How Slow is JavaScript Really? JavaScript vs C++ (Data Structures & Optimization)

Подписаться 185 тыс.

Просмотров 289 тыс.

50% 1

Is JavaScript really that slow? Or is that just a leftover impression from the old days?
Patreon: / simondevyt
Follow me on:
Twitter: / iced_coffee_dev
Instagram: / beer_and_code
Github: github.com/simondevyoutube/
In this video we talk a bit about JavaScript vs C++, and the performance difference between them. We'll talk quickly about the history of JavaScript before working through a few small benchmarks to compare performance between them, using various optimization levels for gcc. It's kind of interesting to see how much JavaScript's performance has evolved with JIT (just in time) compilation since the early Netscape days. The v8 team has made enormous strides in performance and is narrowing the gap with C++ year by year. We'll also walk through some examples of what you can do with your basic C++ code to squeeze more performance out, either by using better compiler flags or SSE/AVX intrinsics to get better usage out of your CPU.
What's covered:
* Super brief history of JavaScript and V8
* Benchmarks and comparison of JavaScript vs C++
* SSE and AVX intrinsics
* gcc -Ofast and float associativity
* Some closing thoughts on JavaScript's performance today, as well as C++.
Speed, Speed, Speed: JavaScript vs C++ vs WebAssembly:
• Speed, Speed, Speed: J...
Godbolt:
godbolt.org/
Wikipedia:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associa...
Various blog posts from V8 team:
blog.chromium.org/2010/12/new...
v8.dev/blog/10-years
v8.dev/blog/launching-ignitio...
v8.dev/blog/adaptor-frame
v8.dev/blog/high-performance-...
v8.dev/blog/fast-super
v8.dev/blog/preparser
v8.dev/blog/spread-elements
v8.dev/blog/background-compil...
v8.dev/blog/fast-properties
v8.dev/blog/fast-for-in

Наука

Опубликовано:

19 апр 2021

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист

Посмотреть позже

Комментарии : 904

@PaweMateuszBytner Год назад

i am maths and informatics teacher on private University in Poland, and it's rather distinctive that many students I teach are already programmer technicians / professionals with some market experience. I heard many times about superiority of C++ from people worried about performance when the lecture was about C#, JS or Python. Then those same people were completely missing the point on the lecture on algorithms and data structures. I notoriously see invalid solutions to rather simple problems - sometimes just tweaked to pass provided examples- and code that is completely unaware of data structures other than arrays, or maybe aware of linked lists, but using them like arrays. Dude, your C++ code will be slower than my JS code for not-small-enough data if you don't know what data structure or algorithm when to use

@simondev758 Год назад

Absolutely, just focus on getting the basic approach decent. I've spent years working with C++ devs, like you have, and despite all of their "worries", most of them produced pretty bad code

@gugiserman 3 года назад

Most people complaining about your language of choice probably can't write half the logic you do

@kevinjohansson3923 3 года назад

Yeah, and then they write something in C++ which is buggy at best because they can't handle it at all. I'd rather master a higher level language before jumping to low level stuff if I were them but nope.

@brawlgammer4424 3 года назад

@@kevinjohansson3923 But here's the catch: being really good at a low level language teaches alot more about programming fundamentals than a high level one. What you described are bad programming practices and that is an issue on its own, a programmer with bad practices in low level languages will probably port them on to another language in a similar fashion. I started programming in C and even though i'm no master i now have a very good grasp on programming fundamentals and most of what i've learned is transversal.

@dufferzzzzz 3 года назад

@@brawlgammer4424 Agreed. I started learning to code with JS, learned basic C to understand types better, alongside memory allocation. Then I moved on to learning TypeScript, C++ and GoLang.. Investing time in C and C++ significantly improved my understanding.

@thewarriors3048 3 года назад

@@dufferzzzzz As someone who is about to start learning programming, I am thinking on which language to start with. I know I can pivot down the road, and ultimately, low level languages are what intrigue me, however I don't think they're smart for genuine progression as a beginner. It seems like JavaScript is truly the best bet even though web development isn't too interesting to me as of now. Edit: And of course there's Python and it's vast amount of libraries. I just don't know of any decent beginner projects that can be done with low level languages. It's always really awesome, advanced projects. Open source is great, but really how much can you truly contribute as a beginner?

@dufferzzzzz 3 года назад

@@thewarriors3048 I always have a hard time deciding on projects too. I chose to start with javascript because it is fairly easy, but as 'easy' as it is, it will cause you just as many headaches because of how it works with types. I understand your view on Web dev not being interesting. When I first started, I learned html, js, css, node and ejs templating.. Didn't enjoy it overly much. Creating multiple basic CRUD applications soon got boring. I decided to learn React and investigate CQRS and microservices architecture in the cloud.. Honestly 1000x more interesting in my opinion... Terraform, kubernetes, RabbitMQ, Kafka, gRPC, Jenkins build pipelines.. Even github actions.. There really are a lot of brilliant technologies involved when you start looking more full-stack than just front end. Also if you are using microservices then you can have them essentially in any language you want. Golang is my personal go to, and you can take full advantage of the languages choose to write them in. JS is slow (sue me, haters) , and sometimes a pre compiled c++/go binary will run 4x faster so it just makes a lot more sense to use. First language is always the hardest, keep persisting and you will recognise patterns.. Good luck to you!

