How Paper Mario Lost Its Way (Until Recently) 

Video sources, since there wasn't enough space for them in the description: Mario & Luigi: Bowser’s Inside Story + Bowser Jr.’s Journey - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-C-dNKVTzZzI.html Mario & Luigi: Dream Team - E3 ‘13 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qlCfGXxZCrU.html Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Walkthrough, Part 2 (BeardBear): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qv5LnXNW3uk.html Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Playthrough, Part 2 (SullyPwnz): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1DOxjxlsqGg.html Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser’s Minions - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dK49yoDQ2AA.html Mario Party 9 - E3 2011 Trailer (Wii Official Channel): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Tv6PfwvEtjc.html New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Final Boss (iDeactivateMC): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ihei0ngHHdU.html New Super Mario Bros. U - World 1 Walkthrough (Typhlosion4President): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-V7fzSIEOSmQ.html Paper Mario (64) - Nintendo Switch Online Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mZU9sbtU0mc.html Paper Mario: Color Splash - Golden Coliseum Gameplay (Mario Party Legacy): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vn4vqVklw3k.html Paper Mario: Color Splash - “The Adventure Unfolds” Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7ZyerryUkoc.html Paper Mario: Color Splash - Walkthrough, Part 3 (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OP7S0Mg71gI.html Paper Mario: Color Splash - Walkthrough, Part 18 (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-yidE6Ujf39I.html Paper Mario: The Origami King - Announcement Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FX6DTLcWUdY.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - E3 ‘12 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3U2cTOnhMmU.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - Oct ’12 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-O6Yw8nMfJkA.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - Intro & Decalburg (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--FWq5nLcUCs.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-1 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JhhQ3syXXqk.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-1 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iVrpI6WNfR0.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-3 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gPLcn0xeBNQ.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-4/1-5 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zxBG6JlQ1w8.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-6 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eYrdMmkZEmM.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 2-4 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1jKZqEdXMn0.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 2-5 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lvlrKOS_oZ4.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-1/3-2/3-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tDFdVFQ8Sf0.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-5 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gAIG8EwBu88.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-6/3-7/3-8 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VeH2gVMHsHQ.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-10 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JZC3I1Hw9dE.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-11 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-whTkDbb63Ts.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-12 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-za89tQbn_3w.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-1/4-2 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wXLvzLEOkeA.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-3 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Yjbl6O_8em8.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-6 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4BKlt9j7qTU.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 5-2/5-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2UMtzptKags.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 5-6 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ai4atMrLcUA.html Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 6-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ANgVWcPcPjg.html Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 1 (Ninbanyan): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ptKmWnI-LNY.html Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 7 (Ninbanyan): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vghbbSj_5rs.html& Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 25 (Ninbanyan): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-evxZMZDejvE.html Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 33 (Ninbanyan): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fjdTTRPurSg.html Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Remake) - Sep ’23 Nintendo Direct Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8Ume5pSIcKE.html Super Mario Bros. Wonder - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-XvQNlGKNC6o.html Super Mario RPG (Remake) - June ’23 Nintendo Direct Trailer (Nintendo of America): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0r5PJx7rlds.html Super Mario RPG - Playthrough, Part 1 (Japancommercials4U2): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-V5hysWlz2UE.html Super Paper Mario - Mr. L Boss Fight (BossBattleChannel): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-3sCQzxsMQaw.html Super Paper Mario - Playthrough, Part 2 (SullyPwnz): ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-E4I3i1F7eQc.html

What I like about Mario RPG games is that the enemies in the Mushroom Kingdom are treated like civilians who shared the same neighbourhood as the Toads and be independent outside of Bowser's army. Not to mention that new Mario species can be added into the Paper world, so if Piantas appeared in _The Thousand Year Door,_ then Bonneters and Broodals should do the same in the future Paper Mario titles.

*_“If you change too little, it remains the same game. If you change too much, it becomes an entirely different game.”_*

Paper Mario was beloved because, despite the setting, it took itself seriously. Same thing as Kingdom Hearts. Just because it has kid friendly elements the underlined theme and messages were anything but; and that’s what made it special. Dumbing it all down just feels like an insult to our intelligence.

With Sticker Star, there's one point you didn't bring up that I feel is worth mentioning. Through different interviews and the like with developers around the time of its development and release, it's said that Miyamoto felt the game was 'too similar' to The Thousand-Year Door, and while it's hard to tell exactly WHAT he said to the developers, the different reports and accounts meant that for a while, a significant portion of the fandom felt like he was personally responsible for 'ruining' Paper Mario, if not Mario as a whole. It might not be possible to determine who said what or who was directly responsible for the way Sticker Star turned out, but another mark of the game's legacy is that it was partially responsible for turning one of the biggest names in Nintendo into 'the bad guy' in the eyes of burned fans.

