How Save Scumming Makes Baldur's Gate 3 Better ⁽ᶠᵒʳ ᵐᵉ⁾

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There's something hilariously harsh to me about the term save scum-that is, to reload a prior save to undo the mechanical or narrative consequences of a choice you make in a game. Lots of people apparently see utilising the save system as unsportsmanlike, cheating the game, or optimising all the challenge out of it. I, on the other hand, have been save scumming like crazy in Baldur's Gate 3, and I've been having a much better time for it. In this video I talk about Baldur's Gate 3, its Dungeons and Dragons roots, and importantly its place as a storytelling tool rather than a more typically combat focused experience where the goal is to simply "win". Crucially, to that end, I see save scumming as less a tool for cheating, and more as a pacing device-allowing you to more carefully place characters in situations where things like combat become most meaningful to them. Let's talk about it!
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Text intro animation by Isaac Holland - / drazgames

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26 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 244

@InquisitorThomas 10 месяцев назад

You save scum because you’re too much much of coward to accept the consequences of your decisions. I save scum because I’m roleplaying a chronomancer who is too much of a coward to face the consequences of his decisions. We are not the same.

@keinname1896 10 месяцев назад

This is just perfection

@Apethantos 10 месяцев назад

lol

@NeostormXLMAX 10 месяцев назад

you should play 'caves of qud'. they have this psychic ability "clairvoyance" that basicly acts as a save point where you activate clairvoyance and everything after that point you are basicly technically on a vision so if you die in the future you will always go back into that same point when you first saw into the future. unless you use some quantum entanglement shit or cast clairvoyance inside your vision again then reseting it

@NeostormXLMAX 10 месяцев назад

and its built inuniverse so it isn't even save scumming its an ability you can investin and before they patched it you could use it to reset shops and certain item effects since you can just use clairvoyance to check beforehand

@D71219ONE 9 месяцев назад

I’m roleplaying that the Mind Flayers have the same power from the film Edge of Tomorrow (Live Die Repeat). I’m just Tom Cruise slowly getting further in the game. 😂

@Choteron3 10 месяцев назад

Love that baldurs gate 3 let you quick save in dialogue scenes

@WritingOnGames 10 месяцев назад

YUP

@utisti4976 10 месяцев назад

I love that too.

@NeostormXLMAX 10 месяцев назад

@@WritingOnGames I feel like this is the complete opposite to what disco elyisum does that basicly autosaves everything since they want you to experience the fail states in the story

@jessierine3981 10 месяцев назад

WHAT?! damn. You have saved me so much time

@360dom360 10 месяцев назад

Til 25 hours in

@nezfromhki 10 месяцев назад

I think there's a mile of difference between someone reloading every time they fail any dialogue check even if it's something fairly inconsequential (which I always assumed people mostly referred to when talking about savescumming) and someone reloading if ,say, an important character dies because of bad luck in combat. And again, it's all down to preference. For some perfectionists it is better to learn to deal with failure while for others not being able to try different approaches after making mistakes could make the game simply unfun and too challenging.

@eyvahehyeh8927 10 месяцев назад

When I was a kid I minmaxed everything and wanted the perfect outcome in every situation. Now, ad an adult, I have much more fun just rolling with the punches - AND the dice rolls. One of the most interesting scenarios I had was when my main character was taken to prison in act 2, and had to get out somehow, and then reclaim their items. As a kid I would just reload, and miss out on all the fun. 😄

@hankwen 10 месяцев назад

It seems to be a semantic issue at heart. Save scumming really should be limited to where you're avoiding nearly all negative outcomes in combat and making combat un-inspiringly trivial

@johannlabertaler6095 10 месяцев назад

I have to live with my mistakes in real life already, don't need that shit in my video games

@WritingOnGames 10 месяцев назад

So this is a video I've had fully written and voiced for a good couple of weeks now-Armored Core review, Gamescom and other life stuff all got in the way of me editing/posting it. Cue me excitedly getting ready to put the finishing touches on the upload, before doing a cursory RU-vid search yesterday and finding a video from James Stephanie Sterling on the same subject, that touches on much of the same points, comparing BG3 to their real life experiences with D&D storytelling, etc. Of course it's disheartening when you've worked hard on something only to find someone else has beaten you to the punch (which to be clear is none of their concern, as if that needed to be stated), but it is what it is! They made a great video. I decided to still post my video rather than scrap it because a) again, I worked hard on it and b) I think there are enough distinctions between the videos to still be novel. That said, I thought it was only right to acknowledge that I'm not the first to say a lot of this stuff and to link James Stephanie Sterling's video so you can see that for yourself: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Q6pk0iHDxts.html Anyway, hope you enjoy both videos and thanks for watching!

@JaydevRaol 10 месяцев назад

Appreciate your honesty and efforts. 🙌 Thanks for all the awesome content! 🙏

@ITNoetic 10 месяцев назад

No need for paragraphs on why you made a video on the same subject as someone else. For example, there are multiple reviews of Bg3 on here as well, and multiple build guides for the same classes and builds. Just make your videos and forget about being first or alone in making them

@yoyosaur 10 месяцев назад

I thought save scumming was much more about "oh I failed a persuasion check" not "i died". I would never call save scumming a "i died, and I'm reloading my save"

@WritingOnGames 10 месяцев назад

I wouldn't call it save scumming when the entire party dies, no. The scenario I'm talking about is when one or two characters die, then the game just continues.

@bobbarker8405 10 месяцев назад

@@WritingOnGames The example you used is kind of strange because any character in your party can be revived with no consequence. I'm not even sure you can continue the game without the player character. There are times later in the game where major non-party characters can be killed in combat. These you absolutely should save scum because there is litterally nothing gained from letting them die. In a case I witnessed, the dead character was presumed to still be alive by other characters even though they were literally standing next to his dead body.

@GRIFTYRODRIGUEZ 10 месяцев назад

@@bobbarker8405 I guess a lot of people are missing that NPC lol

@GreenBlueWalkthrough 10 месяцев назад

True like who is beating Halo on legendary on one life or Super mario or Souls borne?

@UnreasonableOpinions 10 месяцев назад

The easiest antidote to savescumming is to make failure as interesting as success. Getting the bad outcome shouldn’t hate you off from a story, it should be the entry point to a different one. More than a few games like, say, The Fist of Mars have a dark timeline branch that is more compelling and better-written than the success one. Ironman works in XCOM and co because I’m losing things for good keeps the game challenging and lets a story emerge. My preferred story path in Mass Effect is Bleak Timeline, where every choice has to be the worst outcome and you have to let each companion die unless they can die later in a more sad way, and that takes MORE work and care to set up than a win-the-most run. If failure just means you get to sit outside watching the good story happen, forget it. Different writing is a good fail state, bad or no writing is simply not.

@MrWhygodwhy 9 месяцев назад

It's the difference between failing forward and just plain failing. BG3 still has a lot of just plain failing, which also pisses me off. Meanwhile a game like Disco Elysium is just as dice heavy, but is all about failing forward and as a result I rarely had frustrations with failure in that game.

@Eron2828 10 месяцев назад

For me, the ultimate savescum experience comes from XCOM... You run your assault up to shotgun flank a sectoid, then miss a 97% chance shot. On the enemy turn a group patrols into your unexpecting squad because they see your out of position assault, the sectoid kills someone, and you're about to lose your best soldiers and, probably, the campaign... I'm not above forgetting that happened.