@filipe_paixao 3 года назад

episode 7: calling chemistry and electrical engineers to remodel all individual parts of all hardware pieces to be 100% oriented to the program we want

@L1Q 3 года назад

ah yes, good ol ASICs

@yourlocalengineer 3 года назад

have you heard of FPGAs

@williewokkel 2 года назад

Fpga’s are sick

@Ferdam 3 года назад

I've heard you can beat most languages if you write your stuff directly in binary 🙃

@Rssks 3 года назад

Haha! Why not just wire yourself to the cpu and tap your bits in manually 🤣 ?

@simondev758 3 года назад

Even faster if you just build it right into the hardware. Only n00bs don't build the silicon themselves.

@tythedev9582 3 года назад

@@simondev758 I have a nice game idea, I just need to go mine those precious metals first

@andrewdunbar828 3 года назад

Nah, I used to program in binary machine code when I was a kid because I didn't have an assembler. Code is the same speed written that way as code written in assembly, but takes longer to write. BUT you CAN beat most languages if you write your stuff directly in Verilog or VHDL for an FGPA (-:

@blablabla7796 3 года назад

@@andrewdunbar828 that’s pretty cringe not making your own specialized hardware for each function. Kidding aside, using FPGAs are a little cheaty because of just how good they could be. I’m glad that we’re almost past having to use specialized FPGAs because GPU processing is becoming more and more accessible.

@dempa3 3 года назад

I think it'd be interesting to learn from you how to write efficient code in general (I understand you have worked with optimizing other people's code for games), and maybe a "learn efficient JavaScript together" series of videos.

@misterl8129 Год назад

please please please, as a semi sinior js dev it would be a great step for my carreer. Like a reproduction list of videos :D

@Tiptup300 Год назад

Learn more of how data moves around on computers. Data Structures + Algorithms = programs

@CottidaeSEA 3 года назад

How you write the code is often more important than what language you write the code in. Understand what operations are efficient and which are not. Choose accordingly when performance matters.

@BryceDixonDev 3 месяца назад

An efficient implementation will always be faster than a poor/naïve implementation, regardless of the language used for either case. If you implement an N^3 algorithm in C++, it'll trend slower than a log(N) implementation in even the slowest interpreted language. Shocks me that self-proclaimed "experts" miss that.

@CottidaeSEA 3 месяца назад

@@BryceDixonDev Yeah, it's also why performance benchmarks are a sham. At best a marketing strategy. Python has awful performance for example, but it can be extremely performant if it is used to call compiled C functions. There'll be some overhead, but it won't be crazy slow as if everything was written in native Python. So knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the language is just as much skill as writing the code itself.

@LewiLewi52 3 года назад

Bet u can squeeze out even more performance with Holy C.

@blocksrey 3 года назад

Lmao

@juliankandlhofer7553 3 года назад

who needs performance when you can have 3d graphics in your code?

@crynesssruns7364 3 года назад

Behold Assembly

@LordFers 3 года назад

Terry would be proud of you boy.

@Xman_9 3 года назад

you can squeeze out even more performance with byte code than holly C. even better you can build your own computer to squeeze more performance!

@cynical5062 Год назад

Great video! One thing I feel like you forgot to mention at the end is that, while yes, the V8 team is going to keep finding optimizations, so will the people working on GNU's GCC G++ compiler. It's essentially a race to see who can find clever optimizations faster.

@simondev758 Год назад

Definitely. I highly doubt V8 will ever catch up, but they'll probably get a little closer each year.

@andrewsides7250 3 года назад

Just checked out your instagram. Thought you were a 60-something year old man until now. Love your channel!

@simondev758 3 года назад

I'm 60 at heart.

@dgcp354 3 года назад

@@simondev758 isn't comparing language what newbie do, cuz I don't think js and c++ are meant to be used for the same goal, I'm disappointed at this video, I don't think people use c++ to build a website or use js to build a game (no idea), am I wrong

@telnobynoyator_6183 3 года назад

@@dgcp354 he used js in his videos, probably because it's easy for beginners to understand and ppl started shitting on him bc of that. So he made a video saying js isn't that bad.

@dgcp354 3 года назад

@@telnobynoyator_6183 oh I get that, he keeps saying js ain't bad in the video, that's why I said to myself why even compare them at all, every language has a purpose to shine on. every language is not intended to do everything. and trying to convince js haters is like pouring water on a stone.

@Veso266 3 года назад

How old are you then?

@tuomaskoivistoinen6476 3 года назад

I think really nailed it with the "you get to understand your code" and that it "sucks to have a compilers job". The less constraints a language has, the more performance you can squeeze out. But the more constraints it has, the more transparent it gets. High level languages should never beat system level languages on performance, but it's nice to see the difference isn't too bad.

@simondev758 3 года назад

When I grow up, I really don't want to be a compiler. Yeah it's pretty cool to see how much work V8 has put into this, some real wizards over there.

@Spongman 3 года назад

this is true in practice, but not necessarily so. you could have a "do what i mean" high-level language that generates the provably-optimal solution for whatever high-level request you give it and it would always be as fast or faster than hand-written code. there's no requirement that high-level languages be slower, that's just where we are right now.

@kosnk 3 года назад

I think we now recognise that high-level language compilers are starting to outsmart an average low-level coding (especially for functional languages, where math can give compilers more hints).