I always found it interesting that Super Paper Mario was the way it was due to originally being developed for the Game Cube. So in order to prevent redundancy and to make it stand out from TTYD, they opted for the platformer with RPG elements style as a result. It just happened to be taking long enough to bake in the oven that development shifted to the Wii. Good video too.

Well,you've got to take a look at chibi-robo series...it's tragic...

It's clear that Paper Mario (and the Mario franchise as a whole) around Sticker Star's debut had an identity crisis. It didn't help that it was anchored by these safe mandates instead of being experimental and wonky in its own charming way. Do I even need to get started on the bevy of Toads, which ironically enough was the motive for King Olly's plot in TOK?

One thing that always seems to get ignored was that Thousand Year Door *already was* the perfect blueprint for how you could shake up the formula while still keeping the core experience that everyone loved about the original. Thousand Year Door's real innovation is often downplayed to defend the superficial "innovation" of the recent games

Honestly, the original N64 Paper Mario should have been remade for the 3DS, just like Star Fox 64, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were. That would have been preferable to Sticker Star.

I thought it was the fact that after super paper mario, people cited the drop in story telling and the lack of partners in Sticker Star, Color Splash and The Origami King.

Origami king didn’t bring back exp. Why am I going to stop and do a battle on purpose if I don’t get anything out of it.

9:19 - 10:45 This alternate version of Sticker Star gameplay you suggested actually sounds like a fun game. Different, but doesn't spit on its roots.

If it wasn't for Origami Kings pointless/convoluted battle-puzzle system I would have been alright with it (imagine playing Super Mario World and every time you stomp on a koopas head, you had to play rock/paper/scissors, answer a trivia question, and then do the hokey-pokey). Honestly, if we could get a Paper Mario with RPG mechanics and a decent story that's all I really want...add badges and partners and I'll be over the moon.

If we can suggest other series to talk here, I of course have to comment on Star Fox and how the series is basically on a slumber now, and how modern Pokémon is pretty much an insult to gaming

How about that? Another What Went Wrong video! I've honestly got no issue with that as it's a nice way to bring in some stuff to discuss about every now, and again! Yeah, it is a shame that both the Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi RPG series fell off around the late-2000s to mid-2010s (RIP AlphaDream)... And while I do think Color Splash, and Origami King were overall better compared to Sticker Star (despite also being worse in other areas at the same time), it's still disappointing that the PM franchise lost its magic around the seventh to ninth generation of video game consoles. But hey, at least The Thousand-Year Door is getting a full on remake (fully arranged BGM, and all, which I greatly appreciate, as some video game remakes just don't seem to take any risks, and just reuses the original one), and so far they seem to be staying faithful to the source material while updating elsewhere (even if my personal opinion on TT-YD is overall kinda mixed)! Let's hope that this is a sign of Paper Mario returning to its roots while also adding in elements from the modern titles that DID work! Likewise with maybe M&LRPG, and perhaps even a follow up to Super Mario RPG! Outstanding video once again, Delzethin! 👍 I'd definitely be down with you making more videos discussing video game franchises that fell off the mark with a particular game that caused so much controversy, like MAYBE Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 despite it being reviewed to death! Look forward to the next video! Keep up the good work! 👏

Thanks for the video! One thing I do want to point out that I didn't see you mention was the presence of the Sticker Star beta we know existed, that was debuted at one of their events as a very early build of the game. Within it, we see the beginning of the sticker-type format, but also see a Chain Chomp with Mario that acts much more similarly to the earlier games' partners (featuring in battles and having an overworld ability from the documented clips (it behaved similarly to koopa partners)). I can only imagine this extensively added to the vitriol of early entry fans after Sticker Star released so differently, as we _know_ it could have had things like partners, and that those elements were removed during production even after some had been already made. (The Chain Chomp partner is often alluded to by such fans to explain what was removed, and is mildly iconic of the loss/shift in franchise direction.) Adding to the knowledge we have of the screenshots and even some small clips of the beta build, it makes the change seem even more related to the statements made by higher ups who wanted it to be different from the earliest entries just to be different.

I'm not sure how much material there'd be to talk about, but the timeline of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon would be nice to hear about. Maybe after the pokemon presents around next month, regarding the state of the series.