@zennim125 10 месяцев назад

save scumming is something that if a developer wanted they can design around and against it pathfinder kingmaker is an rpg that clearly wants you to suffer consequences for your actions, and to prevent save scumming to avoid the consequences the game puts said consequences on a delay. You only get to see the result of your choices many hours after making a decision that created a really nice narrative on my first playthrough where i had to bend backward to avoid some catastrophic fail states, it was fantastic and i love it, and the developers intended that, after all, they also put in ways to remedy such failstates

@shoopdelawoop 10 месяцев назад

One way to conceptualize the difference between approaches of reloading saves versus not is in the degree of control the player wants over the story. I generally keep two or three rolling saves at most in case of a bug or glitch, but I prefer the way that experience allows me to explore the story of each character through the random chance. Your approach of using reloads to adjust the story is better for a player that prefers a more authorial (or maybe editorial) role in the story with the ability not to simply act as their created character but to direct the events of the game. Maybe the best comparison is to an actor in an improvised role versus an actor-director who can address things that they don't feel work in a scene or overall narrative. After watching this, I'm curious how allowing myself to reload would change my experience with both this and other games, so I think I'll give that a try.

@CaptBighead 10 месяцев назад

I think that helped contextualize the issue I have with save-scumming in a narrative-heavy game like this: When you're taking on the actor-director role and 're-write' a scene, you're implicitly making assumptions about what the long term impacts of it are. So if someone who save-scums to have that control over the story has a character die and thinks after it happens: "I don't like how that character died too soon", they're implicitly assuming that said character death is just a net loss for the story. Disappointed that they couldn't see what was going to happen with that character, they reload. But what if the world at large reacts to that character's absence? What if the loss of that character leads to more interesting interactions with the world at large, and you've just deprived yourself of that? What if that character precludes a different, more interesting character from showing up? What if that character just sucks and didn't have that much story anyways? I don't think you have all the information you would need to unilaterally make those calls, especially in a game with as wide a scope as Baldur's Gate 3. Think of @WritingOnGames' comments about 'doing something daft' that became central to the story: they had no idea at the time that that was how the world would react. How could they know that the decisions they chose to do over weren't going to end up like that? For me, not knowing what the impacts would be, or how impactful they were in my first blind playthrough was 80% of the enjoyment for me. I'm *still* talking to others about the way my story went and how it was markedly different. Very early on in one of the acts of the game, I failed a scenario that completely changed the entire tone of the act. It meant that I basically had no town/friendly NPCs to interact with for the rest of my time in the region. That was brutal and definitely more stressful, and some could say "the unfun resolution to that encounter". But at the time, I couldn't know that (a) you absolutely can win that scenario and it completely changes everything, and (b) failing changed the tone of that sequence of the game into a horror story, and introduced a theme of my character's hubris meaning they failed to save people. Because of that, when later on I *did* manage to save a different group of people under much more dire circumstances, it gave my story a narrative satisfaction that I wouldn't have gotten if I had just reloaded, because at the time I thought "Well this feels bad and I want to tell the story of a hero". That kind of structure was a bit of a narrative accident; and to be fair to the concept of playing as the actor-director, while you don't know if the path down the road is going to be better than you guess, you also don't know if it's going to be as bad as you guessed either. But for the kind of player I am, I felt like there was almost an emergent aspect to the narrative, even (especially!) when things failed and made things 'less fun' in the moment.

@narashite 10 месяцев назад

Oh, this is probably gonna be controversial, but I'm also a savescummer bc I feel like if I'm not doing that I'm losing content 😢 idk

@QGfk1 10 месяцев назад

you're spot on, I think disco Elysium is the only game that really makes failed rolls feel equally (or more) interesting, and that's bc it's a game without combat or fail states. I think the only save scumming that actually cheapens the experience is reloading purely to cheese rolls, bc that undermines the point of a game governed by chance.

@SMJSmoK 10 месяцев назад

Yeah, I get you 100%. The game is clearly made for multiple playthroughs, but not everyone has the time to sit through 100+ hours in the same game again. So it makes sense that when you expect this to be your only playthrough, you want to see as much content as possible. And when some of the rolls go badly, it does lock you out of content, sometimes in pretty major ways.

@arenkai 10 месяцев назад

Most of the time I save scum when I'm not sure the game interprets stuff the same way I do and I believe it's going to lock me out of something I want to do. For example if I believe there should be a way for me to get out of a situation by picking a path or a dialogue option, and the game locks me out of that idea after I've picked the choice, I will reload and go with my first idea. What's mind blowing about Baldur's Gate 3 is that often, even when the game goes in a direction I didn't plan, I still go with the flow because the new opportunities are more interesting that what I had in mind at first. I think the biggest save scum that isn't of that category I did in the game up to now was reloading 2h of gameplay because I didn't realise I hadn't found all the moulds for the Adamantine Forge and the ones I had just found were better for my characters. So I reloaded the entire section to be sure to get the gear I wanted out of this unique questline.

@Stickweasel91 10 месяцев назад

The fact that you can save at virtually any moment, whether that be in the middle of combat or in a dialogue, tells me that the game was made with that in mind. You are encouraged to play the game in whatever way you want. Anyone arguing that your way of playing your games is wrong doesn't deserve even a moment of your consideration.

@zeroanonymity9736 10 месяцев назад

I feel like the only person in the world that is just completely smitten with this combat system. The little tweaks they made to DnD have made it so, SO much more fun to engage with! Pushing people over the edge of cliffs/out of windows, using spells to block stairways, funneling enemies into kill corridors, using special arrows and potions to make traps... It's all genuinely so much fun that I find myself bouncing from character to character just to experiment with builds!

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

exactly, i think the combat is absolutely amazing and probably ruined all other turn based games for me forever

@QGfk1 10 месяцев назад

I think a huge part of that, compared to the slog that other turn-based games can be (including their previous games, and the tabletop), is encounter design. there are fewer of the massive encounters with tons of npcs that last forever. these kind of games are at there best with fewer turns but each turn feels explosive and impactful. I think there's a fundamental difficulty in turn based video games that half of the encounter happens after it's clear you're going to win. in go or chess you're expected to surrender when you're in an unwinnable, but not technically checkmate, scenario, but video game enemies cant do that.

@zeroanonymity9736 10 месяцев назад

@@QGfk1 And when there ARE a ton of enemies they're usually a lower level than the main threats, dealing small bits of damage that can meaningly impact a fight over time without overshadowing the main threats. Lets you feel strong while punishing you for not dealing with those smaller threats if you ignore them.

@MiyaMam948 9 месяцев назад

How to Make Peace with the Idea of a Perfect Stranger Save Scumming: Step 1: Realize they also bought the game Step 2: Cope Optional Step 2B: Play your copy and worry less about other people in this finite life Congratulations, you are now happier!

@SalamanderLights 9 месяцев назад

I try to avoid save scumming for dice rolls, but I have no problem reloading if a dialog option doesn't feel like it fits the character I'm role playing. I don't think there's any issue with save scumming, though.

@SMJSmoK 10 месяцев назад

My problem is that I savescum a lot, realize that it's making my experience worse but I can't help it. I'm exactly the person from the GDC quote that some people cannot help themselves and approach games like an optimization puzzle and optimize the fun out of their playthrough. And I really enjoy when a game doesn't let me do that (Fromsoft games or rogue likes, for example), because the entire thing now feels much more genuine. I actually have to learn to play the game properly and can't just brute force my sub optimal apprach, overcoming challenges and subsequent achievements feel much more real because they're not just a result of F9-F9-F9...

@theandy2000 10 месяцев назад

The correct opinion.

@Crispman_777 10 месяцев назад

That's your decision though. You ruined it for yourself

@bevvvy1374 10 месяцев назад

@@Crispman_777 Congratulations you just repeated what he said lmao

@e2rqey 10 месяцев назад

@@bevvvy1374same. I completely get what you're saying. Its one of my only issues with BG3. I know it's my own fault but....

@NihongoWakannai 10 месяцев назад

@@Crispman_777 the point of games is to provide an experience that lets people easily fall into a certain mode of thinking witbout having to put much effort or work into it. That's what makes them feel fun instead of like working a job. Certain games are made for people with certain psychology who click well with them and can fall into that flow state.