@ThePC007 3 года назад

Ironically, using JS actually makes me have a compiler's job. Not when it comes to optimisation, but when it comes to find errors that should be found during compile time, but aren't (dynamic typing can be a real bitch, especially during refactoring). That said, scripting languages like JS, Lua, and the likes are great for learning how to code. I wouldn't chose JS over C++ even in situations where performance doesn't matter at all, but I'm happy that I didn't have to choose C++ as my first language to learn.

@kosnk 3 года назад

@@ThePC007 , did you have a chance to try TypeScript? Strict types with syntax otherwise identical to JS. For the past few years I start my web projects only with TypeScript. Also, there's an interesting project, called AssemblyScript -- its a low-level language, compiled to WebAssembly, while being similar to TypeScript in syntax.

@malcolmholmes115 3 года назад

Your voice is so calm and watching your videos is just like a meditation

@wahidurrahman8993 3 года назад

yeah

@490o 3 года назад

Thank you for actually putting the results next to each other. So many RU-vidrs who do benchmarks expect you to scrub around to compare results.

@jimpa7011 3 года назад

Im so glad I found this channel, Simon you make great videos.

@avi12 3 года назад

How about a benchmark of JavaScript vs C++ vs C++ via WebAssembly?

@noahsmith2555 3 года назад

I’ve seen you on the coding train discord lol. The internet is a small place.

@mateuszabramek7015 3 года назад

But WebAssembly is not javascript - it's compiled from languages like C++ , Rust Or even Typescript etc. So comparing C++ with C++ seems stupid. What JS does is just loads WebAssembly in browser, but that's it.

@noahsmith2555 3 года назад

@@mateuszabramek7015 WebAssembly is compiled to bytecode that runs on a stack-based virtual machine that is built into the browser, it is not native machine code. It is not comparing the languages’ speeds, it is just comparing the speed of the WebAssembly interpreter/VM interpreting WebAssembly bytecode, to the CPU directly executing native platform specific machine code.

@Justin73791 2 года назад

@@mateuszabramek7015 What about we use asm then, as that's technically JavaScript (though processed by the the same engine as wasm) :D

@awweather 3 года назад

I haven't really seen anyone do what you do in JS. Keep it up! As someone who's also working on a 2d mmorpg in javascript, I have already learned a ton of stuff from your videos

@Atmos41 3 года назад

That comment in the beginning, comparing Java to Javascript... The guy who wrote that clearly has not programmed with any of those languages if he thinks they are similar xD

@IndellableHatesHandles 3 года назад

JS looks no more like Java than any other language based on C syntax. Heck, even Python has more similar class syntax to Java.

@NathanHedglin 3 года назад

Great video as always Simon! Thanks

@SusumoKakinotane 2 года назад

This is excellent, honestly, you make great content. And even at the end, you point out the possible issues or considerations to even try to squid some more performance. Out of this world, glad I found your channel.

@aufkeinsten7883 2 года назад

Love this channel big time for the insightful & thoughtful content, but I'd genuinely listen to any amount of audio books you'd record

@emmanuelfelix5935 3 года назад

In the begining of the video I tought that you was forgeting important things of c++, but your final performance was impresive. great video!

@MuriloMielke 3 года назад

Did anyone already told Simon sounds like a Dark Souls NPC? I just got into the channel and couldn't help to think of it.

@nathanpointer7844 3 года назад

Praise the sun 🌞

@simondev758 3 года назад

So many not-fond memories of that game.

@solaris867 3 года назад

@@simondev758 Please fix your voice. You speak like something in your throat

@elidrissii 3 года назад

@@solaris867 Please fix your manners.

@illford6921 3 года назад

@@solaris867 yes change your voice, that you were born with. The voice if fine, sounds like a wise man if he had a long white beard I'd listen to everything he says. At that I don't get complaining about someone's voice pretty much just an insult

@j.c.h.9891 3 года назад

What this tells me is "Know your tools!" so hard. Thank you.

@A1rPun 3 года назад

You are very bright that you derive that meaning from this video. Javascript has a specific purpose for the browser. The video didn't even mention nodejs which is basically the javascript engine pulled out of the browser.

@wmcmurray 3 года назад

I was wondering exactly that the other day, I'm glad you did this comparison !

@kosnk 3 года назад

The reality is that if an app runs slow -- it's likely that the code is the issue, not the language. Roughly speaking, in O(n) -- n's coefficient has much less impact than its power. Yes, JS won't outperform c++, but it has more than enough fuel for a modern app (while surely gamedev being always greedy). As they say, a released app is worth much more than a well-optimised asm file. Good luck and happy coding!

@simondev758 3 года назад

Well said.

@rabradek Год назад

Unless you're using an interpreted language like Python, where you can expect 200x slower performance on each op when compared to a compiled language.

@Dev-Siri Год назад

@@rabradek Python can go fast too You just have to call C apis

@cat-.- 3 года назад

When you’re bottlenecked by a bunch of data operations often you need to.... Cpp people: AVX!! Js people: Wasm!!!

@Artintrex 3 года назад

C++ is my favorite language but, I still find your content interesting. Performance you manage to squeeze out of Javascript clearly shows your experience and many lessons here can be applied to games in any language.

@shapelessed Год назад

I'm a web dev, and while I do agree that JS has way too many flaws, I do respect how they decided not to add things like macros... Although you can still overwrite a global prototype of arrays for example and V8 will then not be able to use faster prototype lookups and you cold possibly f up the entire program.

