How Shōgun Makes Translation Exciting 

Nerdwriter1 will you please condemn the actions of your government in funding an ongoing genocide

Translating (what the words say) v Interpreting (add body language, tone everything else)

I had the same discussion in another Chanel , and the guy who made the video didn’t understand my point of view about translations made long time ago in movies , how that’s getting better in portraying culture , this video explains it better than me , how by not Americanizing characters is better for the depth of a movie and the tru portrayal of a culture or time , I hope they talked in Portuguese as well

@@LaoWatsonSmith Not just that, its how culture itself shapes a language. So when it come to translation, the culture context of the language must be taken into account.

Yeah right, the show should be in Japanese and Portuguese 🙂 But forget the Portuguese right? 😅

Is it good? Is it worth watching?

Very much so@@willtheprodigy3819

@@willtheprodigy3819 Yep. Episode 3 is a bit of a stumble, but everything else is excellent. The final episode doesn't air until the end of this month though.

@@willtheprodigy3819 I'm loving it! I don't watch that much TV but I haven't been this excited every week for a show since Andor and early GoT before that!

​​​​@@willtheprodigy3819maybe? Depends what you like. I think the performances are mostly fine, though not being a Japanese speaker, I can only give a very subjective opinion on some of the line delivery from the Japanese actors. I thought most of them were very good. Spanish and Portuguese characters are fine, was always happy to see them again and catch up on their plots. The John Blackthorn actor....I thought was ok. He made a few performance choices with how to portray the character that got kind of grating and monotonous and I didn't love the performance even from the start. The writing has a little bit more telling vs showing than I loved, but some narrative/backstory dialogue dumps are worked in neatly enough by having an ignorant, bullish Englishman who CONSTANTLY needs things explained to him. It's FX, so while it's not HBO level in the gratuity of language, sex, and violence depicted on screen, there's a fair amount of all three. Pro/neutral/con, depending on your preferences, the LSV content is not ignorable. The sets are lovely, the editing is solid, there's a few plotholes but not that bad, and Nerdwriter is correct, if you are someone who is interested in cross cultural communication and translation as a subject, then there's lots to love here. As someone who has done some comparative critiques and some original translation in grad school and loved it so much I briefly thought about changing degree programs, I mostly enjoyed the first 5 episodes, but by then I was just so annoyed every time John Blackthorn was on screen that I stopped. I might finish it, might not. Maybe his portrayal is historically accurate, I can see how it might be, but I just hate him. 🙃 If someone else who finished it agrees with me and thinks he got better at the end, lmk.

Conversely, my partner is a translator, and she is often at pains to point out to people that she is not an interpreter, as that is an entirely different skill. She considered going into it, but it would require a whole new set of training.

An interpreter and a translator have two very different skillsets. An interpreter translates live spoken word, while a translator handles different kinds of text that are set beforehand. This can range from words on paper to audio to subtitles and anything in between. What they do in the EU when live is interpreting. Anything else that gets translated via the EU is done by translators. Just a bit of clarification!

A translator doesn't "just translate words" they translate culture and meaning too. Translation is text and interpretation is spoken language. Different skill sets, but both adapt one language and culture to another. It's not "just words".

@@aliquidcow Not really. Interpretation is essential to the task of translation. Especially between cultures far apart. For instance Japanese language and especially historic variants has a lot of signifiers of class differences. Those would not be present in the English/Portuguese, and thus needs to be added by the translator, interpreting where they should be.

@@Carewolf You're taking about the concept of interpretation. Of course translation requires 'interpreting' things in a literal sense. I'm talking about the job known as 'Interpreter'. The point is, interpretation on the fly for people having a conversation in real time is a very different job to translating written text, especially texts in creative fields. Many of the same principles apply, but they are different skills. Not a matter of opinion; you would need different qualifications to work as either one.

