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This is why I laughed when Rhaenyra sarcastically said “what can either of us know of ruling a kingdom” to Alicent in episode 8. As if Alicent hadn't been a political advisor to Viserys for over 1,5 decades and a de facto regent with her father for the last few years, while the blacks didn't even visit for 6 years, and even then, they only came because of the hearing.
Yeah, because Rhaenyra wasn't the crown princess and heir since she was like 14... What would she know about ruling? Lmao Alicent stans will say anything about Rhaenyra😂 You guys really have no shame, don't you?
@@teamblack204 Didn't you watch the video? Rhaenyra spent 6 years away from the king and the country's political center and lacked a proper education and experience in ruling an entire country, while Alicent and Otto ruled the country as de facto regents. Yes, Rhaenyra was made Crown Princess at 14, and she (and Daemon) has some experience sitting on the small council; however, Viserys severely neglected to educate her. Just look at how she needed her father, who was so sick he looked like he’d been dead for a month, to get up from his deathbed to solve it. That doesn't mean that Rhaenyra hasn't shown the potential to be a good ruler (her suggestions and handling the conflict with Daemon in episode 2); her problem comes from Viserys not teaching her enough and setting a bad example as a ruler + the toxic mindset Daemon instilled in her
@@mariavi33 She spent 6 years away from the King in Dragonstone! It's known for a fact that all Targaryen heirs are put in the charge of Dragonstone for a time. Look at Rhaegar, for an example. So Rhaenyra didn't spent her years with no politics in Dragonstone. Just the opposite, she was learning politics. Apart from being in the charge of Dragonstone, Rhaenyra was there with Daemon. Say what you want about him, but Daemon is politically savvy. Don't let his ruthlessness and attention-seeking personality confuse you. Daemon was a master at symbol politics for an example. And it's safe to say that he also helped Rhaenyra with ruling. However, I sort of agree with Viserys' neglectful attitude towards Rhaenyra's education as the heir. Though let's remember, Rhaenyra was already his cup barer. She technically joined every single council meeting since she was a kid. She grew up watching political minds, including Otto. But Alicent... Not so much. She has a social charm and good with diplomacy, yes. But she's not politically educated. Otto didn't train her for that. Much like how Tywin Lannister wanted Cersei to be queen, and actually made her one, but never bothered to train and educate her in politics. Because in Westeros, women aren't supposed to be educated in politics, but only in becoming a mother and seducing and manipulating people...
@@teamblack204 Yes, but Rhaenyra isn't a regular heir; she is a woman who's trying to become the first queen regnant while having living legitimate brothers and obvious bastards as her heirs. Obviously, she shouldn't have to work harder than a male heir, but unfortunately, ‘shouldn't have to’ doesn't mean ‘doesn't have to’ no matter how unfair it is. There are many ways to describe Daemon, but politically savvy is definitely not one of them. He's a devoted believer in the ‘might makes right’ philosophy without realizing that if you push people too far, they will fight back, and he's a huge Targaryen supremacist. Daemon was so disliked that the incredibly misogynistic lords of Westeros preferred a teenage girl to be named as heir just to keep Daemon away from the throne. As for Alicent: In episode 3, we see Alicent giving political advice to Viserys In episode 6, we see that Alicent has been sitting on the small council for a while during the 10-year time jump In episode 8, we see that Alicent is still on the small council, and Vaemond Velaryon said “It's not a king who sits the Iron Throne these days, good sister. It's a queen” which clearly shows that she is involved in ruling the country
Absolutely. Up until the dance any Targaryen or Targaryen bastard could in theory claim a dragon. Like having that many people with a weapon of mass destruction is not a good idea.
Simplest argument for the Greens: If Aegon was king, he'd just get drunk while Otto, Alicent, and later Aemond ruled the realm for him. While Otto and Alicent were regents, the realm didn’t go down in flames, so they obviously knew what they were doing. If Rhaenyra was queen, she would sit back and let Daemon turn the realm into a bloodbath on her behalf, and she’d be a puppet queen with him pulling the strings. Seriously, if the phrase "King Daemon Targaryen" doesn't terrify you, you weren't paying attention.
We all know that the ones that ended the Targaryen age of power were the smallfolk, killing all the dragons in Dragon Pit was a 4D chess move, i have mixed feelings about that because its a tragedy that all of them died and dragons went extinct but i think that House Targaryen needed to lose their dragons, with them they had no match and could easily devolve into tyranny just because they liked It, that's not healthy for the realm, some could say that the realm would be better with dragons, Egg wanted dragons to improve the life of the smallfolk but that's like saying "this tyrant is good, i swear", i think that the problem of House Targaryen was that they started to believe that they were indeed closer to gods than other men, after losing the dragons the Targaryens should have married one of the Great Houses heach generation to create a sense of unity and make It harder for them to rebell, at that point incest wasnt necessary
Completely agreed, but I actually do wonder if the whole Aegon's prophecy thing was something GRRM always intended but hadn't brought up in the books yet, because if it was then Egg's determination to bring the dragons back would take on a whole different meaning.
@@HillsAliveYT and that's why i dont like the prophecy, suddenly Egg isnt descending into tyranny because he wants to improve things and his frustration makes him willing to do a ritual that maybe involves using a family member as a sacrifice, its not the evolution of a man that tries to do good but ends seeking ultimate power for that, now he is trying to save the world and its a shame that he failed, George has said that he would love to write a book with Aegon IV as a POV and make him more complex, with that some people are starting to theorise that maybe Aegon IV was victim, a misunderstood man and a wasnt as bad as other sources claim, maybe he thought that Daemon Blackfyre was TPTWP or he wanted to ensure that more Targs would exist even if the main family died, now the scumbag that raped his wife to the point of killing her by miscarriages is trying to save the world, same applies for Maegor, the prophecy turns every Targaryen into a tragic figure that tried to do good, and knowing George's way of writting im sure we will never have a lisa of who did and who didnt knew about the prophecy to make It ambiguous
@@MiguelSanchezDelVillar tbf and this might just be my point of view, the prophecy does not automatically turn anyone who knows it into a tragic figure because it begs the question of how far is too far in the pursuit of a certain goal, when do the ends stop justifying the means. and that will have a different answer for everyone but for most people (who are not rabid targ supremacist fans) the actions of the particularly heinous Targs like Maegor and Aegon the Unworthy would cross that line. There's also just the simple fact that the 'being driven to madness and extremes by the prophecy' problem could be solved in so many situations by them TELLING PEOPLE ABOUT IT. I get Westeros as a whole did not support the use of magic and were wary of it, but the Starks are RIGHT THERE with their numerous stories and legends of The Long Night. If the Targaryens could see past themselves for just five minutes to find people worthy of trust to HELP with preventing the second Long Night and stop thinking of themselves as the only people fit to 'save' Westeros they might have actually earned the love of the people and lords of Westeros to stay in power. It's not tragic when they bring the misery upon themselves.
Otto and Aemond’s plan to poach The Baratheons was also genius. It gave them near 100% geographical control over the south. They had the Reach, the stormlands, the westerlands, and Kingslanding.
LOL and it is a fantastic example of how the Greens are great politicians whereas the Targaryens are not. A fairly consistent issue with the Targaryen POV seems to be that they don't deal with anyone as if they're their equals, they come at any situation expecting to be the dominant power and act as such, whereas the Hightowers have gotten so far specifically because they do not try to be number 1. So the fact that Luke showed up to Storm's End basically being like "you promised" and Aemond showed up there like "hey you notorious warrior dude from a long line of warrior dudes, I will marry your daughter and you will have literally the most powerful single martial force in the world on your side named Vhagar" just nails the Hightower political savvy and the Targaryen political floppery.
Only Oldtown and the Arbor though in the Reach though. Much of the Reach was neutral, Black or Black switching to Green. The masterstroke was in controlling the Treasury, but the handling of Beesbury nearly had the Hightower Host decimated in war until Tessarion bailed them out.