@vinfern27 3 года назад

Excellent works as usual. Thank you.

@Retrosen 3 года назад

Your voice is so relaxing to hear dude! amazing content

@Rssks 3 года назад

Nice hands on testing! Results were as ~ expected but concept and context is what matters. By having fun in JS you open up dependency-free, ready to launch learning experience to wider range of novice fellows. Anything can be ported & fine-tuned for the final product :)

@Rssks 3 года назад

Don't get me and my sloppy English wording wrong, I do praise your work!

@redstone_mason 3 года назад

Why would you use C? Assembly is much faster

@Gol_D_Roger_The_Pirate_King 3 года назад

Binary is much faster

@neinnine4592 3 года назад

Actually binary would be faster!!

@nathanadhitya 3 года назад

Unable to imagine somebody writing "light" for optical processors for "truly fast"

@gaafts 3 года назад

To my knowledge, C code is compiled to assembly code, which is compiled to binary. In other words, it's compiled to binary anyway. There are some situations where assembly code can be faster than C code because you have outsmarted the C compiler with a faster way to do something. I can't imagine a single case where writing in binary will be faster than assembly.

@coopercone4293 3 года назад

@@gaafts You're right, but everyone above was joking around. Assembly is translated to machine code with an assembler, which uses a 1 to 1 mapping of instructions (for a given processor). Assembly is just a human readable version of machine code.

@michaelmulholland4380 3 года назад

Love the channel just subbed hoping for more great content! Thank u

@tuckerbeauchamp8192 3 года назад

Awesome video my friend!

@soykike1991 3 года назад

Hey awesome video just subscribed this is the kind of stuff I like to see, also there might be a way to optimize the javascript code, webworkers you can spawn to do some solid math operation, but might tend the start making your code more complex. For example for large arrays of vectors you can divide them into x quantity and spawn x workers I would love to see this compared to c++

@simondev758 3 года назад

Good idea, might be an interesting follow up video to compare threading.

@sps014 3 года назад

Great insights. C++ Wasm vs JS will be a fair comparison as both will run in Browser. Need one video on that. Thanks.

@user-lj4lo7cx7m Год назад

Please

@elliotcroteau5067 3 года назад

great stuff dude !

@tomm.4447 3 года назад

Awesome content! You really helped me with my pet project, thank you!

@ManasTunga 3 года назад

Nice comparison !!! Js being a single threaded web language that does most of job async quite impressive compared to strongly typed compiled language like C++

@krazybubbler 3 года назад

Love each and every video you upload SimonDev. Gold content as always!

@lucaslengyel8635 3 года назад

Really cool video!

@CollinBaillie 3 года назад

I wonder how much the processor technology improvements are part of the JavaScript performance increase? It would be interesting to see a comparison of old JavaScript vs old C/C++ on an old CPU. Obviously the range of tasks would be more restricted.

@IndigoCode 3 года назад

Great video, thanks! I was a JavaScript naysayer until my first time getting my hands dirty with it, but nowadays I love the language. I've seen some other comments wondering about a WebAssembly comparison, I'd definitely be curious what your benchmarks look like in asm.js and WASM. Awhile back I did some comparison between JS and WASM for skeletal animation (via Emscripten, -O3) but my results (5x-10x) were pretty dubious because I wasn't really comparing apples to oranges - no typed arrays, tons of allocations in the JS version, etc.

@simondev758 3 года назад

Definitely would be interesting, pretty sure the v8 team did some testing in the video, was pretty close to native performance. And WebAssembly SIMD is a thing now too.

@AndrewDevUA 3 года назад

awesome content!! Thanks!

@cykboy3254 3 года назад

i would like to see the same performance test ran in nodejs. id expect it to be faster than in a browser

@ThePapanoob 3 года назад

What makes you think that?

@Rssks 3 года назад

Nodejs runs v8, your browser runs v8. There should be no difference in performance of code execution. The only thing you might save in nodejs is the lack of the browser hugging up your cpu and memory (free unused resources) and that's about it :)

@cykboy3254 3 года назад

@@Rssks well, thats my point - the browser runs a v8 instance per tab and theres other factors to consider in that process that could use cycles/resources. plus nodejs has some specific architecture designs for async workloads which would be an interesting performance comparison for in modern c++

@cykboy3254 3 года назад

@@Rssks scoping also makes a big difference between browser and node, but writing good code that shouldnt be a bottleneck

@cykboy3254 3 года назад

@@ThePapanoob resource allocation. the c++ code was ran in its own process, the js code has to deal with the browser process + js execution. also, read other replies

@skilz8098 Год назад

Another metric that could have been looked at is when working with multidimensional arrays with nested for loops and how you index them while trying to maintain cache coherency (preventing more cache misses) as well as minimizing the use of the branch predictor. Data alignment and page swapping could be another thing to consider especially when reading / writing data to files... Memory layout and memory access is vital when it comes to finding bottlenecks within the source code to maintain a higher level of performance. Just as important as that is when you start to work with multithreading... When these techniques are involved and being used then compare the difference in performance between each language. Nice video BTW.

