I think it's interesting how Demifiend and the Nahobino are fundamentally opposites. Demifiend is a True Demon. Something that has never had a Reason. Or, rather, something that has never had Knowledge. Every demon, in SMT V's continuity at least, is hamstrung by the fact that they are incomplete demons. Demifiend is not. The Nahobino, meanwhile, has both Life and Knowledge. A True God. So their showdown is very fitting conceptually.
Given the concept of knowledge and life, I have a different opinion. DF is a human with knowledge who, by casting away his humanity slowly with each and every fight with death/fiends, made the knowledge his own. Once he was reborn, he held the life and knowledge of the demifiend. Hence he's a true demon; the first demon born with knowledge and life. And yes with nahobino being his antithesis, their showdown was crazy!
Which really begs the question on why we were given the menorah in the first place; Did sophia, seeing that we've become the nahobino, saw us as someone with the potential to stop/help demifiend from his ceaseless quest on destroying all aspects of Great Will? or was sophia, being the First Mother, simply wants to return to the Great Will (as based on Gnosticism, she is an aeon/the feminine aspect of Great Will) and wants us to stop DF from destroying Great Will??
The fact Demifiends essence provides greater resistances than what he is in battle, and the fact that he’s always ready for a rematch, tells me that it’s a sparring match between the two as well.
@@thelegacyofgaming2928 it's also the way God is most commonly referred to in SMT, and if you back and watch footage of SMT IV/Apocalypse you'll catch that his name is considered so powerful even the demons won't legibly speak it.
You're half right. He doesn't become God in the "destroy the throne" ending. There he actively gives up the power of the Empyrean Throne. In the True Neutral Ending, he recreates the world in such a way that he's left existing outside of reality with no real power to affect anything so that humanity can decide its own destiny.
Fair. However, my point still stands in the true Neutral Ending. Even if he cant /won't affect anything (the fact that he is still there in that ending suggests he COULD get involved again if he wanted to), the dialogue, iirc, suggests the possibility that it might not last.
@@YEP753 Plus, Creator Nanashi is a thing. Even without his Creator Form, he's able to hold his own against Stephen, which is a feat much bigger than even taking down YHVH.
Nah, Nahobino is strong but Stephen is something else, 4 game protags, 2 of which has beaten YHVH, was nothing more than a small amusement to him, Nahobino would get destroyed hard.
@@mariofann9000 based on the daimond realm dlc, they'll scale all the characters to roughly the same power, smt 1 hero biggest accomplishment is beating Beelzebub I believe, and Beelzebub's a late boss for Demifiend but not the strongest thing he fought yet they're all around the same power. Depending on what they do for either another what if sequel or smt 6 and 7 protags if they are more low key or absolute madmen with other absurd feats it would be possible. It also seems in line with this series to have humanity struggle and have the human limit condensed into 8 messiahs(or maybe more party slots in a future game to add some powerful demons into the mix) overcome an insurmountable challenge and defeat one of the strongest being in the universe
@@mariofann9000 nahobino beat Lucifer , who absorbed god ( so YHVH iirc ) , so much stronger than god . And then nahobino beat him , so I think they could go toe to toe .
Nahobino in True Neutral actually managed to break the Mandala Cycle, so much, that Great Will avatars actually consider him a legit threat. Stephen and the Axiom would probably consider looking at him or summoning a counter force because he is of that scale of a threat.
This is debatable since it's left pretty vague as to whether it's truly possible to break the cycle. Humans can't help their latent desires and will inevitably give rise to demons. Even if normal humans have that potential stripped from them, the yellow eyed Nahobino at the end (likely a vestige of Lucifer's Knowledge absorbed by the Nachobingo) suggests that he still remembers the events of the previous Kalpa, and therefore his memories could be used as a vector to give rise to yet more demons- restarting the cycle.
@@drewb1979 I actually agree with you on this. In my opinion, That’s pretty much why the ending seems open ended despite the case. Even if he broke the Mandala, so what? It felt like… I felt like it was a beginning of a sequel, in fact.
One thing that wasn’t mentioned: The Nahobino at the end of every route other than Throneless absorbs the essence of YHWH-Lucifer into himself, so not only is he capable of beating a being that ascended past what YHWH could believe is possible, but he was able to absorb its power into himself, becoming the fusion if the two most powerful beings seen in this game
Just think what the concept of a Nahobino actually makes Demi fiend. He is not a god that has taken a human's knowledge, but a human who has attained godly powers. As such, even though he is probably as strong as a Nahobino, he can't even make his own reason, which means he probably can't claim the throne of god. In that sense, he really has become the True demon
Especially because of what Baal said. Some humans have malleable souls, which probably explains Persona users with the wildcard too. Persona users seem like the summon their corresponding knowledge demon too. In Nocturne, a fucking Loa says a human's soul can learn but a demon's soul can't, which would explain Personas changing into different demons.
While a bit random, One thing I like so far about Nahobino is his humanity. Him trying to find Dazai and protecting Tao are great moments, but the prime example I believe was when he laid Sahori to rest. He hardly knew her but held on to her in a conforting manner to soothe her
@@dorkistantkd6233 along with Demi friend standing there, the protagonist is also standing there. If anything your “point” only works in protags favor. Let me put it this way, Demi Fiend is fighting to kill, Protag is fighting to test his strength and let’s Demi fiend end the fight before Demi fiend dies from it
Is there significance that with the Creator's knowledge, Lucifer was one Potential short of max in all elements while Nahobino can get maxed by the end?
Just for fun I decided to add up how much glory it would take to max out every affinity on Nahobino. It's 6635 Glory. You'd need to collect every Miman in the game 4 and a half times over to get that much glory.
@@HunterStiles651 with the glory crystals you can find that probably cuts it down to only a couple playthroughs, meaning you could reasonably max out all elements by the time you do the secret ending if you do all three of the other endings first
@@enbydeadly i maxed it on my second playthrough relatively early, and that was with me having most of my miracles obtained anyway, although i did go for mitamas alot looking for grims and gosps, no dlc
@@HunterStiles651 I mean if we assume V is a direct sequel to Nocturne then you could say he went through the Multiverse to gather power similarly to how the Demifiend did. If he could pop up and greet you in DDS and Imagine it's not a far fetch to say this Lucifer wasn't somewhere close by grinding for Glory.