Honestly, I think what gamers want is the same gameplay with a some tweaks and new ideas that don't strongly affect gameplay. Not so little that it feels like they only added like 5 things, but enough adjustments to make it feel like the world had evolved. Just like our personal day to day lives, we don't want massive changes all the time because it's overwhelming, we want just enough changes to be interesting, but not too much that is breaks us from our comfort zones. If you want a complete break of comfort zone, you pick up and entirely different game.

A part of me wonders what TV shows, movies, video games, etc. like Teen Titans Go! and the post-Super Paper Mario games would be like if they were an original IP, rather than being based on an existing one. Like, just replace all the copyrighted characters with new faces and leave everything else the same. Obviously, they'd still be bad, but would the complainers be as vocal about it and would they still find the same success (or lack there of) as their counterparts?

Yeah, that's generally what happened with Paper Mario. A sad tale really caused by a questionable developer with a baffling mindset. Other than that, it would be nice if you make a video dedicated to talk about Dragalia Lost's legacy as a game and to its fans. It's been over a year since end of service happened after all.

very nice summary and explanation of the „downfall“ of the paper mario series. And what a beautiful voice! Well done sir!

The fun thing is, there actually exists an indie franchise that has as its main premise that the gameplay differs, but the artstyle and aesthetic stays consistent. This franchise is called SteamWorld and is about Steambots in a Wild West/Space Western setting. And it absolutely nails that aesthetic with charming characters, consistent worldbuilding (steambots only die when they cannot be reassambled after getting scrapped for example) and a great balance between both serious and comedic tones. Its entries so far included a Tower Defense Game (sadly only on the DSi service, so currently unavailable), two digging platformers in Steam World Dig 1 & 2, a side-scrolling turn-based strategy game in Steam World Heist, a deck-building RPG in Steam World Quest (that handwaves its fantasy setting as a father reading his son a bedtime story) and Steam World Build, a city-builder game a la Anno Domini with a mix of Dungeon Keeper. The next game in the series is called Steam World Headhunter and is supposed to be a co-op third person action adventure with, if the trailer is to be believed, a focus on wild west shootouts and an emphasis on headshots, since bots apparently can detach their head from their body and attach it to another. I can highly recommend the franchise. The gameplay for each entry is simple but solid and most games are relatively short, so they don`t overstay their welcome.

Pretty good video. Gives a fine outlook on the whole situation. My only grip is you gave a half-truth about CS & TOK's reputation. They're not disliked SOLELY cause they're related to Sticker Star, rather they contain many of Sticker Star's flaws. Mainly the odd Creative and Fun Limitation that don't help the games, as well as the niche-at-best Combat systems which make up a good chunk of the game. If those problems weren't present, more people probably wouldn't have been bothered by the Sticker Star roots.

love your channel, glad to see it reaching its arms out

Like the trailer for the Thousand Year Door remake itself, a nuanced look at what didn’t work with modern Paper Mario AND WHAT DID!? Truly a miracle this fanbase deserves. I love your content entirely because, regardless of topic, you keep things fair in pointing out strengths and weaknesses; give a thoughtful and civil analysis regardless of the subject matter. And yeah, I am a classic Paper Mario fan. The first two are some favorite games for me, and Super is up there with the first two Paper Mario games in terms of quality, since the gameplay was fun, and story felt perfectly in line with the others. I can see a lot of Sticker Star’s flaws more clearly now, but I just had fun with it on release. And Color Splash, after giving it a chance, was a good step forward. Never played Origami King since it just felt my issues with the series’ direction by that point weren’t ever going to be addressed- namely, the lack of series consistency and the half-hearted RPG mechanics that meant nothing plus the lack of interesting characters- but watching it, I can see the quality is even higher. Which all of that is to say I can see the positive parts of modern Paper Mario. I’m hopeful the series can move forward doing things closer to the originals while being a bit more experimental like modern titles. I never wanted the series to stay the same as TTYD every release, I just want the series to be consistent moving forward.

The fact that they started paper Mario remakes with TTYD is amazing, but also kind of concerning, what about Super Paper Mario and 64? 64 especially could use more modern adjustments to the gameplay and better visuals, though it would be pretty hard to maintain the charm of those original designs when smoothed out

Another note worth mentioning. Prior to Sticker Star, the “Paper” moniker was simply denoting the art style. There was little to no mention or reference to the characters and world being paper or other materials. It was a real world and paper was the medium in which it was presented to the player. Every game beginning with Sticker Star has hyper fixated on the arts and crafts theming, and that is just not relevant to what the first three games were about at all.

