How powerful were the Elves during the War of the Ring? 

I cannot argue about the woodland realm, because they have been under constant war since the Last Alliance. Maybe they could even raise 7000. Rivendell had only Noldor and Sindar, all very powerful, so I think you nailed it. You absolutely nailed Lindon. The only realm which I think you did not give the most reasonable numbers is Lothlorien. They have not been at war since the last Alliance, because Galadriel protected the borders. That leaves us 3000 years. 3000 years of prosperity and might. And Tolkien said that Lothlorien could not fall, unless Sauron came himself to destroy it. Of course, that was partly the strength og Galadriel and her ring, but also the elves were not weak.They destroyed two orc armies during the war and then attacked Dol Guldur. So I really believe that Lothlorien can raise not less than 8000. It may not be bigger than Mirkwood but only a part of Mirkwood is inhabited by the elves

Darth Gandalf I would love to see your estimate for the populations of Dorwinion, Breeland, Northern Dunedain, Dale and Dol Amroth and perhaps the strength of mordor, Easterlings and Haradrim.

It's too bad that we have no idea how many Avari Elves still dwelt in the lands east of Rhovanion, or if Sauron had essentially exterminated them by the end of the Third Age. I've wondered if any of the East-elves might have settled in the forested region near Dorwinion on the north-western shore of the Sea of Rhun. According to Tolkien--in LotR, Appendix F--the majority of Silvan Elves in both Mirkwood and Lorien were Avari rather than either Sindar Elves or Nandor Elves who still maintained the old ways of their eastern kin.

Dol amroth is Hybrid between elves and Men when prince of dol amroth met Legolas he actually bows due to him being part elve

The feeling of the light going out of the world with the Elves' departure is such a strong thread in Tolkien's work, said to reflect his views on contemporary society...

Really love these discussions on war of the rings lore! Great JOB! Thanks for Sharing!

Happy Gondorian New Year and Tolkien Reading Day! Cool video.

This is GREAT thank you and keep content coming 👍

Super job and elves are extremely interesting and a bit of a mystery. Like when Sam said, "And I reckon there's Elves and Elves. They're all Elvish enough, but they're not all the same..." Quite right Mr. Gamgee! In LoTR, there seems to be a kingdom and three what I'll call enclaves. Interestingly, the elf kingdom elves are kind of country bumpkims compared to the three enclaves that all have ties to Tolkien's ancient world of the first age. We're talking about Rivendell, Lothlorien, and Mithlond (the Grey Havens), which is the one we know the least about and seems to exist to build ships for elves to head to the west. Elf leaders of the three enclaves hold the three elven rings until Cirdan gives it to Gandalf (which is VERY interesting, isn't it?) and seem to be powerful folks. More so than anyone from Greenwood the Great. I've always looked at Thranduil's kingdom as a kind of cheap, economy pack version of the far more powerful elven kingdoms and city-states of earlier times. In a decline much like Gondor is when compared to Numenor. Like you stated, sylvan elves do not seem as advanced as high elves. I think that the elves that are slowly leaving middle earth are mostly those from the enclaves. Mithlond is not in place and led by a powerful elf by accident I think. I also believe that Thranduil's kingdom would have just kept declining until maybe those elves eventually left as well. We do hear about Legolas departing middle earth with Gimli. A great point on interpreting Tolkien. All we can do is do our best and make our best guesses. Fun to do that of course! ;-)

very good video concept!!! elves as well as the dwarves, their numbers are pretty much unknown for us! do more ideas like this, no other lotr youtuber does this

This is well reasoned. Good video

"The Woodland Realm is ruled by Kind Thranduil." - Darth Gandalf

"This is Rivendell!!" ~Elrond

I speak Sindarin. The shade of my ancient ancestor, Isildur, still speaks to me in that tongue on the south banks of the Rhein. In the old days, he tells me, they named it Anduin.