@Spalfos 10 месяцев назад

I love the way Pikmin 4 reframed autosave as time travel to “allow” save scumming more. I wish bad dialogue rolls in BG3 could give more frequent interesting results like in Disco Elysium, but it makes sense that they can’t account for that given how massive the game is

@MrWhygodwhy 9 месяцев назад

For me personally, it is the difference between a game where I accept the dice rolls vs. a game where I want to tear my hair out whenever the dice comes up as failure. I loved Disco Elysium. BG3 drives me up a wall. For comparison, I also loved Divinity OS2 which was a lot less RNG but had similar consequences to BG3. Both DOS2 that and De are all time favorite games, but I don't think BG3 will be for me at all. Also, I have never been fond of the logic of critical hits or failures, particularily failures. If I am good at doing something, I shouldn't be failing 5%+ of the time doing it, it should be rare. If you stuck some dnd dice on me doing my job, I'd be fired before the end of the day. It's fuckin dumb.

@NwahlinsFlava 9 месяцев назад

I just subscribed. @ACG just highly recommended doing so, and that was enough for me. Kudos.

@ivorytorea 10 месяцев назад

I personally would kind of have loved to not savescum my first playthrough, but it is a game, not a tabletop experience. The distinction is manifold but most of all: It is not me who makes up the dialogue, I choose from how other people wrote those options. I am not sure if I really will do what I think I do with a choice. Not just that it can turn out unexpectedly but sometimes I am not even sure if I am working in the right direction if it is not a diceroll option that outright tells me what I am trying to do [Persuasion] This is a good argument. But also because I am not really sure how much roleplaying I can really do in BG3. Quite frankly, as much as failures are sometimes needed, the uncertainty is a possibility and inspiration was added exactly to play into having second chances. But if I make up a strength/charm character and my character wildly flails from "I am literally hulk" to "I am not sure if I can lift my own limbs" within literally one dialogue, with advantage/proficiency/guidance rolls (especially since I can´t see difficulty of rolls beforehand) then I feel a dissonance with what character I created and what is playing out. A DM would obviously be able to do the same thing but then I kinda wouldn´t sit at the table with them, if my 18 strength - all of the above - character can not clear a 5 skillcheck once, that´s ok. If my character can continuously fail mundane checks then honestly that´s just not good. The DM doesn´t have to wave me through either, but more often than not there would be a leniency to let me try again because it is more unrealistic to swing giant swords into a monsters hide and cut through their limbs, only to fail at pulling a knife from a rib, more often than not I would not even get checked on that in the first place because my character is supposed to be able to do that. But obviously the game asks whether or not I have a strength based character in my party and if I am using it for the appropriate skillcheck and then I still fail...meh. And the other reason is obviously bugs. If I am forced to make a check because no other way is gonna get me forward and I rotate through all my characters in my party and camp to clear it, I am obviously not gonna sit there: "whelp thats that then"

@zacharywong483 9 месяцев назад

Super great script and points here, as always! Fantastic video!

@mammon_is_god 9 месяцев назад

The player in my says "absolutely right." The DM in me says *The Audacity*

@michiganjack1337 10 месяцев назад

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Save scum all you like however don't get drunk and decide you're going to clean up your save files. Say no to drunk data management.

@AdrianVM19 10 месяцев назад

Public service announcement: don't trust any decisions you make when drunk. Or better yet, avoid getting drunk in the first place. If you're making important mistakes you wouldn't have made while sober, you definitely got too drunk and should reevaluate your choices.

@theclawyaww3740 10 месяцев назад

With these kinda games I only save scum after I have played it a bunch of times to experiment and get specific outcomes. But the first couple of playthroughs I just "trust the dice" like Larian said.

@ohamatchhams 10 месяцев назад

Based video Save scumming in Western RPG is always feels good to utilises and increases both of your productivity and ergonomics if you don't want to be bothered with all of the fluffing process or busy enough to learn all the nooks and crannies later (also showcases the developers' dedications to it's systems' complexity and preventing potential softlock bs by any potentials of game-breaking bugs) I rather have save scum options than whatever happening in Diablo 4 gameplay loop and it's even worse monetisation to those trying to be detractors from said features

@theandy2000 10 месяцев назад

This is about as anti-based as you can get. I’d have to imagine every dev of BG3 would cringe their way through somebody missing the point of the game with its RNG. Negatively based.

@mildlydisastrous7818 10 месяцев назад

Not doing an Ironman run doesn’t equal save scumming. These are the two poles, and there are myriads of ways of using saves in between.

@SciontheDark 9 месяцев назад

It isnt about reloading saves if your combat rolls dont go your way and the game ends because of your death, it's about reloading saves endlessly to try get a barbarian to lockpick a 20dc door.

@MrWhygodwhy 9 месяцев назад

Yeah save scumming to me is specifically about breaking the balance that the odds provide. Odds are never truly 'balanced' so many people will quick save their way thru things that feel unbalanced as a result of the RNG. Some people stick with it all, though I don't know how that doesn't necessarily lead to occasional party wipes. My MO is that I just simply try to do the combat encounters in one go without saving in the middle of them. My only exceptions are if I have basically finished a combat and all that is left to do is finish off the enemy. (Sorry, I don't want that shit getting prolonged or going tits up on RNG after getting that far.) Sometimes this means failing and redo-ing the full encounter, but at that point I am probably thinking I should leave and come back later anyway. (usually if I try to take on foes a couple levels higher than me).

@sParrOwGaming513 9 месяцев назад

It is pretty simple. Save is just another tool that is available for you in the game. You are free to do whatever you want with it. It is up to the player to decide whether they enjoy it or not. Nobody should try to force their experience and ideas on others and make them feel ashamed of their choice to play a game. Period.

@zipiol. 10 месяцев назад

it's not save scumming, it's exploring all the possibilities ;)

@DaleWrecker 10 месяцев назад

That would involve also progressing with the "fail state" to its development though.

@Jediahgames 10 месяцев назад

Instead of "don't savescum" I'd say "seriously consider not savescumming as much as possible". Yes, people CAN do it as much as they want, but that doesn't take away the fact that it may spoil people's experience. Optimizing the fun out of the game and all that.

@Crispman_777 10 месяцев назад

I just like seeing all the different ways to do things

@anumbah9large936 10 месяцев назад

I remember starting out with fallout 1 when I discovered that I could quicksave before and after each shot to ensure I never missed the enemy’s eyes and it got to the point of quickloading hundreds of times for each encounter. Obviously I’m a pretty maniacal save scummer myself but I totally get the argument that it is more engaging and fun to continue your playthrough after undesirable outcomes and wrong choices. I’m kinda OCD and rarely manage it but your character not knowing the best strategy or outcome the first time around just like you didn’t makes for a more immersive time.

@DeadFishTheKing 10 месяцев назад

I do enjoy the combat in BG3 a lot, and the tactical flexibility makes it a lot of fun to try different approaches and minimise the level of damage I'm taking. (personally in my story I feel it's unsatisfying for half my party to be bleeding on the ground at the end of every encounter) But I have found that a lot of the combat encounters have lead me to place my characters at specific spots in the room and buffing their weapons; which when those characters don't even know there's about to be combat feels thematically bad. But if I don't do that, and talk to the NPC with them all bunched up; if one particular enemy gets a high initiative roll and casts Fear on all of them they're halfway across the room and have dropped their weapons before they've even had a turn which just feels frustrating I love this game, and the flaws it has are flaws of DnD as well, but boy trying to play without save scumming does not appeal to me at all

@MrWhygodwhy 9 месяцев назад

Honestly, even with save scumming as it takes awhile to load. I liked Divinity OS2's system for combat so much more. It actually felt strategic. This feels like combat just goes whatever direction the dice go, sometimes combat is piss easy even though you went up against unfavorable odds, sometimes the dice have two party members die before combat even starts. Not really my idea of fun.