It all went downhill after ttyd. Mario rpg, paper mario and ttyd were awesome

"Trying something new" would be fine if it wasn't so actively anti-fun the way Sticker Star was; did no one on the team say "hey, requiring exactly 1 specific Thing to beat a boss with no advance clues is obtuse and unfair, let's not do that"? (among the many other issues noted here) And then immediately starting a sequel using the exact same mechanics because there was clearly nothing wrong with it? Even if each game inches a little bit closer to what fans want, it feels like they're just doing the bare minimum to try and make people stop complaining, or just don't understand why fans want those things. I think that Origami King is a potentially genuinely good game being hamstrung by poor design and stubborn restrictions; character personalities are a lot stronger, environments are more interesting, each boss puts some new crazy twist on the combat. It's just unfortunate that the same issues (pointless combat, no genuinely new named Marioverse characters, failing to understand what fans want) bring it down.

I definitely think you should do a video on the Metroid series, how it fell off with Other M and got revived with Dread, and how Dread took Other M’s ideas and made them work.

l liked this pretty neutral and comprehensive explanation of a noteworthy/"controversial" series of events for certain franchises. idk how much you enjoy doing more historical research rather than gameplay research (as with your smash videos), but l'm sure there are a lot of other topics out their that would fit in this mold. It kinda reminds me of how zelda-fans were originally mad at WindWaker for being too childish and disliking SkywardSword for the motion controls, or you could talk about how/why we never get a part three of extremely popular valve-games just to name some of the top of my head

Star Fox needs this type of video

I want the Mario & Luigi Series to come back so bad :'(

combat is such a hard issue to fix for some reason, even in TTYD I found myself avoiding all the enemies because I didn't wan't to spend my time on a battle for 1 star point... luckily TTYD had a fix for that simply a badge that would one shot anything that didn't give you enough starpoints

now it’s only a matter of whether the next original game in the series is gonna be in the style of the first 2 again, or if the remake is a one and done and they continue in the sticolorgami style

Sticker star had like 5 new enemy types. One being Poison Bloopers. The other 4 were the Fiesta guys (Sombrero, Maraca, and Accordion) as well as the mural enemies. I like their designs and honestly would appreciate them returning.

To combine the best elements of both From the old games: everything From the new games: nothing

How paper mario lost his way? Well, trying to not be what it was supposed to be, an rpg game with a good story to tell.

I’d be down for you to talk about the decline & return of Capcom Dev 2’s fighting game team.

I had recently bought a copy of Paper Mario for the N64 about a year ago. I had always heard about how great the game is but never played it. I popped it in to make sure it worked and couldn't put it down. That became my game I completed that week. That's the mark of a good game. When you're not exactly interested or ready to play it specifically, but just checking to make sure it works and couldn't leave it alone after that.

I find it so strange that the dev team says they want to do new ideas and seem to reject elements of the first two games (and sometimes the game design coming off as honestly hostile to fans of those games like the partner bait n switches in OK) yet they doggedly hang onto game elements that never worked in the series refusing to let go of them like coin battle systems and entirely consumable based battle systems. It just seems like they’ve been fixated on getting “their version” to work and resent the old version. I’m hoping the TTYD remake sells well and that causes the team not to be so allergic to it

I feel like you kinda downplay how bad the games after sticker star are and how much going all in relying on paper gimmicks drags everything down. Bottom line is these aren’t irrational complaints that boil down to “it’s too different”. They’re just actually bad.

I like the idea you can put your paper gimmicks in but keep the RPG and the story elements with partners . That survey done in the SPM was an example of “don’t put all your eggs in one basket“ Nintendo did that and then doubled down by saying “ we must keep characters classic “ and it sunk them further. It’s a relief with the TTYD remake on the horizon we will get a chance to show them what we want

To answer your question at the end of the video, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the State of the Donkey Kong series right now.

I really hope that TTYD Remake becomes the best selling Paper Mario game yet. I want it to prove to Nintendo that we never want them to return to the garbage that they made three times in a row. Sure in the trash that is Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King you mind find a gold nugget that accidentally got mixed in, but honestly Nintendo should throw out those ideas and never look bad. I want the next Paper Mario game to not even be Paper Mario, but Paper Luigi. I want to see the events that took place in Luigi's own adventures that he told you about in TTDY. It would be the most expansive game yet featuring Rougeport along with Waffle Kingdom. It would have the exact same general mechanics but it would except it would expand more on the badge system and perhaps the party members could interact with one and other instead of just Luigi.

I feel likr they're only remaking TTYD because the last 3 formulas didnt work well, and they want their fans back. :/

I personally think that the next game series you should cover is one that started on the Wii and DS in 2007, then tapered off in 2010, then managed to get references in a PC game that first release in 2014 and is still going to this day, but sadly has never been revisited. I am, of course talking about the MySims series, a spin-off of a spin-off created by EA.