Mariko was so jealous at that moment hahaha

​@@damiloification ikr?? Maiko's actress is able to portray so much with so little

​​@@damiloificationNa. She understands it's just typical flowery courtesan speak (and undoubtedly how they can act as spies) and decided it's "not in my lord's interest" to encourage the liaison. 😂

​@@LizardSporkI also believe that to be the case. Mariko knows how dangerous courtesans can be, even if she is unaware of Kiku's connection to Yabushigue's nephew

When he elaborated his frustration about their whole rules and cultures … mariko: he is having a problem with his gardener!

I'd been a translator as well as an Interpreter for 30 yrs or so and yes as translator you write what's written where as you edit detract bcs it could be misinterpreted (misunderstood) or receiver wouldn't have a point of reference so you as an interpreter must add information that was not said. I don't have FX so I've not watched the show but from some of these trailers I'd seen I really appreciated their treatments of language and class issues.

Basically, translators are honest while interpreters may deceive those they interpret for... that gives interpreters power to push their own agenda, very dangerous if unchecked.

I assume you’re monolingual? ​​⁠Whether interpreting or translating, you have to make changes because otherwise it would just be incomprehensible, especially between languages as different as Japanese and English. Then you have cultural differences: what you might say in one language could sound offensive or stupid or just strange if said directly in the other language, even if that was not the speaker’s intent. An interpreter’s job is to convey the intent and spirit of the message in an appropriate manner for the target language. In any case if there is any suspicion between two parties they will usually bring their own interpreters, so if one of them just starts making stuff up they would be found out fairly quickly. @@WithmeVerissimusWhostoned

@@harfgarflarf haha, yea right,... all these 'cultural differences' is a load of bollocks, humans are humans... and unless they decide to become apes they're still humans... 'culture' is a like the clothes you wear, irrelevant once you're naked....

@@WithmeVerissimusWhostoned No, thats not the takeaway from that.

That's quite a testament to the writing, and I guess in a way to Anna Sowa's acting, although I find her portrayal gratingly anachronistic in the previews. She's about as period Japanese in her intonation and manner as Charlize Theron. But I am prepared to be turned around by the full picture, it would not be the first time.

@@AndSendMe well she must be a bit of a cultural outlier as she wants to die and doesn't give a shit. She's excited for her life to have any purpose beyond being a loveless housewife, and clearly embraces her time and influence among what is essentially a desperate war council of of conniving men.

Wtf

She is so boring and a buzz kill

Because Alvito was the only one who couldn't lie. Toranaga invited Mariko there precisely so she would expose Alvito in case he lied.

The series succeed in making every character as good as they know how or as bad as their enemies think of them. Avito is just trying to honor and defend both his nation interest and his own religious beliefs. Also, I'ts great seeing how much western individuality contrast with the hive mind culture of old Japan.

Father Sebastial was the first, but who is the second character who wants to compromise Blackthorne? Does Mariko want to compromise him?!

@@metasystem8625 Yes. She keeps lying to Blackthorne whenever the things someone else said made her uncomfortable.

@@curupa66 Yeah but Alvito never seemed to show any interest in lying anyways. I know he knows Mariko can speak Portugese, but Alvito is consistently portrayed to have strong, unwavering morals. To me, that scene never emphasized Mariko's presence as to why Alvito cannot lie. In fact, I'm pretty sure before he sees Mariko he states that he doesn't need to lie, because Blackthorne's abrasiveness will show his true colors. To me, the scene more or less portrayed the fact that there are decent people no matter the faith, nationality, etc.

Wow! Fascinating comment. And excellently conveyed. 👍🏼 In so few words you have described your relationship and growth. I’m still not sure why this was so touching. Thanks for sharing your experience❣️

Two cultures, three languages, two opposite instinct... Now this sounds like a promising sitcom! 😂 Please give us a story of two.

Interesting. In defense of English, my third language, it's the product of countless conquests and simplifications to make it, in essence, a language of servants, of slaves, drained of humanity, purposefully.