@animegx45 9 месяцев назад

Then there's also the encounters where the boss is either over leveled or there's 10 additional guys trying to attack you at once. As of this comment, I'm trying to fight Nere.

@erikwiley586 9 месяцев назад

I think it takes away from the randomness and the true d&d experience. Everyone can do what they want, but I like the randomness. I also plan on playing multiple playthroughs

@anonymous6705 10 месяцев назад

Even the idea that save-scumming makes action games too easy isn't necessarily true. I've been playing Hrot on hard, and if you quicksave at the wrong moment, your run on the level is BRICKED as enemies 1-hit kill you the second you reload.

@NerdSyncProductions 9 месяцев назад

Great video! There's a common joke that goes something like "playing D&D by yourself is just author with more steps." And I think that can apply to games like this. Like you said, you're not always looking for the easiest way through the game. Sometimes you want the most interesting or dramatic way through, whether that means a triumphant victory, a tragic loss, or simply a fun exchange. Save scumming can let people author a story that is meaningful to them.

@Kazrel 10 месяцев назад

People should just play the way they want.

@marinebymistake 10 месяцев назад

You just have to roleplay as a time traveler, it's not save scumming

@octosalias5785 9 месяцев назад

I dont mind taking a failed roll but its rough when you have to backtrack a save and get those rolls again because youre excited about the way things went down the first time

@cogginsnuff 10 месяцев назад

I think the interesting question is how can a game like this design itself to disincentivize save scumming. In irl D&D thats thw role of the DM so how do you mahbe buff dice rolls for new characters so they dont die before you meet them without bending or breaking the game or something.

@sarkaztik3228 10 месяцев назад

Why does the game have to have incentives to not save scum when people playing the game are fully grown adults (usually) who should have even a basic level of self control?

@cogginsnuff 10 месяцев назад

@@sarkaztik3228 Oh sorry if I made you think I thought the game had to have that, not what I meant at all. I just think it's a more interesting question to ask and think about if that's a game someone wanted to make. Great video but like tl;dr it's a video game, do whatever you like as long as it doesn't fuck with anyone else's game. I was just trying to expand on the ideas the video brought up. Hope that makes sense. It's also nothing to do with self-control. by all means make your own decisions but in a game you can only do whatever it let's you do, that's I think the fundamental principal of what game design is. So like this game let's you save-scum, that's their solution so I was just proposing and alternative solution/brainstorm. Feel free to jump in if you have any ideas!

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

@@sarkaztik3228its about the intent of the developers. dark souls (an overused example, i know) doesnt have quicksaving a loading because the game wants you to play it the way *the developers* want you to play it (for example, when you throw a firebomb, that bomb is now gone forever), while larian is fine giving players a big toolbox (for example quicksaving during dialogues and mid turns) and trusts that everyone will play in a way thats most enjoyable to them. its why i find games like dark souls (and most of its community) so frustrating. its not about an easy mode or about save scumming, its about having options. like you said, we're adults that can make our own decisions on how the game would be most enjoyable for us

@EnderBlood 10 месяцев назад

@@sarkaztik3228 Contrary to popular belief, "fully grown adults who have a basic level of self control" do not necessarily make decisions that end up being the best for themselves, and that includes finding the way to have the most fun while playing a game. Of course, everyone is different, so that might not apply to you. But I find it weird how so many players are hostile to the very idea that maybe you don't yet know all the best ways to have fun and that a game designer, someone whose job is to make you have fun, could try to incentivize you to play in a new way, that you didn't consider, and that could be more fun for you maybe. All games put restrictions on your freedom, else they aren't games. Some of those restrictions are just more strict and/or more visible than others. They are all attempting to guide you towards playing the game a certain way, one that the designers think will be fun for you. And most of the time they're right. Of course, play however you like. But let game designers design games, and maybe sometimes try to follow their suggestions, you never know, it could be fun. (Just in case this wasn't clear: I am absolutely not shaming anyone for playing the game how they like it, just suggesting that other ways of playing could be fun for you.)

@Overcrox 10 месяцев назад

The biggest difference with failure in BG3 and failure in a D&D campaign is that in BG3, you get a game over screen, or an NPC dies, or you miss out on game content with no real notion of what could have been, but in D&D you can revive an NPC outside your party, you can go on a quest to revive a downed party member you can't resurrect without help, you can find an alternative solution. As many options as BG3 included, a video game will always be finite, whereas a TTRPG allows the players and the DM to imagine a solution to an unexpected outcome. I love BG3, but without a DM to steer the story in a more compelling or forgiving direction, the only outcome to letting a brutal failure of the dice stand is to sit through a downward spiral. Save scumming just reduces the amount of time wasted on meaningless failure.

@DaleWrecker 10 месяцев назад

Imagine a future where you can play D&D but the DM creates a game like BG in real time, instead of theater of the mind or classic grid maps with tokens and minis.

@Overcrox 10 месяцев назад

That level of visual aid would be incredible. Honestly wouldn’t be out of the question to make a “game”/tool that works that way. A character creator for player models with modeled items, various monster models, programmed spell and action lists, movement and attack animations, and various pieces of level geometry or level creation tools. Just like minis and sets but with a BG3 version of a Super Mario Maker.

@EnderBlood 10 месяцев назад

It's interesting watching this video after watching Ratatoskr's video on the same subject. Initially one would think they contradict each other, but I don't think that's the case. This video is saying "I save scum because that's how I want to play and that's one way to get fun out of the game that works for me". Ratatoskr's video is saying "By save scumming, some people might get less fun out of the game for themselves, even if they don't realize it, and even when they do realize it, they sometimes can't help themselves". I think both points are complementary and should be emphasized in different scenarios. One is a simple statement that you shouldn't be shamed for finding your own way to have fun with a game, the other is a simple suggestion to try playing a different way, you never know what might happen.

@lafayettefrancois178 10 месяцев назад

Saw the title and immediately heard a choir 2000 strong singing hallelujah

@fhjunior6183 9 месяцев назад

Thanks for the vid

@TheGoateeGuys 3 месяца назад

I played tactical mode. I save scammed a lot. It did help get through difficult parts (IE literally making sure I got every hit on Raphael on the the first turn of my two fighters 12 hit combo that took 20 minutes to get %100 hits) but after I beat the game, I didn't feel like I truly embrace what DnD was all about. I didn't truly use the base mechanics to my advantage. Basically, I got the achievement on steam but felt no satisfaction of earning it. I might as well have played on explorer mode to save time. I don't blame people for save scumming on their first few runs of the game, but I can't help but feel that I didn't really beat the game as I just erased every dice roll mistake I made. RNG is difficult to accept for everyone. But the true challenge in the game is doing what you can to stack the the odds in your favor. Save scumming makes that easy. I don't think that's bad if you ONLY save scum though. You do you. Play how you want. But I can't deny that save scumming keeps you from outsmarting the game which I personally I hope to achieve. One day...

@Rave.- 10 месяцев назад

This video makes an interesting counterpoint to Ratatoskr's take on save scumming. Ultimately, I agree with Rata more, for similar reasons to how using the glitches too much in TotK killed the enjoyment. But I'm glad to have your perspective.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

would you mind giving a tldr on what his take is? im assuming its at least a little bit more nuanced than the 'save scum bad' mentality prevailing on twitter

@EnderBlood 10 месяцев назад

@@_holy__ghost He is saying that while people are fully allowed to play the game however they want, it may not actually be the most fun *for them*. He's basically suggesting that you should try playing without save scumming and not dismiss that idea outright, because it could give you a more fun experience even if you don't realize it yet. He particularly emphasizes the idea that the player is not always the best judge of what gameplay decisions will bring them the most fun, giving an example of some players using duplication gliches in TotK and then lamenting that they ruined the game for themselves. (As an aside, while many players are very hostile to that idea, I believe most game designers know that to be a fact and that many players will find an optimal way to play even if it is ultimately less fun for them.) I don't actually think the two videos are counterpoints to eachother, the viewpoints are compatible IMO.