I admittedly didn't play Origami King, but I watched some let's plays of it, and I think the issue I personally have with it is that it... kind of just gets further and further from classic turn-based RPG battle mechanics? 'Battles' in Origami King seem more like a collection of puzzles for you to solve with whole 'rotate a wheel to line up enemies' thing. I don't HATE puzzle games or anything, but as someone who got into the series because it was a fun turn-based RPG, it just feels like they're ignoring the wants of the classic fanbase and trying to cater to a completely different audience now. Also, they are dabbling a tiny bit with interesting character writing again, but they're still staying away from the unique character designs that made the first three Paper Mario games memorable and adhering to the weird restrictive design rules.

I assume TTYD is an indication of this but I do think the modern trio are going to be looked at more fondly after some time knowing the series isnt stuck like that. 3D World had a lot of similar criticsm until Odyssey was announced, and my hope is this will be the perception on the recent Paper Marios, especially Color Splash, I actually adore that game.

I half-agree. The biggest problem was that the series' charm was sacrificed for the sake of gimmicks. No matter what industry - art, music, games, science, math, law - you're going to end up falling in a heap if you're relying on gimmicks and novelties to drive you forward instead of ensuring everything is fundamentally solid. Gimmicks are the auxiliary aspects that one should use to keep things fresh. TTYD did that perfectly with the paper abilities and the random 2D Bowser levels. Sticker Star, Color Splash and TOK made these silly gimmicks the entire premise of their games.

Can’t wait to play paper Mario for da first time

Please, can you talk about the Mario & Luigi Games oh and maybe sonic a little

I played sticker star when I was little. I didn’t even know how much better the previous games were cus I didn’t know they existed but I still had a terrible time because I kept getting stuck…

"These other games after sticker star were fine." No, they weren't.

A step forward is NOT enough when Sticker Star took 1000 Steps Back.

All I want to say here is that Nintendo releasing a remake is not a come to Jesus moment in of itself. It doesn't impact anything until Nintendo actually makes and releases a NEW Mario RPG. I already have Mario RPG Remake and love it. And I am 75% sure that I will love TTYD Remake the same way but TTYD could be improved upon. A LOT. And THAT is what I want to see.

Can you please make a Remake It! Video of Bowser?

I remember when Super Paper Mario came out. It was way too easy for me, even as a kid. Everyone in my online communities were really disappointed at the lack of the role partners played and that it wasn't an rpg. I feel like you're painting a picture that "that" was fine, when really it wasn't. Sure a sequel would have been better than sticker star, but we wanted an rpg. I remember when that quote about it being to close to ttyd, that actually killed the heart of that online community. It seemed clear they didn't have interest in making an rpg.

Still no trailer or news since September though. And it's about to be February.

See like I played Bowser's Inside Story it was probably the last great Mario and Luigi game that came out that being said I would agree that the game was probably the last good Paper Mario game that actually came out with an overall rating that would be above the bare minimum of five and being a rating of 5 out of 10 would include the story as well when arguably the story is the best part of the Mario games for the RPG series at least from Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door ranking it would arguably be the characters the storyline and then the battle system with exploration being tied with the battle system

While you’re mostly a Nintendo guy, the Sonic series, ESPECIALLY from 06 is fascinating to talk about. Especially when a lot of the games released after have been decent to great- but all ignored due to the stigma of 2006. In fact it’s only with the release of Frontiers that 3D sonic is considered good again, and the overall quality of that game is comparable to Forces- but has a VERY different reaction.

As someone who grew up loving Super Paper Mario, people definitely DID mind the change in gameplay. It used to cause so many arguments online it was insane. I think the fans of the game have just grew up enough to be able to have their opinions out there it makes it seem like the resentment wasn't there

I'm glad they didn't apply the white outline from recent entries. Pmttyd is one of my all time fave games and I can only hope that it sells well.

I think the main thing for me is...I don't mind Paper Mario being experimental, but it should alternate. I thought Suoer was fine for the reasons you mentioned, but after that I wanted Paper Mario 3. Instead we get another experiment, but this one is terrible. If you swao between traditional - experiment - traditional - experiment, people would be less annoyed. And removing all of the personality would just be a nonstarter anyway

I still wonder how people still defend sticker star. Like the backtracking is so bad that its more of a joke than actually good. What is their defense other than egnima mansion or jokes?