Is Lucifer actually a Nahobino? I mean he’s a Matter class while Tsukuyomi, Nuwa, and Abdiel are the same class as us. My dumb little headcannon is that a demon can absorb the knowledge of someone that isn’t their “other half” and that’s what Lucifer (and maybe Lahmu, since it never ascended past the Vile class) did.
@@EnkiDootDoot It's never made clear, but in my opinion I don't think he's a Nahobino. Most cases we've seen are of two individuals mutually fusing together and Lucifer/YHVH are like oil and water. I think it's as simple as they state and Lucifer just absorbs YHVH's knowledge to ascend to a higher plane.
@@EnkiDootDootNahobino are true gods. With both knowledge and power making them truly divine. This doesn't void them of error though. As implied with God in this continuity he was all powerful simply by comparison as there are things he couldn't do and was still capable of dying/falling to Lucifer who is no more than a Tyrant at the time. Lucifer in the end although is a Matter. The very essence of our universe and everything in it. He has transcended simple dominion over the universe andnhas become one with it. Everything there is has become part of him. It is in this that he turns to almost pure selflessness as he sacrifices himself to hopefully free everyone who he has in some way become part of. He is truly benevolent despite his treck to get there.
Just the idea that you are a being that, from the start of your journey, is able to not only beat, but CREATE gods as you see fit, is just insane to me! This is of course true of all SMT games, but with SMT V it doesn't feel like you subvert and force demons into joining you (for the most part), but rather that you prove just how many magnitudes you are above them, and they end up serving you willingly, and without question! Nahobino feels like every demon he meets, beats and recreates as his own, is more along the lines of "I recognize you as a TRUE god, and i will let you guide me to whatever end you see fit...", where protagonists like Demifiend feels more like they are forcing this fate on the demons...
Out of of curiosity, is there any reason you find the term 'god' so impressive, when it is, inherently, especially due to the way its been so heavily diluted over the years, completely useless?
@@papapalps2415 In the context of the game, it's not impressive, but in real world terms, effortlessly subjugating a god would be a concept that would be hard to even quantify. If a true god is all knowing and all powerful, how can someone or something defeat them? I should have made it clear that my awe of the feat was if you put it in real world context, and not the actual game context, as the "gods" there are statet and proven to be flawed from the start, and is subject to game mechanics...
One of the NG+ Miracles when it randomly activates it causes the Demon to immediately accept you as a God and joins you immediately. Unless of course you don't meet the requirements to recruit em that is.
Anticipating that you’ll either side with the Nahobino or Demifiend in any sequel to the SMT Series since the Nahobino effectively fills Gods role while Demifiend takes Luci’s position.
Man I want Atlus to make a game like that with God and Lucifer replaced by the Nahobino and the Demifiend or at least them being the final boss of whichever route you take
Should be noted that if he defeats TDE Demi-Fiend, it can only happen before defeating and taking Lucifer's power as his own. This means they're possibly no longer equals by the end. This doesn't count the other unique quirks he has, such as Pierce now ignoring Reflect and Drain, which are also applied to Demi-Fiend's crew.
@@dorkistantkd6233 How can you play after the ending? I'm pretty sure if you load and don't do new game +, it starts right before the fight with Matter Lucifer in terms of timeline.
@@Orphim I seen people do new game plus after that ending. And in new game plus nahobino has already absorbed matter Lucifer’s power but still has a hard time with Demi fiend while Demi-fiend is holding back. Imagine if Demi fiend actually wanted to try
@@dorkistantkd6233 because the company make the boss hard ?Like you can literally turn to safe mode and wipe demifiend out if you compare power in term of gameplay 😂. Think dork think
I would say the return of the true demon is canon cuz a lot of the attacks are already in the game and its obvious that it was planned as just part of the game but later decided to be dlc
I mean, even if it’s just from a DLC, once Nahobino beats Demi-Fiend and gets chaotic will, the animation literally breaks reality. That says a lot about how powerful he is.
Yeah Nahobino defeating the strongest version of Lucifer we've seen, who surpassed God (If you want to say it's the same one from SMT2 or 4, doesnt matter much). He has such a Vast toolkit at his disposal (even if you only want to count Aogami's Essences) he is easily up there with some of the strongest protags in this franchise. It's safe to say he should be the strongest Mainline protagonist, even if Aleph, Flynn and Nanashi also managed to hold their own and defeat god, he beat a being that surpassed that. Only ones that might be arguable at this point might be Abel from Devil Survivor or Seraph from DDS2 depending how you interpret those games lore and endings.
And, of course, the Protagonist of Strange Journey, who should be within 2 Ranks of the Nahobino according to Fither's own ranking. And then you factor in the Redux Neutral+ timeline, where he defeats Shekinah AKA GOD in that continuity (if I'm remember correctly) and becomes the actual Doomguy of the SMT Multiverse... I don't know. SMT Multiverse stuff is insane.
Couldn't Abel be considered a nahobino in the overlord ending? He started off as a human then gained the power of a god, the original Bel. And if a Nahobino is the fusion of human and god then isn't Overlord Abel a Nahobino?
@@Pwrplus5 i consider him because i unironically agree with the theory that he beat Yhvh and V events happened Before V i thought that he was one of the weakest mainline protagonists (but pretty much in the sense of being strong as hell just not as the others)
Technically the protagonist Nahobino would have the true name of Aogami if he was the one in control. But since the main protagonist is the one in control, the Nahobino form has his name. So calling him as Susano'o wouldn't be wrong, but he'd most likely use his human name.
Quite amusing that he is the only Nahobino so far wherein the "human" side mostly controls everything (might be because of Aogami's artificial nature). Just look at the other ones fighting for the throne where they only use their Knowledge bearers to get stronger, therefore making the demon in possession of the body, then there's our blue long hair boi with Susano-o's Knowledge bearer controlling it and his face copypasted on the damn body.
Aogami lost almost all of his memories and I believe it was Tsukuyomi(?) who picked up his magatsuhi remains and made him into the Aogami we know today. Even at not his full strength Aogami is this strong when becoming a Nahobino. But I think him regaining his power and memory Susanoo is not good considering what the real Susanoo’s personality is like…….. he might very well do a Dagda 2.0
It talks about "20 years ago tokyo was destroyed" and God recreated it as a miracle. What if 20 years ago that was SMT nocturne, where the Demi Fiend fought in that Tokyo as the demi fiend and rose to power? In the True ending you know Lucifer basically brought up the Demi-Fiend to use him to fight god. God was nerf'd from his miracle to save Tokyo and Lucifer + Demi-Fiend are the ones who destroyed a weakened God? Which is why both Lucifer and the Demi-Fiend are in this game.