@@HillsAliveYT Facts, yet again. At least Jace decided to make a Marriage Pact with the Starks. Low key, Luke went to Storm's End with literally nothing but Arrax. And a Dragon his size can be harmed by arrows and Spears still, as he's not old enough to have the notoriously defensive scales to protect him from them. As we saw with young Drogon in Mereen.
@@Miller09095 True, that was a blunder as well, and the Tyrells being neutral despite having the Hightowers as a potential ally as fellow Reach Bannermen was odd as well, though I suppose it's not the first time they'd do that. (Also, Shout-out to Tessarion)
@@Miller09095 the thing is imagine if they had to make it past storms end with Borros and the Baratheons standing in their way. Would have been impossible from the get-go
Amusing how the Targs were constantly dogging on the Hightowers since they took over Westeros, with Maegor and Visenya almost burning it to the ground and Aegon's and Jahaerys' "subtle threats" and then the Hightowers pretty much played the biggest role in their demise. Yeah the Targs ended when Robert killed Rhaegar but it was House Hightower who took away the only leverage that they had(dragons) and made sure that they would end one day. Funnily enough, if ASOIAF was to ever end, I believe the Targs will go extinct while House Hightower will continue to remain as one of Westeros' elite. The Hightowers know how to play.
Yeah I'm quite sure that's the case, the Hightower family is massive in ASOIAF and it seems very clear that the Targaryens are hurtling towards extinction.
@@HillsAliveYT At this point, seems like the biggest threat to the Hightowers as of the main ASOIAF continuity honestly is Euron and whatever he has cooking serving as a Diabolus ex Machina.
@@HillsAliveYT i don’t think so, I think house Hightower may be extinct quicker or at least a massive cleaver is coming for the Hightowers, in the form of squid man
LOL well I'm pulling for Leyton and Malora when it comes to Euron! And I'm thinking that he doesn't really care about Oldtown, there's just something that he wants there, so even if the city gets trashed I suspect that he might just roll up, burn everything down, and bounce, ergo leaving some Hightowers alive. Even if they die out by the end of the series (which seems unlikely given that Leyton has like a thousand kids), I think there's no chance that they're killed off before the Long Night.
During the Dance, House Hightower is consistently written with the idea that they use words and not swords to secure their power. They place values on the apparatuses and symbols of power, which is reinforced in the naming conventions of the two factions, then more overtly in the show when Otto delivers his speech about how Aegon has the conquerer's name, wields the conquerer's sword and was crowned with the conquerer's crown by the High Septon of the Faith. So naturally part of their undoing is written to be when Aegon II rejects this line of reason, "Thrones are won with swords, not quills. Spill blood, not ink", and sacks his grandfather as Hand of the King. Great point about how the Blacks are intentionally portrayed as complete outsiders in King's Landing politics after the departure of Rhaenyra from the city, with even their skilled political operators like Corlys having been detached from it for a long time, while the Greens are written as having been the ones actually ruling the Seven Kingdoms in the decade leading up to the Dance.
That's why I hate that in the show in ep 9 Otto wanted to kill the blacks. like, he had 20 years ( and nearly 5 before Rhaenyra got married and had her firstborn) to kill Rhaenyra, why didn't he do that earlier if that was his plan all along? Killing 6+ people right after the king died... it's too suspicious and doesn't match Otto's character.
Yeah, the fact that the Blacks just ditch court is an interesting insight to their mentality as well. I get why Rhaenyra did it, she was stuck between a rock and a hard place because of the Strong boys, but the fact that NONE of them seems to ever consider the fact that they could actually be usurped or straight up lose is bizarrely overconfident and seems to demonstrate how little attention they pay to actual politics.
@@yasmina3999 It does seem like part of the change in the show that has Otto Hightower make more of the less savoury decisions that both Alicent and Criston Cole make in the source material. I almost feel like Otto is given much more agency as a character but that comes at the expense of making him act against his own modus operandi such as in episode 9 suggesting the killing, which is in a way even more egregious when we see him return to it in episode 10 when trying with words once more. I do agree, such a comment would be more suited to Criston Cole, who had just killed a man in cold blood, had a history of violence, wished violence against Rhaenyra and lacked the empathy the show version of Alicent displays, than Otto Hightower.
@@HillsAliveYT It certainly highlights the mentality of the Blacks versus the Greens is one of entitlement instead of pragmatism, which I liked that you delved into in the contrasts of Daemon and Aemond previously. Rhaenyra expects the law of succession to be upheld, despite the ruling of the Great Council that made her father king being an omen of where westerosi nobility actually believe power to reside, because her father had all the major lords of the realm swear fealty to her as his successor. Furthermore, she thinks this will be the case because the only transfer of power she has witnessed before is the peaceful transition from her grandfather to her father, despite the fact it was the only peaceful transfer of power to have happened since Aenys inherited from Aegon.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah, and then they complain to Alicent and her father for Viserys' state, but forget to mention that they'd have known about Viserys' health had they bothered to visit him even ONCE in the past, what, 6 years?.
Oh yeah, I love that Otto has spent his entire life ruining Daemon's aspirations for the throne. I have a thing for underdogs and to see a mere knight and second son unabashedly defy this prideful, malevolent prince who thinks himself so superior is just entertaining as hell.
LOL the amount of conflict in the DOTD that can be boiled down to other people having completely rational reactions to the idea of Daemon in power is actually hilarious.
@@HillsAliveYTsomeone asked me point blank to name a male heir who was taken out of the succession. When I commented Daemon, the other person was shook because it wasn’t about gender.
@@pg1448 claiming that otto killed daemon's ambition is just like claiming that a musquito killed Alexander the great by infecting him with malaria . daemon could fly on caraxes and burn down otto's entire house like swatting a musquito
The Hightowers date back to the Dawn Age and have always promoted civility, learning, faith and prosperity in Westeros. The Targaryens are recent arrivals from an evil empire who seized Westeros through violent conquest. We light the way versus Fire and blood... Or the steady devotion to duty and good governance of Otto and Alicent versus the narcissistic self-indulgence of Rhaenyra and Daemon.
Utter rubbish . Andals were the same descendants of those people who were broken and beaten and chased by valyrians . Again to be ruled by valyrian descendants. 😂
I think of Oltown and Kingslanding as a London and New York City. The Former are thousands of years old but the latter are now the same size or larger despite only being 300 years-ish old.
9:54 Excellent point about Alicent having more experience ruling in the absence of Rhaenyra & Daemon. The Blacks really made a lot of easy, avoidable mistakes. Leaving King's Landing was one of them.
THE HIGHTOWERS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING!!! Like, essentially using Otto as a second son and elevating him to be so important is f***ing genius... Like yeah all of Alicent's children die but almost all the other Hightowers and those of Lord Hightowers line are safe and sound. So, you have a second generation from the second son *via* his daughter riviling the only targaryen line(Laena and Laenor dead, with Daemon and Rhaenyra bringing it down to one line, Rhaenys was too old to reproduce, Jacearys and Baela as well as Lucerys and Rhaena dwindling the line further). The actual house Hightower had everything to gain, the Targaryens had everything to lose.
There is also that. I don't think that they were planning it because frankly what Viserys did was completely unexpected, but the fact that Otto was just one less important branch on their family tree certainly helped things in the long run. Otto wasn't ultimately hugely important to the future of their house so if he succeeded then awesome, but if he failed then it didn't have a massive effect on House Hightower as a whole. However, the Dance absolutely crippled House Targaryen and literally destroyed the ultimate source of their power.