​@karlstriepe8050 I don't recognise this description of English at all. I've heard US speakers say that US English is very utilitarian because as an immigrant nation emphasis is placed on being understood. My experience in the South of England is that it is a very nuanced and subtle language, I imagine quite similar to Japanese in the attention payed to social standing and quite a complex way of being polite. Ours is the language of Shakespeare and Austen after all!

I read this comment and less than a couple of hours later I found myself listening to the FX Shogun Podcast series. I was surprised to find out that Episode 6 is directed by a Japanese-Mexican woman. She shares her experience on the episode. Todo el mejor para usted y su mujer.

spot on

Starting toshiro mifune no less!

It really is worth a watch. It's very good, and not all that long. Just be willing to get past the beginning part. Blackthorne's other crew members are not very good actors and the series get dramatically better once they are out of sight.

Keren

The way you structured and wrote this paragraf tho, tells me that Indonesian is your mother tongue. But I can't really elaborate why.

Thanks for the interesting points! I wonder how the Pheasant part plays out in the book, because in the 1980 version, Anjin never says that if you touch it you die, because like you touched upon, he knows that these people kill others for very little. Instead he only says that no one should touch it but him. Of course, the outcome is the same. It makes more sense to me that Anjin is devastated in the 1980 version, because he didn't use the word "die" at all.

​@@DemonstormlordThe word 'die' isn't mentioned in the book either: " He had already hung the pheasant under the eaves of an outhouse with careful instructions that no one, no one was to touch it but him. “Do they understand, Fujiko-san? No touching but me?” he asked with mock gravity. “Oh, yes, Anjin-san. They all understand. So sorry, excuse me, but you should say ‘No one’s to touch it except me.’” " In the novel as in the 1980 series, the issue is that touching the pheasant at all is forbidden, so the gardener is killed for disobeying the order. In the new series I read it that the Japanese characters focus on that disobedience, but Blackthorn gets hung up on the specific words.

V interesting and I'd agree with, the exception being the fewer tense claim. Strictly speaking, referring to verb morphology, English has two *tenses*, present and past. Everything else we commonly call tenses (perfect, continuous etc.) is aspect or a periphrastic construction with an auxiliary ("have") or a modal ("will"). The average English verb only has four conjugated forms (e.g. narrate, narrates, narrated, narrating), whereas Japanese puts much more information on the verb and also has a vastly richer auxiliary and affix system to encode meanings that often devolve to adverbs in English.

Besides, Japanese is such a beautiful language that communicates so much in tone even to those of us who do not understand it. I love that they never go full English dialogue. It would be like dressing them all up in English clothes.

Tell your friend no one learns a language that fast, especially Japanese.

In the book, the author teaches the readers alongside Blackthorne. By the end of the book, you are understanding as much of the language as he is.

That doesn't make sense. That would mean they only speak japanese, not english.

he should just watch the dubbed version :)

Yet, I would always enjoy seeing both a true translated and an interpreted translated side by side. The later to understand what was said and the former to learn how the culture thinks and sees the world.

Dealing with Japanese games and animation I see it all the time. People hear a word they recognize but the subtitles don't say what they expect, so then they complain about "localization". Not understanding a thing about how a translation is supposed to convey a meaning as close to the original as possibly, it's not merely to just swap words. Translation is adaptation and that's not a bad thing, but if you want the "true version", learn Japanese language and culture, because the purpose of a translation isn't only to be accurate to the text, but also the meaning, way more the meaning.

@@Nukle0n I agree with your main points, but there does need to be a difference between those that unrightfully complain about small changes to dialogue to help with understanding and flow... and those who deliberately change the entire meaning to insert their own political views or because "this may be offensive to western audiences". There is a reason for the whole "Eat your hamburgers, Apollo" meme or the Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid line regarding the "pesky patriarchal societal demands" (there are many more examples in that category, the Dragon Maid one is just one of the most well-known).

@@Windmelodie "eat your hamburgers" is a meme comic, but it's because they moved the setting of the series in the first game. And I generally think that was the smarter move, lets them translate the names to equally punny ones. And yes that dragon maid one seems to be a pretty bad example, but what are you gonna do, stuff happens. Esp for anime they don't tend to get very good localizers, it's a cutthroat market because nobody wants to pay for anime.