@HolyDemonRune 3 года назад

I love watching these things. When I first started learning programming it was like reading the matrix falling numbers screen. Now, I love going through videos, going "I completely understand everything this code is doing... wait wtf is that?" It's actually really fun and leads me to learn more about this subject! It's also impressive, it allows you to see the difference between experience and knowledge. I can read and understand whats going on, but there's no way in hell I could've have done ANY of this. there's a chance I could have, given a year. It's not like I don't have the knowledge to do this but I lack the experience and wisdom needed to accomplish such feats. It's inspiring and mortifying at the same time; exciting but still a long ways to go.

@simondev758 3 года назад

You have exactly the right attitude to become an extraordinary engineer.

@AntonioNoack 3 года назад

Memory layout indeed can be a problem, which the compiler cannot fix. Some CPUs only have (4/8 element) aligned loads. For my R5 2600 nothing happened when I used it incorrectly though ^^.

@markzuckerbread1865 Год назад

Came here from the ThePrimeTime video, glad I discovered this channel!

@EngineeringFun Год назад

Simon, what presentation software are you using (the cool animated font and drawing)? I just need a name or a keyword. Thanks!

@simondev758 Год назад

Which part? The black screens with titles? Those are google slides + me typing. The drawings are just any old paint program + editing out the menus

@EngineeringFun Год назад

@@simondev758 Amazing, thanks. Can you elaborate on the old paint program? Maybe I can find it. How about those 3D exemplifications of various programming concepts? Thanks!!!

@arminrosic9550 3 года назад

This is great stuff. I am often very pleasantly surprised by just how fast JavaScript is.

@greenpumpkin172 3 года назад

Right ? I would not expect JavaScript to be so fast !

@IxMeTutorials 3 года назад

V8 is a masterpiece

@alvarolloret948 3 года назад

Keep the 3D JavaScript content! You are doing great and your videos are really unique ☺️

@d-one-and-only 2 года назад

really cool..... what are your thoughts about web assembly?

@skwtf 3 года назад

Thank you! Can you start a beginners series on optimisation and best practices on common programming optimisation techniques, across different languages (if that's even a thing)?

@simondev758 3 года назад

That's what this series is!

@DFPercush 3 года назад

1. Don't bother optimizing things that don't matter. 2. Use the right algorithm. But above all else: 3. Remember the sage advice of financiers: cache is king.

@EngineerNick 3 года назад

This was amazing well made video :) I'd love one comparing python to javascript! I recently moved from python to rust... and I am wondering if I even need to go back :P

@plokki456 3 года назад

Nice video! I would be very interested to see a comparison of the performance of webgl and opengl. I worked on a project using threejs a few months ago, and it felt like webgl was dead slow compared to what I'm used to in opengl. But maybe it's not that bad actually :)

@simondev758 3 года назад

I'm guessing there's a lot of overhead since you're so removed from the driver, going through JS then IPC's to the gpu process, etc. I'd think, but have no proof, that code running on the gpu should be similar.

@DFPercush 3 года назад

You can access a canvas's draw context directly from web assembly without going through the JS boundary, so it's not quite as bad as you're thinking. But you're still basically using the smart phone version of OpenGL ES. Not the fastest API out there but it's ok for some stuff.

@stuntman3614 3 года назад

Awesome video, what tool you used to get a side by side comparison of assembly and cpp code? Thx

@simondev758 3 года назад

Near the end? There's a site, godbolt.org, let's you dump in some c++ code and see the compiled output for various compilers.

@kosnk 3 года назад

But wait! There's more: SIMD is coming to webassembly in chrome 91 (not JS, but might boost the ecosystem). Again, great video, Simon! Thanks

@simondev758 3 года назад

Oh seriously? Didn't see that, very cool.

@kosnk 3 года назад

@@simondev758 , afau, webassembly is still at its early stage, and will definitely improve in performance, abilities and dev experience. Also, there's an interesting project called AssemblyScript that compiles to wasm and looks similar to TypeScript -- quite fascinating.

@softwarelivre2389 2 года назад

@@kosnk AssemblyScript is pretty neat!

@Ibzann 3 года назад

this guys voice is really soothing

@kevinjohansson3923 3 года назад

Yeah, it's very very nice to listen to. Especially in today's overly expressive, borderline manic state most RU-vidrs present themselves in.

@wooooooongs 3 года назад

that’s simple

@TurtleKwitty 3 года назад

"You clearly havent shipped a game" optimization and language choice are far from the most important consideration when talking about completing projects, willingness to finish it is the most important and for some JS helps with that, its a fun language. You also mention that c++ has options, but you also have those options with js, you can go full wasm and even not use the dynamic types and go full typed if you needed to eek out more performance, theres always more to do if you really need it; JS will never be as fast as bare to the metal, but its so quick to write and work with its a viable tradeoff for many projects!

@circuit10 3 года назад

Isn't WebAssembly a completely separate thing? I guess it's a web technology that integrates with JS though

@Spartan322 3 года назад

JS to WASM, while likely a bit more performant, is still likely to lead to bottlenecks that JS would be in-optimal for complex and larger projects that need robustness, another issue a lot of these discussions tend to forget is that static typed systems (alongside a lot of proper compilation steps and static analyzers) exist to reduce and prevent bugs caused by dynamic typing systems and provide heavier and clearer optimizations, and since JS and its derived transpiled languages don't really address that (aside from maybe Dart, but even then I would be real hesitant to say that, Typescript does it the Python way, which bogs down the runtime immensely) you can easily achieve a point where JS will fail and harm your development where any statically typed language wouldn't have. Note as well that typed JS is relying on runtime typing which detracts from the runtime. Its not to so much JS is bad, but its more so unsuited to this purpose and its paradigms and nature make long term development and project management beyond an utter chore, increasing development time often for the sake of looking simpler. (or it could become more complex in trying to become reasonable and now you've defeated the whole point of using it) For this specific case it will be fine since its a demonstration, the problems crop up when relying on JS infrastructure and paradigms and start trying to use it for production projects.