@@HillsAliveYT True true, however even if Alicent didn't marry Viserys, Otto and Hubert controlled the 2 largest cities in Westeros, looking at Lord Corlys and Lord Tywin's ambitions you realize that having your own line playing the game of thrones weakens your own house. House Velaryon went to a (different) bastard, and house Lannister is going back to an uncle or cousin?? Otto and Hubert were truly aware of the game they were playing and they played it well. I wonder who Alicent would have married if not Viserys.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871laenor or a lannister. Knowing Otto, probably a Lannister. He is a good dad in the grand scheme of things. He would have found her her best match outside of Viserys.
I can't with alicent and Otto, they are some worst reps of house, house Targaryen has cool style they just shoot selves in foot with bad diplomacy but high towers would be worst rulers of realm as the magic ones gatekeep vs help anybody and alicent and Otto have no special abilities. Also why's all coolest lore we get so little? Like pre empire of dawn, empire of dawn, top days of velaryian, nisa nisa and azor ahai, early north history, high towers or other non dragon lord great mages, meteors etc. As ps reneryah doesn't sit throne but high towers targs fail so alicent and Otto don't win. In end alicent goes mad so there's that. My big complaint on alicent and Otto is this, got comes out first and that whole series is based on political deceit and if you compare alicent and Otto to some got characters, some got ones made a great play at politics. And then because we know some high towers are magically gifted it just makes alicent and Otto lamer to me. Plus alicent is not why her children ride dragons, high towers arnt dragon lords
@@nonjabulomangoro1871what if it was into corlys family? I mean at one point corlys and daemon team up and it's annoying so to keep wealthy and other stuff a possibility is house valaryion, but that's just a named house we know
Overall, I can't even blame Otto solely for the Dance. House Hightower isn't to blame for the Extinction of the Dragons as much as House Targaryen. I mean, people often forget the "Greens" aren't all just Hightowers. They have Hightowers, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc, and most importantly, Targaryens as well. Them not letting the Targaryens constantly walk all over them with nonsense is something I admire. They've played the Game of Thrones in a practical, reasonable, logical way time and time again, and I'd rather them be my ally than an enemy. Shoot, I'd rather live in Oldtown than King's Landing, that's for sure. I mean, both times the Hightowers offered up one of their Lady's, the Targaryens screwed them over. First with Maegor, then with Viserys. I feel that, as much as I admire the Targaryens for certain aspects and people, they've fumbled their potentially huge beneficial advantage of an alliance/marriage with House Hightower. Yes, the Baratheons are also good matches, but man, I'd expect for a few Targaryens to recognize the fact that that House Hightower can trace their lineage and history further back than the Targaryens themselves. And with such a successful history, and them being the true power in the Reach (Tyrells are moreso the Political Face. Not trying to say they themselves aren't powerful in their own right as well, they certainly do)
Completely agree! I often feel like people of sense like you are rare these days in the HOTD fandom. I feel like Green supporters are so outnumbered by the Rhaenyra fanatics
@@JamesHatfield49 Yeah, it's a shame honestly. It's rather unfortunate but, don't worry my friend. Together, the few of us Green supporters shall evermore 'stand tall'. Our truth will *"Light the Way"*
@@thalmoragent9344 blacks are just retards who blindly follows deamon and rhaenyra without logic or rational understanding because they think they are the series protagonist. They seems to forget this is a grey story not some good versus evil kind of fairly tale .us greens are the real audience with the thinking capabilities who understand the story for what it is . While the blacks are just either deamon or rhaenyra fanatics or just plain dumb . " we light the way " Hightower superamacy 💚💚💚
LOL yes, the fact that people seem to think of Alicent's kids as solely Hightowers despite the fact that they're so overtly Targaryen is weird. The fact that the other Targaryens didn't like them doesn't magically strip them of their Targaryen status.
Imagine having more allies, soldiers and (literal) firepower and still getting your ass handed to you in battle after battle by Otto in Accounting, a Shriners kid, a drunk, a devout Catholic woman and the family bodyguard. Honestly embarrassed for the Blacks.
@@Piotr12396 because they were Targaryen supremicists who thought of themselves above everyone and everything. That will come back to bite you in the end.
Great video as always!! 💚 I love how you expose House Hightower's massive advantages compared to Rhaenyra's facts. Otto was a formidable leader and ruler. Also, the fact that the Hightowers didn't truly use Oldtown's massive soft power has always been weird to me. The second Aemond lost his eye, Oldtown should have used their influence to drag the Black faction through the mud.
I mean I do sort of assume that they did use Oldtown's soft power, and that it just wasn't super overt? I do generally agree though, like they held Oldtown and King's Landing, and while they definitely flexed their economic muscles at certain points, the fact that they were in control of the vast majority of Westeros' economy for a big portion of the war should have crippled the Blacks a bit more than it ultimately did.
The power of Oldtown is definitely a reason I'm not bothered that Rhenys did not burn the stage when she interrupted Aegon's coronation. If the show intended that to be the High Septon on the stage.....can you imagine the political fallout if she had killed the High Septon on sacred ground? Then Oldtown definitely would have dragged Rhaenyra's faction through the mud.
@@HillsAliveYT I think you might be overestimating the development of the Westerosi economy. There's every indication that it's extremely undeveloped and localized, we're talking about a land the size of South America with what, five or six major ports? It seems fairly likely that the Blacks and indeed most Westerosi armies are likely supplied locally or at most on the Kingdom level.
You could be right about the Westerosi economy given that they haven't even introduced legitimate banking into their world yet, however the fact that the Blacks were cut off from the two biggest economic hubs and had to start up a war from freaking steamy smelly Dragonstone is not a great jumping off point and definitely made things harder for them.
Edit: My following opinion is a slight misinterpretation. Still true, But HillsAlive and I agree 💚 Usually love your takes on the Dance, but I can’t agree with you here. House Hightower didn’t destroy House Targaryen. Rhaenyra and her blacks destroyed the Targaryens. The rightful heir, Aegon, was faced with an immediate rebellion, and the Greens did nothing but uphold the just inheritance. Otto did not want a war, he just wanted to uphold the inheritance of his grandchildren. Just because might sometimes makes right in the Targaryen history, that doesn’t mean that it SHOULD be that way. The Blacks represent the might makes right part of the Targs. The Greens represent the justice of tradition and inheritance aspect of the dynasty. The fact is, the Blacks blew a massive lead in dragons and great houses, and ultimately, their rebellion failed. The Blacks had a huge advantage, not a disadvantage. It’s a surprise that the King ever truly defeated Rhaenyra. “She was the daughter of one king and the mother to two more, but she died a traitor’s death for usurping her brother’s throne” - Stannis I Baratheon
Yeah well I don't disagree and I feel like a lot of what I said in the video is pretty in line with this, but even with all of the missteps the Targaryens made it still took an exceptionally savvy person/family to exploit it and cripple the ruling house so intensely. It really was a kind of perfect storm of the Blacks flopping in a lot of different ways and the Greens having all of the knowledge and strategy that the Blacks didn't which ended the dragons and set the stage for House Targaryen to eventually lose it all.
@@HillsAliveYT I still don’t think that Otto was trying to bring down the dynasty, nor attempting to cripple the Targaryens? In my eyes he was aiming for a Green outright victory. Not necessarily trying to get rid of a whole branch of the family, just secure his own side. Daemon and Rhaenyra on the other hand, would not have held back from culling the Hightower-Targaryen branch. Of course, Otto was instrumental in allowing for Green victory, but that doesn’t imply an ulterior motive of crippling the house. That is merely what circumstances of the black rebellion forced upon him?
Oh yeah I definitely don't think his goal was to destroy House Targaryen, the ultimate end of the dragons and House Targaryen starting with Otto is incidental, but it's still impressive how well he was able to wage war against Daemon and Rhaenyra when, as individuals, they were unfathomably more powerful than he was.