The reason that I was so annoyed with sticker star, even as a 12 year old playing it on launch day, was not the battles or gameplay, but the personality and charm that the games had was completely gone. The fact that it was treated as “an rpg, but Mario”, and had a structure similar to a dragon quest game, and was played totally straight was amazing. Paper being a thing that we, “a force outside their world” know as paper it they know as everyday life was cool. It was an artstyle with a few visual gags, not an ongoing joke everyone was in on in the world. In sticker star, it removed the most important part of an rpg: the world you inhabit. Generic NPCs, the same enemies, and tired locales, a single town, a world that didn’t feel lived in, and no characters you can get attached to made this game a slog. It wasn’t just the gameplay that made people love the old ones (including spm), it was the exploration of the world with fun characters and great self contained stories. It’s the reason why PM fans’ reaction to origami king was, pun not intended, OK. The gameplay wasn’t amazing but it was serviceable and the story felt more in line with what we wanted, though not all the way there. It has nothing to do with “it’s not like the old ones”, it had to do moreso with “they removed the reason we’re here”. There’s a subtle distinction that it seems like many who criticize PM fans totally and utterly miss, which makes us more frustrated because we feel we’re not being heard.

How about Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, that series is very and I mean VERY underrated!

You paint it like Sticker Star was really bad but Color Splash and Origami King are okay games unfairly hated. CS and OK are not fine on their own. They're both terrible in their own right and hearing people say "it's not nearly as bad as SS!" makes them sound like battered housewives.

With how horribly paoer mario has been handled, im still cautiously optimistic about ttyd, im still exoecting a major fuck up like making enemies super guardable with 30 frames instead of 3 or fucking up the music, cutting content, or idk. Im still pretty excited but last 10 years gave me PTSD

I feel it's difficult to justify the attempts that Color Splash and Origami King made as being "experimental" when, in reality, they ended up so similar to both Sticker Star and eachother that you could easily show someone a screenshot of Color Splash and tell them it's from Origami King, and vice versa. Sticker Star was an experiment that didn't work, and in that situation, you'd expect them to pack things up and try something else; but despite the claim that they wanted to "keep trying new ideas" with the series, Sticker Star became the new template for future Paper Mario games: no straying from the core, distinguishable (and perhaps marketable, even) facets of the Mario universe, barely any original characters, an emphasis on a papercraft aesthetic and mechanics over actual worldbuilding, no experience points or any sense of meaningful progression for that matter, and a battle system that actively discourages you from encountering enemies.

0:33 Based on what I’ve seen in the comments, perhaps you’ve still tempted fate even if things have mellowed out.

Gotta love how there are more "WOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT MARIO IS MADE OF DEAD TREES HOLY MOLY!!!!" Paper marios than actual paper mario games

I didn't play Sticker Star but I know it's really bad, I have bought it tho if I ever fall in a strange corner where I want to give it a try I played and somewhat enjoyed Color Splash, but I didn't want a sequel to it, also the "you need a special item" to even beat the boss is a very bad move Origami King...yeah I don't think there's another game that made me so angry as that one did, I also didn't care much for Olivia as I found her kinda annoying specially with how the game constantly hold your hand instead of letting us choose "no" and experiment ourself I also didn't like how every boss is just every day objects you can find in your home and the ring system was so frustrating for me to deal with and like Sticker Star, battles are completely pointless, at least Color Splash increases the ink tank if you do enough battles, tho the Coloring your card before making a move takes a little too long time, least the scrolling through so many cards to find the one you want I loved Super Paper Mario tho, easily my favorite in the series and I love the story, Dimentio, Mimi, Mr. L ..look awfully familiar don't ya think? *Sarcasm* anyway would like to see you do a video like this on the Mario and Luigi franshies (hopefully that series will return someday)

I usually try to avoid videos like this, because I'm honestly fatigued with the overly pessimistic nature of the Paper Mario fandom, even if they have valid reasons to feel the way they do. But I appreciate the more level headed tone and direction you displayed during this discussion, even if still hits a lot of the same beats I'm a bit numb to.

paper mario 10,000 year door sequel soon? Shadow KIng?

I maintain that the situation with modern Paper Mario is in many ways a microcosm of what has happened with much of Western entertainment (especially Hollywood) over the last decade.

Super Paper Mario was where it fell off for me, It wasn't memorable or the same level of fun as thousand year door. I would like more Paper Mario in the classic art style, with more memorable side characters, it would be really neat to get a paper Luigi game that uses the same mechanics as thousand year door but tells a new story in a new region. Or With Peach really being pushed to have her own development make it so we recruit more fun classic characters, Luigi, peach, daisy, DK , Rosalina and make them feel integral to the story

tanabe caused paper mario to fall

I agree. Hopefully Paper Mario is the good.