@TurtleKwitty 3 года назад

@@circuit10 Think of it like writing a function in assembly and calling it from c++

@TurtleKwitty 3 года назад

@@Spartan322 Unless youre trying to argue that assembly isnt suitable for large projects then wasm isnt any less suitable. Except that static typing potentially helping for bugs isnt something being forgotten by those of us saying that js is perfectly suitable for many projects, its purely being forgotten by those that refuse to accept that js can be. Is JS perfect for everything? God no. But is it perfectly suitable for many things? If its your language of choice then hell yeah. I wouldnt expect every game dev in the universe to magically drop pygame because a rnadom person decided that python wasnt the most performant language in the universe, well same goes for js. Wouldnt expect anyone to make the next AAA hyper realistic full physics sim open world MMO or whatever in JS, but same goes for many other languages and tools that are used for making games anyways *shrug*

@simondev758 3 года назад

Yeah that was my favourite quote. So much anger in it, gave me goosebumps. Loved it hah.

@spacedoohicky 3 года назад

Will web assembly allow JS massaging as well? Though there already is some JS massaging with bitwise operators.

@openroomxyz 2 года назад

Love it!

@pinch-of-salt 3 года назад

Absolute legend!

@V972 Год назад

Huh. This surprised me. I'm also guilty of firmly sticking w/ "JS slow" because of prior experiences and general [outdated] opinion. However, these tests (as well as a small history course) shows that I'm wrong. And honestly, I'm glad to be wrong, I'm glad that JS is catching up even if it probably won't be able to fully do so (it's still good enough). Thank you for the video! You've been cropping up in my recommeded for while now and I haven't regretted a single video of yours that I watched. I think I'm gonna subscribe!

@mayuukhupadhyay6845 Год назад

Hello... Could you please tell me the user of backtick in javascript.. I've seen few places where inside backtick: c programming codes are written..

@nerdion1911 3 года назад

It would be really great if you compare NodeJS ES7/8 using async and C++ using async

@nowpro4604 3 года назад

Love your videos, great effort. Chapters would be nice if you were to skip the coding part or something

@juliankandlhofer7553 3 года назад

This shows the exact reason you should always do benchmarks. Many times the performance differences are not as big as you think! Great Video 👍 Also, the people hating on JS are probably the same people who then wonder why their Python code is slow 😁. V8 really is a miracle.

@NathanHedglin 3 года назад

Agreed. JS is mostly “bad” because of bad developers not because it’s inherently bad. V8 uses some crazy dark magic.

@Spartan322 3 года назад

Javascript's biggest issue, (when it comes to this type of stuff) least for the last decade, has been the typing problems and its scalability issues for large projects, its a nightmare to lack qualified types in multi-person projects and runtime type checking doesn't do well at dealing with this, the lack of a dedicated compilation step and fully qualified static analyzers also really hampers the development and increases bugs, both of which start to outweigh the ease of which JS development brings. Its also never really fair to compare simple tasks in two languages, those simple tasks could be optimized down for any number of reasons because of the specifics of the language or the manner in which you solve a problem in one language is so drastically different from another that to compare them becomes utter nonsense. In C/C++ you have pointers and memory management, (and for quite a while now, compile-time capable execution in C++) something you never can get in Javascript, and that so utterly redefines the way you do things that it really doesn't work to compare Javascript to C++. All this isn't to say JS is bad, but its a tool not exactly suited to this type of development outside of demonstration, as long as everyone understands that if you're doing this stuff yourself, you shouldn't be making production code in JS for this case, its otherwise irrelevant to address in my opinion.

@astrotecn 3 года назад

i think the hate comes from the fact that the js community is fucking retarded with tons of frameworks the language itself isnt bad, the ecosystem though is fucking cancer

@halofreak644 3 года назад

I'm getting into javascript but your knowledge as inspired me to go harder

@gilmoretj 3 года назад

Hi, I think it might be interesting to compare the performance of C++ against WebAssembly.

@colourfultoreador8467 3 года назад

Javascript is fast for a high-level coding language

@illford6921 3 года назад

@Вероника Заглотова but do you want to learn lisp, as a student I looked for languages, saw lisp and then avoided it. It seems a bit too time consuming and hard to learn. I'd rather learn Assembly because at least that's funny

@tomm.4447 3 года назад

@Вероника Заглотова ((((((((((())))())))))))))

@jeremycoleman827 2 года назад

Lol +1

@dealloc 3 года назад

Can highly recommend reading "Is WebAssembly magic performance pixie dust?" by Surma (a Web Advocate at Google). The article goes over compiling different languages (C, Rust, AssemblyScript) to WASM vs. idiomatic implementations in JS and running them in V8. It goes over some of the optimizations that V8 applies to JS and WASM through their compiler chain (there's a lot going on) and how in some cases JS can be much faster (and require less bundle size) than its WASM counterpart (without WASM bindings or Emscripten).