@@HillsAliveYT Then… I completely agree. A badass undoubtedly! How the Greens won with only 3 dragons (that actually fought) is amazing, and must be in no small part thanks to Ottos able ruling of the realm beforehand. Keep up the good work @HillsAliveYT 💚
I wondered why Otto didn't try to take the Velaryons to his side, especially in the show, where Rhaenys ruled alone for 6 years and clearly suspected Rhaenyra and Daemon of killing Laenor (I think many of them suspected). For example, to offer to betroth Aemond and Baela in exchange for support and possibly even a conspiracy against Daemon specifically. Considering that Rhaenys was ready in episode 8 to watch how "the greens strike their first blow" (basically, question Luke's legitimacy and therefore accuse Rhaenyra of the highest treason) and that Otto was ready to kill an entire family in episode 9, such a conspiracy was quite possible.
The Velaryon support of the Blacks legitimately makes no sense. I understand that Daemon is Baela and Rhaena's father but regardless, given what has happened to Laena and Laenor as a result of Daemon and Rhaenyra, plus the fact that Rhaenyra is trying to usurp Driftmark from the actual Velaryons, it's just genuinely unbelievable that they straightforwardly support them.
@@HillsAliveYT the importance of support not only in their status, money and navy, but that Corlys has the final say on the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children. If he said they were bastards, then what would the lords do? Would you come and make sure that they are really bastards and Rhaenyra is guilty?
If you remember Alicent went to Rhaenys with terms for their support. But Rhaenys busted through the floor killing a bunch of people with her dragon to denote that she was going to support Rhaenyra.
@@jjh2456 and that's why I didn't get it. Day ago, Rhaenys was willing to accuse Rhaenyra of the highest treason. She changed her mind only because Viserys appeared.We should not forget that she also thought that Rhaenyra killed her son to marry Daemon ( who Rhaenys blames for Laena's death).But she chose Rhaenyra, even though the king was death and couldn't protect his daughter again ( as I said, she changed her mind during the trial only because Viserys appeared), and Alicent gave her permission to choose who would get Driftmark ( she or Baela, basically). The greens didn't do anything to her, they even offered her/ her granddaughter Driftmark, which means they didn't intend to hurt her granddaughters.As I see, the only reason why she decided to stuck with the blacks is that she knew that her granddaughters wouldn't betray their father, "new mother" and brothers .But again, she didn't care about their feelings when she wanted to see how the greens were about to accuse Rhaenyra of the highest treason.
Going back to Aenys, it feels like at multiple points, the Targaryans could have made decisions to prevent/lesson the risks of BOTH civil wars (Meagor's rule and the Dance) but.....just like you said.........their overconfidence and belief in might making right proved their undoing.
Well and there's also the Blackfyre rebellions, they are really not skilled when it comes to preventing their family from going to war with each other.
@@HillsAliveYT Just realized there's a sad irony that of all House Targaryan's civil wars, the Blackfyre rebellions were the ones they did the best in. The ones without dragons.
TBH because I don't really vibe with the maester conspiracy, I don't doubt that they would have liked to see dragons gone, but if all of the people who were exploited and enslaved by Valyria couldn't find a way to defeat the dragons then I doubt the maesters could.
Kill thousands of men with dragons and slay your enemies like the Targaryens did, and you will be considered a hero. Take power by trickery, and you will be seen as an evil and manipulative monster. Otto Hightower wants power, yes. Like Daemon, like Rhaenyra, like Corlys, like Aemond, and like pretty much everyone else in this story. He is neither bad nor good. He is a second son, he does not have a dragon, he is not a Targaryen. He fights with his weapons. The reality is that the public is fascinated by violent characters, and that's why they will always prefer Daemon to Otto or Alicent. Because if wanting power necessarily made you a bad guy, then Aegon would be the only good guy in this story...
Congratulations on your Sponsor! That said, while the show did a lot to change my perspective on the greens, your videos were the nail in the coffin. Yet another excellent video.
One thing I can respect about the Hightowers is their competence. They saw an opportunity and took it. The moves they made before the dance were some of the best politicking in the story. As was mentioned in the video hard power only takes you so far. Yes there were the dragons but I have to remind people on here that Rhaenys and Meraxes were shot right out of the sky so the dragons aren’t invulnerable. Also the line “an exceptionally attentive accountant can still cut them off at the knees when they are not paying attention” made my mind immediately go to how Sansa “undermined” Dany by letting everybody know who Jon is. The point of all this is to show how that might makes right may get you the throne, but in order to keep it you have to be good at soft power.
Yeah this is kinda not understanding how during the dance they got destroyed for most of it and survived throughout bunch of miracles , but sure let’s go through it. When jace returns south, he does the dragon seeds plan, they take kl, aegon ii survived cause you still need a plot, then as the blacks have won, nettled runs of after receiving the least dodgy letter in the world , then someone sends a letter that causes Hugh and hammer ( who controls communications) right the Maesters do, without the maester literally helping weaken rhaenyra’s cause and the “ totally natural kl riots” the blacks win
Yeah this is kinda not understanding how during the dance they got destroyed for most of it and survived throughout bunch of miracles , but sure let’s go through it. When jace returns south, he does the dragon seeds plan, they take kl, aegon ii survived cause you still need a plot, then as the blacks have won, nettled runs of after receiving the least dodgy letter in the world , then someone sends a letter that causes Hugh and hammer ( who controls communications) right the Maesters do, without the maester literally helping weaken rhaenyra’s cause and the “ totally natural kl riots” the blacks win
@@Ule_blood well the blacks won but it was a hollow victory. As was mentioned in the video ultimately the Hightowers played the long game as the Targaryens were ultimately deposed.
Very insightful video. It's undeniable that House Hightower's power is very underrated. That being said, I think the incompetence of the Targaryen members of the DOTD period, is the major factor that nearly destroyed the Targaryen Dynasty. After all, the only think that could tear down the House of The Dragon at it's peak, was itself 😉.
Yes totes, and while the Hightowers have always been impressive, the Dance never would have happened had their bloodlines not crossed with the Targaryens at that point in time. DOTD was truly the Targ flop era, which is saying something given how many times they've goofed.
The Hightowers had for centuries controlled the faith of the seven and the Maesters. The Hightowers have the power to control the hearts and minds of the rest of Westeros without the rest of Westeros knowing or suspecting it (though there were some exceptions who did suspect).
Solid video! Throughout his fiction, GRRM tends to lean pretty hard into the old military truism that amateurs study tactics while professionals study logistics, and I think Otto Hightower and Daemon Targaryen are opposite sides of that "coin" when it comes to the Dance.
I wonder if the odds were really that strongly favouring the Blacks. Sure they had higher numerical support by houses, but most of those are lesser houses and of sparsely populated regions like the north or the vale. The Greens had the Westerlands, Stormlands, parts of the Reach and Crownlands and the two major cities. So the total number of troops raised could have be roughly equal. In dragonpower the Blacks at the start of the war have Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Vermax, Arrax, Moondancer, the Greens had Vaghar, Dreamfyre, Sunfyre and Tessarion. Wich is also not an overwhelming advantage considering the smaller Green dragons were pretty formidable and many of the black ones are very small and Syrax is a lazy cow. If you add the unclaimed dragons on Dragonstone like Vermithor, Silverwing and Sheepstealer Blacks crush on a landslide, but the Greens probably didn't expect them to be claimed by random dragonseeds. The Greens are the underdogs but I think they stood a chance. Also this makes it sound like the Dance was a Hightower attempt to destroy the Targaryens, but I would say that all of this was clearly completely unintentional. The goal of the Hightowers was never to destroy the dragons and cripple the Targaryen dynasty, rather it was to support the branch of the Targaryens on the throne that had Hightower blood in order to use the kinship with the crown to heighten their own power and probably dominate their rivals in the reach. In the end the house Hightower dismally failed in that respect.