Both Sonic and Pokémon would too be good franchises to talk about Specifically Sonic post-Shadow The Hedgehog at earliest and Pokémon post-XY at earliest

See for me Paper Mario was good and they even took advantage of the like wheeze backwards wall compatibility even then the stories were good if not a bit wonky with the Wii controls on the remote but it was good until it tried to do like origami when it was implementing new mechanics instead of the side scrolling Adventure that it was awfully loved for and then it kind of lost it for me now don't get me wrong origami was still great in its own way but the new mechanics made it way too hard to play the partner system the storyline where you can switch between Bowser Peach and the other individual characters as playable entities an exploration is what made it loved along with how each playthrough would have its own individual identity like you couldn't get the same Yoshi every playthrough you would get an individual Yoshi that was specific to that playthrough along with the use of badges were brilliant and how yes some of the map was locked due to story narrative but in other games that you can go through that and get certain power-ups in advance if you explored well enough

The gameplay has never been the reason I love Paper Mario- Sure, I feel the gameplay of the first two are the best by far (aside from Oragami, I cannot judge it as I haven't played it), but that's not really the biggest reason I enjoy Paper Mario. There's a reason Super Paper Mario is my favorite in the series despite its gameplay being, pretty lackluster in my opinion, honestly.

I will say that Origami King is an interesting game because while Sticker Star and Color Splash could be described as unsuccessful attempts at a genre I like, OK is a successful attempt at a genre that I'm just not interested in. The latter does succeed in a solid story, good visuals, and boss battles that are enjoyable. However, the core battles are so fundamentally uninteresting and feel like such a relic of a kind of game that Paper Mario doesn't even seem to want to be anymore that it renders the final experience just uneven and not terribly satisfying. Especially compared to something like Bug Fables which fully embraces its platformer/RPG hybrid roots and gets further depth out of it? Origami King can't help but feel like it includes things like ring fights out of a misplaced notion that Paper Mario games need regular battles without understanding the gameplay context that needs to exist around it.

superstar saga is not sterile what do u mean

You know, it's funny. I love Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario. Thousand Year Door is fun, but IMO isn't as good as Paper Mario was. And while Super Paper Mario is fun too, it feels a little bland due to playing more like a 2d platformer then a Paper Mario game. I'd be interested in trying Sticker Star or Color Splash BECAUSE they change things up though.

Is there a source on the "Mario Mandates" being an actual thing rather than just a presumed set of guidelines? I feel like I've seen lots of conflicting claims about that. Also, I don't know if it's right that fans "didn't mind" the shift in gameplay in SPM. I seem to recall that game being pretty much the black sheep of the series until Sticker Star came along. I also think you're being a bit dismissive of legitimate criticisms that some people have of Color Splash and Origami King. There's definitely some level of "why isn't it like the old games?!" but there are also people who just... think the games aren't very good. (Note: I enjoyed both games, but I can definitely see why opinions would differ.) Apologies if this comment comes across as negative; the video is great, I just have more to say about the parts I'm being critical of.

I appreciate you going over most of the series issues but this is yet another video where a very important behind the scenes peoblem isint discussed. The fact that paper marios fall from grace began at the same time as fire emblem began to rise and become one of Nintendos most important series. Sticker star had some level of develpment overlap with fire emblem awakening and that game was supposed to be Intelligent Systems final game in the series so sacrificeing recourses and people from paper mario for FE made honest sense BUT awakening got huge enough to get two smash characters and even became big in the USA this ment that Fire Emblem was now the priority at all times for FE hence why we dont get new Paper mario games very often or in high quality anymore at least on the mechanical side of things. No I dont think mandates were a problem at least not to the extent of the Paper marios mechanics needed to be changed and I refuse to believe Tanabe that the survey about super paper marios story was bad when all you hear is how good that games story is. Call me a conspiracy theorist but Fire emblems rise as a major series lines up to well with paper marios fall to just be a coincidence and I belive tanabe who obviously works at intelligent systems is just making excuses so as not to point hatred towards fire emblem which was already under scrutiny for being over reped in smash. Mario and luigi might have played it safe but those games didint seem to be under any mandates the only othere series that had stagnation at the time was marios 2d titles and 3dvworld to only a minor extent. If these mandates were real and not just excuses from tanabe he better have a good reason as to why only the series he directed was under these mandates.

They can make wacky gameplay all they want as long as they bring back individualistic NPCs.

Jow about talking about The Wario Series's. Warioware seems to be losing its luster.