Why do I get the feeling that V takes place after the Freedom ending? Would explain the Shekinah Glory, perhaps. Not saying True Demon never happened somewhere in the multiverse, considering the Demi-Fiend fought in the DLC was stated to be from another world and such.
Unironically, I think the NahoBino is the strongest SMT protag. He is a being equivalent to YHVH at base, then he beats Lucifer, who killed YHVH. Like... what the fuck
If we look at smtv's steven fight, then the protags there could be seen as stronger, if you consider that canon and realize that said fight is considerably more difficult than the YHVH fight in game. To take that a step further, if you consider the fact that Shiva is a harder fight than Lucifer and the Demi Fiend fight is ridiculous in comparison, Demi Fiend would be stronger. Like, the guy is able to party wipe in one move, and the mechanic where he summons demons is actually exploited to keep him from party wiping, meaning he'd actually be stronger fighting solo.
@@svenfold979 the problem with using the stephen fight is that a) they didnt even win and its unclear how much Stephen was trying and b) it was a 5 v 1, plus Nanashi's demons. And one of the fighters killed YHVH. Aleph is really the only one thats in the discussion really, unless you want to use SMTV Demi fiend
@@dumbledoresnape656 I'm just using the fight in comparison to yhvh. It's no argument that despite that, it's way harder. And even with two teams, the way the fight was structured was kinda like this; everybody taking damage. Ironically, demi fiend was pretty much the damage dealer in that fight while everyone else were basically running support. The fact that the type of damage they were getting hit with was survivable despite that can be important. Honestly, Demi Fiend might realistically be the strongest protag, just because they keep showing him love; this wasn't the first time they made him the strongest boss in a game he was in, and I doubt it'd be the last. I'm also more likely to count this Demi Fiend fight as well, but only because his conclusion, at least to me, could actually be supported by the narrative, possibly even implying this may be a sequel to nocturne.
Theory on the last point: True Demon Ending + Reset ending of Nocturne + Friendship end of SMT 4 A = God is dead for good and when this lucifer went to the throne, he found him slain.
IV is isolated But Smt 1-5 are definitively connected and one of the things i noticied The archangels in Smt 2 rebel against Yhvh in law route > The archangels are chiaki allies in Nocturne and you must beat them > the archangels are dead in V and you revive them to make them God's allies again, but like when they become not? See where i came from?
@@neoonewingedren1836 I mean that still doesn't entirely make sense considering you need to beat Metatron in Nocturne for the TDE and now he's just guarding the Empyrean in V. Also not all the archangels rebeled against YHVH in II to my knowledge. I went Neutral, but the angels who go against Him are Uriel, Raphael, and Michael while Gabriel remained loyal. You also don't fight Gabriel in Neutral but you do kill Uriel and Raphael no matter what, yet all three are still alive in Nocturne. I'm with you on the connections between the games, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's as overt as you think. Each game, except for I and II, are in their own little pocket universes, so the connections that are there don't have as much as a presence like an angel being dead one game leading to their revival in the next. There are references and things that make you go "Oh yeah, that thing!" but if you focus on them too much or try to connect them in a linear line, you'll only get a headache (How does Demi-fiend and Satan referencing Aleph fit within Digital Devil Saga?)
@@priceyyeti4058 yeah you're right More you try to connect Megaten games(including Persona and etc.) More you realize Atlus don't care about coherent sequence and if they doe they will just do a big excuse that doesn't make sense but works)
@@neoonewingedren1836 From what I understand, they are all isolated or a spin-off series comes from a specific ending from one of the mainline SMTs. I'd almost guess that if anything SMT Nocturne and SMTV are alternate dimensions where in SMT V the person who becomes the Demi-fiend doesn't actually go to visit his teacher and so the cult leader doesn't get strong enough to defeat Kagutshuchi and prove himself. That resulting failure gives Lucifer enough time to build up power and go for the Empyrean throne successfully.
I think what nahobino has accomplished far exceeds what any other megaten mainline protagonist has ever done. Even power of friendship Nanashi and his crew or Aleph didn't quite surpass nahobino's deeds (story-wise). The man literally beats the crap out of the strongest lucifer we've ever fought ( who also defeated and absorbed god) with no other help than his demons and his unshakeable will to make it to the throne. And I'm honestly glad he's now the strongest, because I'm not really fan of Nanashi's edgy design. Demi-fiend is a beast and we all love our shirtless boi, but lets be real, he isn't as strong as some people think he is.
Demi fiend isn't as strong people think he is. He's far stronger. *don't you f*cking dare say he's overrated. Literally everywhere I go people claim he can't even beat Satan* El>Nahobino >Abel =Demi fiend =Rui >Nakajima = Nanashi>the rest
@@raidoukuzonoha883 he didn't erase Yhvh bruh Yhvh was already dead. Killed by the mother Goddesses who needed to ambush a weakened version of him too at that. And the strongest mother is only camperable to demiurge and Shekinah.
@@dreamsboi5085 El is the protagonist of Last Bible right? I recall him being the only one to actually fight The Axiom/The Great Will, and that the Great Will created him specifically as an adversary. Why are the obscure ones the most powerful ones...
A hard yes on that, Goku can only reach Universal levels at most. The strongest DB character is Zeno and he is only low-multiversal having only created universes in the tens.
@@phillemon7664 You will, naturally, be showcasing, with actual proof/feats, the Nahobino demonstrating anything even vaguely close to...let's be generous, and say planet-level. Should be easy, right? I mean, after all, with all that SUPER-DUPER-OMNI-GIGA-TERA-versal power, every fight, every stray attack, should involve the entire local area of the cosmic web being vaporized, amirite?
@@papapalps2415 Let's be real, scaling is very dumb and incredibly incoherent. If Goku was only scaled by his pure destructive power he would only be solar system level at most as we never see him purposely destroy anything larger than that but he is greater than solar system level because he has defeated characters stated to be capable of destroying the universe. Same can be said with SMT characters, we never see SMT characters do attacks that destroy the fabric of the multiverse but we see the implications of the actions of the characters in the story. i.e. Maruki having tendrils present in all of Mementos implying he has tendrils stretching across the multiverse as Mementos is stated to be an iteration of the Collective Unconscious which has connections to souls from other universes, keep in mind we never see Maruki do an attack the AtOmIzEs tHe FaBrIc oF ReAliTy but because of the feat we can assume he has control over the entire multiverse The Nahobino after absorbing the power of both Lucifer and God has the ability to alter not only the physical state of the multiverse, he even undermines and changes the fundamental laws of the multiverse as seen with the Humanity ending with the MC erasing the Mandala System. Goku can just punch hard and shoot big lasers that never destroy anything larger than a planet. Nahobino alters the facts of reality at will no need for zenkai boosts or multiple form changes to beat Goku just a single thought to end his career.