@simondev758 3 года назад

Thanks, I'll check it out!

@IronFreee Год назад

I love JS, it's fun to use. I made a few graphical web apps and small web games with it for fun, usually with a bunch of friends in a few days. I used a lot of Typescript professionally, mainly in Angular, but I often got frustrated by the framework limitations. I remember one time when the client was complaining about a pixel gap that could have been quickly solved in JS but was left because, with Angular, we couldn't do anything about it.

@syntaxerorr 3 года назад

interesting video. Thanks.

@tmvkrpxl0135 3 года назад

Could you enable auto generated subtitle? I am student learning English and I need it to understand it properly

@finnvictorsson 3 года назад

Your voice is relaxing

@onkarkotkar8294 Год назад

Ty I’m getting a computer soon and I’m gonna use

@astrahcat1212 Год назад

First thing to do in programming is access files locally and manipulate data. Without that I feel locked out.

@ozzyfromspace 3 года назад

Its not about how fast it is. It's about how you use it. Or something like that 😅😌🤓🏆

@rafaelmorales1926 3 года назад

Oh god I noticed your voice is somewhat similar to Creed Batton and now I can't unhear it

@simondev758 3 года назад

Man, someone said it sounded like H Jon Benjamin, now I'm binge watching Archer. I might have to watch the office next.

@chair547 3 года назад

One thing people Miss is that when it comes to optimization your code doesn't need to be as optimize as possible it needs to be optimized enough. What that means depends entirely on your circumstances. Sometimes JavaScript is too slow and you do need to go to C or even assembly. But sometimes is not all times and usually JavaScript is good enough

@BW022 3 месяца назад

In most modern applications, performance is typically IO bound. All programs inherently do three things -- read in data, process data, and output data. Modern machines are typically so far that the only parts you typically see an improvement is the middle section. If it takes five seconds to reach a SQL query and two seconds for something to render a graph on a screen, you typically have a (relative) lifetime in most cases to process the data before a user is going to notice something. Even JavaScript running on a browser typically spends 90% of it's time in an input loop. Whether it takes 30ms or 300ms to process the data probably won't be recognized. It takes some pretty specific applications these days before processing performance is really key. In most cases, you are better off optimizing the I/O, then your data structure/algorithm, etc. before having to look at a compiled language. Even then, such systems are typically on a knife's edge and you need to be considering hardware and other solutions. If an app needs to run five or ten times faster to be usable, you now have issues about older machines, other tasks running, etc. anyway.

@goonholiday656 3 года назад

Me as a JavaScript developer trying to understand what you said: “Yes”

@Cyberfoxxy 3 года назад

I think in C++ you can do performance optimizations that is simply impossible to do in JS. But then again, you rarely need that kind of performance. "Well what if you wanna update a million actors". Firstly, you don't, secondly: Batching, caching and only rendering nearby node (which you'd do anyway). Most the demands reside in physics and rendering. Just as a funny thought, i wonder if you can somehow perform calculations with CSS?

@simondev758 3 года назад

I actually have no idea what you can/can't do in css.

@okie9025 3 года назад

you can use the calc() function in CSS, but I doubt it's any better than just doing it in JS

@sunstar8893 3 года назад

You sound like death the perfect amount for this video. I love it.

@simondev758 3 года назад

I may have to print that quote out for my office.

@brianevans4 3 года назад

not really related, but I tried a speed test on Google Cloud Functions between Python, Go and NodeJs, and I was expecting Go to way outperform the others, but actually it was the slowest. I was mostly just testing the libraries in those languages by performing a simple database read and returning the result, since most API's are something along those lines. Python and Node were about half the response time of Go

@TheBigWazowski 3 года назад

Why would a database read be indicative of a languages performance? It sounds like you’re doing network I/O

@ArquimedesOfficial 3 года назад

One time i was on mac donalds and a bunch of kiddos comes and asked for "One Big Mac full with javascript and pickles" LOL.

@APsupportsTerrorism 3 года назад

Did you tell them the big mac isn't picklable? I'll get me coat ...

@mechap7612 3 года назад

Member functions defined in the class declaration are implicitely inlined

@simondev758 3 года назад

Oops nice catch!

@Taurdil 3 года назад

How much more memory JS versions were allocating you said? It has to be a part of the comparison, right?

@simondev758 3 года назад

I need to investigate memory usage in a follow-up.

@budabudimir1 3 года назад

`inline` is not a hint to actually inline anything. It is there to solve the problem of single definition rule, essentially allowing you to implement your functions in header files and telling linker to pick any impl, as they are all the same. Member functions are all inline by default.

@MrNispen 3 года назад

Im wondering if it would make a difference if you would run the code with nodejs instead of in the browser

@Soremwar 3 года назад

There are differences, but they are not that noticeable V8 is present in Chrome, Node and Deno. All of them optimize the operations between them and V8 to reduce the time in between, and that is how things in Deno for example are faster than in Node when using built-in APIs, but the same speed when running for loops I don't think any of the examples here would be faster in Node really, except perhaps the WebGL integration, I'd expect the browser to be faster there since that API is provided directly by them where as in Node, it's a third party library

@simondev758 3 года назад

I've done absolutely no research, but I'd guess that Steven is right in that it probably doesn't make a world of difference.