We fans better buy this game immediately and show Nintendo we prefer these types of Paper mario games over the modern ones.

I want you to talk about why Zelda games get universally praised for a few months, then suddenly everyone hates them. it happened with Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom, and pretty much every other Zelda. I get that the rose-tinted glasses come off after a few months, but I wouldn't think people would go from loving the game to absolutely despising it. Yeah, TOTK's story was really weak, I still think it doesn't compare to TP, MM, LA, or OoT. Still top tier games in my opinion. TOTK did alot better for the format it was going for. Better music, better "dungeons", better exploration (mostly), better physics. To me, BOTW, despite being a wonderful game, I was really disanointed over its music. Only a few tracks were good to me. TOTK remedied that by giving us many great tracks to listen to years onward.

"Don't fix what's not broken." That's Paper Mario's big problem. It looked so hard to fix a problem, that the series would become too similar to one another, that didn't even exist. Literally look at the first two games and you'll realize there is so much that make 64 and TTYD unique from each other. Eventually, it changed and experimented to the point that it lost itself. Paper Mario became a mask for a jumbled mess of ideas that had little to do with what people actually cared for. I hope that the Remake opens IS eyes to the fact that they didn't have to throw away all they built with the first two games. A new Paper Mario game still has more than enough potential to be fresh, even if it still uses the old style.

Lore of How Paper Mario Lost Its Way (Until Recently) momentum 100

While I definitely agree Sticker Star poisoned the well due to how poorly executed the ideas were, it's not like the later two games were *that* much better. Polishing a turd is still a turd (unless you're Project 06 where the turd turns into a bar of gold), and Color Splash and Origami King (especially) still have ideas I think are just bad. For Color Splash the issue was the battle system and the setup of it all and its reliance on the Gamepad. It's low-hanging fruit I know, and it doubling down the the paper humor and world was gonna turn heads. I at least think it *tried* to be Sticker Star but good to its credit. Origami King on the other hand I just think is not good, and it all ties back to the battle system. It has nothing to due with a controller gimmick but rather the fact the battle system exists just because they wanted to "stay true" to classic Paper Mario while taking a steaming dump on it completely. A certain blue puppet might've already gone into detail about it but he really highlights why the wheel mechanic was never good and is the thing that kills the game from a design standpoint. Even if you ignore battles you still have boss fights which are tough because you have to deal with the BS of forming the puzzle to fight it directly instead of, you know, hitting a guy normally. If the game was just purely an adventure where you jump and whack things with a hammer with an EXP-like system, essentially being like if SPM was in 3D, I think reception would've been better. Granted I also think the super over-reliance on paper and arts & crafts related humor was also a bad choice because if you want us to take it seriously...then take it seriously. If paper jokes were made very sparingly they would've landed better. If you wanted the story to be silly, then be silly. Very few truly understand how to make serious moments out of a whacky concept.

I paper Mario sticker star was a meh and it turned in whole new different series of its own from stickers star to origami king as a sequel to those last three games

Personally I'm a fan of Sticker Star and Color Splash

the newer paper marios (besides super paper mario) all have useless filler mechanics nobody asked for. Filling colors for actions, Picking up paper to fill in blank spots, picking up "stickers" that were once badges to the point where you start skipping them. Then removed what made the game so fun (Leveling only BP).

My thing is. if you wanna try something new with Mario, thats fine. but this goes for any series. If you create a spin off, and then change its identity 3 games in then that's a problem. The new paper mario games were fine as games, but not paper mario games. It would be like going to your favorite burger restaurant and ordering the usual, only to find out that they just added different, random ingredients to it and told you they weren't going back despite it being a favorite item. Sure, new people will love it, but that doesn't discount the frustration to those that already loved and supported it.. Why not make a new menu item instead? Why fracture your fanbase and create a situation in which you lose money because you decided to experiment with a item that has already been cemented into the minds and tastebuds of many? None of the new elements of that product were identical to the previous except for the fact that it's shaped like a burger. It's the same for Paper Mario I'm not saying it's wrong to experiment with your games but I think I'm saying an expectation to do that should be established at the start. To reuse the menu analogy, this reason is why there is a "Burger of the day" or a "Chef's Choice" menu option for people that do like to experiment. It's honestly really hard to believe that Sticker Star and Color Splash actually were experimenting, when it stuck to such old formulas and made it incredibly "safe". In my eyes, Origami King was the only one that actually experimented which is why I love/respect it the most out of the newer 3. I still have my reservations with it, but I will at least try to recognize the effort.

Your voice sounds like a 50 year old war veteran talking about topics that 25-30 year olds are interested in.