Even the Anarchy route Nanashi with Flynn, and Satan could only beat YHWH after he was weakened first. Even if Lucifer did the same, he ended up becoming more powerful than YHWH could ever imagine. I genuinly don't know how anyone can say with absolute certainty that Nahobino isn't the strongest SMT protagonist. Especially since he claims the throne in all endings, so he's theoretically even stronger then when you play as him.
This might just be my theory but I think the demifiend fight is definitely canon. I think post true demon ending, demi fiend and lucifer leave to go fight yhvh and actually succeed leading to God being dead in smt 5. Lucifer absorbed gods knowledge and the demifiend was just like...okay and stands as test for the one to oppose lucifer. Throughout the game they mention tokyo being destroyed 18 years ago (which in real life nocturne was released about 18 years before 5) plus they mention the conception by name. I just feel that smt 5 is almost a direct sequel to nocturne but that could just be me thinking too far into it.
I would say he is straight up Steven levels busted since although I only got both neutral endings so far just based off of what Lucifer mentions during his fight he seems to have Steven levels of knowledge and if that is one of the reasons Steven was granted power by the axiom then it would make sense for Lucifer to also have similar power levels if not the same. I think the protagonist of smt V is hands down the strongest character to appear in smt since it's not like the axiom is a character but rather a universal power of some sort. This will probably start arguments just by me saying this though
I seriously doubt it, remember, Stephen was (while doing nothing but playing around) able to fight 5 other game protags, 2 of which if not maybe 3 of them, are powerful enough to fight and beat YHVH and Stephen isn't even a little tired from fighting all of them and just goes "Cool, I got what I wanted, now go home". I mean seriously Stephen and The Axiom is basically so much more above everyone else, that reality as the others percieve it, even paradoxes and impossibilites, are casually just brushed aside by him and he speaks about performing things even the most powerful demons and entities consider impossible to be nothing but a party trick to him. The Nahobio is really strong, but Stephen could probably slap him so hard, the entire SMT Multiverse just ceases to exist.
Jimenez to me seems more like a demi fiend situation since he is the result of a botched fusion (if I rmener correctly) hes a demon human hybrid but not a nabohino
I think Nahobino and Demi Fiend are at least equals. The fact that Demi is by far the most difficult fight in the game with and after defeating him he doesn't even emote or flinch and can immediately fight again if you so choose makes it feel like a simple sparing match almost
I just like to imagine that after the fight, Nahobino and Demi-Fiend just went down to the nearest vending machine and go drank some soda, being pals in world domination and destruction
@@randomdude1077 On hard as well meaning that the Nahobino has the potential to kill or at minimum defeat any other SMT character if he has a lot of time to prepare.
heres a thought, what if this is in the same timeline and universe as nocturne, and Lucifer managed to beat the creator with his help? - same design of lucifer - the netherworld could very well be the vortex world 20 years after the kagatsuchi was killed - magatsuhi is only really used in 3 and 5 as a resource - Demi Fiend is either TDE or just the regular demon ending, which explains the massive war - The conception in 3 apparently ended the world, but you only see how it affects Tokyo, meaning the creator may have saved the rest of the world and then made the fake tokyo. - the way the Reasons worked makes me think they were turning into Nahobino, humans fusing with gods to have the power to create the universe in their image I haven't finished 5 yet so I may be well out, but the broad strokes are making me think this
Nanashi had flynn, the law chaos neutral trio, all his friends, and with the power of love, all things nahobino didn’t have, only the will to create a new world and the anger of one of his comrades being killed.
@@elliottdavid9095 Well Nahobino still has a full team of demons plus is literally fused with a dude. Not as much but it's not like he did everything by himself.
@@projectmessiah well to be fair Nanashi had dagda and his own summoned demons, And again seeing as how nahobino lucifer is implied to be much stronger than yhvh. It's a fair bet to say the nahobino is the strongest smt protag.
The only 3 characters I question Nahobino Beating are the Axiom, Stephen, and Bel. The only reason Bel is I think he kills God but I am currently in the fight against the Manifested Server and got my ass handed to me first try.
Bel does not kill God, if you are referring to Devil Survivor. According to lore, the original tried and failed. It's up in the air whether the new one can succeed, but Nahobino has defeated a being who DID succeed. At least in terms of what we have seen and what has been told, Nahobino is still higher.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 lucifer never succeeded. He wouldn't have without demi fiend. Demons literally can't kill each other. Only humans/half humans/previously humans can. Stop assuming that lucifer did the thing by himself. It's painfully obvious that demi fiend did it himself. And the protagonist has nothing to do with the original Bel and he's clearly stronger.
@dreams Boi okay, well you're just straight up wrong. The DLC has the fiends explicitly state that they, and by extension Demifiend, came from a different world entirely, which confirms there is no connection between this game and Nocturne. You are the one making assumptions without any really proof. And second, again, lack of proof because where is it stated that he is stronger than The original Bel? Not that it really matters for the point I was making.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 1. Bro you do realize that this could simply the Amala universe right? Because it has infinite universes. The protagonist is simply in another one from demi fiend. That's it. After kagutsuchi was killed, the vortex world is gone, demi fiend goes to kill Yhvh, then goes the protagonist's universe. You guys are obsessed with power scaling to the point of forgetting about story telling entirely. Also how is that relevant to my point? Even if what you said was true, it still doesn't disprove what I said, you dodged the entire argument 2. How is it irrelevant? Your argument that the protagonist can't beat Yhvh because the original Bel can't, that's so wrong.
So, coming back to the name, I realized something which confirmed my previous stance. By the end of the game, Nahobino perceives Lucifer's true form, something that, canonically in game, can only be accomplished after reaching a certain level of power. In terms of real world logic, that's probably just because the concept of true form Lucifer didn't exist prior to the game, but that doesn't change the fact that, in universe, he is the only one to accomplish this feat.