@@Nukle0n Though sadly it's not just anime or manga, it's also video games such as US localisers forcing changes on Japanese audiences in Rune Factory 5 or even really BIG games like Final Fantasy 16. From what I have seen, it just further deepens the divide between Sub vs. Dub, as well as using fantranslations as opposed to official ones. People want to know what is actually being said as opposed to what "carries the tone, but adapted for western audiences" or whatever the localisers WANT to be said. And far too many localisers and translators simply miss that sweet spot between "keikaku means plan", "eat your hamburgers, Apollo" and whatever the hell Fire Emblem thought they were doing. And as a translator, it is your job to convey what is being SAID in a way others can UNDERSTAND it.

He just wants to get back to his ship so he can continue singing renditions of Gay Pirates

Wondering if he ever dabbled in scream singing. He's got the depth for it.

There is no translation without interpretation. Its always a creative act, because there is no direct access to the object of underatanding. Understanding is always a fusion of horizons between subjects.

@@rafaelnunesduartei mean there is literal translation with stuff like google translate which doesn’t do any actual interpretation of the meaning of the words it’s trying to translate.

@@anamoose461 according to gadamer, at least, there is no such thing as literal. All is an aproximation, not exact translation. Because of the subjective nature of meaning. Literal translation is a fiction, accepted for pratical purpuses.

@@anamoose461 That's arguably still an interpretation, and probably a worse one. You're losing the cultural nuance of word choices, subtle differences in meaning, puns and other wordplay, cultural idioms, etc. Google Translate will translate "watashi to shourai ni ikimashou" and "ore to mirai e ikuzo" to the exact same thing. "Let's go to the future." But in Japanese the first sentence is a lot more formal. The speaker chose a bland inoffensive first-person pronoun, the 'future' referred to is a relatively near-future, and the verb is in a formal, polite form. It feels like something you'd hear someone at an Airport say as they escorted you to the plane. A time-travel plane. In the second one the speaker uses a casual semi-arrogant masculine first-person pronoun, the future referred to is a distant one, the 'e' emphasizes the journey between now and the distant future, and the verb is a very informal, almost yakuza-adjacent form of the verb. It feels like something you'd hear a guy in a seedy bar say to you as he opened a door to a back room, a door that started your long journey to being Yakuza in the distant future. I just really wanted to use two similar words with different meanings and 'future' was the first one I thought of. But literally they both mean, "Let's go to the future."

The only difference is that translation is written while interpretation is spoken. The distinction only matters is the sense that they are different skill sets used in different contexts. Yeah it would have been technically more accurate to say "interpretation" in the video, but that's just a pedantic distinction.

The new show is based on the same book, not the original show.

It's not a remake though. It's a new adaptation of the book itself. The 1980 version chose to be fully focused on Blackthorne's perspective so we as the audience also felt the same isolation as a stranger in far away lands as he does. The 2024 version chose to follow closer to the book (and more to make it more period correct).

Corrected.

Voice AIs are advanced enough that for a DVD release they could translate the spoke English into spoken Portuguese in what sounds like each actor's own voice.

It's weird for me too, most of the times I forget they are talking portuguese. Portugal Portuguese it would be nice to hear

I imagine this was a deliberate decision. Finding Japanese actors fluent in Portuguese (and it has to be period accurate Portuguese) will probably take a very long time. Also, imagine having to deal with English, Japanese, and Portuguese all at once in a show. You’ll lose a lot of audiences. English served as a good substitute for Portuguese in this case.

@@alexanderwalter4595 That would be a terrible thing to do in a show that is so focused with historical accuracy.

No one gives two shits

You are used to subtitles, because your dubbing is shit.

