrows at the target. Faster arrows are Mor forgiving of draw inconsistencies and I fight collapsing at anchor.
I would cut the 350 to 30" and use up to 200gr tip to get a heavier arrow for the 20 yards game. I would not use these arrows for field though, but cutting to 30" and additional 60gr for fieldpoint should reduce your crawl even more. I am shooting #48 on fingers and 30" 300s with 200gr tip for indoor / 20 yards
@@JakeKaminskiArchery For 20 yards, most of the barebow shooters use the heaviest arrow they can tune for the bow to get that consistency on grabbing the string you are talking about. Since I like thin/small diameter arrows - it is easier to look through the point at the target - and heavy-ish draw weight bow I am limited in arrow weight, but still I am trying for the heaviest I can get to obtain a #6 (big) line from the top on Large Yost crawl at 20 yards. You can try - one arrow cut to 30" POB is not quite a loss.
For me, what I would do to make the difference is up the spine of the arrow and add a heavy point like 250 - 300 grain which would allow me to raise my bow I am a gap shooter rather than a string walker but it should still work the same these were screw in points so easier to find length and weight balance. I immediately found that high foc increased accuracy I am nowhere near your level but improved my archery. Am I correct that you are using a 45lb bow? I use 44lb for a 100 yards with good results but 20 yards bad, when using 32lb for 20 yards brilliant results.
First of all, I'm not a barebow shooter. Regardless, I am wondering if arrow stiffness affects the nocking point height due to the induced flex from crawling. Just an educated guess.
Hi, thanks for sharing. May I ask? Are your long crawls even? I mean the same distance on the tab from 10 to 15 to 20 to 25. Most of the problems with long crawls for short distances came from a rest that is too hard like the ZT the distance on the tab is increasingly longer as you go down. The Gabriel BiDrop and the Zniper reduce the crawl by about haft an inch. Even the old Super-Rest reduces the crawl (the arrow does not bounce). Another option is to use GAP+stringwalking. JMHO
I'm wondering, since a longer arrow would mean that the arrows' nodal point shifting to the front away from the plunger, wouldn't it affect the arrow flight by reducing effectiveness of the plunger? Why not just use a heavier arrow shaft (with similar spine and length)?
The heavier arrow changes the characteristics of the bow shot feel and the time the arrow is in the bow. Since I am still figuring out BB I figured the less time the arrow is in the bow is a good thing at this point.
From watching the vid i would with the 450 because it looks more accurate by the way i'm not a barebow shooter i shoot olympic recurve but i'm just tell you what i see
I don’t get why setting a negative tiller don’t remove the bounce effect of the arrow with deep crawl (assuming a right nocking point). Could anyone shed a little light?
Strange how you didn't get a reply from the string walkers here about tiler. I thought it was a good question. I definitely don't have the string walking experience to give a qualified answer but I have heard that it's normal to have negative tiler for string walking.
Ok... forgive me for the noob question... but by walking down the string you are effectively lifting your nocking point, correct? Why not just use another string with a different nocking point set higher for that particular (indoor) range and then you can shoot from the 'centre' point.
Forget to mention I use a separate strings for 50m, 18m and 3D with nocks fixed for each distance and arrow. For 18m I tend to use full length or close to full length arrows. For 50m I cut my arrows as short as possible for the best point on.
I think so yes, but dramatically changes the feel of the bow and depending on your crawl consistency and bow arm strength, that can cause inconsistency in grouping.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery tks, not used to seeing arrows that long. I'm using victory VAPs, 700 spine w/120 point, 33# otf...I think they were 30.5" shaft. (I'll change to 100points for 50m. ) And after changing my anchor point to yours-ish, I'm at 10th long line from the top on a Yost tab....right even with top of Y. Would have thought 40/45 # would have been flatter. Insane how you're soo exact with your marking between tab marks and so confident that the results are true.
of course everything you change at the setup, give a change on the landing point of your arrow, you must find out what you finding comforbel, how ever i wouldt advise you to tiller your bow a bit better, then he will shoot not so loud, en your limbs lifes longer. And when you use the tab whit all the marks, you are not allowd to shoot the barebow class ( BBR) in europe.
This isn’t the most controlled comparison. Arrow weight reduces crawls. 1. There was more point weight on the new arrows. 2. Stiffer spines arrows have more GPI, and thus weigh more. A real test is if you use the exact same spine/point and shot it at different lengths. I’m guessing that the results wouldn’t be that dramatic if you’re cutting an inch at a time.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery I totally get your real world reasons for doing what you did. I’m just curious how much of the crawl change that you saw is due solely to the length of the arrow. Your crawl is still crazy long at 18m btw. I know you have your reasons, but join the high anchor dark side, brutha. Your bow will thank you 😉
@@JakeKaminskiArchery haha. I can’t count the number of times I had to let down because I forgot to turn my hat around. Be you and have fun bro. That’s what barebow is all about!
Can't you just come down in limb poundage ? If you ran say 36lb indoor with longish arrows you would be about 1" clawl and if you go long outside go under your chin as per olympic style 👍
I could but all my limbs are 40# and all my arrows are stiffer. Ex pro on a budget. Trying to make it work with what I have. Plus the extra 10# cleans up the release ALOT
Eastern and Gold tip charts are all out. None of them are accurate. They are deliberately skewed towards the stiff side. Something to do with liability issues. Also, "crawl" is called "string walking".