God, the SMT fans are the worst people I have ever had the displeasure pf talking with. No one can see that "LeGeNdArY" form, but they can actually defeat Lucifer regardless?
Nahobino is undoubtedly the strongest SMT mainline MC alongside Demi-Fiend (if you consider the DLC as canon). He defeated Matter Lucifer, who killed and absorbed YHVH which means by default makes him above Nanashi, Flynn and Aleph
I am new to Smt only played Smt V and Nocturne, amazing games btw, but man your right at first I thought that the characters where just at the level of other rpg characters, until I read one of the miman comment it said that Zeus lighting can destroy the entire universe, also that shiva dude was going to destroy creation it self I was like wtf, and that Matter Lucifer dude literally exist outside of creation itself, I was shocked as hell lol this entire time I was playing as some high level op dude, this Smt guys are damn OP.
@@GoProGamer447 That's kind of the beauty of power scaling isn't it? You find incomprehensibly OP characters in the most unlikely of places. For example, did you know that Aang in the avatar state is Outerversal and that Sora at the end of Kingdom Hearts III is complex multiversal?
Lol at taking dlc nonsense that retcons a real game’s events as canon. Oh well, Apocalypse diamond realm dlc came first and confirmed all Messiahs are equal. It must be more true.
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 It's actually stated that they were amped. Stephen tells Nanashi that he'll lend him his power if he agrees to help the other Messiahs. And Nanashi's observation amped the other Messiahs in the battle against Stephen. That's the only logical explanation to it. Saying it's non canon is basically saying Altus didn't make it, which obviously isn't true.
@@Rageouz Demi fiend in the battle is holding back against nahobino i could tell by the moves he uses and the demons he has and I could also tell by his resistences if Demi fiend just spammed mediarahn and spammed gaea rage he would end nahobino
@@dorkistantkd6233 can't really use in game moves to determine power lvl, it makes more sense to use their feats to show power, Demi fiend biggest feat is possibly defeating lucifur but Lucifur was testing him so we don't know if he was serious or was holding back, and since Lucifur killed YHVH in 5 which seems like a sequel to Nocturne, It most likely turned out that Lucifur and Demi Fiend together defeated YHVH and Lucifur absorbed God's knowledge and ascended past YHVH could ever be, and the Nahobino defeated that. Even in the battle vs Demi fiend, Nahobino just kinda stands there right before it starts not even ready to fight like he usually is, while Demi Fiend seems to be going all out
I would argue that Aleph doesnt deserve the high spot people place him in. Sure, he killed YHVH, but so does many other protagonists in some form. I dont remember if SMT 2 had it be possible for the protagonist to use magic, but if he could, I vaguely remember he only had access to up to the second stage. Not to mention that, regardless of how he came to be, he is still functionally more or less human. I would place him around the level of the strange Journey protagonist, so rather lower on the scale. And Demi Fiend is over rated to absurd levels. I would put him only slightly higher, only because he becomes more than human.
Smt God kinda deserved his end if all SMT V information is correct like seriously you have to pity demons if they are only like this because of a tryant stripping them of who they truly are.
To be blunt when it comes to video game characters, I typically look at cutscenes to be canon since everyone's gameplay is different. And based on what I saw in cutscenes I have to say nahobino is VERY unimpressive. I mean he fought this weird tentacle creature and got smacked into a wall, dude was knocked out for a good few minutes and against that same tentacle thing nahobino straight up DIED and had to be brought back to life. And when fighting another nahobino in the form of tsukuyomi, when they clashed it looked so "soft". Typically in anime or other video games when powerful characters clash, the ground beneath them cracks to emphasize how physically powerful they are, but in the nahobino fight I didn't see that. In cutscenes which takes precedence to me, nahobino seems so underpowered and it made me think "well, shoot, maybe messiahs are as busted as I originally thought they were".
This is true but to be fair, Lahmu was particularly strong during that portion of the game due to eating humans I believe, and Nahobino does get strong enough to block Tsukuyomi, which is something not many other beings could probably do
@@rouge-ish324 I agree, there's a noticeable difference in what lahmu is able to do in his fights because in the first one he didn't have a chance against Nahobino, in the other two he was better prepared since he absorbed an student with a strong desire of revenge and we know how powerful thoughts are in megaten lore, he also defeated and absorbed Nahobino Lucifer who was able to rewrite the whole universe, even if anyone found creation feats to be a questionable way to measure power Nahobino defeated Abadon who is stated by the tengus to have eaten multiple cities and gods and being able to eat the whole planet before they realize it, he also defeated King Frost who is stated by the in-game description to be able to freeze the whole planet (though it also says he isn't aware of his power but you can't defeat someone that powerful if you don't surpass its durability which should be equal to its power), and he defeated Shiva who already gathered enough power to blow up the universe and Aogami states his power surpass the power levels of every demon they've fought, which is better proof of strength than causing cracks on the floor
My rule is when discussing powers of videogame characters gameplay doesn't matter, only feats in the story matter. Because stats and attacks often contradict the story of the games them self.
Theory If being a Nahobino means returning to the true state of godhood, Did Dagda from IV Apocalypse want to become one as well? Was Nanashi his Knowledge?
so basically, the nahobino ends up killing the god above gods... hmm interesting, so in essence if you will, yes tyler1477 this smt protag can solo goku checkmate atheists
Here's a metric to compare smt protagonists: Have them keep their starting affinities, including what they are strong and weak against, and the power of their special moves.
@@bogus8591 kirby has fought beings of equal if not greater power then the demi fiend. Therefore I find that at the very least kirby and demi fired are evenly matched.
It is very hard to be an SMT Protagonist and be weaker than Demifiend. Sit 1 protag, Maybe Aleph, and definitely Strange Journey Protagonist are the only ones who haven't been shown to have significantly more impressive abilities. Hell, While other protagonists are killing God or a Comparative version of a similar level, the most Demifiend manages is Kagutsuchi who, while still a piece of YHVH, is a very limited, and significantly weaker fragment of his power.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 Hell nah, Demi-Fiend did not only kill YHVH and Lucifer (who after SMT V we know is on the same level as YHVH) but he also fights Nahobino who can at this point already has inhabited the heavenly throne.