Agreed, in terms of House numbers the Blacks clearly win, but in terms of actual Westeros population that is under Green control, they're probably ahead of the Blacks. Similarly, the Greens have less dragons but they have some freakishly strong dragons, and I don't really count the dragonseeds as Blacks because that move probably cost them more than it helped them in the end anyway. And I also agree that wrecking House Targaryen obviously was not the plan, the plan was simply to take power, but obviously the ultimate effect really undid the Targaryens while House Hightower survived and likely will survive for many years after the Targaryens and dragons are all gone.
High towers house was never going to win. Martin loves house Targaryen some of his faves characters are targ or secret targ and the betters of house high tower, as in not alicent and Otto don't help the world at all. And most things show how world around targs changes while they don't and not all in house targ were bad. I mean halena wasn't nutty. There's a few more that arnt. Also I know not every character can have magic but I wanted to see a magic fam that arnt dragon lords and we don't get that here :(
What destroyed the Blacks was Tyland Lannister. Where was he from? The Green’s allied region of the Westerlands. I don’t want to spoil what Tyland does, but if he didn’t do it, then the Blacks would’ve wiped the floor with the Greens. That’s why the accountant line in the video is spot on.
I do not usually comment on people's channels. But I have binged your videos and all I can say is that you are doing an incredible job. Love your material and content. Please keep it up. When I am able, I hope to support this channel.
Otto was very clever he knew if it didn’t get physical they would win easily and the blacks lack of presence in king’s landing was astronomical to the end means
Honestly even a blind person can see that Rheanerya was not prepared to be Queen Viserys completely failed her. He basically named her his heir had her as a cupbearer and told her to get married, but he thought her nothing about ruling or politics. And after she shoot herself in the foot. Honestly after Viserys lady dinner the only reason she left kings landing was becyse the book said so, they could clearly see that the king wax not long for this world. Rheanerya basically ran away to Dragon stone and never looked back. What was the plan here? Alicent was queen Otto was the hand and she knew that the Lannisters did not support her.
It's funny that the family basically find ways to make good use of Targaryen misery. Just a generation or so after the Dance, after Rogare Bank collapse and the ensuing economic fallout (which the Hightowers avoided by not getting involved with the bank), they employed the humiliated CEO and founded the Bank of Oldtown. 🤣
5:06 As remarkable as the Hightowers' accession is, I'm more impressed by Littlefinger's rise to power. In a previous video, I believe you've even admitted that he's arguably the best player of the game of thrones. Every time I think of LF, I think of that Drake song: *_started from the bottom now we're here._* It perfectly encapsulates his ascension. Unlike Otto, nobody sees Littlginger coming. Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Corlys see Otto coming very early on, but they don't put much effort in stopping him in his tracks. They know he is a threat. In ASOIAF, no one see LF as a serious threat, apart from Varys. I would even go further and say that there are other characters whose rise is more impressive than the Hightowers', including Varys. The fact that neither LF or Varys were born into rich, powerful families makes their rise more inspiring whether we hate or love them.
Agreed, Littlefinger is still the og schemer of the ASOIAF universe. I love the subtlety of his schemes, he kills Jon Arryn, frames the Lannisters so that Ned would begin to investigate his death and discover the secrecy of Cersei's incest and ultimately get executed, and this plunges the entire realm into war between the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons. The man single-handedly instigates a continent spanning war and nobody can even trace it back to him.
2:32 / 4:43 How did they do it? You've made a fantastic case as to how, the soft power, the education, the deep and long-established roots in effective governing, luck, etc... All that is undoubtedly correct. But in my humble opinion, successfully positioning themselves into having direct Targaryen descendants which also means dragons, is what tipped the balance in their favor. I don't think they would be able to achieve their goals without dividing and conquering the House of the Dragon.
LOL yeah, I mean their actions in the DOTD were impressive but there's no way they could have had a shot sans dragons. It's just wild to me that when you look at Robert's Rebellion it took half kingdoms to take out an already unstable monarchy, while the Hightowers managed to take on the Targaryens at the height of their power.
3:17 Yes, what the Hightowers' accomplished is very impressive, but wouldn't it be fair to say that they did not intend to take down House Targ a peg? That wasn't their goal. The goal was to rule through them, and to that end SPOILER....didn't they fail? And on the flip side, isn't it just as impressive, if not more impressive, that House Targaryen lasted almost 200 more years without dragons?
Yeah agreed, I mean I think by the time the Dance began their main goal was just to not get absolutely demolished by Daemon and Rhaenyra... and even on that goal they kind of failed BUT they didn't get immediately clobbered like most of the Blacks' potential rivals would have and their enemies didn't really win either, plus House Hightower outlasted House Targaryen and really didn't lose any power long-term which is a feat that a lot of people who have gotten into conflicts with the Targaryens can't say.
i think otto should have send daeron as a marriage candidate to baratheons and aemond as a marriage candidate to the martells because prince of dorne is enemy to daemon if dorne joined the greens they would have more power and they should have send all of aegons children in hideing for there protection maelor in old Town, Jaharyse in stromsend and jahara in dorne
If i remember well both the black and the green asked the martell in f&b but they refused (which is logic their enemy was destroying themselves all they had to do is watch😂)
@@debamlyabanerjee4067 the thing with Dorne was they didn’t want to be under dominion of the Targaryens with dragons. The only reason it worked when it did is because the Targaryens didn’t have dragons.
You gained a new subscriber I really like your videos and channel and think you made excellent points. One thing for sure the Hightower’s and old town has over the blacks rhanera is had the economy and political atmosphere on their side. They made important alliances and good with goverment and economics which is what ultimately made rhanerya lose when the people revolted on her. The fact the Hightowers came so close to ruling the 7 kingdoms even with the targeryans having more dragons and a bigger army is astounding. The greens could of played the game of thrones better but in the end old town still wins economy’s and politics win over military and might. I never truly considered just how strong soft power was over hard power. But I do think the green would be much better rulers than the blacks. In this case the pen beats the swords honestly had Otto lasted longer has hand and ameon didn’t replace him the greens might have won more.
Going by your strict final Question "Is House Hightower strong enough to fight House Targaryen?" The Answer is a plain NO. But the Hightower-Targaryen Alliance is another thing. Since that alliance has dragons. For all of Otto's intelligence and ability, adding to that the intelligence of Alicent. At the end of the day ALL come down to Dragons. Otto has negotiation power cause his grandkids have Dragons. Without them, it is matter of Rhaenyra and Daemon landing on top of the Red Keep demanding the execution of Otto and done. Dragons as Visenya (OF ALL PEOPLE) showed, are elements of soft power if used properly. Without them, no one would even bother to open Otto's letters.
A) the dragons were killed by a mob of smallfolk. They could be killed by a mob of smallfolk at any time. It just depends on how mad you make the smallfolk. B) Unjustly murdering not just a Hightower son but a two-time hand of the king would make a lot of people in the realm pretty angry. Take a quick look at ie) the rebellions the Lannisters faced after murdering Ned unjustly/basically extralegally. You can insist that the Blacks would just keep going scorched earth against any detractors, but that just brings us back to point A :) C) Even if they got away with murdering Otto, it would fracture any political stability they aimed to create in killing him lmao. High ranking lords in Westeros already hate Daemon's guts, that would just be confirmation to them that he's an insane, unreliable loose cannon.
A lot of people say they like got because it's a subversion of standard fantasy. It's about politics and people and not heroes and the like. But then so much of the fandom m immediately falls in line the standard fantasy convention of the chosen ones anyway.
Yeah, I can't blame people for enjoying the more straight fantasy-ish characters, but enjoying characters doesn't mean their right. Luckily I coincidentally only like the characters who are 100% right all of the time though.
9:29 Otto is often compared to Tywin. Some fans even say he's a Tywin wannabe. Otto plans to rule through his grandson, the same way Tywin ruled through Joffrey & Tommen. However, it's clear that Twyin has a tight grip on Joffrey unlike any other character in ASOIAF, because Joffrey is very difficult to control. I don't think Otto has demonstrated to have such a grip on Aegon. And I think that now that Aegon has been crowned, he's going to have even less control over him. That's a huge area where I believe Otto is very vulnerable, where Tywin never was.