@Rave.- 10 месяцев назад

@@EnderBlood thanks for elaborating for the other commenter. That's entirely accurate. As a min/maxer, if I CAN optimize the fun out of a game, I probably will, subconsciously or otherwise. Might be consequence of growing up with a WoW community. But yea I don't think you're wrong. In certain aspects, Writing's take on this is *almost* entirely separate, and I enjoy his focus on the storytelling aspect. At the same time, some others have pointed out that this is what they might not even call save scumming, or perhaps is a much more grey area for save scumming. I believe the possibility of ruining your own storytelling unintentionally with this method still exists, and so in at least that regard, I think Rata *may* still serve as a counterpoint.

@EnderBlood 10 месяцев назад

@@Rave.- I guess what I meant is that this video is about not being shamed and playing however you like, while Rata's video is providing nuance on the "playing however you like" part, without shaming. Ultimately if you found a good way to have fun with a game, just go for it. It is a good thing that you do this, and way better than not playing the game at all. Just be aware that it is not automatically gonna be the most fun for you simply because you decided so, and that there are maybe other ways that you didn't consider. But obviously, even if that were the case, you are under no obligation to make an effort to find these other ways, and you can absolutely just go and have fun.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

@@EnderBlood thanks for the run-down. while i vaguely agree with his take, i think its incredibly narrow and unnecessary for the vast majority of players. i just dont feel like that many people are 'dumb' enough to ruin their own experience. hell, a lot of people are fine with save scumming but are straight up too lazy to do it and just let things move on. theres also people (myself included) for whom mix/maxing your outcomes IS the fun. then theres people like Writing who prefer rigid storytelling aspect over things like immersion or letting things happen naturally. i feel like everyone will know whether or not they want to save scum within a couple hours of gameplay. if they dont, i think that's just completely on them. not to be rude to anyone, but if you're an adult person and you cant chill out for a bit with the optimisation of your gameplay (to the point where you're actively ruining your own experience), its on you. i love the save system larian put in. im sad to hear some people are ruining their own experiences by using it badly, but its hardly the systems fault and it shouldnt lead to demonising loading saves more than it already is.

@LucidVisions 9 месяцев назад

The idea of having the story happen to you vs curating the story you want is an interesting one. I find the first way more immersive and is the way I personally enjoy these games but I’d absolutely tailor the narrative on a 2nd play though to see what I missed.

@WritingOnGames 9 месяцев назад

Totally fair. I actually think I'm going to do that but the other way around-second playthrough I'll just go with whatever the combat and dice rolls throw at me.

@LucidVisions 7 месяцев назад

@@WritingOnGames yeah, it's preference I suppose for me going in blind 1st time is completly fresh. If you decide to let the tide take you on a 2nd playthough much of that initial suprise is ruined and you can't get that back, I would argue you can't get fully immersed when you know what's coming. I think letting the game take you exemplifies the interactive medium but you can also curate, it's almost like do you want the story to happen to you or create it I suppose in your case both. Then you have a qusetion of which playthough is YOUR cannon. I like the first to be cannon then the rest feels like peaking behind the curtain at what I missed.

@vikareus1257 10 месяцев назад

If you sense that there is a fight where it might end with a total party kill (which is a lot), there’s no shame in save scumming. Otherwise, I would do my best to read dialogue options/checks carefully and decide which one to pick or reroll.

@Maidenless007 10 месяцев назад

I'm currently mad at BG3 for permanently deleting my owlbear cub from my camp due to a bug with killing the goblin leaders so I'm taking a long break, but when I inevitably return, I'll be living my best save scum life.

@Makoto03 10 месяцев назад

Great video. I personally don't understand why people get upset over this or how others choose to play a game. I save and reload alot in games. No shame at all. I'm looking forward to finally playing Baldur's Gate 3 next week when it arrives on PS5.

@opethmike 10 месяцев назад

This. People get insanely worked up about how other people play games.

@Stolanis 10 месяцев назад

I think a lot of the time when people compain about 'casuals' playing single-player games how they want, what they're really saying is 'I forced myself to suffer by playing in a really frustrating and unfun way and I want others to do the same so I feel justified about it'. I watch a few speed and challenge runners (channels like Skurry, LilAggy and The Backlogs) and they're all chill dudes, so clearly playing games at a high level doesn't automatically correlate with being an arrogant douchemonger.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

exactly. if larian didnt want you to play however you like, they wouldnt have let you quicksave during literal dialogue

@jamesvonderhaar2553 10 месяцев назад

Group A: “Hey, maybe it would be more fun if people played game in way X?” Group B: “How dare you judge me for playing in way Y!?”

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

@@jamesvonderhaar2553 we are adults. we dont need other people to 'suggest' how we should play. this shouldnt even be a discussion

@aslandus 10 месяцев назад

To be fair, if you think dying in combat is too punishing and takes away from the story, that kind of suggests that there's a flaw in the game's design in regards to lethality, and that save scumming is basically acting as a band-aid to cover that up that problem. I had a similar issue with Divinity Original Sin 2, which was made by the same developers, where the only mechanism to revive a character who falls in combat is a semi-rare magic item. Given how combat-focused the game is, then, some of the fun gets sucked out because death is so costly that it forces the player into a sort of ludonarrative dissonance where most of your party members are meant to be badasses who live on the knife's edge, but you as a player are constantly trying to keep them out of trouble and are approaching combat like a chessmaster trying to pick out the method to get through the fight that won't result in any of your friends getting turned into hamburger meat... Which, you know, kind of takes you out of your character's head and makes it harder to get into the roleplay aspects of the roleplaying game...

@KhaosKontroller 9 месяцев назад

I will save scum till the day I die...and then reload a save to undo my death.

@BitLyrist 9 месяцев назад

I’ve only used the term ‘save scum’ to describe abusing a save system not as intended to avoid interacting with a game system as intended, where BG3 uses a save system as intended to interact with game systems as intended….. so this whole conversation is weird to me

@ardentdfender4116 10 месяцев назад

Just play the game you bought with your own money however you want and have as much fun possibly playing it. Just max out you save and auto save options to 50 in the options settings menu vs the default.

@drawvidraw1406 10 месяцев назад

I don't get your point. I don't think you can even continue the game if your main character is dead. But there are revive scrolls and multiple spells to bring characters back (even a orb appears to do this on if they fall off a cliff) - and these aren't hard to find. I thought 'save scumming' is reloading when a dialogue option doesn't go your way or a dice roll is 'bad' in combat. Not just a party member dies (never permanent)

@amiravital5714 5 месяцев назад

Here's the thing. You can say integrity all you want but when I'm playing the first time I want to experience the game using my own choices. Which means yeah I will save scum if I want to romance Shadowheart bc why the hell does it require perception check

@FernoHellbringer 5 месяцев назад

Those who save scum want to play the game their own way. I enjoy playing this game this way, way more than what I would normally and since I'm not ruining anybody else's playthrough I see no harm in it.