Aleph is ridiculously overrated. There's so many Megaten protagonists far stronger than him. Nahobino, Demi-Fiend, Ren, Raidou, Hibiki, El, Nanashi, Flynn, Nakajima, Rui, Abel, Tatsuya, Maya and Yu. They're all vastly more powerful than Aleph. and It's not even close, he literally gets one shotted by any of them.
@@bogus8591 i think a main reason why aleph gets so much hype is because of how simple smt2 was. granted im going off of the fither video mostly cause i didnt play all smt games, but alot of the protags that actually beat god, who lore wise is top tier, had alot of help or had to weaken him one way or another. tho i do agree that if aleph were to fight other protags aleph would be kinda screwed. especially when fighting a persona wildcard thats allowed to actually use the dang thing
People make the joke that to Demi-Fiend, the fight against Nahobino wasn't even a challenge, but I don't really see it that way. To me, both are equally matched. It's less of a fight and more like they're sparring.
Nahobino >Abel = Demi fiend >Nanashi >Hibiki >seraph >Aleph =Hideto >space marine >Nakajima >Kazuya Nahobino beat matter lucifer who's infinitely stronger than Yhvh (heavenly host) Abel beat Yhvh (heavenly host) Demi fiend also beat Yhvh (heavenly host) offscreen, onscreen he stalemates End game Nahobino who just acquired/destroyed the Heavenly throne making him Yhvh level (heavenly host) while holding back, so no matter which way you put it, demi fiend slams a full powered Yhvh easliy
But it was never shown, stated, or even implied that Demi Fiend ever is cease holy killed YHVH, and every appearance in past games suggests he didnt. Stop passing your head canon as if its fact.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 like how you ignored my Abel scaling lol "I AbSoLuTeLy LoVe DeMi FiEnD" no you don't. So I really have to repeat what I said? Demons can't each other. Only humans, half humans and previously humans can. Lucifer is not either of those so he literally can't kill Yhvh
@dreams Boi you can repeat it all you want, it doesnt make it true. The rules of how things work are inconsistent between games. And even if that was the case (it's not, demons have been shown to kill each other in cutscenes), considering that YHVH has been killed directly by humans TWICE shows that not even humans can do it directly. Except for one very easy exception that basic logic can lead. Lucifer absorbed Gods Knowledge and Power before ascending the throne. That alone can very easily be said to prevent his return. Or, maybe the Angel's in V are right and he WOULD come back in the future if Nahobino hadn't replaced him.
To note a few points you forget to consider: God in V is never stated to be the YHVH of other games, and in fact it's been implied that he is different, with the fact that he wasnt the first Creator God, which thus implies that he wasnt an avatar of the Great Will this time around, and the fact that God in V is specifically implied(or directly stated) to be a Nahobino too, meaning he also had to be partly human. Furthermore, other than the angels, none of the characters seem to question the claim that Lucifer personally killed God, suggesting that it's not put of the realm of possibility for this game. And the only reason the Angel's insist its false is because they are determined to claim that their God is all powerful and infallible, not contesting whether it's possible for demons to kill each other.
Nahobino can probably beat Goku, I imagine yhvh it's like, Bills power level and Lucifer in this game it's about an angel power level, so yeah, he could beat Broly, Gogeta blue and Bills, maybe even some of the weaker angels.
Nahobino, Demi-fiend , Nanashi, Aleph,Abel and even ren from P5R true ending , can solo the whole DB without problems , since DB only scales to Complex Multiverse and MegaTen scales to outerversal thanks to the expanse and the collective unconscious
Nahobino CAN beat Goku, and pretty easily I might add. Bills, Whis, and even Zeno would be mid-high level demons that you would encounter that would be fusible. For reference SMT characters are High-Complex Multiversal to Outerversal while at most while DB characters are Universal to Low-Multiversal at the highest.
I think Kagutsuchi is an avatar of the great will not an avatar of YHVH , in a way he's equal or i should say equivalent to YHVH , Kagutsuchi played his role in the cycle of universes ( creation - maturation - destruction ) , while YHVH in 4A became independent and did his own thing , TDE demi fiend is the only protag that goes beyond beating to top dog of his own universe to challenge the creator of the amala multiverse "" wich i really doubt is YHVH "" we don't know how he performed most likely he lost , still it's huge , but of course if we go by who did the most within his own universe Nahobino has the greatest feat by defeating omega lucifer someone stronger than yhvh + the power of throne , close 2nd are nanashi and space marine who defeats the ancient gods technically nahobinos in the schwarzwelt + female equivelant of yhvh powered by the cosmic egg in redux My TLDR on demi fiend : the top dogs of his universe kagutsuchi and lucifer are not that strong in comparison with other titles , but him challenging the creator of the multiverse "" probably the great will "" is significant , and because we don't know the result its hard to scall him THIS IS JUST SPECULATION AND HEAD CANNON don't take anything i said too seriously
Only thing I'm mad is that they didn't have Matter Lucifer be level 109 so he was one step above classic YHVH. I know there isn't enough experience in the game to make that viable but come on! It was right there Atlus...
“Ha! My character nullifies all attacks!” “Ok… but do they NULLIFY, DRAIN, or REFLECT..? Because unless all elements violently refuse to come in contact with your character… I got some bad news chief…”
I’d say that SMTV protag is probably the strongest protagonist in the series alongside demifiend. I’d argue for demifiend because in nocturne you do technically fight Nahobino with the reason bosses because if you hold a reason it is possible to summon and fuse with a god that shares the same views which sounds a lot like how Nahobino are formed. kagatsuchi serves the same purpose as the throne tho I don’t think that you gain it’s power after creation. People might bring up counter arguments like creator nanashi or that he stood up to Stephen which is false he had the other masiahs (including demifiend) alongside him and even taking down god he still needed help from satan in the anarchy ending. Also Nanashi could technically be considered a Nahobino due to how dagda somewhat fueses with nanshi. Yeah this series has serious problems with power scaling also Koneko Lucifer is canonically is stronger than the one in 4/4a because in SMT 2,3 he’s stated to be an equal to satan in strength who is god’s right hand and not a true aspect of him like he is in 4a. This series is fucking confusing if you want to see who’s more powerful and yes I know that this primarily about demifiend and Nanashi but that’s because they’re the most debated in strength.