I agree with a comment you made early on. The third and fourth ages sadden me so much with the disappearances of the non-human races. There's a part of me that wishes that Arda never became our world so that the magic could remain

Really appreciate your work! The only adjustment, although it's a detail compared to the work made checking facts would be, could you offer also unit of measurement in the metric system as well, in addition maybe as text conversionto some numbersyou provide? Once again, not critical or hindering your work, but a nice thing to have. Thanks again for your work!

"If the elves start fleeing into the ocean, it means something really bad is about to happen"

Elves: "If I get killed, I will be reborn in a fresh new body, ready to chill in what is basically a heaven for ever. So I may just fight against Sauron anyway, because I cannot really die. OR, I have a better idea, lets run away with tail between legs on a cramped ship to prove how badass I am...

I agree with your numerical assessment of the elven realms.

Rivendell may be a "House" but the valley it is situated in is huge, much bigger than the shows adaptation of it. During the War of Sauron and the Elves many refuges fled to the Valley to the point that Sauron considered the forces gathered there a threat. Suggesting that there were several thousand warriors and tens of thousands of civilians now hiding in Imladris. Then again in the War of the Last Alliance Rivendell was where Gil-Galads and Elendil gathered their army, supplied and armed it and their army at least consisted of the low tens of thousands and likely bigger. So the Valley Rivendell was situated in was large enough to house and provide enough food, water and other materials for tens of thousands of people to live there for years even if the Valley was under siege like in the War of Elves of Sauron.

I think the numbers of The Woodland Real are perhaps a bit low. Oropher (Legolas's grandfather and then king) "assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joined with the lesser army of Amdir" (Amdir was the king of Lothlorien at the time). His son, Thranduil, led only a third of that force back after suffering heavy casualties, but the population of the Woodland Realm grew in numbers during the Third Age according to Tolkien, so by the end of The Third Age they should have been back to something like they were before. And- 5 000-6 000 isn't really "a great army" so I'd expect the numbers to be higher. Also the elves in Lothlorien are also Silvan (with a Sindar king), just like those in MIrkwood. And while The Silvan Elves were "ill-equipped with armour or weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West" in the Battle of the Last Alliance and suffered because of it, they might well have learned from that and become better equipped. And let's not forget that the Woodland elves won all their battles in the Third Age. They managed to defeat Sauron's forces in the War of the Ring while the men of The Dale and the dwarfs of Erebor were initially defeated and only rallied back after the fall of Sauron. Lothlorien also repelled Sauron's forces, but they had the aid of Galadriels poweful magic. The Mirkwood elves only had their soldiers to fall back on. So all in all I think The Woodland Realm is being underestimated here.

Great video, I totally agree with your estimation. Anyway, it's good you also mention that the Elves from the Woodland realm had the least powerful weapons compared with the Elves from the other realms. However even though they had such problem, I think the Elves of Mirkwood is still a very formidable warrior especially when their fighting in the wooded terrain, that is why I am not surprised they can win against Sauron's army in the Battle Under the Trees (I also think their army was also supported by the Beornings, which make them more harder to beat).

I think Mirkwood had closer to 10k size army than 5k. That area is huge and they haven't had any mass casualties over the ages.

The exact video I was looking for

Reasonable estimates. I would think that the Sylvan elves under Thranduil and other Noldor would have learned about their weapon making, etc.

Nice video, I mostly agree. That 2-300 men of Elrond was probably the most formidable force that time :)

Is tough to quantify, since we're in a world where there is such a range in potency between the speaking peoples and amongst individuals -- where, as Gandalf would remind us in 'The Last Debate', "..there are names among us worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece." He was surely not only referring to himself or the three elves in the vanguard, or obsequiously flattering the princes in his presence. This is probably an honest estimate of how Great the heroes and champions among the Dúnedain were, even in the waning years.

Would you do a collaboration video with Men of the west's channel and History of middle earth's channel plz?

As for Lothlorien in Fourth Age, the diminishment of it's population may actually be connected rather to migration across river to southern part of the Mirkwood, Eryn Lasgalen, the southern portion was taken by Celeborn as East Lorien, the actual 'golden wood' may have been simply partly abandoned but still someone had to live there since Arwen was buried there after death of Aragorn. With the power of the elven rings gone, the mallorn trees may have deteroriated, the general power that protected Lothlorien so Galadhrim moving out to live in southern portion of the great forest across the Anduin may have been the reason why Lorien so quickly was emptied.