@AdrianVM19 10 месяцев назад

I... don't really know what to make of your take on this. On the one hand, I agree with the message that "save scumming" can be an absolutely acceptable and even ideal way to play such a narrative-heavy game. Hell, even DnD will tell you to bend, break, or ignore the rules if it makes you and your party have more fun. But then, on the other hand, I fundamentally disagree with some other parts of your argument. And I DO agree with your take on it being YOUR game to play as you wish. Death in this game is so inconsequential, I really can't fathom how I would ever justify save scumming because a character died. Sure, maybe during the first level or so of play, if you make EGREGIOUS mistakes, you might die due to bad luck. But then you're also at the learning stage, and I see no difference there between reloading after one character dies, or after the whole party dies (and you're forced to reload), just because failure in the early levels can be so costly. Later, I see it a little bit differently. I find it more engaging when you barely survive a combat after a character unexpectedly dies, than when you reload and try again due to bad dice luck. You can always buy more Revivify scrolls, and you can always save a Level 3 spell slot on a Cleric for an emergency revive. You even have an NPC who will revive your characters if you have no other options. So accept character deaths, because in this game specifically a death is ABSOLUTELY not the end AT ALL. I also feel like this is a game where some optimization is required if you wanna have a good time. Failure can be funny in tabletop RPGs, and a bumbling idiot of a character can be played for comedic, or even narratively satisfying purposes. But this is a tactics videogame, and missing an attack is generally more frustrating than it is funny. So you kinda have to optimize and plan out your fights intelligently. Even small things like using the combat overview (the O key in your keyboard) and properly moving the camera around to understand the layout of the battlefield and plan accordingly are core elements of the gameplay which can turn the tides of a battle. And even when you plan accordingly, things might still go wrong, and having to think of a new plan on the spot is absolutely part of the fun and the appeal. All in all, I think save scumming can be great, and I agree that it's up to each player to decide how and when it's acceptable (as long as it doesn't affect other people). But I think part of DnD, and RPG play in general, is accepting failure and using it to move the story forward. Save scumming in a game is like when a GM fudges a roll to better suit the story: It can be VERY helpful when the story would SUCK due to a shitty roll, but it also feels cheap and removes any stakes when overused. Failure is a critical part of any story. Even when "failing" means that the story isn't going where you thought it would, it can eventually drive you to succeed in ways you never imagined you could.

@MazLad 10 месяцев назад

Yeah fair enough I say. Some of the consequences especially late game are not well telegraphed. I've stuck with my original plan to not reload saves and I've still enjoyed it for a different reason, it gives me that replayability for new playthroughs. This accidently turned in to my 'incompetent idiot' playthrough, but it's been a weird mix of interesting, amusing and infuriating! I get what you're saying about tell the story you want to, and I will... just likely on my next playthrough.

@tonybustamante9942 10 месяцев назад

It's very weird when people get upset about the way other people choose to play the game they purchased.

@zip2kx 10 месяцев назад

trusting the dice creates great fun (also in hitman for instancce the best experiences are in freelancer where you cant save scum). but there are times its bullshit where a perception check doesnt trigger and you miss something. or even worse you wonder around a room looking for a stupid button that wont show and you can clearly see there's something else on the map. at that point its not the fun of dice rolls, its frustration.

@THE_MOONMAN 6 месяцев назад

I think peoples issue with save scumming is that to them youre choosing to not interact with certain challenges at the cost of replayability. I think theres definitely a line somewhere but its subjective and different for everyone. So personally i encourage it, if it is ocer something vital, like in the example you brought up, losing a whole character. That sucks ass and i dont think everyone should have to stick with thsoe consequences. Although i do think that it is a bigger difficulty modifier than anything else. If you save scum once in a while for important stuff, youre essentially playing on easy. And if you donit constantly to optimize every encounter youre pkaying on very easy. Especially for something like baldurs gate where odds are essential to the very mechanics. So to the hardcore player theyre justified in looking down on it tbh. And i dont think thatd domething we shoukd be invalidating. But also not everyone has that much time to play games. Like you shouldn't feel bad for playing on easy if youre someone that like works a lot to provide for themself or their family and doesnt have all that nuch time to be like doing multiple playthroughs of a game. And i dont think they should be invalidated from playing in a way that is optimal for them to experience all of the games content. If you only have the time to play it once than of course you're gonna wanna do and get all the things and the stuff. So its just different ways of enjoying games and hopefully the two types of players can respect eachother. Especially cause usually people are transitioning from casual to hardcore all the time too, like with different games. One person might play a game casually cause theyre already playing another game competitively and might just be playing a different genre to unwind. So peoples argumanoare valid but suing them to shame is ridiculous

@dingus2k 9 месяцев назад

I have save scummied my away around the entire first act. I hold zero regrets. My behavior will never change.

@Kris-wo4pj 10 месяцев назад

I save scum in real dnd when i dm. Its more fun. And yes only the players get it not me. I just have to find something more to throw at them. Also i dont save enough in this game. I only manual save when im done. Ive redid the game tutorial repeatedly cuz i kept messing up a part of act 1. I usually weigh im i wiling to load back to my last autosave an hr ago.

@TheRustyLampPost 10 месяцев назад

CRPG’s universally have issues of extremely tedious and boring combat encounters IF the player has no idea they are coming. Devs should focus on having a way for players to have at least a little intel before approaching an encounter. Otherwise you walk into battles clumped as a group that all get feared in one roll and enemies have loads of traps set up. It’s genuinely infuriating.

@zeedar412 10 месяцев назад

Hamish, there are resurrection scrolls. Death is not the end.

@brunobb1 10 месяцев назад

Ngl I had to save scum to beat the Nere boss fight. I locked myself out of asking for reinforcements (at the time I thought he might join my party as a valuable asset) and after seeimg him killing the gnomes I attacked him, but without the reinforcements my characters would just die after 5 minutes because of how many minions he had. Oh well, I genuinely thought it necessary, I tried optimizing my builds, buying new weapons, armor, amulets, and nothing... In another RPG I would do it without even thinking about it, but it seems the D&D community is very against doing this lol Too bad.

@Uhcip 10 месяцев назад

Playing with other people we decided saves were only for glitches or obviously lost battles. Going back on dialogue choices seemed like, why even play DnD at that point.

@ruolbu 10 месяцев назад

One major difference between tabletop experiences and single player video game experiences is content. A video game has a set amount of content. Unless you plan to play the game many times, you will not experience all of it. I think it's common that people go for a single playthrough and just accept that as the amount of content they experience. It makes sense to me, to make that single experience as customized as I want. Wanting to see that one quest line come to fruition I've been working towards for 10 hours, knowing full well that it exists, that there is some big payoff I could experience that's build into this game, it makes sense to me, to just force it to happen. In a tabletop rpg there often is no content until a couple days before you play. There is no set end point, there is no expected path, there is nothing to miss out on. There is potential, but that potential points in every direction equally. The dynamic ability of the human mind to generate a meaningful story out of any dice roll simply is not present in a video game, but a tabletop can generate your big payoff at any time. So it makes sense that save scumming in that setting is not a big thing. People are often just satisfied with what happens, even if the outcome was not what they had hoped for.

@dunkelwelpling 10 месяцев назад

Nah man, i used to save scum because of my perfectionism, but it ruined the game for me. Sometimes it's better to accept things how they are and deal with it - it's a powerful life lesson really. I was really glad that in Hitman 2 on hard mode, you would be granted only one save and this for me felt so liberating, even tho it took freedom away, that i cannot imagine playing Hitman any other way.

@Crispman_777 10 месяцев назад

That's your decision though. You ruined it for yourself

@TotalNigelFargothDeath 10 месяцев назад

@@Crispman_777 Yeah, most criticism of freedom in games boils down to "I can't control my impulses, thus, game bad". Like all the bitching about "meta" and "dominant strategies", just play the game in an enjoyable manner, sheesh.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

i save scum because of immersion. if my 7 foot tall barbarian half-orc with 18 strenght and proficiency in strenght checks rolls a nat 1, thats immersion breaking for me. it makes no sense that i shouldnt be able to break down a door when i can literally bench 600 pounds. likewise, ill save when i *pass* checks i shouldnt. if i accidentally roll a nat 20 on a persuasion check i really shouldnt've passed, ill save scum that to make sure i fail. it has nothing to do with min-maxing the game. its about playing how you want and i want to be immersed.