About time someone does not down play Demi fiend like other idiots I seen here and also remember Demi fiend destroyed the entire Amala multiverse to such a point that nothing else could be created anymore so Demi fiend is arguably the strongest smt character next to Stephan and axiom that is
I do feel some things to note... 1: Lucifer kind of wanted to lose in SMTV, and I feel if he wasn't going easy there, he was definitely going easy on the Demi-Fiend in SMT3. It's kinda hard to judge how much effort he was putting into either fight 2: I feel that actual playable Demi-Fiend should be considered a separate entity from all his various boss version/s as far as power levels go. Cause actual MC Demi-Fiend is certainly strong, but his boss incarnations are always presented as being on a whole other level, seeming more to be a nearly implacable entity that is bored and looking for a good fight. Toying with its food, and instantly annihilating anything that doesn't play nicely with Gaea Rage Otherwise good video as always
@@cooldudeachyut Nocturne Lucifer doesn't even use _Megidolaon_ in his boss fight he is *absolutely* going easy in that fight (altho in all Lucifer boss fights he always says he is going full power)
The Nahobino beating Demi-Fiend, Lucifer, took their essences, and reclaim the Throne of God definitely means he's up there as one of the most powerful Megaten characters.
@@dorkistantkd6233 I think the Nahobino is the strongest given how not only he's on the same level as the Demi-Fiend, but also defeated Shiva and a much more powerful version of Lucifer. The same Lucifer who defeated God. And the status of being a Nahobino is much higher because you're neither demon or human. You're like the true form of what a demon and human should be like. And Demi-Fiend is just a true demon. While powerful in their own right, pales in comparison to the transformation of the Nahobino.
Nahobino. Nakajima is only there as an interim Ubiquitous One until Rui is fated to surpass him. Considering YHVH himself was a Nahobino according to V, that means Nanashi himself is likely one. That being said, Nahobino is the one to break the cycle. The only MT protagonist stronger than him is El/Ciel from Last Bible. *This guy fought the fucking Great Will.* He died, but it didn't stick.
Nanashi was revived with Dadga's Power and became a puppet; They never fused. Furthermore, a Nahobino is formed when the Knowledge of a God becomes merged back with the Demon who it previously belonged to. Nanashi does not have Dadga's Knowledge. Possession does not equal fusion. If that were the case, Danu & The Fairy Queen as well as Inanana & Toki would of been unstoppable forces, which they were not. Demons in SMT have lent their powers to characters before.
The ones to be considered as "Nahobino" in IV timeline are Walter (Vanilla), Jonathan (Vanilla) and Flynn (Apoc) Nanashi, sadly, is merely a puppet and depending which ending you choose, he either stays human or the new creator god, not a Nahobino Edit: I forgot to mention that Bonds route Nanashi is WAY, WAY weaker compared to Massacre route Nanashi
@@MegaLinket Despite me saying they can only be considered, not me saying they ARE "Nahobino" like SMTV MC, Jonathan and Walter pretty much agree fusing to become as Merkabah and Lucifer despite the consequences, it was never explained in IV why fusing was necessary but players could assume now with SMTV out Also, you could think of it like what Khonsu planned with Miyazu but Isis told MC what would happen if Khonsu and Miyazu became a Nahobino On Flynn's case, his is very vague, if not confusing since he's forced to fuse with Krishna, but regardless Flynn turned into a sort of "Nahobino" Edit: Oh, about the knowledge possessing thing, it's possibly similar to Miyazu's case (them ceasing to existence, laying dormant or just straight up being absorb by the more powerful being)
@@greengardens6959 That's fine and all, but they are definitely not or comparable to Nahobino. Walter and Johnathan gave themselves up to allow Lucifer and Merkabah physical forms, essentially becoming their vessels. This is what happened with Toki and Innana in SMT4A. In verse, it had been explained. A Nahobino is a God in its truest form and Demons can only become Nahobino by reclaiming their lost Knowledge. As stated in SMTV, the only reason why Nahobinos were now able to exist was because God was defeated and thus God's Divine Decree that prevented Nahobinos from existing was lifted. There is no other way to interpret what happened in SMT4 because it has already been explained. Not only would it had been impossible for Nahobinos to exist while God was alive, but all examples provided all have other explanations.
@@Qaswer1000Yup. Not only is Nahobi-no-Okami the strongest of his kind, but he's the one Lucifer entrusted to break the cycle of metempsychosis the series is named after.
Crazy how the newbie Nahobino kinda Rocketed Demi-Fiend up several tiers just by being a super in SMTV, and if you really want to wank Demi-Fiend you can argue that he wasn't going all out due to not dying when losing to Nahobino
You can also say that DF didn't even use Masakados, he only resists everything instead of nullifying it during the fight and gifts you his essence after the fight, which does null everything
The Demi-fiend is still leagues above the Nahobino. In their fight, he doesn't use Masakados and holds back a guaranteed party wipe attack as long as the Nahobino amuses him. The fight is brutal, and yet he may as well be patting the Nahobino on the head and calling him a good boy with how patronizing his setup is.
@@ssjeyfreeman0146 If you mean the stranger demon cheese, then I'm specifically not including that since the way it overrides the Rage threshold is quite stupid. And again, DF is constantly holding back. Sure, you may put Safeguard on all your demons to work around Masakados when busting his support, and sure, you can attack him with piercing moves, but all it takes for him to win is opening with Gaea Rage instead of Javelin Rain. He has an "I Win" button that he's not touching entirely out of courtesy.
@@illusive-mike I think the gaea rage skill isn’t even as busted because you can have like three lives in a fight and tbh all you need is one turn to take him down two max. And even in the scene after the fight Nahobino was chilling just like DF was. Neither of them were tired implying that neither of them went all out. That’s just going off of that fight alone feats wise though nahobino holds definitely more impressive ones and a more versatile skill pool, and the ability to steal skills from whoever he fights. Demi fiend still at the top of the scale but I honestly think Nahobino has him beat.
@@ssjeyfreeman0146 Feats-wise, Nahobino at Lucifer beats DF at Lucifer, and then he gets at least two massive power-ups. The issue here is time: DF seems quite unique in that despite his fully demonic nature he still has a human's potential for growth, so we can't trust that his post-Nocturne appearances aren't him at lvl 10000. As for beating him in a few turns, I wonder which difficulty and what amount of cheese you have in mind. I know that his AI can be broken with substitute demons and that on Safety it's possible to outright one-shot him, but that's kind of the thing: none of it works if he just spams GR out of the gate. Even if he summons as the first action that still means that he wins in 2 turns WITH Endure and the Goat. Even on the smaller scale, I ran a demon with only a Resist Phys and he wasted time on Raging Blow instead of Freikugel or Chaotic Will. He's working out with a punching bag, and that punching bag is no real threat to him at all. The music is a remix of his regular encounter theme for a reason. As for neither of them being tired after - Beads do that, as does Diarahan. In the fight itself he very noticeably redlines when his health goes low, implying that he's seriously taking a beating, even though he can stop it at any moment.