IMHO A weapon is only as good as the person wielding it, and it would seem that having to contend with Orcs and Spiders, and also having fought in the War of the Last Alliance and the Battle of Five Armies, I would think that the Woodland Realm Elves would be sufficiently battle hardened to the point that it would negate their inferior weapons. Also, anyone know when was it said that their weapons and armour were inferior? Might add some context to assessing how weak their armour and weapons were, in that if the statement was made sometime in the past, the Woodland elves would have had time to remedy that inferiority. Just some thoughts.

Great video if you could actually do a video with your estimate in the fourth age exactly when each race left works Dobbins trolls elves dwarves hobbits how long each race lasted before it disappeared

So could there be more elves living outside the elven realms?

Good shit. I’d think that Lindon’s population, given its size, would have a much larger elven population!

Bravo! You did a yeoman's job with little to go on.

i love your videos and i think you did a good job! although i believe you are underestimating the amount of elves in loth lorien and the way Galadriel’s ring nenya works. Loth lorien was the closest thing to the undying lands in middle earth and it was the “greatest” of the elven realms and many elves from all over middle earth flocked to it because of this. This was accomplished because of how Nenya works. the eleven rings are the most powerful aside from the one but their power is in protection, preservation, and protection. Galadriel was the one of the most powerful beings in middle earth in the third age. in either the books or his letters tolkien states that Loth Lorien would only fall if souron himself came with the One ring. so i think loth lorien would be the 2nd most populous land of the elves because of protections galadriel brought along with the fact she is an old, wise and powerful elf of the noldor and kinsman of gilgalad and her husband is a sindar lord who is one of the last kinsman of thingol the greatest King of the sindar. - - also i really likes what you said about elrond and rivendell being a HOUSE. i knew that but never realized the implications of it. i thought was really interesting. GOOD JOB

I think Rivendell's army may be a litte bit larger, Imladris is a kind of a hidden vale and not a single house, and I thought they have some companies around the Trollshawns and maybe in the Angle to help to protected the Northern Dunedain refugees as well as acting as a recoinassance force against a larger orc attack from the Misty Mountains and the Ettenmoors. The same I think about the dunedain rangers, their entire force were not the tens of rangers in the Grey Company, I guess they were only their captains and/or their best warriors, most of them were protecting the borders of the Angle where their women, children and elders were residing, as well as some rangers were still kept outside the Angle, around Bree, the Shire, Evendim, the North-Downs, the Weather Hills and even around Rivendell itself, mostly in the Trollshaws. I will put the Rivendell/Imladris army with around 500-1000 troops considering this, and also considering that most of them were veterans of war, mostly Noldor, beign refugees from Eregion, but even some people from Lindon who didn't want to sail west for some reason.

Lothlorien lead the attack on Dol Guldur thats right but they thought there together wit the woodland elves :)

The army of Dale in the war of the ring. I imagine the numbers from the hobbit must be a good starting point :)

Need to do how powerful the orcs were during the war of the ring now, that would be the final race unless you do Easterlings and Harad

I agree with all of your estimates except Imladris / Rivendell. Elrond was Gil-Galad's chosen heir for the high kingship. Elrond refused the crown because there were not sufficient numbers of Noldor to warrant a high king BUT he was also the heir of Doriath. All of the elves who remained from Gondolin and Doriath who had not sailed would have remained with their sovereign - even if he did not wear a crown and was called a king. Elrond still supported the Dùnedain of Arnor as well as aided in keeping the roads and byways free in Eregion for the passage of elves journeying to the Grey Havens. These two reasons plus defending a realm and a royal family of significant lineage would require a far larger warrior count than just 300. How much larger? I would estimate 2500 to 4000 warriors...not enough to fight off Sauron or even Saruman but enough to ensure the safety of a race of people and protect a significant royal family of the Eldar race.

I wonder what ultimately happened to Thranduil and the woodland realms.