@keinname1896 10 месяцев назад

I am honest, if I wouldn't been able to save scum, I probably wouldn't play it. And the most important factor for me is time. I toeing the 20 hour mark in BG3 and I'm 100% sure that I will probably make another playthrough of the game when I get my pension, if I don't bite the dust before that. I just want to see most of what the game has to offer before that and therefore I'm checking out all of my options before making the call that seems most fitting for the story of my character, Game have gotten way to big for me, same with Elden Ring, which I loved, but I've still uninstalled it after one playthrough in which I've done as much as possible. Love the days of the shadowrun games or Age of Decadence where a playthrough is 10-15 hours but with much verticality, so another playthrough is not only attractive but also affordable.

@labdG 10 месяцев назад

I'm sure there are people who would complain about save scumming but I have honestly not seen that at all. All I've seen is just fun discussions about it and people figuring out how and when they themselves want to do it and why. Like how people can talk about what class they prefer to play in an RPG. And yeah, like this video. :)

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

you must not be on twitter then (sorry, 'x'). people over there are absolutely manic about the fact that people play an offline single player game the way they want to play it

@labdG 10 месяцев назад

@@_holy__ghost Yeah. I think I manage to avoid alot of negativity online.

@SMJSmoK 10 месяцев назад

@@_holy__ghost A more important question would be: Why does anyone give a sh*t about what people on twitter say? Twitter is known for being a cesspool of the internet and best avoided.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

@@SMJSmoK sometimes the twitter shit overflows spills into other forums and youtube videos and becomes a massive topic that everyone expects you to pick a side on

@Dj-621 10 месяцев назад

If I didn't save scum, literally, all of the village in the second chapter would be dead. D*** demons killed that girl d*** near immediately.

@_Kinozo 10 месяцев назад

Most people aren't saying you have to play the game without save scumming, yes you can play however you want, but savescumming (for some people) will make the experience worse overall. The point of the discourse is to try and have people play without thinking "maybe i could have gotten a better reward if i did x" and accept the consequences of your action. To try and roleplay more than meta game

@DamnZodiak 9 месяцев назад

Many people seem to forget that having a GM means that the game is at all times run and controlled by a person whose goal is for your specific group to have an enjoyable experience. A good GM can be trusted to make the failures as fun, if not more so, than the successes. A prepackaged video game simply cannot provide that, so why would I not use all the tools available to improve my personal experience?

@wormerine8029 9 месяцев назад

I am not sure if you talk about savescumming here. I generally refer to savescumming, as abusing save/reload system to bypass decision making and consequences of character builds. So if you play RNG based game like XCOM or BG3, and instead of using tools available to you to win, and instead just use save/reload until dices are in your favour, than you savescum. If you build a character who has little to no chances to pass certain checks, and you still use save/reload until pass those checks, than you save scum. While everyone is free to enjoy the game the way they want, I see those as negatives as they bypass fun of the game - learning the combat system or seeing reactivity to player’s choices. That said I am not a fan of flat d20 roll - it is too RNG based, and especially early on players skill proficiency contributes very little to checks. For computer games I much prefer flat skill thresholds (Obsidian likes to use those) of bell curve RNG (double dice roll of Disco Elysium) - the first removes RNG all together, while the latter makes RNG less extreme - most rolls will be mid, so extreme failures and successes are much rarer. On top of that, because numbers rolled are more unified, flat bonuses contribute more to our chances to pass, than in flat d20 - where our proficiency has always a high chance to be overwritten by a poor roll. That said, I found it very easy in BG3 to stack odds heavily in my favour. In combat most hits land, and at least playing as a bard, I found it rather difficult to loose a check. One or two I struggled with, I was able to power through using game’s inspiration system.

@CelestiaLily 10 месяцев назад

(Only watched playthroughs so ymmv) I'm interested in the ways games can invite the meta-conversation around reloading *into* their own narratives... Toriel's fight in Undertale was deliberately designed to be obtuse (for several turns it looks like she's unresponsive to your mercy actions), shockingly unforeseeable (you whittle down her health & the last attack unfairly does WAY more damage than it should), and meaningful (Flowey's taunts are meant to unsettle the player for their actions, but it motivates you towards approaching future encounters with a different mindset if you truly take the game's message to heart). On the opposite end, I remember seeing a comment on Disco Elysium by a person who started off thinking "this game portrays drug addiction kinda odd; nothing I take has real mechanical penalty, and the benefits are amazing for the murder investigation". Later on, they realized *they'd grown accustomed* to the pattern of save-scumming and running off to take a hit during every ability check; purely to maximize the benefits of whatever drug they'd spent money on in order to succeed at these checks. Turns out that habitual reloading was a _pretty damn good way_ of portraying drug reliance in a character too nervous to continue their investigation without anything to help back them up.

@fernandozavaletabustos205 10 месяцев назад

Is this a video response on Ratatoskr's video about Save Scumming?

@WritingOnGames 10 месяцев назад

Nope! Haven't seen it.

@fernandozavaletabustos205 10 месяцев назад

Oh, I see. Thank you for answering.@@WritingOnGames

@fishswat1 10 месяцев назад

Regarding the comment on save scumming, I think this depends entirely on what kind of experience you wanna have but the negative connotation is imo, more so referring to loading a previous save every single time whenever something doesn't go your way, to cheese the RNG system into winning a very difficult skill check that you're otherwise very unlikely to pass. For example, if you come across a DC 99 skill check, then you more or less have to rely on a 1/20 chance of rolling a critical success, which guarantees a success no matter how high the DC is. If you repeatedly reload an earlier save though, you'll eventually get it and thus, trivializing both the journey of finding an alternative solution, and also trivializes the surprised joy of succeeding the unlikely roll in one try. In a situation like this, most players are not meant to pass the skill check unless if you got super lucky, but if you "save scum" then you can pretty much guarantee yourself a pass eventually. To me, the beauty of using a dice roll system to determine skill check outcome is that, nothing is ever guaranteed. There's no guaranteed success nor guaranteed failure due to critical success/failures when rolling a nat 20 or nat 1 respectively. This adds a layer of uncertainty as opposed to systems like, say Dos2, where you just KNOW you'll succeed a dialogue check if you have high enough stats. On top of that, sufficient understanding of the system means that you can use your skills/items/character builds to stack bonuses to greatly improve the chance of success, and that to me is part of the fun as well. When it does fail, there is a lot of interesting adaptive roleplay opportunities to be had. Just like in real life, we can't expect everything to go our way and often have to improvise. This kind of improvisation is, imo, quite well captured when you get an unlucky dice roll and now forced to live with or work around the consequences. (That's not to say I don't save scum entirely. If the dialogue dice roll failure resulted in a game over then I'd have no choice but to reload lol. Or if a companion I'm keen on keeping alive ended up dying, I'd also do a reload as that would be a crucial part of the playthrough. I just try to keep save scumming to a minimum, and sometimes, this results in some unexpected outcomes that leave me pleasantly surprised.)

@MomirsLabTech 10 месяцев назад

Players should play the game they purchased however makes them enjoy it the most, and ignore any type of gatekeeping done on the internet by people who presumably smell worse than a dumpster on a hot sunny day.

@Jaeno311 10 месяцев назад

You really should do it

@thecursed01 9 месяцев назад

they are all about telling you the game will go on with failed saves. so many death situations if you fail. am at the moment when orin kills my teammate unless i pass a 25 persuasion..f. that. it's either save scumming or giving the finger to whoever designed that ooh so dramatic moment and order artillery strikes on orin before triggering that sequence.