True

That scene also struck me as well. I think it's possible to translate something of those nuances, but only by adding a lot of additional phrases that aren't literally there. Like in English we often distinguish polite from plain speech by a similar means as Japanese - speaking more indirectly and with more qualifiers. I.e. "Can you do this for me?" vs. "If it's not too much trouble, would you be so kind as to do this for me, please?" Japanese just takes thar concept deeper and hs different conjugation forms as well as even more words which mean the same thing but with different levels of politeness.

Thank you for noticing and commenting on this. As someone who has been watching anime for a long time and has picked up a lot on their dialogue and mannerisms, Shogun 2024's actual Japanese dialogue translation often deliberately does not translate keigo well, sometimes omits it entirely and often certain cultural words are also replaced that most people who have not seen other Japanese media will not realize they are missing. For a video essay talking about the strength of translation at bridging the gap between cultures, for the show's literal hardcoded translated subtitles to omit these things is odd to me. If you already trust the viewer to be intelligent and being willing to learn, why omit these things which add more context to the characters and situations?

Well, the first adaptation was my favourite series for some decades, so...

@@miskatonic6210 it’s a great one. But have you seen this one? Brutal

There is no translation without interpretation. Its always a creative act, because there is no direct access to the object of underatanding. Understanding is always a fusion of horizons between subjects.

Literally what she's doing is interpreting and not translating, but that's only because she does it verbally and not written. But for the purposes of this video essay it doesn't change anything to use the more common colloquial "translating" as a catch all term.

@@rafaelnunesduartewhat in the abstract forsaken heck are you on about? If it’s verbal, it’s interpreting , if it is written it is translating

@@cosmolove its just hermeneutics! You can interpret any text. By interpret, i mean understand. By text, i mean anything we can attribute meaning to it. Search for thinkers like gadamer, heiddeger, husserl, if you are interested! Or dont! Do what suits you!

@@cosmolove i think we are having a misunderstanding. Seems like we are attributing a different meaning to the Word "interpret". While i read interpret as "understand", you read it as "enact", like an actor interpret a character in a play. Both meanings are valid. I understand what you are saying. But what i was saying is that, to translate or interpret something, you have to understand it, you have to attribute some meaning to the text.

Don't watch the show if that bothers you! Very easy fix!

@@LeoCannotPark you are a dummy aren't you?

@@LeoCannotPark I enjoyed the show, thanks. This video is praising the show's approach to subtitles and translation but it fails to mention that Portuguese and Spanish characters are speaking english. It did bother me because it's inaccurate. Maybe it would be confusing to have so many languages, but that's just how it was at the time.

Does that mean the commandment is now Thou shalt not unalive? 😂

For sure, though because it is made for an English audience you would then have to add ANOTHER layer of interpretation which would further obscure the meaning. Since we are supposed to only completely understand Blackthorne, who is English, I think they made the right choice. Maybe they will do a Portuguese dub though

I think the main challenge with that is the added degree of difficulty in finding actors who fit the roles who ALSO speak Japanese and Portuguese, which is significantly less common than Japanese to English. I think it's a fair criticism you have, though, but it's undone by practicality.

@@hollandscottthomas yeah, I think that's most likely the case, I can cut them some slack hahaha. I think you would only be able to find brazilian actors with japanese descent, but even then they would have to pull off the old portuguese accent, so yeah, tough af. but man, as a portuguese speaker, there are some scenes that I would get so freaking hyped if they were actually speaking the language. anyways, that most likely only bothers portuguese speakers anyhow.

They covered this in the official podcast. Whenever we hear english being spoken, it is really dutch or portugese, depending who is speaking

@@HK23783yes, and it’s driving me insane 😅 Just have all the correct languages, it would have been amazing!

I kinda get it. To get English-speaking audiences, particularly Americans, to engage, there was probably a perceived demand for a significant amount of English spoken.

I’m pretty sure the Japanese people in Shogun believe the English language itself WAS Portuguese as they where lead to believe that Portugal was the entirety of Europe. This misconception was created by the Christians living there and later cleared by Blackthorn.

I always wondered why in Star Wars the translator machines were called 'protocol droids', but now it makes a lot more sense.