In the lord of the rings it sounded like Lorien had a pretty big population.

I’m reading through what the Hobbit and the Fellowship have to say about Rivendell. All that can be gleaned from the Hobbit is that elves live in the valley and not in the “house” alone. While I don’t picture elves as living densely populated together, they are extremely social creatures and would presumably fill the valley in clusters. In the chapter of the Fellowship “Many Meetings” we get some information on the power that resides in Rivendell. And that power comes from the great elf lords who reside there. Glorfindel is a great example of one who can stand against the Nazgul. Frodo asks Gandalf if Rivendell is safe and Gandalf says that in Rivendell there are “some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar... they have great power” “Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for awhile”. These statements definitely speak to the power of Rivendell being in specific lords and not necessarily armies, but throughout Tolkien’s history of Middle earth, power to resist the overwhelming forces of darkness does always comprise some level of military resistance.

It likely didn't help that the elves conflicted with the other inhabitants of Middle Earth i.e. when the army of elves battled the army of dwarves in the third hobbit movie where a lot were killed on both sides before the orcs came along and overwhelmed them. Along with that the elves didn't really prepare themselves or likely believed that they would be brought in with the battles against Sauron & his armies which was why they couldn't fully support in the same way as Gondor, Rohan, and other kingdoms of men came together.

Compared to other races the Elves could field a far larger percentage of their population in their armies if needed, perhaps up to 45% of their total population. This is due to the obvious fact that elves are immortal. In comparison historically in a total war, during WW2, most countries could only field about 10% or their total population.

Does Tolkien mentioned in his novels the life or short stories on the undying lands where Elves,Bilbo,Frodo,Gandalf,Legolas,Gimli and Samwise goes after leaving the Middle Earth...

To Darth Gandalf What about the dark elves the elves that were twisted earlier by morgoth, where they even any around at this time or does it just not mention them?

When we guessing is hard to nail it … but overall is somehow reasonable but the numbers of lothorien I think was more … even en imaladris( Rivendell) probably have more warriors… I will say if was a 1000 ppl there as you suggested … I will say a 70% will be warriors sense that was a stronghold and they ride also and patrol around the misty mountains 🏔 the other thing we need to understand that sense elves don’t die some will perfect their craft to a level that any mortal can’t 🙏🏼✌️👍

Who should I talk to if I feel I am the reason the elves are fleeing into the ocean? Are there any warning signs I should look out for?

My estimate Lindon - 20k population (transient), 5k army-navy Rivendell - 1k population, 300 army Lorien- 15k population (they have few towns), 5k army Mirkwood- 20-30k population(large realm), 10k army Total 55-65k (diminishing) population 20k army (spread out forces)

I think ppl forget that middle earth isn’t an old world it’s still a baby, there isn’t a lot of every race

I always assumed the elves were greater in number than the men of Gondor and Rohan. In “The Quest Of Erebor” from the unfinished tales, Gandalf states that he is sure that Sauron’s original plan (before Gollum wandered into Mordor and made Sauron freak out) was to build up his forces until he was “strong enough” to attack Lorien and Rivendell. I always took that to mean that Lorien and Rivendell were the two strongest centres of opposition. Granted, both are aided by the power of eleven rings, but I would find it hard to conclude that Elrond‘s ring could replace the tens of thousands of soldiers he would need to repel the army Sauron would throw at him. Does it seem like Rivendell had 20000 soldiers? No. But I would be forced to suggest they had several thousand if this comment from Gandalf is to have any weight. I would guess Lorien’s army would be at an absolute minimum, 10000.

Are any elves "not warrior types" though? The books seem to describe all elves including women, seniors, musicians, etc. as having almost supernatural martial skill, saying for example that any women "that had not born child" (for some reason that is an important distinction?) was similar in strength and skill in battle to an elvan man even though only the men rode forth to battle. Galadriel is an example of this, she fought to defend her people during the kinslaying and was both an athlete and ring-roided up elf witch, but Celeborn leads Lorien in battle. Even among the men, even though elvan healers supposedly never hunted and only went to battle in desperate times Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald and a skilled warrior. Cirdan was also lieutenant of Gil-Galad despite being an old man whose main talents were fortune telling and ship building. This probably helps explain why the despite being so diminished in number, the elves were still able to repel many attacks from Sauron and even lead the attack on Dol Goldur after his defeat.