@e2rqey 10 месяцев назад

I just wish the game loaded faster tbh. Even on a high end PC with the game on a very fast SSD it still takes just long enough to be annoying

@Cube2000 10 месяцев назад

I remember playing Fire Emblem on the GBA thinking “This would be so much better if I didn’t have to keep worrying about losing my units to bullshit all the time”. Then I played Fire Emblem Awakening sometime later, which introduced that causal option that turns off perma-death, and remembered enjoying my time a hell of a lot more. I know that there is probably a bit more weight to some of the interactions between characters IF there is that threat of perma-death…but eh, I got shit to do and would like to progress through the main story without having to figure out the perfect strategy that keeps everyone alive.

@gamer2101 10 месяцев назад

Yes! Yes! Yes! I have to save scum. Every time I don't it always messes me up.

@DekanTrue111 10 месяцев назад

I save scrum to shape the story that I want told. I "try" to resist save scum to ruin the illusion of a coherent story. The feeling of what could have happened

@ugzz 10 месяцев назад

Everyone has their own opinions. Personally, if I'm going to save scum, then I might as well just download a trainer (or use a hex editor) that lets me fudge rolls and only use it when I would save scum. To me, it's the same thing, but straight up cheating is quicker, easier, and no loading..

@etourdie 10 месяцев назад

Another way baldurs gate encourages save scumming: you have +10 to a given skill check, and it's important for you to lose on a DC 10 skill check. Oh? What's that? You didn't play a rogue? Nevermind, you have a 1/20 chance of your character completely forgetting everything to do with that skill. Hope it's something you can make a second attempt at!

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

exactly. there is absolutely no reason why my 7 foot tall barbarian half-orc with 18 strenght and proficiency in strenght checks cant roll above a 7 to break down a door. its genuinely immersion breaking and i always reload when it happens

@SMJSmoK 10 месяцев назад

I really prefer how New Vegas handles skill checks. You either have the sufficient score in that skill your you don't (or a particular trait, attribute etc.). IMO this reflects how skills and knowledge work much better. You either have the knowledge or you don't. I think that randomness makes much more sense in combat, because combat is messy, lot's of things happening at the same time etc., so hit chances are a decent approximation of that.

@The7thDraconian 10 месяцев назад

I'm trying to save scum less, not because I see it as cheating, but because I have mind goblins that make me want to go for the "optimal route." Except I save scum the most in stealth games and RPGs where that kind of perfectionism either hurts my experience or denies me an experience I'd enjoy just as much. Reloading everytime I'm seen in Dishonored means I lose out on getting to make a frantic escape. Reloading during Divinity Original Sin 2 leads to me agonizing over what method is "correct" which just leads to Anxiety instead of fun. Thing is, this is just me trying to deal with a me problem. The idea of getting upset or judging people for save scumming strikes me as conceited at best.

@pandamonium9255 9 месяцев назад

This video in 5 seconds: I PAY MY OWN SUB!!!!

@alansaad808 10 месяцев назад

I'll give you an example from my experience why you shouldn't save scum. During my playthrough in act 2 a important character died, because of that it led to one of the most intense battles in the game and several important characters died. This felt like the "Ordeal" stage of the heroes journey. The story was suddenly way more engaging because now I was going into the final boss for revenge and redemption.

@_holy__ghost 10 месяцев назад

was that character spoilers the moon cleric at the last light inn?

@robbiealixsantos 10 месяцев назад

The title 😂

@rd-um4sp 10 месяцев назад

you, you: you savescummer! Welcome to the club. I do have a problem, with myself, when I savescum. But I love D&D. Now, judging someone else single player gaming practice is just absurd. And even in D&D, you do have a human DM with some judgment that will adapt the campaign depending on how things are going to create the best experience. And that seems like what you are describing.

@Law-gnome 10 месяцев назад

Thank you for putting this out! I appreciate hearing your input on a matter (even if it matches another video that came out recently). For me, I have no problem with save scumming, as I am more interested in seeing how the story plays out, rather than be left with an unsatisfactory end for a character due to missing a random dice roll.

@IAm.Messmer.Brother.Of.Malenia 10 месяцев назад

im just so happy to see people talking about this game so much. i see bg3 being used in gaming and streaming ads. its so amazing that it broke into the mainstream

@Dahras1 10 месяцев назад

I think the bad argument against save-scumming is the one that tries to control how people have fun. If you want to play BG3 like you are writing your own story from an external perspective, then save-scumming is great and you should absolutely do it. If for any reason you have save-scummed and enjoyed your experience, that is great. Arguing from an absolutist point of view about save-scumming is "Stop Having Fun: the argument". But, I think, there is a good argument against save-scumming, namely that doing so *can* harm your experience by removing your immersion. If you are really trying to roleplay your PC then you are also having to make decisions without knowing their consequences.. And that is a core part of the roleplaying process. Of course, in moderation, save-scumming can help deal with minor foibles (like losing a party member to a random crit). But the problem is that, for many people, once they start save-scumming, they continue to do so even when it makes their experience worse. Even more people save-scum without ever having tried the game without it, and so don't know what they're missing out on. So, sure, if you like to save-scum, that is awesome, and you should roll with it. But for people who either save-scum and don't like it, or for people who have never tried not save-scumming, I would highly suggest making a non-save-scum BG3 file and just seeing what happens after a couple of hours of play. If you don't like it, you can always go back.

@jacksonjabba 10 месяцев назад

I think the whole you can do whatever you want is a pretty poor argument for save scumming. While there are a few assholes who genuinely are mad that others play games in a way they don’t like, I think most people would think that it’s stupid, and it’s not an argument that I really see being made seriously. Just because you can do whatever you want doesn’t always mean it’s the most fun. I ultimately am pretty neutral-positive on save scumming, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have opinions on what can or can not make a game more fun. I may make the argument in favor of save scumming, but just as equally wrong by the standards of “you shouldn’t tell people what to do in any way” if that makes sense I also think the focus on combat is a misplaced argument. You’re supposed to save often, especially before combat and dialogue, because if you party wipe the only option is to reload that save. What you’re not “supposed” to do is save before every attack to make sure you always crit, or before dialogue checks to make sure you always succeed. Doing those things in many(but not all) cases can reduce enjoyment for some(emphasis) people That being said, what you’re supposed to do isn’t always fun, and that’s where I disagree with people who are anti- save scumming. They’re right in saying that baldur’s gate 3 is intricately designed to have interesting results on failed checks, but they’re wrong in realizing that some people may actually want to save scum specifically to fail as is expertly pointed out. This is also why I’m pro cheating in games. Yeah if you cheat or save scum to trivialize the game that’s not much fun, but I think most people know that, and those can be used to create scenarios that are more fun. If you are a person who ruins games for yourself in that way, then you shouldn’t save scum, I don’t for some games because in certain circumstances I can be that person, but I do think it can be a great narrative tool. Amazing video as always

@andreimelescanu8494 10 месяцев назад

I think save scumming isn't an issue for individuals, but for games that are designed around it. I used to save scum a lot 10-15 years ago when I was younger, but now it annoys the hell out of me when I'm basically forced to reload, even at low difficulty levels. It pulls me out of the game and feels like a huge waste of time. It also feels like the devs couldn't be bothered to balance the game and instead rely on you reloading. I love making mistakes in games and dealing with them, but this style of combat breaks all immersion.

@Dorrovian 10 месяцев назад

The discussion of consequences and rolling with them is strange to me. Most "consequences" in cRPG mean you have to murder entire town (or you are lucky, half of it) if you fail Speech check or Steal check for one Stimpack, removing often up to ten or more quests, tons of shopkeepers and dialogue. How does it supposedly enhance your gameplay and story? The answer is it doesn't.

@Ventraeus 10 месяцев назад

My first playthrough ive been saving and loading as much as I please. I'm role-playing as my dnd character so I want to have the ideal story arc for him! I already have plans for a few playthroughs were I wont 'save scum'. Especially a Dark Urge playthrough