Another excellent analysis with wonderful insight!! I have to pause every time I watch your videos, because I chew and ponder on your every word, and I take notes for my comments. Congrats on the sponsorship, I hope your channel continues to grow. It is criminally underrated! You deserve to be a bigger star in the ASOIAF community.
İ think that saying that Otto Hightower destroyed the Targaryen dynasty is a bit of an exaggeration. İ mean they kinda did to themselves. The whole point of the story is that the Targaryens are their own worst enemy. Also i don't think that the Greens were at a disadvantage during the war, if anything they were overconfident. They thought that all the houses would back them up because they would prefer a male ruler over a female one and they also had Vhagar the biggest dragon in the world. The Hightowers were overconfident and that is why they got burned. On paper they should have won the war from the start considering they had the initial advantage when Viserys died. Otto Hightower did defenitely play an important role but i don't think he is as smart as people give him credit. He didn't even intend to start a war in the first place and that shows that he miscalculated things.
If only they succeeded. I’ve said this before, all the while knowing it’s a highly unpopular opinion, but when we consider the context of Westerosi moral codes, Cregan Stark’s biggest mistake was letting Aegon III, Viserys, and Jaehaera survive. It was the best chance the lords of Westeros had to exterminate the Targaryens until the Rebellion, and Stark “Honour” let it pass by
This is not surprising this is the reason the Targaryens married other Targaryens. When Viserys married Alicent. Boom there you have 4 half Targaryen/hightower whit dragons all of a sudden they are on equal footing. And Rhaenyra was also not a full blooded Targaryen her mother was half Arryn. And to be honest Mealor, Jeaherys and Jahera was more than Valarian
I go back and forth on whether getting rid of the dragons is a good thing, on the whole, for Westeros. On the one hand, megalomaniacs with WMDs is dangerous and chaotic. On the other, a dominant power keeping the kingdoms from warring with each other is also good. Why? Because without them we get the War of Five Kings
The more I watch your videos the more I am liking the Greens. The show does a great job of humanizing them and I honestly feel sorry for most of them (Though trust me, I know they aren't perfect). The tragic beauty of this story is done so well by the actors, that it is ,making me dread the next season because I know what happens in the end.
I always look forward to your videos and this was another great one 🙏 when you think about it, it really is interesting that the Greens manages to do so much damage when the Blacks had the biggest portion of the nukes
12:37 Yes, the Targaryens needed help to rule, but as would any House ruling the entire Seven Kingdoms, I imagine. But obviously, not all rulers are created equal. I recently watched a video by *Quinn the GM,* another small channel like yours, that creates _ASOIAF_ content. In his video, he was ranking the Targaryen rulers from best to worst. To my surprise, he ranked *POTENTIAL SPOILER FOR HOTD* *Viserys II,* as one of the best, if not the best Targaryen kings, because although he was actually king for only a year, he ruled as Hand for many to 3 kings. He was also the first ruler to rule right after House Targaryens had lost all its dragons, which requires a lot of adjustment. The fact that he was able to do it successfully is very impressive IMHO.
Although this is something you haven't touched on, something the Dance, and the precursor to it has made me realize, it's that given how unpredictable the future is in Westeros, the eldest grand children of a king who are in line for the throne, should be groomed to rule while their heir parent is still alive. It's not uncommon for the heir to the throne to die before their ruling father. That's why if they have children, those children, the eldest, should be groomed at the same time as their parent. I would even go further and say that the two eldest should be groomed. You never know. In Westeros, I don't get the impression that the grand children of rulers are groomed for ruling when their heir parent is still alive. At least not with Targaryens. That's a huge mistake. In real life, Prince William was being groomed his entire life, ie 40+ years, while his father, King Charles, had yet to ascend the throne. Waiting for the parent to die, to groom the grand children, is a huge mistake. If Rhaenys has been groomed by her father while he was still live, to develop a closer relationship with King Jahaerys, maybe the Old King, would have named her his heir.
All of this. Rhaenyra was groomed but not to rule and that was a huge failing on Viserys’ part. Just imagine if he properly prepared Rhaenyra and then Jacearys.
@@jjosifovic alicent that crybaby? And if you think Targaryens cannot rule then you haven't been paying attention , there were viserys the peaceful say whatever you want to but in his reign the realm was in peace , jaeherys the old king , viserys ii , and Daenerys i (before they butchered her character ) , Rhaenyra too have became a fine queen if only her faith wasn't that bad , because she showed that she never wanted war or violence even though she was usurped , she wanted peace and that's the sign of a good ruler , a good ruler never promotes war . She was politically more experienced than alicent because alicent was never taught politics , whatever she does is what her father tells her to do , and nyra on other hand , attended many councils since childhood and if you people think she was passing her life on dragon stone then that's funny because she was ofc preparing herself and learning more politics and making herself more fit to rule ,
@@Piotr12396 Viserys wasn't managing any bit of the kingdom in the last years of his life. Oto and the small council did most of the work, and RT is good at politics? 1. Has 3 obvious bastards kids. 2. Putting a bastard on the iron thone. 2. Sleeps with the Kingsguard. 3. Marries her Uncle (who groomed her) that everyone knows killed his first wife. 4. Marries her Uncle right after her husband dies. 5. Rumored to kill her first husband. 6. Make last minute deals to secure alliances. 7. "Dances" with her Uncle in front of her future in laws. 8. Supports a law the mutilates and kills anybody who call her sons bastards. 9. Sends her children to secure alliances by reminding people of their oaths and offers nothing in return. 10. Planning to usurp the driftmark throne....taking over another house.... so smart and politically inspiring. Please tell me at least 5 political moves she did correctly in season 1?
@@Piotr12396 God you are so wrong it's painful. Rhae is the most politically unaware character I've ever seen believe she should rule a kingdom, and Viserys reign was only so peaceful because Jaehaerys was actually a fucking goat. Viserys sucked ass as a ruler.
House Hightower has nothing to envy of petty up-jumped Valyrian sheep herders. Reminder that the noblest of lineages, that of Tarth, Starfall and Oldtown, are the supremely ordained and blessed blood of the Great Empire of the Dawn.