@@illusive-mike Alright as far as the mediarahan point that’s valid I didn’t think about that. For the cheese beating him in a few turns it’s the beast magatsuhi skill. Multiplies damage based on your low health so DF nearly killing you actually helps. And you can stack endure and enduring soul. So it just lets you nuke him lol. Now Looking over it again if Nahobino isn’t stronger then they both just endlessly stalemate. You said DF still has a humans potential for growth but Nahobino does as well. Sophia even notices when you come back after beating DF that you are wayy stronger than before the clash. So yeah the cycle would be they fight, tie, learn from that fight and get stronger, repeat. They’d also only be using each other to get stronger because who else would be giving them enough of a challenge to make them stronger at this point lol.
Nahobino, Aleph and Nanashi are the closest to be the most powerful ones. However the "God" term in SMT is kinda variant. For example, Shekinah is a goddess and sometimes considered a true God or Yaldabaoth on NINE. But the feat that he beated Lucifer with God's knowledge, is clearly the strongest Lucifer of all. Being back by entities as Satan Apocalypse or even YHVH. I know they just said God as general, but Kagutsugi is another God and is said to be the weakest of them. And I know what you are saying: "Then Demi Fiend is not the strongest is him?" But Demi Fiend defeated Lucifer at it's truest form and then gained his power, being able to persue The Great Will. Flynn is as powerful as Walter's Lucifer or Merkabah. But Aleph and Nanashi are, by far, the only ones that defeated YHVH. I will say that nahobino is Between Demi Fiend and Nanashi. Since is clearly more powerful than Lucifer in any form. And defeated but not killed Demi Fiend at all. Then he gained God's Throne and has the same or closest to the power of Nanashi in Anarchy Ending.
Nahobino is the only known character to transcend even the plane of existence that Transcended (God) Lucifer was on as well as absorb the Power (Knowledge) of God and Lucifer. At the end of the true ending, the protagonist was seemingly able to destroy (or delay based on the cliffhanger) the Mandela System, something God and God Lucifer had no power over. Although I do love Nanashi and see him as one of the strongest protagonists in SMT, The Nahobino's ability at the end of the game simply outclasses what Nanashi could do. What is becoming God to one who transcended someone who transcended further than God (Lucifer)? Where Nanashi can and has rewrite the universe, The Nahobino can do things that can potentially rewrite a mechanism(s) that affects the multiverse of SMT: The Mandela System, which is attributed as to why Gods and Demons will always appear throughout the multiverse of SMT (as stated by Lucifer and is further expanded on if you played the true ending of V).
@@MegaLinket Is said to be the strongest and I lile the character. And yes, I know is one of the most powerful. But as I said before, I can't simply put YHVH because in SMT there are many gods than just YHVH that holds their universe. Although Lucifer knows the existance of the great will, any Nahobino ending (except the dethrone one) is undoubtly in a Higher state than many of thr SMT protag. But of all, TDE Semi Fiend and Nanashi Anarchy obtained ultimate power and became even more powerful versions of themselves, and never stated their true power at last. I know the fight Between Nahobino and Demi Fiend (The best fight by far) but TDE Demi Fiend is objetively more powerful than Lucifer's gods knowledge. And since Lucifer has god's knowledge, he is more powerful than any version of him. But it is said that the true knowledge of a Nahobino is in an specific person. And I am theorizing that Lucifer is the life of Demi Fiend as this is the knowledge of him. If they mixed up together, they will be the most powerful entity of SMT franchise for sure within the SMT V Lore. Nanashi beated YHVH in his truest state, but the anarchy one is the one that helds the strongest version of him. And he became as Nahobino: The one that stands the throne. However, it is unsure if Nahobino is as poweful in Chaos and Law route, rather than it's true neutral ending. Because in his true neutral ending seems to be at the same as Nanashi' Anarchy route to be honest. between Nanashi's Anarchy ending and Nahobino's True Neutral Ending is this fight since they are both arguably the most powerful of thr SMT protag. Demi Fiend only if he fused with Lucifer as its knowledge, since this game points the division of demons and men, and by lore Demi Fiend is, for sure, Lucifer's Knowledge. That's maybe a theory, but is a strong one. And SMT V gave me pin points that may be Demi Fiend is Lucifer's knowledge, as its God would be Kagutsuchi rather than YHVH, since many connections between SMT III and SMT V
@@dreamsboi5085 Nanashi in Freedom is WAY weaker than in Anarchy. In Anarchy he was the first to be God of all the Messiahs. Aleph is the first one that, canonically, defeated YHVH by himself (the second is Nanashi in Anarchy. In Freedom he wasn't fighting alone). And I see Demi Fiend has the power to fight The Great Will (TGW) (who is way more powerful than YHVH) and Nahobino is the second one to adquire God. Although chaos and law are mostly the same in terms of strength, law nahobino is more powerful than chaos. but true neutral Nahobino is, by far, the most powerful one, since beated Lucifer with all his might, and became the one and only God in his universe. The main difference states that in SMTV, God is more than implied to be Kagutsuchi (which is the weakest version of TGW and YHVH the strongest) And Demi Fiend is the one that killed him and Lucifer with all his might and archive the chaos power becoming the true one and only King Of Chaos. While Nahobino defeated a Lucifer with Kagutsuchi's Knowledge, giving him a boost way more powerful than Lucifer's Walter unleashed, but almost imperfect, since the game stated that the demon's own knowledge is the only one to adquire one demon's truest power of God, and another one cannot fulfill that. That's why Nahobino had the advantage to be the one perfect god, while Lucifer is the most powerful imperfect god in the game. And Abel... I haven't played Devil Survivor yet. But I am sure that Nahobino and Demi Fiend are both different sides of the same coin: Nahobino The True God, and Demi Fiend the King Of Chaos.
@@carlosmeza4524 1. Yeah I know anarchy >peace 2. Nope, aleph didn't beat Yhvh at his strongest. 3. Abel straight kills a full powered Yhvh, just like demi fiend. 4. Nahobino beat lucifer with Yhvh's knowledge not kagutsuchi's