Almost a whole percent of the first Age elven hosts!

What about the Avari?

Where were the elves at helms deep from?

Please please do Rhun

Great vid! But I think Caras Galadthon had a higher population than you’re giving it credit for. The elves of Lorien weren’t living in the woodlands, they all lived in the tree city. I can imagine like a hundred elves living in every Mallorn tree like it is an apartment complex. During the second assault upon Lorien the place is attacked by both Moria and Dol Guldor, and they win! And win again after that, then go on the offensive. However I think their loses were probably more grievous than the books let on. Like you said, Lorien is abandoned by the time of Elessar’s death, that implies a lot of elf-widows going into the west...

Woodlandrealm most certainly the most powerful in numbers... but in actual fighting prowess and equipment, I would rank Lindon and Lorien higher! They had the knowledge, skills and power of the High Elves (and each of the three other realms additionally had one of the three Elven Rings too), whereas the mainly Silvan elves of the Woodlandrealm ranked quite a bit behind them! The battle of the last alliance is a good example! Their losses were MUCH higher in comparison to the other realms

Rivendell realistically has less than a hundred elves. Also, please use the website called "Henneth Annun" which basically only quotes the books directly.

Are you Australian mate?

10000 is alot when you can live forever and always train for thousands of years

How powerful were armies in the second age?

Alot less then at a the beginning of the first age, we can assume. The entire age was marked by a slow but steady decline in the numbers of the Eldar in Middle-Earth - by the time of the War of the Ring I doubt the elves had even a quarter of the strength in numbers that they were able to supply during the time of Elendil and Gil-Galad.

Easterlings next just because they have a crap ton of people

Do the orc army and urak hai

how powerful were the hobbits during the war of the rings?

The pronunciation of Lindon is incorrect.

Why do the Elves have to disappear if the Age of men is coming? Aren't they both children of Ilúvatar?

You manage to pull numbers like a magician pulls rabbits from a hat amazing. You must love mathematics and Tolkien so if you lived in that world you'd be a elves king or ? I worked with my hands so possibly I'd be a dwarf or halfling with a cool cottage under a hill .

I think Lothlórien had 6000 and Thranduil 10000

There is something I just don't get. Why wouldn't Gondor just move into Rivendell and other elven strongholds after the elves are gone. I mean, these are all preexisting settlements located in strategic positions across the land. All they have to do is move in, they don't even have to fight anyone, and suddenly they have vastly improved their power projection capabilities. And then there is the fact that the elves are on good terms with men and they probably don't want these places to fall into ruin. Why not give them over to men so these places can keep existing in one form or another. It just seems really stupid to me that they would leave these places to fall into ruin when they actually have options to keep them preserved.

Woodland elves did pretty good in the battle of 5 armies .... Kinda like the 300

well I could help increasing elf populations, lend me several elves girls, it will be done

"Free" isn't a number.

Well, how many elves lives in the west then?

But Galadriel and had a Ring of Power doesn’t that mean anything?

I wanna know what the breeding habits of elves were. It's like they don't reproduce. You'd think over thousands of years manpower (elfpower??LOL) wouldn't be a problem.

how physically strong are elves

Someone is hacking

Dorwinion elves?

When the maker of this video states that the Elves of Lorien were aided by the Ring of Galadriel, he forgets that the Elven Rings were not crafted to be used in war. That is stated plainly in several places in Tolkien's stories. So, while the number of fighting Elves was growing less, those of Lorien were aided by the power that was native to Galadriel & Celeborn.💀

His name is Thranduil not Franduil. Lol

God i really dont like the elvish armour design in the movies...! Dont think tolkien would have liked it either

These numbers all seem far to low for a medieval setting

So do elves NOT... bang. For being immortals. Seems like they won’t screw to save there species.

Why are there no black people or elves in the lotr?

Weak.