Imagine possessing 9-ish Dragonriders, and you only ever use them en masse TWICE. Once when it was overkill and you had no risk of losing (the taking of King's Landing), and the other time in a naval battle that ended as a PYRRHIC VICTORY with one of your dragonriders dead???? The Blacks pulled off a disaster of Six Day War, Arab-Air-Forces-destroyed-on-the-ground proportions
I came into this show fully expecting to be on the black’s side and I am SO EXCITED to have found a show where I can root for a side other than the “protagonist”. 🐉 Also, I know a lot of people think that the Targaryens are the best because they have dragons and all. Of course dragons are cool. I want one. But the more I hear of this universe, the more I see the shows and read the books, the more I think “meh.” The Targaryen over reliance upon the dragons prevented their family from adapting and growing in other ways. In game of thrones, Daenerys was a very interesting character, but I was way more interesting to see how her advisors were gonna handle issues than she was, simply bc I knew she could just go “fire, go!” I was, however, interested in seeing the repercussions of her “solutions.” I know the finale of GoT didn’t make a lot of people happy because of how it went down. They did every character dirty. I wish they had made Cersei have more of a strategy than “invite people into castle and then watch.” Show us her Tywin side! Give her a ruthless strategy which backs dany into a corner and forces her to make a very dumb decision which leads to the destruction of kings landing. Most people can agree she’s a conqueror and not a ruler (a common theme with the Targaryens I believe), and up there on her dragon, she can’t ask her advisors for help. I think that imagery could’ve been very powerful. Also, it could’ve brought up the debate on “is she really responsible for a war crime since she was backed into a corner and had to quickly call a shot or not” rather than it being a “she just went crazy”. Or if they made it similar to Aemond: she makes a rash, emotional decision which leads to her losing control of drogon. Tyrion has to find an un-destroyed scorpion to shoot drogon down, Jon has to fight grey worm to save civilians, the hound goes about his business as he did in the show bc that was great, arya sneaks into the castle and confronts Cersei. Have her fight off guards and kill them. THEN if they wanted to do a character arc on arya learning to let go of her anger and not be so bent on revenge, she could’ve come to that realization right as she was about to kill Cersei, then she turns and leaves and as soon as she steps out of the red keep, BOOM. Tyrion hits drogon with Daenerys atop, drogon falls into the castle, destroying it, the castle falls on top of Cersei as she’s trying to flee (which I kinda did like in the show.. all that scheming and destruction of Cersei’s only to end with her prize crushing her to death). I understand the point D&D wanted to make. The first part of the final season was the big battle to save the world and the last is “what did it cost us? What monsters have we become to save everyone else?” Tyrion becomes a queen-slayer. Jon becomes king. They find Daenerys body laying on top of the iron throne with the body of drogon at her feet, surrounded by ash. The dragons are gone again. Arya sails west. Sansa becomes queen of the independent north. Jon hates being king but he at least cared for the people and is respected. (I think he should’ve killed the night king, or at least have killed the dragon, opening up the opportunity for someone else to kill the night king. I’ve seen anime more epic that what happened in the show.) I think it would’ve been cool for Tyrion to become a queen slayer and Jon the last Targaryen to become a dragon slayer, effectively killing what made the conquerors and sometimes tyrants. OR!! I would’ve rather drogon died in the final battle than rhaegar dying for shock value; if they really wanted to keep one dragon alive it should’ve been rhaegar. Perhaps they decided to keep rhaegar at dragon stone for safety reasons (since they are the last dragons, they probably wouldn’t want to take both into battle). Besides, Jon would’ve wanted to be on the ground with his men. Perhaps rhaegar could’ve been injured by the iron fleet (a scorpion pierced his wing so maybe he could never fly again), but ultimately he survived. It would’ve still upped the stakes without them completely losing rhaegar. Maybe at the end of the show they find dragon eggs on dragon stone, showing life goes on. I feel like that could’ve been bittersweet enough without betraying certain characters. (I also never hated Daenerys going mad, but I also don’t know if the Targaryen “madness” is actual madness. Greatness/madness could both be used for Alexander the Great, and it would’ve been nice it her ending had the same ambiguity.) I do however feel that a similar ending could’ve been achieved in a way that made sense. I got sidetracked dreaming about what could’ve been but back on topic. Hightowers are 100% my favorite house after watching the show and hearing about their lore. Their family history is rich and interesting and their members are some of the best players of the game. They’re the silent leaders of Westeros.
If my sons/grandsons were known, obvious psychopaths and predators, I would simply keep them far away from the levers of power- not to mention from my daughter/granddaughter. And you can't tell me they didn't know about Aemond's predilection for watching his own children live in squalor and slavery until forced to fight each other to the death.
"Their reign in westeros was not an easy or relatively LONG one though." Umm they ruled for 284 years. For context most CIVILISATIONS im our world last 250 years. The fact the targaryens, a royal dynasty, lasted longer than the average civilisation is quite impressive.
Well with "relatively" I was specifically referring to history in Westeros where a lot of the ruling families' reigns are measured in millennia and not centuries. I mean a significant number of Westerosi nobles have been in positions of power for 10,000 years, and the Hightowers have likely been around for 12,000 years. A lot of them actually predate the Valyrian Freehold itself by thousands of years. So relative to that, yes, the Targaryens ruling for less than 1/40th as long as some of these families who have existed in power from before the rise to after the fall of their entire Valyrian civilization is pretty short.
I stan this guy. I fail to understand 90% of the conclusions that the fan base gets from the same show I'm watching, including how destroying dragons and taking tirants down is anything other than heroism.
Shower thought: do you think Rhanera confessing to her kids not being legitimate would have prevented the Dance? I think Viserys would have gone easy on her.
I mean, yes and no? I think Viserys definitely would have gone easy on her but it would have made it borderline impossible to keep her as heir in that kind of circumstance. I think that's why she was so resistant to admitting it even though male nobles have illegitimate children all the time, and in that sense it would have prevented the Dance because she likely wouldn't have had a claim to the throne anymore if she admitted to it.
@@HillsAliveYT yeah. I guess I was thinking if she also disinherited them to keep her claim, but that would have been a very cold blooded thing to do since I don't think her kids with Daemon would get to inherit either.
@@HillsAliveYTt’s not just having illegitimate children. It’s the putting those illegitimate children in the line of succession that was not going to stand. People forget that Rhaenyra was saying the Jacearys, Lucearys, and Joffrey were her heirs and would sit throne. Aegon had many bastards, but he never put them in line for the throne.
If she admitted to it, maybe she should have her trueborn sons with daemon be her heirs to the throne and skip her strong boys in the succession. But in this case, the Velaryons might not be happy with that...
Brynden rivers an old god follower saved house Targaryen by destroying usurper blackfyres and was a better hand while otto hightower is the follower of the false seven and usurped the iron throne using the greens and was regarded as the worst hand .
7:35 Viserys was weak and naive. And Rhaenyra & Daemon had little no experience running the country. I'm curious. If Rhaenys had been named heir instead of Viserys, do you think Otto would be successful ?Do you think she would have been susceptible to his manipulations?
Otto: I did it! I kickstarted a process that ended up on the destruction of the Targaryen Dynasty! And it brought me andmy House almost no long term benefit! Wait a minute...
The Greens deliberately under used Aemond and put too much effort into Aegon. If they had let Aemond have the spotlight, they might have actually gotten the victory they so desired. Aemond was an outstanding fighter and cunning diplomat. Aegon was a spoiled, selfish manchild. I have no doubts that he would have been a better ruler than either Rhaenyra or Aegon. The instant he shot back at Aegon about marrying Helaena, saying he'd be proud to do his duty let me know he's the one who actually deserved to rule. Rhaenyra might have understood duty. But like Aegon, she let her desire to rule get in the way of what that reality means. Aemond and Helaena would have brought peace and stability to the realm as sibling/spouse monarchs. Someone really needed to have eliminated both Rhaenyra and Aegon in some way...
You must not have read the book. In the book Aemond is a complete, unhinged lunatic, who is extremely reckless, impulsive, overconfident and negligent. His mistakes cost the Greens armies and some of their major defeats. Meanwhile Aegon, you can say what you want about him, but he took his job very seriously and he pulled of some quite brilliant and surprising feats, wich cost the Blacks almost everything. In the book I would say Aegon turned out to be a more competent leader than his siblings with the exception of Daeron possibly. In the show they seem to have changed Aemond's character a lot from hot-tempered and unstable to dutiful and disciplined, it remains to be seen what the writers intend with him. Maybe he will have his book villain/madman arc, while Aegon against all expectation will live up to his role as king and grow to become stoic, brave and capable. I'd dig that but it's unlikely.
Hello, Great video as always. Honestly, Targaryens were never fit to rule more than one Castle or Household. This is the reason I hope in ADOS comes to a different House to power. I like Jon and Sansa and actually every single Stark-Kid but honestly, they are not a better fit to rule the 7 Kingdoms than the Targaryens, the only reason I think Bran could become King, although because of different reasons, is simply because of that Fisherking-Motive which I found in more than one Meta about the Show and honestly I don't understand it completely 😟 But the arguments line up and make narratively some sense... actually more Sense than Daenerys because her imagery is simple and in more than one Picture about the Apocalypse (I studied History of Art so obviously I would identify that Motive.) I wanted to ask: Do you feel comfortable enough to talk about that fisher king-Motive in one of your Videos?? I really want to understand that Theory but until now I didn't find a Meta that explains to me that Motive in a way that I can understand it. Okay, I am a more visual Person than a literate Person, so if I see Pictures I understand things easier. If you don't want to make it I understand that, it seems to be a very complicated thing. But well, maybe that's just me.