@tossajalumen401 3 года назад

i think this would be really interesting to see is there any difference between nodeJS and browser. What i tested by my self, i was getting totally different results, but i'm not a master of this kind of testing :D

@MrNispen 3 года назад

The reason I thought it could be different is that Nodejs is a application itself, while javascript in the browser runs sandboxed within another application. Also in the browser you run the javascript in 1 tab, and the browser is designed to (possibly) run alot of tabs at once, so maybe the resources per tab could be limited.

@jhyland87 3 года назад

I use to always hate coding in JS, because I liked doing the backend stuff and JS was mainly just the UI/UX stuff. But then NodeJS came out and now I love coding in it. I actually just got a job offer as a Sr. Full Stack Developer for NodeJS/MongoDB/AngularJS/etc at a bank. Pretty excited :-)

@A1rPun 3 года назад

Good luck on that offer my fellow coder!

@jhyland87 3 года назад

@@A1rPun thanks bud! Pending on the bg check - which makes me nervous... I have a colorful background and banks are strict. But I was an InfoSec engineer at PayPal and passed that bg check, so this should be ok.... Hopefully.

@DevlogBill 2 года назад

Keep creating video's using JavaScript, I enjoy your video's and I am pretty sure I am not the only one.

@phutureproof 4 месяца назад

The older I get in my career and life the less I want to attempt to flex my ignorance, sure Ive heard C++ is fast and I've heard JS can be slow, but as this video shows there is always going to be some situation where that is marginalised, or really not that important, and I wont look like an utter bellend by keeping my gob shut. Simon, you are a gift to us mortal coders looking to expand our knowledge, thanks so much.

@simondev758 4 месяца назад

Same, as I get older, it's really just whatever works for the situation I'm facing.

@phutureproof 4 месяца назад

@@simondev758 I'm hoping to grab your teachable pack on payday, I really enjoy how you talk about stuff, very calm. All the best 👍

@overloader7900 3 года назад

there is also -fwhole-program ,which, if all your code is in a single compilation unit(.cpp, through #include "*.cpp), may apply more aggressive optimisations about code that is never reached Also, -march= and -mtune= exist, profile based optimisations... Well, basically most of optimising c++ is playing with compiler flags, right?

@simondev758 3 года назад

I didn't try with whole program or PGO no, although I'm curious, since this was all a single cpp would whole program optimization do anything differently? I set -march but didn't set -mtune, wonder how much difference that would make. Actually, I'll try it now. Didnt change anything.

@overloader7900 3 года назад

Afaik, whole program optimisation is about visibility - it can better inline functions and cut unused code because of assuming that non-main, or not explicitly visible functions/variables wont be ever called/used on their own (which it sometimes doesn't with -flto, tried myself, the 67kb executable got to 65kb, so it definetly cut something)

@AmxCsifier 3 года назад

SimonDev: How Google: How old is queen Elizabeth *94 Years*

@exopolity 3 года назад

What you think about Rust (webassembly) with JS. Maybe some tests? Do you have any experience? It is good idea to connect this two technology in work? For example In React App ...

@simondev758 3 года назад

I really want to try Rust out, but no haven't had the chance yet.

@YannMetalhead 2 года назад

Good video.

@indycinema 3 года назад

Those comments were so unnecessarily aggro and miss the point that JS is what Web Devs already know and content on game patterns in C++ is already plentiful. It's helpful to see JS used using C++ idioms, instead of the framework nonsense that pervades webdev.

@simondev758 3 года назад

Pretty sure most of them were jokes, except for the middle one. But that one was great in its own way, so much anger heh. Loved it.

@kallehalvarsson5808 3 года назад

Not to mention the most obvious point - if you want to have a game that can run in the browser, then it's not like C++ is even an option. Either way, i always assumed that he used JS because of how forgiving and easy to read it is, which lends itself well to tutorials.

@DudeBronkster 3 года назад

@@kallehalvarsson5808 With web assembly, running C++ (or any other language that supports it as a compile target) in the browser is definitely an option. Many of the popular off the shelf game engines nowadays export to browsers, and they mostly compile to web assembly, not JavaScript.

@kallehalvarsson5808 3 года назад

@@DudeBronkster That is true, though last i worked with WASM, the support in some browsers (mainly Safari and Edge) was dodgy at best, maybe that has improved by now. But yes, you are perfectly right.

@lordxan1 Год назад

You forgot to mention what number of items you were processing. Also, the main issue with JS is that JS is a garbage-collected language so maybe on the low number of items it works fine but when we are talking in 10kk ranges it uses so much more memory and not to mention that JS does not have some basic features such as iterators

@simondev758 Год назад

I'd like to try to make a video about GC in JS at some point, see just how slow it is.

@Komeuppance Год назад

@@simondev758 The world needs a video from you about that, looking forward to it.

@agamer8127 3 года назад

From what I have to start coding and programming first?

@Viralvlogvideos 3 года назад

u desrver 1 million subs, can u please make a video on how to write optimize code for js. i saw that ur suggesting to use normal loop then map so i want to know more about it

@simondev758 3 года назад

I'd love to have 1M subs, but I'm super happy with what I've gotten already. Yeah I plan to dive a bit deeper into optimization in general.

@Viralvlogvideos 3 года назад

@@simondev758 js has so many features damn people go on updating it like people do with mobiles phones or gpus haha