Yeah, well while I think that anyone can ultimately learn how to be at least a decent ruler or regional manager (assuming they're not a complete idiot), I think a fairly consistent Targaryen problem is that they outsource TOO much of that work and rely too heavily on others to do the work that they don't want to, and yet they still position themselves as the final word and say on whatever happens. That's a pretty exceptionally bad combo in certain cases, and situations like the Dance where House Targaryen was so overreliant on someone like Otto that it gave him the opportunity to have enormous power over them and the direction of their house show why. And yeah, the Fisher King idea is an interesting one for a video! I haven't dived into it much myself but there are certainly a few thematic connections there. And with Bran I can understand him becoming king more if he's actually becoming the new Three-Eyed Raven/Crow. LOL, one of the most obvious running themes within the story is that it IS a terrible idea to put children in charge of shit by virtue of their birth alone, but if Bran becomes some sort of all-seeing eye into the past then he would be able to understand the right and wrong choices that past rulers made in a very literal sense, and the idea of the new era not making the mistakes of the old seems pretty on-brand for ASOIAF.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree about the learning part, only after I posted my comment I realized that Jaehaerys was a decent ruler and he came from that House. At the same time, Otto never wanted neither Viserys nor Rhaenyra to become decent Rulers on the other Side both didn't Show any interest in learning that, so both sides at fault in that part. I actually wanted to edit my comment when my food for my guests is prepared and saw you already answered. So ... yeah, I agree everyone can learn to be a decent ruler but during the dance and before no Targaryen was really interested in learning that.
Yes, Targaryens will probably die out at the end (not sure what will happen to Jon though he is already a corps) but Targaryens will end up saving the world not the Hightowers. This is the most important thing after all.
Targaryens save the world? Where? If you mean in the show then I'm sorry but history will continue to remember Daenerys and her incestuous slurry of a family as basically incompetent insane tyrants. And thus far in the book there's no indication that a Targaryen does anything. Not even show-Jon wants to be known as one lol.
*Some Green stans:* Otto was an honorable man who wanted to avoid war *Otto to Alicent:* Go sleep with your bff's dad and make sure to wear your dead mom's dress too. So you can marry him right after his wife's death Me: Yeah, the most honorable man in the realm my a$$. As if it wasn't him who plotted to marry his daughter to the king so his future grandson would be the heir... Otto was the one who caused the political conflicts. He is just as bad as Daemon if not way more
I agree Team green says that team black arw blind supporter but when did we support any characters We don't support, we only root for them Because this show has no single character with a positive vibe Yess we like daemon, we like rhaenyra but when did we say that they are pure soul It's you green stans who always says that Alicent is a very unlucky character, which she is not , it's you people say that aegon is a victim But he is no longer victim of his parents bad parenting, he is a rapist
@@Piotr12396 Are you forgetting that Rhaenyra and Daemon are rapists too? Corlys and Daemon were canonically p*do rapists ( Aegon and Rhaenyra weren't)
@@ilbb7055 unwillingly sex is rape Or forcing someone physically to have sex is rape U r giving example of brothel 😂😂 That's not rape it's whoring Give money to have pleasure ,, If those whores don't want sex then wtf they are doing in a brothel???
To be fair, in nearly destroying the Targaryen Dynasty in this case, they sort of committed some friendly fire in the process though. They also largely only compete as they are intertwined with their own Targaryen princes. If they don't have the great equalizer in Vhagar, there's a fair chance that the Blacks do roll over the Greens and even more so without any Dragons. They made up the difference in dragons with soft power but they still had a backing of their 3 force multipliers.
Yeah, Otto wasn't lying when he said Vhagar was worth 10,000x the price Aemond paid because without her (and to be fair, without Helaena at least taking Dreamfyre off of the table so the Blacks couldn't potentially exploit another big dragon) they probably wouldn't have had a shot in hell.
So, I have this feeling about the show's attempt to be a commentary on society and the patriarchy, because in my opinion the books aren't really about that. The ASOIAF series isn't directly a commentary on modern society so much as it is a commentary on the fantasy genre, and how fantasy tropes have affected popular understanding of history, politics and philosophy. In real conflict, power is a difficult thing to quantify. History is full of examples where the side with less resources wins out, the devil is always in the details.
Otto was probably the only righteous man in the entire dance of the dragons lmao. He gave Viserys a heir he so wished for for the small price of his blood being on the throne. He distanced him from Daemon the hotheaded who if you were him would 1000% see him as a hige threat to Viserys.
Well in the end, they pretty much did. By taking out their dragons they started the inevitable demsie of House Targaryen. In the books and show, House Hightower is strong and whole while House Targaryen has been whittled down to Daenerys and Jon (show). No almost in it.
The seize of royal treasury was the main problem and it leads to her downfall. It was a Lannister Plan, Hightowers never dreamthat Rhaenyra take Kings Landing. Thanks to Tyland Lannuster
This is why the “accountant” analogy mentioned in the video is the correct one. The Blacks tried to break Tyland but they failed. Heck even Aegon III looked at Tyland as a second father.
The dragons were the equivalent of nuclear bombs that are being held and wielded by an unstable, entitled, conquering, arrogant, family who for every diplomatic and peaceful and logical and reasonable person they have they get two to three crazies. The dragons were the only thing that made them stand out and defeat the Westeros houses. Without the dragons the Targaryen family were like any other old and powerful family in Westeros and people could more easily uprise when they take it too far which they often do. The Starks, Hightowers, Arryns, etc were families who ruled for centuries gaining loyalty and power before the Inbreeding nuclear lizard family came and took it all over. Now they’re all equal without the dragons. Besides Westeros never fully accepted Targaryens because of how different they were from everyone else. The best monarchs were the ones who tried to assimilate from no brother sister uncle niece aunt nephew incest to learning about the religion. The worst were the ones who believed too much in Valyrian supremacy and were violent in nature due to their Targaryen entitlement. I’m all for trying to preserve their dying Valyrian culture but by doing so whilst ignoring Andal culture and the Targaryens were isolating themselves. Especially as they wanted to be treated as Gods not as people. I mean Hightowers for example cultivated their power and gained loyalty for centuries before Targaryens did. They held one of the biggest institutions in the realm, the Faith, and promoted duty and responsibility. Their saying is even less violent than the Fire and Blood, we light the way.
Targaryens lost their dragons after 100 years of the conquest. But still survived after 200 years. Targaryens still had access to magic thanks to brynden rivers . They might have lost the dragons , but still kept on surviving due to the magic of the old gods . And brynden rivers is the blood raven , and daenerys gained three dragons . So , house Targaryen isn't destroyed.
"They have managed to grow their power for so long specifically because they stay as under the radar as possible." I wouldn't say that. Reading fire and blood, you could be forgiven for thinking the hightowers were the rulers of the reach and not the tyrells as aside from dying in dorne House tyrell did nothing, whereas house hightower was festering a religious revolt as one example.
It would've taken a "mad" Targaryen to decisively end the dance & retain Power... Considering how well drogon obliterated kings landing I believe if had Rhaenyra had taken Syrax or a comparitively sized dragon in the dead of night and burned the red keep & old Town in a splintered attack the story would've been so much happier in terms of an ending for her family. Alicent was an idyllic & unstable pawn like her children, meanwhile the blacks were too diplomatic for their own good save daemon
Good work on getting the sponsorship! Just discovered your channel and I think the content range is very solid. I think book fans, show fans, casuals, and obsessive theorists can all find something to enjoy from your videos.
